Remember back when you didn't need a degree to get a good job?

[NNN0LHI]

I entered the work force in May of 1973. I graduated high school a month or so later. Had other part-time jobs before that but this was my first real job. The kind of job you could actually raise a family on. A good union job. While still in high school. Imagine that.

Back then top companies used to come to the schools to recruit students who were about to graduate right out of high school. For me it was while I was still in high school. The Ford people came into my shop class and recruited me. I built cars at night and went to school during the day.

The Ford plant I hired into had over 4000 employees at that time. Another thousand or so white collar workers on the other side of the wall for payroll and benefits. They even had hundreds of part-time employees who would just work on Mondays and Fridays. Even the part time employees made good money.

That plant I retired from now has less than 500 employees and they do minimal hiring. I know they don't come to the high schools to do any recruiting any more. Just the military does that now.

When someone asks me where all the jobs are I tell them they are in Japan and South Korea. They look dumbfounded. Then I point out all the Toyotas, Hondas and other cars that are either made entirely in those countries or the parts that used to be made here are now made there and are shipped over here to be assembled.

I tell them that is why there are no jobs for their kids any more.

Some get it. Some don't.

Don

[rosesaylavee]

1. I get it. And here's another gem that used to get passed around...

If you get a BA in liberal education you can get a good job. No need to specialize as all they need to know is that you have that slip of paper. Now I tell my son that he better get at least one masters degree to guarantee he has a few choices when looking for employment. At least one masters degree. Isn't it nuts? All that debt to get a job to pay off that debt.

[NNN0LHI]

2. After I passed the test to get into Skilled Trades and began my apprenticeship ...

... not only did Ford pay for the schooling and books they actually paid us our regular hourly rate for each hour we spent in school.

I don't think we have anything like that any more.

Don

[safeinOhio]

4. When I hired in at Ford

in 1972 the HR guy wanted to make sure I would stay working at Ford and not go back to complete my degree. I did go back part time a got my degree 2 years before I retired and can not get a part time job at a gas station now. That's ok, I can't afford a new Ford anymore either.

[NNN0LHI]

7. Lot of good jobs back then though wasn't there?

Out of the hundred or so people who hired in the same day I did I was the only one to retire from there. Most quit the first week. Some quit the first day. They just went across the street and got another job at one of the other factories around there that paid just about as well. All those other factories are gone now.

Don

[Go2Peace]

45. Yes, younger generations have never seen a strong economy. It's unfortunate

Because they naturally will expect less than is possible.

[Warren Stupidity]

3. A pell grant used to cover 75% of tuition, now it is less than 25%.

Student loans used to be just that: loans to students, not cosigned by their parents, cosigned by the federal government, with no interest until graduation and with highly subsidized interest rates after that.

We have allowed our masters to create a modern kleptocratic feudalism where the techno-peasants are tied in generational perpetuity to their masters by mountains of debt for education, housing and healthcare. Peace and Love! What a fucking joke.

[midnight]

10. Change this policy to return back to 75% grant money for financial aid.

[get the red out]

6. Is school a cover?

Is more and more advanced education a way of keeping young people out of the job market longer BECAUSE THERE ARE NO JOBS? That is the effect anyway, that thought just struck me, but you are correct, a person needs more and more degrees to do anything these days. The flip side of that is that people without any education are being made into a serf class. This society is getting sick fast on a diet of so-called "free trade".

[TicketyBoo]

22. My son graduated

from college in May with a B.S. in Computer Science. He has been working on a research project at the University since his graduation, but he hit the six-month point where they would have to give him health insurance, so they laid him off. He has applied for jobs from coast to coast with no replies forthcoming. The University told him if he would enter grad school, they could hire him as a student and not have to pay benefits, so he is headed back to work on his Masters. I'm thrilled that he's continuing his education, but not thrilled at the circumstances surrounding this development.

The absence of universal health coverage is keeping my son from getting a job.

