Agree/Disagree: Every level of education (including college) should be free:

[anonymous171]

Just wanted to see what DU thought about this proposal

[Jokerman]

1. A truly "pro-business" government...

would be dedicated to providing a healthy, educated work force.

[Vincardog]

3. Bingo and teach the students ot THINK not just regurgitate some test pap

[RKP5637]

4. EXACTLY!!! n/t

[harun]

61. Well put.

[Deja Q]

85. "pro-life" government, too...

Life doesn't end when the kid slides out of the fun birth chute...

[TwilightGardener]

2. Nothing is free. Oh, you mean tax dollars = free?

[Vincardog]

5. Tax dollars should be spent for the betterment of the peoples' lives

[The2ndWheel]

Then the people need a choice as to what they want their tax money to pay for

But that's why we're called tax payers, and not tax allocators.

[donco6]

63. Actually, that's why you have representatives.

To represent.

[The2ndWheel]

67. Exactly. It's not my job to allocate the money

My job is to pay the money under threat of penalty.

[donco6]

78. I read you wrong - sorry.

<snark off>

[RKP5637]

9. The US has such twisted priorities. War is our top priority in spending tax dollars. Ridiculous.n/t

[daleanime]

39. Exactly...

not just to increase corporate profits.

[Echo In Light]

45. Instead of invading/occupying countries whose resources we want, & killing their people

Agreed

[donheld]

89. People's minds are infrastructure. The most important infrastructure a country can have

Yes it should be paid for with tax dollars. Money well spent in my opinion.

[ItNerd4life]

6. And teacher's should work for free also! What a stupid poll.

Nothing is ever free, someone has to pay for it.

[dysfunctional press]

14. apparently nobody paid to teach you about pluralization and/or the use of an apostophe.

[Kaleva]

74. Whatever happened to the capitalization of the first letter in a sentence?

[dysfunctional press]

84. i don't use caps at all.

unless it's for emphasizing something.

[anonymous171]

16. By "free" I mean "available at no charge to all qualified candidates"

The Government could easily pick up the cost.

[TwilightGardener]

22. By "the government", of course, you mean "me" and "you".

[anonymous171]

29. We would get the money by cutting the military budget and raising taxes on the rich

Among other things

[freddie mertz]

30. Subsidy, my friend. Subsidy.

I am a teacher and do not work for free.

I work, in part, for my state.

Subsidy.

[Vincardog]

50. Right. That is why BIDNESS would rather hire H1B who had a "free" education that hire Americans who

have $100,000 bills to repay for theirs. Those Winnie Americans want too much money. Of course they have to get the money to pay back all the debt they had to go into to get an "education" that was to prepare them for the "high paying jobs of the future".

[Amerigo Vespucci]

7. The "qualified individuals" part is key...

...because we all know the two extremes.

Extreme #1). Attend college, work your ass off, 4.0 GPA

Extreme #2). Attend college, fuck around, get high, get laid, get the munchies, call mom and dad and ask them to send more money.

Like I said, those are the EXTREMES...with a wide range in between...but I would strongly disagree with ANYONE close to extreme #2 getting a "free" college education without offering proof, at the end, that they are "educated."

Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life, son.

:patriot:

[redqueen]

8. Don't most countries which provide college educations require

that students maintain a certain GPA?

We could do that here to ensure no slackers were just mooching off the system.

[Amerigo Vespucci]

52. I believe they do...

...unless a person is actually, literally "helpless," I don't believe there's ever justification for "something for nothing."

I created and maintain the Website for a local school foundation. Teachers with demonstrated needs and a well-written "return on investment" statement receive grants. Students with excellent GPAs, who have demonstrated a well-rounded educational life as well as community service, write an essay that they submit with their applications, and the creme de la creme receive scholarship funds and merit awards.

So whether it's maintaining a high GPA, community service, or both, the most motivated students should have access to quality education.

The stoners and slackers and leeches should have access to their parents' basement.

:patriot:

[LuvNewcastle]

18. I agree.

We also need "free" vocational schools for those not suited for a college education. After junior high, school administrators could look at grades and test scores to see who qualifies for which route to take.

