Six held in gang rape of West Philadelphia woman - dragged from restaurant

[RamboLiberal]

Police tonight are holding six males, ranging in age from 16 to 52, all charged in the assault of a young woman they dragged out of a Chinese take-out in West Philadelphia, and then gang-raped inside a nearby apartment.

The attack ended only after people heard the woman's screams and called 911. Police arrested all six at the scene, an apartment across from Li Lai Chinese restaurant at 5609 Walnut St.

Police said the attack happened late Thursday night.

The 24-year-old victim was inside Li Lai Chinese about 10:45 p.m. when the group - who had watched her walk into the restaurant - entered and quickly set upon her, according to Philadelphia police spokesman Lt. Frank Vanore.

They began to fondle her, and grabbed her and dragged her into a first-floor apartment across the street, Vanore said.

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/breaking/20091120_Six_held_in_gang_rape_of_West_Philadelphia_woman.html

I want to know why the F someone working at the restaurant didn't call. What a bunch of pigs and my apology to 4-legged swine.

[Captain Hilts]

1. Swine are smarter than those guys. nt

[Nuclear Unicorn]

2. This planet is insane.

[cliffordu]

3. They should have been executed on the spot.

My fucking god.

[flvegan]

4. 10:45 pm? Was she the only person there?

People that don't intervene (that are able) or at least call the cops and follow are nothing but cowards. And I hope the 6 alleged crims rot in prison if found guilty.

[Shell Beau]

5. I just wonder how this could've happened. That is so scary.

[HopeHoops]

6. Denny's I can see - but a Chinese take out? WTF?

That just doesn't make any sense.

[seabeyond]

13. you can see a group of guys dragging a woman out of dennys? that works for you?

hm

they saw her, wanted her and took her

[HopeHoops]

16. Well, that's Denny's for you.

At least it beats Burger King.

[Berry Cool]

67. I'm sure glad you can joke about rape.

What would we be in DU without our wags who jump into rape threads to crack jokes? :puke:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

70. Actually, that's a joke about Denny's.

But I agree with you. Jokes about Denny's ARE NOT FUNNY!

[malaise]

51. And the restaurant workers did not call the police?

Strange

[msanthrope]

68. Joking about rape. You fail. On sooooo many levels. n/t

[kentuck]

7. gang mentality happens with gangs..

Stop gangs.

[Canuckistanian]

8. Yeah, but a 52-year old gang member?

Something else is going on here.

[BeachBaby]

21. There is no mention of this group being a gang.

The story is being widely covered here where I live.

There are too many of this type of situation, ie., a bunch of guys from the same high school football team will rape a girl. They aren't part of a "gang".

[MattBaggins]

34. This may in fact be worse

It isn't just in gangs that this sort of thing happens.

I hate this shit because I am a guy. I hate it because I spent ten years in the Army. I hate because I have seen that ugly monster that can rise up in men. I hate knowing what seemed like good men; who did some really heinous acts.

I have never been involved in such hateful acts, and never would do such a thing, but knowing we as men have some serious monsters deep in us actually torments me.

[BeachBaby]

35. I agree with you. It is worse.

Instead of us being able to sum this up to some sort of sick gang initiation, these were, instead, 6 men who individually decided to do this together.

[MadMaddie]

65. Here is the reality it's gangs like this that ordinary citizens

have to be on alert for....this is the argument that should be used against the Republican Fear of Terrorist mantra....

They better charge that 16 year old as an adult and then prosecute all of them and throw away the key.

[madmom]

9. WTF!!!!

[MattBaggins]

10. Can we get an ambush questioning of Stupak on this?

Really look him in the eye and ask him if this woman or the poor girl that was raped at the high school dance; ought to be allowed access to RU-486 as a treatment option at the hospital. Should they even at a minimum be allowed to have the choice and make it for themselves?

I know that's gotcha journalism. We don't actually ask for answers on real life situations in "polite" society. We thump our chests and talk in platitudes, one liners and bible quotes. To actually ask a public figure to answer about the impact on real life people is boorish and unsophisticated.

This one is for the "big picture", Stupak apologists to chew on. If you get real close to your misty, magical "big picture"; this is what you find staring you in the face.

[Alcibiades]

69. That's a great idea

Folks should write letters to their local newspapers about this. Especially if they live in Stupak's district.

