Shame all those CA students haven't figured it out

[TwixVoy]

It's a shame all those students protesting in CA haven't figured out that college is a BUSINESS out to make money. How many people are aware that executives sitting on the board of major corporations also sit in upper level positions at some universities? Many people are not - but it's a fact.

The student loan system is designed to indebt students for decades, if not life. (for more info on this see http://www.studentloanjustice.org/)

Student loans can NEVER be discharged in bankruptcy. (with few exceptions, such as being paralyzed from the neck down) Student loan lenders can't loose. Many people are not aware of this, but guess what happens when a borrower can not pay a student loan? The feds pay the lender the balance of the loan. But guess what? The borrower is STILL on the hook for the full balance, PLUS any penalty costs. They can essentially collect from this borrower for life. They can seize bank accounts, garnish wages, and even take social security and federal tax refunds.

Colleges have no reserve about raising costs because they know the suckers will just borrow however much money is needed regardless of the fact they will never be able to pay it back. And they know the banks will be happy to cut them a check because the banks are essentially creating a host to feed off of like a parasite for life.

We are essentially creating a generation of debt slaves.

I also believe the lie of "everyone needs at least a 4 year degree from a major university" is the biggest marketing lie of this generation. Unless you are going to university for a HIGHLY skilled degree that few are capable of getting then you should be going to a trade school AT MOST. The claim that "everyone" should be at a major university is a lie meant to encourage debt slavery. Colleges are like vacation spots to weaker students. Four years (or more) of fun college life at the expense of your financial well being for the next few decades. They will be happy to offer them some crap degree that really means nothing. For example, when CSI became popular lots of schools started to offer CSI classes. What a joke. It is designed to appeal to the shallowness of this generation. Sure you can be just like the actors on CSI in real life! Just get our $50,000 CSI degree.

Of course most of these young people (and the vast majority of parents) haven't figured this out. They won't until they wonder why they are getting no where in life financially 10 years from now. Check out all the personal stories on http://www.studentloanjustice.org/. Lots of people that got taken back in the 90's. When the young people of this decade figure out they were taken for fools it will be far worse. One because they are taking on MUCH higher debt loads than those in the 90's, and two because the BS paper pushing easy jobs that paid middle class wages and needed a bogus degree of the 90's are gone and not coming back.

Take a look at the banking partnership the University of Houston has, for example, with The Bancorp Bank. They give all students a freaking STUDENT ID THAT IS A VISA CARD!!!! It's a scam people.

[WCGreen]

1. I have always suspected a direct correlation between the availability

of student loans and the cost of attending university or college.

There is a disconnect between the student eager to attend college and the price he/she will have to eventually pay.

[TwixVoy]

3. Two books I STRONGLY recommend

Both of these books I have read and are spot on:

"No Sucker Left Behind" and "College is for Suckers"

Both nail the money making *business* that college has become, and analyze how student loans are creating a generation of people literally in debt to the banks for life. They are full of interesting statistics and facts. No Sucker Left Behind has literally almost 1000 sources in the bibliography backing up all of the numbers in the book.

[WCGreen]

Thank you....

[msongs]

2. almost as bad as those farmers forcing us to eat food so they can make more $$ nt

[dana_b]

4. you're right however

they are indoctrinated from a young age to believe that they HAVE to go to a four year college otherwise their lives will amount to nothing! I remember having these discussions with my teenage daughter a few years ago. It started in junior high when her teachers/counselors were really stressing to the kids the importance of a four year college degree. Get good grades, test, test, test!! She became so overwhelmed that she seem to give up for a while and her grades nose dived.

She's in a community college now and, so far, seems content to not be stressing about getting into a university. She will probably end up in a trade school.

Until we as a nation realize that not everything should be at the mercy of the corporations - especially the big things like education and healthcare - we (the working class and poor) are not going to get out from under this crushing, soul-stealing debt.

[dionysus]

18. well, if you want a job in IT, engineering, anything scientific, you have to get that peice of paper

there are several industries that require such training. doctors, lawyers...