[Go2Peace]

46. Good luck to your son. Computer Science is now a commodity. Stable jobs are scarce

[get the red out]

62. Yes, and he's being used

And the university gets to employee him without providing benefits, to their benefit. And universities are mild offenders where employment is concerned. Good luck to him. He deserves a lot better, like all young people who work so hard.

People have no idea how much better the employment situation in this country would be if we had universal health coverage. So sad how the brain washing has worked on people.

[NashVegas]

49. Certainly, It's a Way of Screening

Find someone who's rich enough to squander $100k on a specialized degree, which means they've got the contacts your business wants. Or find someone who's in that much debt - which means you can pretty much own them.

[elocs]

5. I've had a bachelor's degree for over 30 years and never had a good job that required it.

I've had some good jobs, but nothing that ever required a college degree. I've also quit more good jobs than many people have ever had in the first place.

[pampango]

8. Did Mao have something to do with that? He was good at keeping the Chinese poor and out of

the world economy. If his successor had stuck to his brand of "pure" communism, we might be much better off (if not the Chinese people).

For 30 years after WWII we exported stuff all over the world without much competition. Our planes, tractors, bulldozers, food, etc were exported everywhere. Even if we had somehow kept China (and Europe and Japan and others) out of our market, they would be exporting to the rest of the world that used to buy our stuff.

[SmileyRose]

11. I never thought of that

WW2 did cripple the manufacturing capacity of pretty much the entire developed world except the US. I really want to thank you for posting those 4 lines of text. You gave me a lightbulb moment -- the reason why I absolutely LOVE the DU.

[anigbrowl]

60. +1,000

Not to belittle anyone who entered the workforce earlier, but the US had an extraordinarily favorable industrial and commercial environment for several decades after WW2. Bear in mind that the rest of the developed world was experiencing the equivalent of 9/11 on a daily basis for extended periods during WW2. Go to Google news and search on 'unexploded bomb ww2'. They turn up during construction or archaeology every few weeks...65 years later. Just think about how many were being dropped at the time; saturation bombing was the preferred tactic because it was the most consistently reliable. The time needed to rebuild all this devastation was time the US could use to improve its industrial base and gain a huge lead in productivity and trade.

Reaganism qua economic policy had a lot to do with the ending of that industrial dominance, as did the rise of OPEC and the increased competition for resources etc., but that's not the whole story. A combination of huge industrial capacity, zero war damage, and a demographic bulge provided US industry with an incredibly fortunate combination. The problem is that a lot of people got into thinking that being in a leading position equated to intrinsic superiority and that competitive threats didn't need to be taken seriously.

[D-Lee]

9. So true! nt

[dem mba]

12. economies change

what's so odd about that? labor needs change from generation to generation. technology evolves, businesses adapt, people move to San Francisco to mine gold, to Detroit to build cars, to Seattle and Silicon Valley to program computers.

Same as it ever was.

[Mari333]

14. corporations changed , Reagan, NAFTA, greedy assholes

they merged and took their Raygun tax breaks and ran to Mexico, China, India, and every country they could find to get slave labour to make their goods whilst unions were being busted left and right over here.

and they got away with it, and are still getting away with it. Even Clinton was stupid enough to back it up.

the small mom and pop companies ended, and the huge multinationals took over.

its serfs and kings now.

But by using slave labour to make their lousy products, the corporations have lost their customer base.

Idiots.

[Go2Peace]

47. Yes, but we don't have to have low expectations, we have evidence it can be much better

[Mari333]

13. I remember.

knr

[Hepburn]

15. What I have noticed:

During my mother's "seeking employment era," some of the help wanted ads required a HS diploma. During the same time period for me, the vast majority required this level of education.

Now? Take a look ~~ many want a college degree, they don't even discuss a HS diploma.

[Chan790]

24. It's an unpopular issue of basic economics...

Scarcity and function alone determine value. Same as any other commodity. Not qualification, not skillfulness, not intelligence really...just basic laws of demand. There are now more people with a college degree than there are jobs which should legitimately require one. The value has been degraded and is compounding as degraded degrees are degrading the quality of higher education at this point.