I'd say that they should call him, but he plainly does not care about the women of this country.

[JonQ]

11. That is so bizarre

That they were able to do this in public and get away with it for so long.

[seabeyond]

12. we are becoming a nation of animals. and those of your the justify sexual impulses as we are just

animals....

no we are not

but that is what these people were, and the new meme of today. get what you ask for.

free game once a female hits puberty

[emilyg]

23. +10

[paulsby]

25. not really

violent crime is SIGNIFICANTLY down and has been in a downward trend for years. so, apart from rhetoric and "if it bleeds it leads" journalism, there's no justification to say we are becoming a nation of animals. we are a nation with far LESS crime per capita than we had in the past (the 80's for instance), and the fact thatr violent crime has been going down, and has gone down so much, is not consistent with us "becoming a nation of animals"

[Imajika]

31. Your exactly correct...

"violent crime is SIGNIFICANTLY down and has been in a downward trend for years"

Somehow people don't seem to get this fact, and it is a fact.

Violent crime is DOWN and has been on a downward trajectory for quite some time now.

We are NOT becoming a nation of animals.

The information age, the internet, the quick flow of information and pictures, all contribute to making people believe society has become more violent and more dangerous, when in fact the opposite is largely true.

[paulsby]

37. exactly

your last sentence sums it up perfectly. if media never reported crime rates, nearly everybody would think crime rate is skyrocketing. now, even though the crime rate info is out there, and is occasionally reported on news, etc. there are STILL many people who make the connection between what they see in the news and some sort of national trend. one of the bad things about 24 hr cable news cycles and the internet is that there is a lot of sensationalism, bias, and stuff that will lead you astray. one of the great things is if you keep a level head, and really look for answers, they are readily available like never before.

[JonQ]

39. Apparently all it takes to condemn a nation is a single act

of barbarism. Well, only if that nation is the US. If this were say saudi arabia and anyone were to call them animals oh boy that person would be banned PDQ.

[seabeyond]

44. right jonq, just a single act......nt

[JonQ]

48. You made the determination based on one incident

not based on statistics which clearly show that your assessment is wrong.

It was an emotional, not rational response on your part.

[seabeyond]

50. no, i did not make the determination based on one incident. but consistent with your form

of argument, you make up the argument then off you go. not needing any one else to participate.

do you get what i said. so it is not continually repeated by you.

i
did
not
determine
off
ONE
incident.

[JonQ]

55. You said we are "turning in to a nation of animals"

based on facts crime is going down. How do you reconcile what you said with reality? If we are in fact getting better, then how can you claim we are getting worse?

[paulsby]

54. american exceptionalism is perfectly acceptable

as long as it's a NEGATIVE american exceptionalism.

on any given day, tally up the # of posts and threads where the US is the bad one, (and all those european countries are enlightened and so much better). tons of these

you will almost never see a post where somebody uses american exceptionalism in the opposite direction... iow, we are BETTER than (various euro countries, etc.) . THAT is unacceptable. it's jingoistic, nationalistic, etc.

it's really an amazing double standard.

you are right in that i can't even imagine somebody saying "france is becoming a nation of animals" or any other enlightened country, and don;'t even consider saying that about mexico, which has a murder rate that is insanely out of control. if you said mexico had become or is a "nation of animals" you'd be called a racist 100 times over.

it really is a fascinating double standard

[JonQ]

61. Or . .

recently there was a post about somalia sentencing a woman to death by stoning for adultery. This is terrifyingly common, and enshrined in to their "legal" system.

At no point did anyone call somalia a "nation of animals" and if they had then they certainly would have been banned.

And yet that is far more common over there than gang rapes are here, and it is apparently accepted behavior (or at least tolerated).

America is only unique when we fail.

[seabeyond]

46. people dont believe this. they dont trust the #'s.

i dont believe it for a minute.

you and others can keep telling me #'s are down. i dont believe or trust they are. where the changes would come from, what result of, difference in interpreting data

not much you or i can do to change this.

numbers, studies are to easy to manipulate as one wants it to appear. we see it all over the place

[TheMadMonk]

53. Yes, such is possible if the only ones doing the reporting have a vested interest...

...in reporting "improved" statistics.

However your assumptions presuposes a conspiracy amongst not only the polititans & LEAs, but also all accademics who might be working in the field of crime statistics.