[Ignis]

10. At the absolute minimum, trade/technical college should be free.

:thumbsup:

[anonymous171]

11. I agree. But I have to ask, why stop at vocational school?

What is the difference? :shrug:

[Ignis]

54. Baby steps.

Start by making all technical/vocational schools free. Give that 5-10 years to percolate, so that even the most knuckle-dragging Winger can see the benefit to society. Then we move forward and expand the program.

My only concern with trying to go from 0-60 and making 4-year universities free would be the inevitable in-fighting: Why should society pay for a Music major's education, when a Science major's education is more "concretely" useful to society?

Most DUers probably realize the value of a liberal arts education to both the individual and society, but good luck convincing Teabaggers that their taxes should pay for someone's degree in Native American Studies, or Women's Studies, or ... well, you get the picture.

[RKP5637]

13. Definitely!!! n/t

[Lyric]

12. Yes, it should be free.

But how do we define "qualified?" My guess is that if the government provided free college, then their standard for "qualified" would be a bit higher than the current standard that most average state colleges have. I base this guess on the fact that here in my state, we have a similar program. It's called the Promise Scholarship. Any WV high school graduate who qualifies under GPA and ACT/SAT standards gets free tuition to a WV state college or university. However, the standards for Promise are higher than WVU's standards for admission--mostly because the government wants to pay the least possible amount of money. Raising the standards means less qualified applicants, therefore less money paid out.

I cannot agree that high school GPA and tests scores are suitable to serve as a federal standard because if that were so, then I wouldn't qualify. My high school GPA was abysmal even though I was in the "gifted" program because I went through a series of horrific family tragedies and upheavals during my high school years. I didn't take the ACT or SAT because dropped out in 11th grade to start working full-time. My Dad was dead, my Mom was sick; *someone* had to keep the bills paid and my younger siblings fed. Ten years later I got my GED and started college, and I've been on the President's list four times, Dean's list four times, won thirteen awards for my writing and scholarship, and been published three times, all in my first two years of college. I am without a doubt a "qualified" student, but I wouldn't have been if I'd been judged by the GPA/ACT/SAT standard.

So how do we fairly judge? Where do we set the standard? How do we keep gifted kids who've suffered personal issues that affected their schoolwork from being tossed aside with the dropouts and underachievers?

It's worth a conversation, I think.

[anonymous171]

31. Community college-style institutions could stil exist for those that want a second shot at college

Same thing happened to me so I know where you are coming from. :hi:

[Lyric]

47. I appreciate your empathy, but I disagree.

Community college isn't the answer for every student. Some students are best served by a CC, but some are best served by a regular 4-year university. And that's assuming that there's a CC available to everyone, which is unfortunately not the case at all.

My concern is that students who have the ability and talent to excel in a traditional university setting will be railroaded off to CCs and trade schools because some bureaucrat decided that their school statistics weren't good enough for "real" college. I would rather see a system that isn't a faceless monolith; a system in which each student's situation is decided individually. Otherwise we risk losing a large chunk of our talented students because they had the misfortune to be victims of tragic circumstances as teenagers. I'm just saying that we should take precautions to ensure that we don't put a bureaucratic barrier in front of genuinely able students who want to attend a normal 4-year college.

[anonymous171]

53. I agree with you. The last thing we need is a track system

Like they have in some European countries. I would leave the decision to go to college to the students. I just want their decisions to be free from financial constraints. Community Colleges are a great way for a student to get back on their feet and transfer into a 4 year institution. That's what I was trying to say.

[LuvNewcastle]

57. I think counselors could help

in a situation like yours. Counselors and teachers could write letters of recommendation to the college board for students with extenuating circumstances. You were in gifted classes after all, so someone must have been aware of your potential even back then.

[Freddie Stubbs]

15. Who decides who is qualified?

:shrug:

[anonymous171]

21. Test scores, GPA, etc. nt

[Cyrano69]

17. How is it possible to get Education

for the masses for FREE? It costs money to pay teachers, build buildings, buy books, computers, etc. somebody is paying for it. If you are talking about the government paying for it then it isn't really free, because we all pay.

[anonymous171]

24. Tax the rich. A lot. Put a (reasonable) cap on personal fortunes.

[TwilightGardener]

34. A cap on personal fortunes? I'd like to see that pass Congress, LOL.

edit--on second thought, no, I really wouldn't.

[Cyrano69]

38. and that would be Constitutional, how?