A HS diploma had value 30 years ago because only about 70% of the population had one, most jobs actually required that level of skill and there were not enough to go around. There were many fewer people still with college degrees and that made those people very very valuable...my mother dropped out less than halfway to her degree and was advised for that she could more-or-less have her field of trades as she was more educated for 1973 than about 85% of the population. Now 39% of the population has a Bachelor's degree or higher and more than 70% of all adults have some college experience. As the number of both HS diplomas and college degrees rose, both were devalued by reduced-scarcity. We began to see requirements creep upward not to match increased job-skills requirements but because a HS diploma not longer served as a good metric of attainment educationally and because if the previous job-holder had a college degree then the expectation became that you did not want to "downgrade" by hiring a HS graduate. (even if the job was something simple like taking diction or ringing purchases at Macy's.) We began to undermine the very premises of some social programs...Montgomery GI was not invented to bring military personnel to the level of the average American but to provide veterans with a significant educational advantage over the rest of the population by giving them the opportunity to obtain for free what almost nobody else had...a college degree.

At the same time, more and more people began to prepare for the idea that they would send their child to college to give them an advantage over the rest...that's basic Social Darwinism in action. So, we saw an explosion of college graduates. At the same time, we saw a degradation of college standards as many many more colleges sprung up to meet increased demand and the acceptance-pool began to dip deeper and deeper towards mediocrity of enrollees. I talked a few days ago at great length about my parents' story and how they basically worked themselves into what will be early graves to insure that I never had to work in a factory. Truth be told, I'd be better off if I had not gone to college direct from HS as I was rather immature and my HS and college grades reflect that quite well. I don't know how many commercial bankers who quote Proust and Sartre, won minor literary awards as an undergraduate, won a national parliamentary debate championship and can do calculus without a calculator graduate with a C- average? Point is I'm smart but was not mature enough to be there. If I'd waited 3 years I'd have been an A student...I do A-student work now in my graduate programs. I probably could have done A-student work then if I hadn't spent most of my time in a bottle or a bong.

You want to fix this problem, accept the dirty reality...if we really want to index training level to actual required job skill, then we have to abandon this notion that everybody who wants one is entitled to a college degree. Push trade-based education as an alternative...I haven't had a good plumber in years and even if we brought back the manufacturing jobs we don't have a work-force capable of doing that work anymore. It's ultimately not good for us that this many people have college degrees as it is. I look around and I'm underwhelmed by my cohort...most of these people (I'm 30 BTW so that gives you an idea of that cohort) don't have the basic reading, writing and math skills to have legitimately passed HS...but almost all of them have a college degree. I have a college degree and upon a second reading, I found 15 typos in my undergraduate thesis. No professor ever should have let that fly. When the number of students was lower and the value of an education was higher, no professor would have.

Radical egalitarianism has broken the system.

[Go2Peace]

50. Whenever the market is good requirements are lowered. Look at the late 90s in IT. No degree required

Just look at the requirements on a typical IT job right now, they want you to be an expert at practically every technology out there, and they don't want to do any training. The reality is that there are few college educated people with that kind of experience. But because the market is so tight, it is a way to lower the flood of applications and they can hope to actually get someone with a close level of background.

Now, look at the end of the 90's, when the IT market was hot you were able to make $40k simply if you had some aptitude in the field. And many companies even paid and trained you in additional technologies.

In this economy nobody is doing that.

I always love it when I see the globalists claiming they have to hire only those with the highest qualifications from out of the country. It was amazing how we grew a HUGE industry, and quite successfully, on our homegrown and half of which came from other specialties. Industry did just fine, and many people had good paying jobs.

[NashVegas]

52. Great Post

There's a lot of truth there that few want to accept. Many modern college grads have "me, too" degrees that are little more than vocational training with English 101 thrown in for good measure. I have a co-worker who got a degree in Entrepreneurship. His goal is to open and run a night club.

[Hepburn]

63. Your points are excellent ~~ thank you for the reply.

What I have seen ~~ former teacher and retired attorney ~~ is that bringing education to the masses has cheapened diplomas and degrees.