Furthermore, your assumptions make even less sense when those most likely to conspire in such underreporting are as a matter of fact (and public record) pounding the shit out of the podium with their "tough on crime" rhetoric, very carefully not making reference to these studies, and not advancing the results of any countervailing studies that might exist.

[seabeyond]

76. City, National Rape Statistics Highly Suspect

FBI Says It Cannot Monitor Accuracy of Police Statistics
Responding to questions about reporting problems and lack of review, an FBI spokeswoman said that the agency had never asked any police department to clarify why it might have a high rate of "cleared" rapes without arrests. The FBI repeatedly states that it depends on state agencies to ensure that reporting is accurate. State agencies, which receive data from individual police departments and forward it to the FBI, have said they depend on police departments to report and make sure statistics are accurate.


http://www.womensenews.org/story/rape/010108/city-national-rape-statistics-highly-suspect

[JonQ]

56. And that really cuts to the heart of the matter

you put your beliefs and feelings ahead of hard evidence.

You can believe that you can walk on water without sinking, the evidence suggests otherwise. Which do you suppose would win out in the end, your feelings or physics?

[seabeyond]

74. County agency's rape statistics conflict with FBI

A Bexar County agency that tracks the number of sexual assault victims shows about twice as many reported rapes in 2008 as figures the FBI released recently for the area.

Officials with the Rape Crisis Center said the community isn't getting an accurate accounting of sexual assaults if only the FBI's Uniform Crime Report is used. Currently, UCR is the only way for the federal government to track nationwide crime trends at a local level.

Among the key concerns is that the UCR definition for forcible rape — the carnal knowledge of a female forcibly and against her will — was created in 1929 and adopted in 1930. Victim advocates say the 80-year-old description fails to give an accurate accounting of sexual assault. Also, the information is submitted voluntarily by law enforcement agencies with little oversight.

In 2008, the crisis center reported 1,024 sexual assaults that required a medical forensic exam, or rape kit, while the San Antonio Police Department reported 424 cases that met the UCR rape definition. The Bexar County Sheriff's Office reported 90 such cases.


http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/local_news/Countys_statistics_conflict.html

[JonQ]

92. You're not getting this

no one argued that 100% of rapes are reported.

You did however claim that these crimes are on the increase. Unless you have reason to believe that lately women are significantly less likely to report crimes than they were last year, and the year before and so on then that claim cannot be substantiated.


You believe crime is going up, you have precisely zero evidence to back that. Now you're just grasping at straws and it's frankly pathetic.

[JonQ]

63. Remember a few years ago

when there was a "rash" of kidnappings of pretty young white girls? You would swear we were in the middle of some crime epidemic, and people struggled to find what had changed.

Turns out the abduction rates for that year were in no way abnormal, only the media coverage was.

Try to be objective and you will find that most of the hysteria that we are supposed to join in on kind of goes away.

[seabeyond]

78. majority of rape cases, 84% by recent national estimates (Kilpatrick et al., 2007), are not reported

What was Measured: Forcible rape is defined in the FBI's Uniform Crime Reporting Program as "the carnal knowledge of a female forcibly and against her will." Carnal knowledge is defined as "the act of a man having sexual bodily connections with a woman; sexual intercourse." Carnal knowledge applies only to penetration of the vagina by the penis, no matter how slight the penetration. Assaults and attempts to commit rape by force or threat of force are also included. Note that oral and anal penetration is not assessed.

Rapes by means of the victim's intoxication, or inability to consent, are not included in this assessment. Statutory rape (without force) and other sex offenses, such as incest, are not included. However, a rape by force involving a female victim and perpetrated by a family member is counted as a forcible rape, not an act of incest. The FBI manually calculated the 2007 rate of females raped based on the national female population provided by the U.S. Census Bureau.

http://new.vawnet.org/category/Main_Doc.php?docid=2103

[JonQ]

91. And that has to do with an alleged upward trend in this particular crime

how exactly?