[EOTE]

26. I'm 30 years old and have been working IT steadily since I turned 16.

I never finished college, but am still in high demand.

[historian]

36. thank you for that!!!!

My daughter went to law school much against my opinion. She has finished school and has a job paying about 200.000 a year but guess what? After taxes etc which will be enormous shell have less than a monthly wage to take home. Out of this she is expected to pay 1800 a month for her tuition of 160000!!!!!!!
Now my son has been infected with this 4 year college nonsense studying sociology. It has been rammed into his head that unless he has a college degree he is going nowhere. He hates academia but loves to work with his hands and on a computer. I've told him countless time to find a good trade because those are cannot be exported (find a plumber in india to work in Iowa!!) and so on.
Oh well good for you - you are one smart person it seems, with far more common sense than those so called intelligent people with bs diplomas. Im going to show this to my son so he wake up and to m y daughter who is always bitching about her debt.

[EOTE]

52. Tell him to keep it up.

Almost all the knowledge I have of computers now came from simply playing around with them from an early age. That, and reading magazines like popular electronics and popular mechanics. One advantage I might have had is that when I got my first computer (probably around 1987 or so), they were pretty archaic and really required you to either have a good knowledge of computers to use or you had to fiddle around with them until you got it to do what you wanted. Nowadays computers are fairly intuitive and tend to just work without much being required from the user. However, knowing Windows really well as well as a server OS like Server 2008 can be a great step towards seeking employment in IT. Also, if you have any old computers laying around that you're not doing anything with, allow him to take it apart and perhaps identify the different parts. From that, you can get a good idea of how to put together a PC. Every couple years I put together a new system and it's kind of like hot rodding for geeks. It's usually as exciting as picking out a new ride. Lots of fun :)

[historian]

56. thanks

I taught myself computers since i resented being ripped off by computer shops so im fairly familiar with them but dont know a thing about servers. Do you think he should a course in networking? that sounds like something the whole world needs. If so any idea where he can learn that stuff? thanks for your attention and patience by the way.

[EOTE]

64. Networking is a very valuable skill.

http://www.comptia.org/certifications/listed/network.aspx

Here's a very good place to start out. Net+ Certification is rather nice to have and it's very cheap. A+ Certification as well, cheap, yet very valuable. CompTIA even includes a lot of the study materials for free. You can also download trainers for free online, some of which are interactive. There are also classes like this that combine A+ and Net+ training into one class. A+ is mostly hardware related, but is about PC tech in general while Net+ is mostly Network OS and hardware related. Having these two certifications is a relatively easy, very cheap, and very powerful way of gaining employment in the IT field. Even if he doesn't intend to get into networking, Net+ is great to have.

I went to college, but I really struggled. I've always been relatively smart and a good test taker, but I simply had a tough time keeping up with my course load. I wanted a Management of Computer Systems degree, but I found myself going crazy by the 20+ hours a week of coding it required. I could do it if I banged it out in two or so 10+ hour sessions, but it literally made me sick to my stomach. I'm a decent coder now, but I definitely prefer doing hands on work. Never got my degree, but it hasn't prevented me from being employed in the industry pretty much non-stop since High School.

[historian]

73. sorry to bother you again

He too is having a hard time in college but i help him a lot, particularly with the essays so hes getting by. Now i cant help him with the coding or all that and he has an instinctive fear of math (like me)and is also convinced he cant do anything right although he is considered the top salesperson in his job and has had numerous trips and gifts etc from the company. To make it short, i dont want him plunging into something which will defeat him the moment he opened the book! Did you find networking difficult? I ask that because you two are similar - didn't particularly care for academia which is fine but yet found networking interesting and apparently easy enough.