My mother had a bachelors and a masters degree ~~ earned prior to 1950 ~~ at a state University. She was thought of as an oddity. Now...a woman with a bachelors and a masters? Nothing unusual. I have a bachelors, a masters and a J.D. And...I know other women in my field and other fields who have also done the hat trick.

I totally support vocational eduction. There are skills in today's world that do not need a 4-year degree as a basis for performing that skill. There are talented carpenters, tailors, house painters, etc., who would not have any greater skills on the job market due to a BA or a BS. If someone wants education for the love of it and mind growth ~~ that is wonderful. But to require that someone with other skills have a bachelors just to remove applicants from the job market? Bull.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

67. no, we should have government funding of basic research.

In 2993, Congress killed all funding for the Superconducting Supercollider to be built near Waxahachie, Texas (S. of Fort Worth).

That meant that all basic research in physics and space would be done by Europe and Japan and the US would fall behind. That supercollider would have employed a helluva lot of physicists and engineers, and helped the economy of Texas. Now CERN in Switzerland does that kind of research and gets the benefits of attracting talent.

Lots of people have said "Well just go apply at NASA Mission Control in Houston". Well, they can't employ all the skilled engineers and programmers.

[alarimer]

16. Define "good."

Yes those jobs paid okay but they were mind-numbingly boring, leading to a mind-numbing existence in the boring suburbs surrounded by other boring people. The very thought of it makes me want to scream.

I went to college because I wanted a CAREER, not just a job being a cog in someone else's machine. College is and should be more than vocational training. It is a time for intellectual exploration, something that will not happen if you have some boring-ass factory job with no future. It is also a time to have a little fun before 'setting down" (something no one should ever do in my opinion- enough with the stultifying suburban life), meet people you would otherwise never meet. The more education one has, the more liberal they tend to become. Education, like travel, broadens the horizons. In my opinion, that is the most important function of education. Sure, you can read all the books you want on your own but it is not the same thing at all.

[NNN0LHI]

18. Good is being able to support my family with one paycheck

I had friends who wanted to shoot for the stars rather than just getting a good job and get on with the business of raising a family.

Most of them are either dead or in prison.

No matter what your "career" is you are still a cog in someone else's machine. You either just don't know it or are afraid to admit it.

Meeting interesting people never put food on the table.

Don

[reggie the dog]

20. who cares if it is mind numbing

lots of folks want just that, easy low strees mind numbing work with a nice salary.

[anonymous171]

37. "Good" as in "able to pay for a house, 1 car, and enough food for a family of 4." nt

[dysfunctional press]

58. "The more education one has, the more liberal they tend to become. "

if that's true, then with the attitude displayed in your first sentence, it sounds like you could still use quite a bit of educating.

[FatDave]

77. I love boring work.

And the more repetitive the better. I get paid to daydream.

[StarfarerBill]

17. You can rarely get a job *with* a degree, anymore.

Nor does experience count for much. This recession is hurting everyone save its creators, the uber-wealthy.

[MountainLaurel]

21. Exactly what I was thinking

In fact, experience hurts you, because it means that they have to pay you more than they would someone just out of school.

[StarfarerBill]

27. Yep.

As an architectural drafter with almost 25 years of experience, I wonder how many times I've been passed over for a someone fresh out of architectural school.

[reggie the dog]

19. I am 30

I never remember it being easy to get a good job even with a master's degree......

[Go2Peace]

53. It's unfortunate, it was not always like that. We haven't had a good economy is many years.

Most of the younger generation don't know how good it can be. They have hoodwinked your generation so that many will have low expectations.

[FatDave]

78. Seems to me our economy was dead by the 80's.

By the time I was finishing school in '88, factory jobs weren't even a consideration. There were a few left, but they weren't hiring. Most of them have closed by now.

[MilesColtrane]

23. Not really, but I remember when a bachelor's degree was enough....

to get a good job.