[paulsby]

66. oh for pete's sake

do you really think that, for example, NYPD could fudge the #'s such that there are literally thousands of people alive who would be dead if the crack wars fueled crime rates of the 80's continued? really? have you been to new york lately? that's just one example, but the difference is striking.

want another proxy? go to www.odmp.org and look at officers killed line of duty. this is a decent proxy for overall violent crime rate. the greater the violent crime, the more cops killed, and the less violent crime, the less cops killed. there's obviously a decent sized blip up in 2001 (9/11), but other than that, the stats are pretty clear. let's compare:
1982: 194 (90, 4, 6)
1983: 193
1984: 184 (72 by intentional gunfire, 6 stabbed and killed, 5 assaulted)
1985: 179 (76, 3 , 6)
1986: 178

2003: 147 (47, 1, 3)
2004: 164 (55, 0, 1)
2005: 164 (53, 1, 0)
2006: 156 (51,1,2)
and yes, more officers wear vests now than in the 80's but still the vast majority of these officers in the 80's were wearing vests. god knows i was. also, there are far MORE police officers now than 2 decades ago. officers nationwide have gone up concomitant with population rise.

does it comfort you to know that mainstream hype media has so propagandized you, that you "don't believe or trust" that the #'s are much lower now? that you are questioning DOJ homicide statistics? seriously?

[seabeyond]

73. NOPD downgrading of rape reports raises questions

http://www.nsvrc.org/news/news-field/1592


NOPD downgrading of rape reports raises questions
07/13/2009
by Laura Maggi, The Times-Picayune

More than half the time New Orleans police receive reports of rape or other sexual assaults against women, officers classify the matter as a noncriminal "complaint."

Police, who have been touting a decline in rapes, say the share of noncriminal complaints reflects the difficulty officers face in coaxing rape victims to push forward with their complaints.


But former Orleans Parish sex crime prosecutor Cate Bartholomew says the frequent use of the alternative category -- referred to as a "Signal 21" in NOPD parlance -- is a problem, arguing that some of the cases she saw should have been categorized as sex crimes.

Bartholomew and some other experts say the alternative labeling of alleged sexual assault raises questions about the accuracy of the department's recent rape statistics, showing a sharp decrease from 2007 to 2008 in the number of rapes and attempted rapes reported to the FBI: 114 rapes in 2007, down to 72 rapes last year

[paulsby]

79. that's groovy but

1) everybody knows that NOPD is incredibly corrupt. comparing NOPD to real agencies like NYPD etc. is silly. i wouldn't trust rape stats out of NOPD. as for homicide stats out of NYC, that is an entirely different matter. and homicide stats come in from literally hundreds of police agencies across the country. there would have to be a major grand conspiracy and even then it would be almost impossible to get away with. and for what reason? to lower homicide stats?

i would be the first to question NOPD about almost anything. but we aren't talking about NOPD . we are talking about the entire united states and the dept of justice

[seabeyond]

83. fbi gets there stats from the dept. only as good as what they RECEIVE. like you say, no one trust

data fbi gets

majority of rape cases, 84% by recent national estimates (Kilpatrick et al., 2007), are not reported

[paulsby]

86. and nobody denies that

to quote dershowitz "rape is simultaneously the most under-reported and the most over-reported crime"

duh

what kilpatrick means is that about 1 in 6 rapes (depending on how you define rape) are reported to police. if you include male-male rape in prisons, it's probably lower.

but that's ALWAYS been true. it was true in the 80's and it's true now. he;s not talking about CJ agencies reporting. he's talking about VICTIMS.

so, what's your point? how does that have any relevance to the fact that violent crime is much lower now than the mid 80's. we are talking about violent crime in general, and homicide in particular. if you don't trust national rape stats (which has ALWAYS been an underreported crime, as well as an overreported (high %age of false cases)), then don't look at them

look at homicide
robbery
etc.

look, no reputable criminologist (of any political persuasion) denies that the crime rates have been going down. it's simply an absurd proposition to claim otherwise. it's literally birther like in its conspiracy nuttiness.

sure, it's all a grand conspiracy to deny the american public the real crime story. egad

[seabeyond]

95. making the validity of statistics uncertain.... per fbi. fbi is saying what i said.

the FBI cautions that a significant portion of rapes go unrecorded, making the validity of the statistics uncertain.

http://www.cambridgema.gov/CityOfCambridge_Content/documents/2%20Rape.pdf

not only is fbi saying what i said, that their numbers are uncertain.... but police departments and other groups are also questioning the numbers.

my post was, i do not trust the numbers. you men have spouted the numbers as facts, godlike info to be held up with certainty. i called you on that. every factor, besides the men on this board using the numbers for their argument, agree with me

the numbers are not to be trusted

per fbi

[seabeyond]

77. Critics: FBI Definition Of Rape Too Narrow

The Rape Crisis Center, a Bexar County, Tx., agency that tracks the number of sexual assault victims shows about twice as many reported rapes in 2008 as figures the FBI released for the area, says the San Antonio Express-News. The center said the community isn’t getting an accurate accounting of sexual assaults if only the FBI’s Uniform Crime Report is used. The UCR definition for forcible rape — the carnal knowledge of a female forcibly and against her will — was adopted in 1930. Victim advocates say the 80-year-old description fails to give an accurate accounting of sexual assault.