[EOTE]

76. No problem, more than happy to help.

I don't really find networking difficult, but it really depends on what scale we're talking about. Networking can mean anything from setting up a couple of computers on a home network to working on the servers and infrastructure that provide the back bone to the internet. If you're capable of visualizing the client/server framework and are capable of familiarizing yourself with the basic hardware of networking (servers, routers, switches and such), it's a good field to go into. Another cool thing is that just about every company has a need for some sort of network tech and usually there are more specific jobs that suit one's strong points. For instance, there are network techs who rarely touch a computer all day and simply maintain the physical infrastructure of a network. There are others who work primarily with programs like SMS or Active Directory and can spend the great bulk of their day at the desk. I think the best way to figure out if networking is suitable for your son would be to have study some of the CompTIA materials and see how well he comprehends it. Then, if you're able to, see if he can get some hands on time with both consumer and commercial grade networking equipment. For some people, networking just makes sense. Your son might find out he's able to get Net+ certification in very little time. And I believe it should still cost less than $200.

[dionysus]

39. that's the exeption to the rule, good for you.

[EOTE]

43. Not necessarily. Many of my coworkers also lack degrees.

The future of the contract I'm on is a little shaky, but we all make good money for the time being. If you have the proper knowledge, a degree really isn't necessary. Certifications, however are very, very cheap and can help quite a bit.

[dionysus]

71. ah, so you have Certs? that can be an adequate substitute in many cases

[EOTE]

72. Yes. But certifications are so much easier to obtain than a degree, it's hard to compare the two.

A person with a decent knowledge of computers can walk into a testing facility, hand over $100 or so dollars, take a quick test and receive their Net+ or A+ certifications. Having both of those could be more valuable to certain employers than a 4 year degree.

[Ignis]

53. You too?

I'm a *cough* little bit older ;) but that's been my experience as well.

[EOTE]

57. How else are they gonna get a network admin who works for $11 an hour.

In retrospect, I realize how badly screwed I was. But it certainly beat being a bus boy like a lot of my friends making minimum wage or even less.

[Ignis]

60. Ah, I remember the good old days.

Working for an outsourced IT firm that was billing me out at $200/hour and paying me ~$10/hr.

Luckily, with the right certs and experience, you can overcome that crap in IT.

[EOTE]

69. Ain't it the truth.

Right after moving to Maryland, I got a job at Lockheed Martin (not nearly as interesting as it sounds). I was an administrative assistant and pretty much just helped keep track of travel and things like that. Soon they found out that I was adept at computers so I became IT support for the whole division, all the while still making my admin assistant salary. Soon after that, they found out that I was fluent with Access and they had me programming their travel database. They had me in weekly meetings with their contractor who made the original database and we'd discuss how to thoroughly overhaul it. He was pretty much just providing ideas and I was actually implementing them. I found out that he was making $100 an hour while through the temp agency, I was making $17. Later on I was hired by the Fixed Wing Aviation division. It was pretty cool because most of my coworkers were retired fighter pilots and such, but it was a pretty boring job until they decided to put me in charge of creating a system to send out automated faxes to the suppliers of the JSF and F22 programs. Once again, my salary didn't change when they completely rewrote my job description. I got so ticked off that I was doing so much work for so little that I demanded my own office so I could "get more quiet time to code". I probably worked an average of 15% of each day, but they still got a bargain. I now work for a firm called ITS and while I'm still getting screwed over, it's considerably less so than I was before.

[dana_b]

31. of course!

you are right about that, however not every trade demands it. As a matter of fact, I am a nurse and I got my RN from a community college. Now to get my BS or a Masters, I would need to go to a university. That makes sense. However to work at the bedside, I did not need to do so. I was working at the bedside with other RNs who went to the universities and were in debt up to their noses. I had no debt and we were performing the same job.

I intend on going back to get my b.s. so that I can go into public health but I'm glad that I won't have as much debt as some of these poor people do.

[dionysus]

35. i agree with you that there are plenty of fields where it is not necessary

[tblue37]

46. There is also a situation called "credentialing," in which a job that

does not require a degree is nevertheless blocked off from people who don't have a degree. In other words, the employer requires a BA or a master's, or even a PhD for a job that simply does not require such credentials. Nowadays a lot of entry-level jobs are like that, so even if the student knows he doesn't need a degree to do a certain job, he might not be able to get that job without a degree.