My dad supported a wife and two kids in solid middle class fashion on a job he got with a bachelor's in chemical engineering. (paid for by the G.I. bill)

I don't know if that's possible these days.

[Chan790]

25. It's not.

I hear there used to be a time when Monty GI put the average veteran ahead of the pack on job attainment, now that's simply not true. They're as screwed as the rest of us.

[ddeclue]

26. Remember when having a college degree guaranteed you a good job?

Not even THAT will save you any more.

I've been unemployed about 7 months out of the last 24 months due to the crappy economy in spite of having an engineering degree from Georgia Tech, 17 years experience and a wide variety of marketable skills. I'm currently about to start a new job after two weeks of lay-off but I attribute the new job to random luck.

I have at least 5 friends with college degrees who are unemployed and several more who have left Florida to find work elsewhere in spite of having engineering degrees.

Florida has an 11% unemployment rate (officially) and Michigan is at 16.5% (officially).

Realistically the unemployment rate is much higher when underemployment and discouraged workers get counted.

[BreweryYardRat]

65. Amen. I'm in Florida too -- finishing off my (English) degree.

When even the science/math degrees are struggling, it means everyone else is FUCKED.

Getting the hell out of here as soon as I graduate.

[rucky]

28. I see less of a correlation between degree and job nowadays.

They seem to care mostly about direct work experience.

[Taitertots]

29. I don't remember

Of course I'm in my twenties. I graduated into the Bush years. Couldn't get a job at the good factories. Paid out of pocket to cover community college to get certified in welding and an associates degree in manufacturing trades. Couldn't get a good union factory job. Got a business associates degree. This was followed by the depression. Soon I expect to have an economics BA, and there is even less chance that I'll be able to find a better job.

Detroit coming to a city near you.

[Johonny]

30. I think part of it is "modernization"

My work use to have tons of high school level support staff. The ratio of support staff to white collar worker was nearly 1 to 1. The personal computer pretty much wiped that out. The companies believe they can remove support staff because the "computer" has made typing etc obsolete. Sadly this isn't true at all. Companies now pay their white collar staff to make travel arrangements, type up reports, fill in time sheets, change light bulbs, vacuum floors, machine parts etc. They now pay their highly trained technical staff to do their lower pay support jobs that high school degree people use to do in the 70s. They call this complete waste of productivity modernization and pretend it saves them money.

[branders seine]

31. and now you can't get a job *with* a degree

[Boxerfan]

32. Whatever happened to shop class.Or the auto tech programs?

I don't see them in the high schools much nowadays. Trade programs gave the kids who didn't take to schooling well a place to excell. At least that the way I felt.

We need tariffs bottom line. Make it here or price it so the labor value is equivelant. I don't mind paying a fair price for a product that doesn't disolve in a few weeks or poison my family-Seriously. This is what we accept when we take the lowest common denominator & apply it worldwide via international trade.

I have to believe there is a wide range of jobs for people to fix things- but very few schools are providing any help for those careers.

[Go2Peace]

55. Actually those are good paying fields right now. Mechanics make good money

Electricians and Plumbers have had a great run.

LOL, remember when painters used to be unionized? That used to be a great field as well if you were in the union.

[Boxerfan]

70. Depends a lot on the area...In the PNW most shops pay 13-15 an hour at best

In the SF bay area minimum start pay was in the 20's.I was fairly shocked at the pay cut when I moved to Portland Oregon. Dealership tech's can still make that but it is getting rarer. Also a lot of the shops pay "flat rate" wich means if you don't bill hours-or the weather is shitz & no one comes in for service-you loose.That motivates the tech's to sell work that may not really be needed etc...Hated it.
Edited to add-Auto tech's also have a lot of expensive tools to buy. I had almost 60K in my set when I stopped buying 'em. Lost my arse selling the fancy stuff I'll never use again-Oh well.But they really pay a low wage up here for a highly skilled trade where your own tools are required.Most shops don't cover training anymore also....

I tore up my arm & have a partial disability payment. In my sparetime I'm learning how to make small parts on a mini lathe to profit from my hobby. I hope to get good enough to make an actual product soon. But of course start up coin is always an issue.But I'm staying busy!