In 2008, the crisis center reported 1,024 sexual assaults that required a medical forensic exam, or rape kit, while the San Antonio Police Department reported 424 cases that met the UCR rape definition. Lynn Blanco of the Rape Crisis Center, said the agency’s statistics are from cases in which a victim requested a rape kit. “We work with men, children, seniors, individuals who are gang-raped or individuals who are raped by an object that wouldn’t (necessarily) be counted in UCR,” Blanco said. Avy Skolnik of the National Coalition of Anti-Violence Programs said, “The definition of forcible rape used by the FBI for purposes of the UCR is extremely problematic. Definitions of sexual violence should focus on acts, not on the gender of the victim, nor the gender of the perpetrator.”

http://thecrimereport.org/2009/06/22/critics-fbi-definition-of-rape-too-narrow/

[paulsby]

80. that's great

but we are talking homicide stats in particular and part I and Part II crimes in general.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

71. Yes, some people are stupid.

They appeal to emotion and ignorance rather than facts.

So why do stupid people believe things that aren't true? I guess because they want to believe them. Really makes you wonder why a person would want there to be more rape than there actually is. Well, maybe not you. You in the plural not you sense.

[paulsby]

81. it's birther like in its absurdity

like there is some kind of grand conspiracy nationwide to underreport homicides?

fwiw, if anything agencies would want to OVERREPORT them, since they'd be more likely to get federal cops grant money.

[seabeyond]

82. FBI Crime Stats Omit Male Rape Victims

http://www.talkleft.com/story/2002/10/30/591/15115


"The FBI just released its report on crime statistics, but it left out something important: All male victims are excluded from its numbers on rape. Why? Because the FBI’s classifications for crimes were developed in 1929 and have never been updated to reflect the reality that many men are victims of rape, especially in prison."

"Stop Prisoner Rape, a Los Angeles-based nonprofit human rights group, is calling on the FBI to reform this blatantly sexist approach to dealing with male rape victims."

[paulsby]

87. correct. i've made this point before

and of course this has no relevance to homicides, robberies, etc. which have all gone down.

if you want look at crime (part I but NOT including rape.) guess what? it's gone way down. is your thesis that there is a sudden rash of male victim rapes, such that there is actually more crime now due to this epidemic? it's totally irrelevant to the issue. guess what? about 10% of property crime cases are thought to be false (insurance fraud, etc.). again, so what?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

88. So you're saying rates of male rape are going up and female rape are going down?

With the increase of the male rape being greater than that of female, and thus the total change of all rape being positive?

[JonQ]

93. You've yet to identify this upward trend you keep talking about

instead you cite problems with collecting the data that have been around since 1929. Think about that, they haven't changed since 1929, why do you believe then that right now there is a significant difference in reporting rates such that a huge uptick in crime could go unnoticed?

[Demoiselle]

14. The restaurant layout might have made the abduction easier...

I don't know this particular place, but there are many takeout restaurants in Philly that consist of a small public space, served through a heavy duty grill fence. The kitchen is way back out of reach and probably earshot, and the one person taking orders might, in fact, be absent from the "front" of the store for fairly long periods of time.

[RamboLiberal]

17. You probably have a good point on why restaurant didn't report

Sometimes I think Golda Meir had the right idea. "But it is the men who are attacking the women. If there is to be a curfew, let the men stay at home."

As a female I'm sick about the restrictions we women have to place on ourselves to try to avoid being attacked. If you are hungry I don't care if it is a bad neighborhood, or late at night, etc., you ought to have the right to go get some take out!