[TwilightGardener]

41. Um, I think it's ridiculous. Perhaps you meant to respond to the other poster.

[Cyrano69]

87. No, I meant to respond to you

How would a "cap on personal fortunes" be constitutional? Or a cap on salaries for that matter?

[anonymous171]

43. Unequal treatment is OK as long as it fulfills a compelling state interest

[Cyrano69]

88. NO, What I am asking is

under what authority can the government CAP private sector salaries or fortunes?

[anonymous171]

59. I would. You don't need more than $75 million in the bank to ensure a very nice lifestyle.

Letting all that money collect dust in a bank is criminal.

[HughBeaumont]

40. That and end wasteful wars and corporate welfare.

That alone would fund it.

It'd never happen, though. Republicans, who openly aid and abet the ridiculously wealthy, the MIC and corporations, would never get elected again.

[treestar]

28. OP means "public"

The public schools are "free" in the sense they are taxpayer funded. Should this be extended to college is the question.

[Cyrano69]

37. Public education is surely not FREE

My school district's budget is $62, 543,655 to educate 4576 kids. A job they mostly fail miserably at by the way.

That means that the taxpayers are giving the school district $13,668.00/kid

I could send my kid to the semi- private academy in the next town, which has an outstanding academic record for $8,950/ yr. Or I could send my kid to St. Joe's in a neighboring town for $3,100/ yr. And he would get a much better education.

Believe me public school is FAR from free.

[Lyric]

55. But your poor neighbors couldn't.

They couldn't afford those private schools at all, even if their kids were "good enough" to be admitted.

Yes, we all pay for public schools. This is a good thing. We all benefit from an educated population; higher education means less people robbing businesses and breaking into homes out of jobless desperation. It means a better, more competent worker pool for the business that your kid or grandkid might want to start someday. It means that your neighbors are more prosperous, which in turn helps to keep property values up for everyone.

No, public education is not "free" for everyone, but even childless people benefit from education's positive effects on the social order. It costs tax dollars, but we all reap social and financial benefits in return for those dollars. Some of us believe that funding college fully for students would increase those benefits even more.

[leftstreet]

56. How is it possible to get war funding 'for free?' n/t

[BlooInBloo]

19. Really, the word "free" should just be excised from the English language...

Perhaps if there ever comes a time when people demonstrate the ability to use the word correctly, it could be reinstated.

[specialed]

20. Not free but

State universities should be funded in a similar fashion as k - 12 funding. Students going "out of state" would have a reciprocal voucher program from one state to another. Privates would still be so.

Fun stuff.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

23. I think high school should be tougher, however

In some countries, there are national pass or fail exams after high school to qualify individuals for entry into the university. In some countries, it is completely normal for high school classes to be so tough that the majority of students have had to repeat a grade at some point. I think some people are attending college now who are going just for the sake of going and don't really need to be there and aren't committed to excellence. I'd also think about decreasing the importance of athletics at the university, but I know that I'm in the extreme minority on that issue.

[napi21]

25. I don't think it should be free. I believe if people don't have some skin in the game,

they won't try as hard or just be there to party. I raised my 2 boys that same way. They both wanted a car when they turned 16. I said that's fine, but I won't buy you one. If you buy a used one I will help you in every way I can to get it fixed up and something you can be proud of, but YOU have to buy it. Both did, and (KOW) neither ever had an accident or speeding ticket. Some friends of theirs automatically got a car for their 16th BD, and I can tell you shome heart breaking stories of what happened in quite a few instances.

Maybe a radically reduced tuition for anybody who maintains a B avg. might work.

I DO believe at least College should be affordable for everyone who wants to go, particularly at State Colleges. If the private ones feel they have to charge hugh amounts, that's their option.

BTW, my son's stepdaughter & her husband who live in Romania are both attending Med School. Their tuition is $1,200/yr if they maintain a B avg. Her husband graduated last summer and she has 2 years to go.

[anonymous171]

36. I would assumed that someone who worked hard enough for a A/B average

would not go to college just to party.

[mopinko]

26. as others have said- nothing is free.

considerable subsidies to the educational sector are a very good investment, tho.

[redqueen]

27. I'm surprised at the nitpicking in this thread.

from wiki

The United Nations' International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights of 1966, guarantees this right under its Article 13, which states that "higher education shall be made equally accessible to all, on the basis of capacity, by every appropriate means, and in particular by the progressive introduction of free education".