[DU GrovelBot]

33. ## PLEASE DONATE TO DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND! ##

This week is our fourth quarter 2009 fund drive. Democratic Underground is
a completely independent website. We depend on donations from our members
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[ddeclue]

42. Please donate so Grovelbot can get a college degree and a good job!

:D

[EFerrari]

34. I worked as an "0" operator when I was 19 or so.

CWA job with decent benefits.

That job doesn't exist any more.

[Go2Peace]

56. Working in a warehouse used to be a middle class job.

[EFerrari]

64. Yep. My first husband was working in a warehouse while I was at ATT.

They weren't union there but he had health insurance. That's so 1975.

[quaker bill]

35. Not here

but then there were and still are very few factories of any sort about.

[johnnie]

36. I don't have a degree

I graduated high school in 1983 (barely, school and I didn't get along) and I started in a scaffold manufacturing plant within a few months. I them became an electrical lead for a book binding company until they were bought out and moved. I didn't go because they were trying to break a union.

I then started work at a company building control panels. That was in 1992. About a year into that I moved to the front office and became a cad operator and about a year later became an engineer.

I was an engineer for that company until last September when I took a job as a technician at NASA. I didn't like sitting behind a desk. So yeah, I remember whet it is like.

[tilsammans]

38. I got great jobs for 20+ years without a degree

Finally got an Associate's in 2002, while working about 60 hours/week.

Now I'm out of work, and my degree and all that hard work and experience ain't gettin' me jack shit. :rant:

[blues90]

39. Yes I remember well.

I was working every school summer vacation from age 7 that was 1956 for my father building houses , just the two of us.

I then went to many different jobs after 1966 , the telephone comapny installing phones and they taught you on the job. Two weeks with another guy and off on your own , call in if you run into a problem.

By 1973 since my BIL worked at ford dealerships with a union I for some insane reason felt it is either carpentry of auto repair.

I did many jobs before that and all offered on the job training.

All you needed was a high school education.

Now I cannot get a job at any dealership even though I know fords inside out and was a shop foreman and service manager.

[WeCanWorkItOut]

40. I like the idea of people getting the job skills while working somewhere on the job

The question is, could that system still work?

One problem is that in the 70s, the auto industry had
more stability and higher profits.

Another problem is that we've made it too easy
for other industries to off-load education onto the tax-payer
and the parents.

I agree that better high school prep would help. However,
the advantage of on-the-job training is that it works
for those who are out of high school.

[ddeclue]

43. The reason that the auto industry had more stability and higher profits

was that there was a well educated stable middle class work force that could afford to buy their products back then. Not so much now because we let Reagan and the GOP gut the unions and kill workers rights and allow all these mergers and job offshoring.

The solution is simple - Reverse the Reagan "Revolution".

[varelse]

41. That time was long gone when I entered the work force

It took my parents years (nah - decades) to figure out that things weren't working out the same way for their childrens' generation. :(

[ddeclue]

44. My parents are only starting to grasp that notion.

My father was a career NCO in the Army followed by a second career as a GS civillian at the DOD.

My mom worked for a series of banks until she retired.

They are both Republicans and never understood how life is in the real world because of their gov't pension, etc. until recently.

Doug D.

[uppityperson]

48. I don't and am your age. Had crap jobs until graduated college

I remember though when having a college degree meant you could probably get a decent job.

[NNN0LHI]

54. Back then the only people I can remember going to college were going to be professional people

Doctors, lawyers, dentists, engineers, veterinarians, chemists, etc. I don't remember any of the people I graduated with going to college for anything other than those kinds of professions. I am sure there were some others. I probably just don't remember any.

Don

[bvar22]

51. Remember when almost anyone....

...could attend a State University and graduate DEBT FREE if they were willing to work a part-time job?



If we had a Political Party that represented the Working Class, we could do that again.

Great Idea...A Political Party that represents the Working Class!

Anybody want to start one?