[EFerrari]

27. We also don't know if they tried to report it or not. n/t

[a la izquierda]

32. In Mexico City...

there are many, many parts of the city where subway stations (and the cars) are segregated by sex and guarded by very heavily armed cops. Women and kids in one section, men in another. Boys under 12 go with their moms, otherwise, they go with the men.
It's great (unless, like my husband, you don't speak Spanish). But the women demanded their right to safely ride public transport and not be harassed. And they got it. What is still sad, though, is that women shouldn't go out unaccompanied after dark-and that sucks.

[Barack_America]

45. I think that may be the case.

I've not been to this restaurant, but it's about 10 blocks from me and my knowledge of the buildings on that corner matches your description.

What's stunning to me is that this particular part of West Philly is by far not the worst the area has to offer. It's actually only a block from my grocery store.

[BeachBaby]

15. West Philly is the worst section of the city.

I've been in there only once. That was enough.

[Barack_America]

24. I live in West Philly and you're wrong. nt

[BeachBaby]

40. You're entitled to your opinion.

I, however, worked for a criminal defense firm for Philadelphia County for almost 14 years.

Thems the facts. With Hunting Park, Strawberry Mansion, and Olney coming in as close seconds.

[Barack_America]

42. And I guess you're entitled to your antiquated facts.

That are somehow are supposed to supersede both recent crime statistics and my experience actually LIVING in this city for the past 8 years.

Okay.

[BeachBaby]

43. Well, if "antiquated" includes the stats from 11 months ago.....

okey dokey.

I worked there from 1994-2008.

[seabeyond]

18. i am not getting why dragging a woman out and gang raping her gets recommended? nt

[Odin2005]

20. People are recommending the thread, not the act.

:shrug:

[MattBaggins]

29. What he said

I gave it a rec because it is a serious issue.

[kstewart33]

26. Recommended because people need to know that this terrible outrage still happens, big time. nt

[OnceUponTimeOnTheNet]

36. Because it needs to be seen.

Get it to greatest with 5 recs. Some DUers use that page alot.

[Odin2005]

19. WTF? Why didn't anyone stop them?

:grr: :cry:

[smoogatz]

22. Gangbang porn + crystal meth

and away you go. I never thought I'd say this, but I actually think gangbang porn, and other particularly degrading types of porn, should be regulated/banned. I'll bet it has a really corrosive effect on certain types of people.

[MattBaggins]

28. Just this once I'm going to have to agree with you

I usually take the other side when people discuss music or video games in this context but you are correct on this.

If you think about the reasons that folks watch various forms of porn, redheads, gay, asian, big boobs, small boobs just to mention a few; they are watching what appeals to them and arouses them sexually.

What kind of people watch things such as kiddie porn or rape porn? Even if it is fake and simulated; what kind of person enjoys rape porn?

[Odin2005]

30. Watch out, I criticized gang-bangs in the gang rape hoax threads a while back and..

...got massively flamed.

[comrade snarky]

62. You criticized anything beyond monogamous

1 on 1 sexual activity and got righteously called out for it. You apologized too as I recall.

Why you would want to bring that up again is beyond me.

[Imajika]

38. There is no reason to ban/regulate any porn...

There is not an epidemic of gang bang rapes. It just isn't happening in any greater numbers than it ever did before.

Almost every type of violent crime has been in decline for years, despite what our hyperactive 24/7 media lead you to believe.

People see everything now because of the access we all have to information, so horrible crimes like this get more attention than they once did. It isn't as if this awful stuff wasn't happening previously, it just that you didn't hear about it as much and didn't see all the pictures all over cable TV.

Think Aruba. One girl disappears and based on the media coverage (particularly Fox) you'd think their was an epidemic of young college girls being snatched off tropical resorts.

There is no reason to start running around banning stuff. There is no crisis in need of immediate government over regulation. This was a terrible crime, prosecute those who violated this girl and possibly anyone who didn't lift a finger to call the authorities, that is what needs to happen.

[comrade snarky]

64. Exactly correct

If pornography and violent video games had a causal relationship to crime then the rates should have skyrocketed over the last 15 years as more extreme porn became readily available on the internet and games became more realistic.

There are entire industries that do better when the American public is scared. Prisons, politicians, and media companies all can benefit. That's the reason we're being told to be afraid. Fear is the dangerous thing we're being sold, not immorality.

I'm glad these monsters are caught. Try the and if they are guilty put em in the jail basement for the rest of their pitiful lives. That will do a lot more than some feel good ban.