I'm sure the utter morans at the UN expected that people would be able to figure out that in this context, 'free' means 'at no cost to the student'. Honestly...

[freddie mertz]

33. Large majority in the poll supports free subsidized education.

The wingers are more vocal, as always, in the threads.

[donco6]

62. No kidding.

I was expecting John McCain to pop up yelling at people to "get off my lawn!"

[redqueen]

64. lol

:)

[DU GrovelBot]

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[Lydia Leftcoast]

35. College should be free, but only to people who have the aptitude and work ethic

This has nothing to do with social class. Some of my worst students were dumb rich kids, for whom college was a four-year holding tank.

On the other hand, one of the best students I ever knew had grown up in a trailer behind a gas station.

So, yes, I would be for free college if the admissions requirement specified that you had to have academic aptitude. Frankly, the students who go to college just because their parents tell them to are the ones responsible for most of the binge drinking and vandalism on college campuses.

We'd have to strengthen our vocational training programs, too.

Remember the young man who rescued those children from the bus after the Minneapolis bridge collapse? He had been forced to drop out of the vocational school where he was studying auto repair because he couldn't afford the tuition. (Fortunately, some alumni got together and paid so he could finish.)

So I'd like to revise the statement to say that all young people should be entitled to appropriate post-secondary education or training.

[TheWebHead]

42. so where's this pot of gold at the end of the rainbow

you think is out there that can pay for it... Trillion dollar deficits, $12T debt, long term health care liabilities, and states in a revenue drought produce a real world environment where we'll likely head in the opposite direction.

[anonymous171]

46. Raise taxes on the rich, end the war and our empire, and increase funding to IRS.

I want an entire army of tax specialists dedicated to milking the rich for all they are worth.

[get the red out]

44. NO, You cannot have free education!!!

Because then the Republican Party would quickly cease to exist and our country would make real progress and our people would be intelligent and able to see through BS. Half of this country thinks stuff like that would doom them to the fires of hell for all eternity.

[anonymous171]

49. Believe it or not the GOP actually has an intellectual foundation

Remember that Henry Kissinger was highly educated, same with Friedman.

[freddie mertz]

58. HAD one anyway. Not so much anymore.

They have embraced stupidity and ignorance with great and undisguised passion in the past decades.

Dan Quayle, GWB, Sister Sarah, Beck, Rush, and the rest.

Idiot morans all, and heroes to the current GOP.

[get the red out]

86. But they don't want that for "commoners"

It's about the elite vs the serfs in their book. And they don't want the rabble getting any fancy ideas about equality and living wages.

[Froward69]

48. Other ...and I will tell ya why

first to graduate from HS Passing the citizenship test required for all immigrants should be mandatory.

as Well as high test scores should be the entrance qualification. not solely GPA As I found a GPA was really a measure of how well the student kissed Teacher ass.

I questioned all of my HS teachers, thus graduated HS with a 1.5 GPA. I scored 1450 on the SAT and a 29 on the ACT.

YES tuition should be free. once A student should fall below say a 2.0 (C) GPA. in college then do like CSU does it with academic probation. and if the student continues to fail then suspending that student until they maintain a 2.0 GPA or better elsewhere.

As not all of us are geniuses. nor are all of us stupid. but the major part of Education is actually the student figuring out what they would like to do with their lives, and where they fit into society.

The cost of tuition financially eliminates potential. Without giving that potential student a chance at all. Whilst "legacy's" clog the system and artificially keep elitists, elevated.

[daleanime]

51. I dare anyone to look at our political process...

and tell me that a large percentage of Americans don't need a lot more education.

[harun]

60. I voted free, but I think a small cost should be associated with it.

Like in Finland where I think it might be $50-100 a semester.

[TexasObserver]

65. I favor FREE, but if you don't show up, you're out.

I do not favor subsidizing any student who isn't serious, who doesn't treat class like a job. If it's free, it can only be free if the student shows up and does the work. If they don't, boot them out. They're wasting resources another student needs.