[pitohui]

57. no, i'm female

there were no good jobs available to me w/out a degree, and w. a degree it turned out i was still expected to give head or something as sexual harassment wasn't illegal until the late 1980s

i've never had a shot at a good job and have lived my life as essentially unemployable

i sympathize w. you guys to a certain extent, until i remember that no one, NO ONE, ever sympathized with or helped me because i was unwilling to sleep w. somebody because "hey, i have a degree, i shouldn't have to do that"

how many of those "good jobs" were available because there was a limited pool of job applicants, since a woman, person of color, or (as you say yourself) south korean would never be considered...

of course you are going to be paid less when there's more competition but what about those of us who weren't ever paid anything at all? were we supposed to sit down, shuddup and do without forever?


i think we have to accept that we live in a post job world, there are too many people, too few jobs, we need to have another way to be sure that people get their needs met because everybody no matter how badly they want to, everybody CAN'T work, it just can't happen

[NNN0LHI]

59. Half the people who hired in with me on that day in May were female

I am not sure what your point is? Did you think Ford didn't hire females? The current plant manager is a woman who hired in about the same time as me.

Don

[pitohui]

71. you don't know the point of my post? really? and you were around in the 1970s?

that one day in 1978 when we were equal wasn't enough to feed me for a lifetime, sorry

that's the point of my post

there was never a day when i could get a good job w.out a degree and there have been damn few days when i could get a good job WITH a degree

and it is because i'm a woman who doesn't give head to strangers, who entered the workplace before sexual harassment was made illegal, nothing deeper than that


i'm glad ONE WOMAN became a plant manager at ford, but it wasn't going to be me, because i wasn't born to the right dad, marry the right husband, or suck the right you-know-what

in the real world, in that era, and going forward for many years into the future, women didn't have the same opportunities, and if you didn't have a college degree, you'd better pucker up, if you did have one...you still had to mud wrestle with all the other women who married, fucked, or were born to the right man

if you don't know what i'm talking abt, ask your wife, daughter, or mother, because THEY know

i'm sorry you are facing the same issues I'VE FACED MY WHOLE LIFE, so why don't we unify instead of taking a negative "i hate south koreans, i hate japanese" bullshit line? believe me, i can read between the lines, and the person who doesn't want to compete with south koreans didn't want to compete with women either

the world is what it is, there are too many people in the world, and we live in a POST JOB environment

if you want to yell at me for pointing out the obvious what can i do?

maybe if we'd had equal rights for women (something we STILL don't have in the usa constitution) then i wouldn't be so bitter but i have never enjoyed what you at least enjoyed for a couple decades, i never enjoyed it for one minute


that's my point

and unfortunately in the real world the folks i've met who blame the booga booga japanese/south koreans/black guys for taking their job hate women just as much, the only difference is since i'm a woman they boldly say it to my face -- t hey would never dare to say their thoughts to a black man to his face (and they've never met a south korean)

[NNN0LHI]

72. So you are saying every woman who made it had to have the right daddy or sucked some you know what?

Another woman couldn't have done it on her own because you couldn't? And then you accuse me of hating Japanese and Korean people when I say that the jobs available here in America when I entered the workforce are now over in those countries?

You are a sick puppy.

Don

[LiberalEsto]

61. I became a newspaper reporter

when I was still an undergrad in 1972.
They hired me because I had experience writing for my home town weekly and for the college newspaper. I earned a whopping $80 a week -- it was a part time job.

[Political Heretic]

66. No. I don't. I'm 32 :(

[Manifestor_of_Light]

68. I had a good job with a two year degree.

In court reporting (stenography). It was a program where we were told that only 3 out of every 200 hundred students would finish and get licensed, and only one out of 200 would actually make a living at it.

I was one of those who worked at it and made straight A's.