[JonQ]

41. If access to violent/degrading porn was linked to actual acts of violent rape

wouldn't the rate of rates have increased with the accessibility of the internet? At any moment you choose you can get ahold of any kind of porn you like, for free. That was not the case 5 years ago, certainly not 10, or 20+. So if there were a causal link then those rates of crime would be steadily increasing. The stats show that they are actually decreasing.

Porn is not the problem and censorship is not the answer.

Besides, everyone knows society went to hell once rock and roll came along, filling peoples minds with satans music. Too late to put that cat back in the bag.

[seabeyond]

47. of course it does. and those entertained by rape will refuse to ever believe. nt

[JonQ]

49. There is no evidence that is the case

see my post on the subject; incidents of rape and violence have not increased along with the increase in availability of images of rape and violence.

So if correlation does not prove causation, then no correlation at all certainly does not prove causation.

[seabeyond]

52. and companies spend millions on ads because they do not effect the populace. nt

[JonQ]

58. Ads are a bit different

for one, buying a coke does not involve going against common morality, decency, and risk a long prison sentence.

You probably believe violent videogames have been linked to actual violence too. What about rock and roll music? Or dancing?

[Imajika]

60. They spend on ads...

...to try to convince people to buy their entirely legal products. People are faced with legal options in life and those ads are designed to persuade them to buy a certain legal product. That is a far cry from watching a gang bang porn flick and deciding to grab yer friends, smoke some meth and gang rape some girl off the street.

There simply is not an epidemic of gang rape. It just isn't happening.

The crime rate has in fact been tending downward for quite a few years, yet we've had MORE access to violent games, pornography, violent music, etc, etc. There just isn't a connection that can be reasonable shown.

You know who tries to make this correlation over and over and over? Religious fanatics whom are convinced the world is going to hell in a handbasket and blame Rock n Roll, GTA, R rated movies, and Internet porn. These religious types detest free will because they fear their flock won't make the right choices, so they want to ban and regulate all manner of movies, music, games, etc. The evidence just isn't there to support their conspiratorial views that people see bad things and run out and do them.

This information age means we see almost everything that happens almost instantly. The more shocking it is, the more likely it will be on our favorite news sites, blogs or the front page of Yahoo. Just because we see more of what is happening in our world, doesn't mean bad things are actually happening more often.

[bertman]

75. From what I have read about advertising, it is used primarily to validate a purchase of an

object or product. It makes the individual feel that he/she made the right purchase because all of those other happy, beautiful people who drive nice cars and have good teeth, have the same item.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

72. I blame cream of wheat and old Jim Belushi movies.

It's bound to happen really.

[DU GrovelBot]

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[winyanstaz]

57. The question also springs to mind is this:

Is this the first time these men have done this or is this just the first time something has been done about it?

[JonQ]

59. Yeah I had wondered that as well

this seems pretty brazen for a first time, but who knows?

[Merchant Marine]

84. Now there's an argument for females to carry concealed weapons

A woman can't fight off 6 men with her bare hands. A woman with a 9mm handgun, on the other hand, can send all 6 to the hospital or to the morgue.

[Barack_America]

85. You assume she wasn't.

Yet that was not indicated in the story.

[Merchant Marine]

89. True

And Philly and Penn laws require "Shall Issue" of permits. So she could have had one. However, odds are that she didn't, because very few americans even know you can legally carry a concealed weapon, let alone do. But I'm not musing on whether or not she had a gun. But these sorts of stories are very good answers to the common question "Why do you need to carry a gun?". The fact is that the world can be a nasty place, and some chance at self defense is better than no chance at all.

It's like the people who say that CCW in college is bad because there will be a gunfight between the shooter and the CCW holder. Well look at the alternative. What could be worse than the unresisted execution of an entire classroom?

[Barack_America]

90. Concealed weapons are very, very common in Philly.

Legality is basically a non-issue. Illegal purchase and carry is the norm.

Still, I doubt she had a weapon, though I am certain at least one of her attackers did. Even had she been carrying a weapon, she lost her advantage as soon as her attackers walked into that restaurant. Such is life in our countries inner cities, which is why gun laws are such a big issue for those of us who live here. FYI, this attack happened 10 blocks from my apartment and one block from my grocery store.

[Barack_America]

94. Another FYI. This occurred 2 blocks from our local police precinct.

Explaining the almost instantaneous police response and making the event that much more bizarre and frightening.