[bridgit]

66. Disagreed with as a practical matter where your poll samples education at all levels...

even being a "privilege", it isn't a privilege but it should be a shared responsibility

Scandinavia, as a for instance, offers tuition free options to higher education; but there is an in-kind, reciprocal responsibility on the part of the student to offer their now-vital services back to the system that has nurtured them so. Though Scandinavia is understood as more reasonable on a host of levels including this one

If you're talking here in the states forget it. We already have too many PoliSci peeps and we see what they have wrought; too many bizz & admin peeps setting stuff on fire and running shit into the ground, and too many university level audio/visual geeks that just end up photo-shopping bullshit over at Foxnews driving round behind tinted Escalades behind their pop-pablum-products so fuck that. Let them finance their own endeavors. Neither am I interested in funding an attorney that ends up hard RW and working against Americans - they can make their first appeal to the 700 club

But if you have a little vision, and some merit...then apply for a merit based scholarship or participate in a program where one's merits are able to be reviewed

http://tuitionfreecolleges.mtnhome.org/tuition-free-universities/tuition-free-universities-sweden.html

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

68. Minimum Requirements to Enter...

Some people, for a variety of reasons, aren't prepared for the challenges of a university education at the age of eighteen. Rather than provide them with a free education for six months until they drop out (which is of marginal to little use), I would like to see entrance requirements and selectivity remain at four-year institutions.

Those who aren't prepared can still receive free vocational education and college prep courses. The prep courses would, one hopes, prepare students to move on to a four year degree.

But most or all of it should be taxpayer supported.

[Bigmack]

69. I got paid to go to college....

... the GI Bill. Of course, I really earned that money!

That was the old GI Bill.

When I got back from the Southeast Asia War Games, I got the GI Bill every month, the state of Michigan paid my tuition and books, and the NDEA loaned me money... payments and interest of 2% to start after graduation, and 10 years to repay the loan. I taught, and that reduced the loan principal by 10% per year of teaching up to 50%.
$3500 loan... halved by teaching = $1750 repaid over 10 years

Quite simply, the rich no longer want the middle and working classes to get college educations, so they are just pricing it out of reach for most Americans.

Kiss the scattered remains of the middle class goodbye!

[sakabatou]

70. Books should also cost a LOT FUCKING LESS

[redqueen]

72. Hear hear... and stop requiring a new edition every time

someone changes a few things.

It's a racket.

[wickerwoman]

75. Yeah, total scam.

My environmental science textbook is on it's 21st edition. Each year they fix a few typos, release a new "edition" and force all of the university bookstores to only stock the new copies instead of the used ones. $70 a book when, by total luck, I found a virtually identical used earlier edition at a local book store for $4.

[anonymous171]

76. Blame university book stores.

They are the ones that sell used textbooks at incredibly inflated prices, thus driving up the costs for everyone and encourages book companies to print a new fucking edition every goddamn year.

[slackmaster]

81. Part of the problem is professors who force students to buy THEIR texts

That was common at UCSD when I was there.

[leftstreet]

71. STOP SAYING 'FREE' - that's a rightwing talking point

Do fire departments put out your house fire 'for free,' or does that come from your tax dollars?

[slackmaster]

73. Qualified "No" because I don't want my tax dollars paying for college eductions for everyone

1. Some people can afford to pay their own way from personal wealth or scholarships they have earned, and

2. I think many people go to college who really shouldn't. If a taxpayer-funded college education is available, unless there are some strict, objective standards for admission, some people will abuse the entitlement as a way of getting free room and board for a few years and putting off getting a job. (I personally have known many people who did just that because someone else payed for their college education.)

3. I'd like to see more honest language used in this kind of discussion. Availability of a taxpayer-funded benefit constitutes an entitlement. People have the right to a decent education in the same sense that they have a right to health care, but not a natural right to have someone else pay for an advanced education or elective medical procedures. If we as a society decide to fund an education for anyone who wants it and meets the academic qualifications, that is an entitlement.

[Kaleva]

77. The poll question ought to be rephrased. Somebody has to pay for this.

[Odin2005]

79. Free. College education should be publically funded.

[slackmaster]

80. Even for individuals who can afford to pay their own way?

Please explain.

[Odin2005]

82. Yes. A right is a right.

[slackmaster]

83. I agree that education is a right, but what is being described here is an entitlement

There is a very big difference.

Food is a right. We don't give food stamps to people who can afford groceries.

Shelter is a right. We don't provide subsidized housing to people who can pay their own rent.

Why should everyone pay for a college education for people who can pay their own way? I could see some kind of sliding scale based on ability to pay, like those used for some government benefits.