However, I was screamed at a lot and hassled by nasty lawyers, nasty judges, and even nasty court reporters. I had grievances filed against my by disgtruntled lawyers who were pissed at me. That meant I had to go to a hearing in Austin, and hire a lawyer to represent me, just because some pwoer hungry lawyer wanted to destroy me for no reason. A district judge (known for tormenting her DAs, her clerks, her bailiffs, her court reporters, everyone who works for her) lied to a meeting of district judges and told them that I was not to be hired and that I was incompetent. I couldn't do a damn thing because of sovereign immunity. She is now the Harris County D.A.

I was burned out by the time I was 35, and started doing it at 22. I got to where I hated the legal profession and could hardly go to work. My job disappeared when they stopped hiring substitutes back in 1994. I later looked for a job as a legal assistant (BA in biology and Juris Doctor) but got one interview in two years of looking. This was with the assistance of my law school's employment office.

I got a BA thirty years ago and i was told they needed high school science teachers. I had a degree fvrom the best pre med school in the state and couldn't get a job teaching science, so I decided they really didn't mean that when they said it.

Also my law degree never helped me get anywhere, it is just a millstone on my resume.

[Cleita]

69. I remember when you didn't need a degree to get a lowly job.

Today many companies are demanding degrees even if you are working on the loading dock.

[mzmolly]

73. Indeed I do. And, I rememember my Mother foolishly tauting this

as a rationale for not being able to send her children to college.

[SheWhoMustBeObeyed]

74. I have no degree and I was a VP

Advanced to middle management, admittedly more slowly than college grads, but there were other factors that affected my career path. Frankly, someone like me couldn't make it now the way I did then. When I look back I'm torn between thinking I was either really good at what I did, or I musta just scared people into eventually giving in to my demands. lol. Probably some of each.

[Kat45]

75. I do. But now you can't get a good job even with a degree.

I've been out of work since January and I've barely had any interviews. I notice that most job ads want a degree, and in many cases a degree is not necessary for the job. When I was younger, office work (called secretary then, called administrative assistant now) were the kind of jobs for the girls who didn't go to college. Now, they require college before they'll even talk to you. And even though I have a masters degree, those have been the only jobs I've been able to get in recent years. Now that the job market/economy is in the toilet, I can't even get those jobs. I did finally get a job but it's a life-sucking part time telephone customer service job, nights until midnight.

These days, companies do not want to do any on-the-job training. They want the person to be an expert in every and any task that they might have to do in the job. They want their new employee to hit the ground running from day one. Even the jobs that say they are training you are really just giving you an overview of the company and job--all the information at once before you are settled enough to take it in. Then you're on your own to teach the job to yourself--and if you haven't got it all figured out in a month, you're gone!

Where the heck is today's WPA and CCC? We need them, and we need them now!

[The Midway Rebel]

76. Yes, I do...

It was the late 70's. The Ma Bell phone companies, electricians, Western Electric, ITT, AT&T, 3M, IBM, MCI,GM, Ford, US Steel, TWA, Hallmark cards, Guys Potato Chips -- all were in the KC area hiring kids straight out of high school and paying living wages.

[NeoGreen]

79. I'm about 45 days from turning 45, and No, I don't remember...

such a time. Until now.

Since I was old enough to understand, my parents and extended family have always preached the gospel of college.

The validity of the sermon was driven home after my father (with no degree) was unemployed in '82 and '83 (my junior and senior years in HS).

So, I doubled down and got a masters, after a 4-year stint in the AF so that I may have some funds to pay for the gamble.

I rode it pretty well for awhile. Sixteen years straight in private industry, working up the ladder, and making decent money (65K in my last year after a mid-year promotion). Yeah, it was good, I worked hard (not insanely hard but honest hard) and was rewarded. That is until the bill for 30-years of trickle down came due. I lost my job in August, and have had not one interview for anything that I'm not significantly overqualified for. The jobs no longer exist.

My unemployment case manager has said plainly, he will not be able find a job for me. He doesn't have the tools to find jobs for people with my level of experience and education.

So, maybe now were back to where you can find a good job with only a HS education. Since those seem to be the only jobs around. And if those jobs are the only jobs that are available, then they are the good jobs.

Shop at Walmart? Work at Walmart. Pay the overlord tithe and die quickly.