[dana_b]

75. yes

that's true too. Where I work there are some positions that require certain degress (usually a Masters) but the degree doesn't necessarily have to relate to the position in which the candidate is applying for. Personally, I think it's stupid. Yes, it can prove that someone is semi-educated or has drive but there are also people who learn while on the job but thy aren't considered because of the lack of a degree.

[Ruby the Liberal]

5. There was a job posting a few months ago for an 'office manager'

in a major metropolitan city. Requirements included 5+ years industry knowledge, marketing experience, sales experience, specific software experience and a minimum of a 4 year degree. No relocation offered.

It paid $9 hour.

Theoretically, I know you are right, but you are pointing your finger in the wrong direction.

This is an employer's market. If employer's feel they can require a 4-year degree for even low-level jobs, then they will require it.

[TwixVoy]

12. I say refuse to play the game

just like I said back in the middle of this decade about housing. I heard people bitch over and over that "Houses are too expensive!" but took out a loan knowing full well there was a major disconnect. Back then I would refuse to play the game. I knew it was a sham, so I stayed the hell away from getting any kind of loan to play in to the sham.

People should do the same for the student loan game.

Guess what? That office manager job was bull shit. $9/hour. They KNOW that is bull shit. But guess what? They will get plenty of suckers who paid $50,000 to $100,000 for a degree to get that $9/hour job.

Here's an idea... instead of paying out the ass to get a degree to get that $9/hour job simply ignore that job. Go get a job at Target for $9/hour instead. You still have a job that pays $9/hour, but are not in debt the rest of your life.

I don't think this kind of BS will go on for many more years though. With the overall decline in the US economy policy makers will be forced to strong arm corporations to drop ridiculous requirements for jobs that don't even pay middle class income. Why? Because too many people will be priced out of the job market. I believe we are looking at 15-20+% unemployment in the coming years. The government will be forced to create jobs - and if ridiculous barriers to people finding jobs like a bachelors being required to be a file clerk stand in the way of job growth the government will quickly put a stop to it. Not right now they won't... but when more and more american families start ending up on the street and civil unrest starts to become a problem politicians will do whatever it takes to reign in these corporations.

Pretty soon the lie of "oh gee you are poor because you don't have enough education" won't fly. Hell they are telling people with bachelors degrees that the $9/hour job they are working is because they don't have a freaking PHD now, and that they need to go back to school to get a PHD. It is all a scam designed to create debt slaves and keep the masses believing that it is THEIR fault they are poor and the top 1% have all the money.

[dionysus]

14. try getting an IT job or engineering job without a degree.

your model only works for unskilled labor.

[EOTE]

28. I've had several.

I started my first IT related job the day I turned 16. I worked as a network administrator for a reed switch manufacturer. I've had steady employment since.

[Lucky Luciano]

111. That sort of thing worked better probably when you were 16!

Back in those days, 16 year old kids knew a lot about the heart of computers - nowadays they have been trained on windows PCs and all the pictures/windows numb people's minds as to what is under the hood. Most 16 year olds are not qualified the way that you were back in the day.

[TwixVoy]

40. Where is your IT job now?

Oh right in India. IT degrees were another suckers degree.

[dionysus]

80. lol, the one i've had for the last 10 years?

i'll let all my IT friends know what suckers we are. they'll be surprised to know we're actually in india.

prick.

what did you fail or drop out of college or something? something has to explain the self righteous bitterness...

:shrug:

[EOTE]

83. Mine is in Rockville, MD. Same as it has been for the past 5 years.

My previous IT job was close to being my personal dream job, though. The pay wasn't the best, but I got to play Foosball, pool, Counter-Strike and Starcraft pretty much all I wanted and we got unlimited free caffeinated beverages. I'd gladly take a pay cut to go back to working there. And I was even working for a company I hated. Go figure.

[Ignis]

67. Lumping IT in with Engineering is silly.

Look at IT trade magazine surveys: A large percentage of IT workers do not have an ECS or other "IT" degree. In fact, it's only been within the past decade that many schools have really offered a specific Info Tech/Sys degree track.

[dionysus]

79. i went to RIT, they might have been the first to have an IT program, where most other schools had

just CS.

[Yavin4]

48. Amen To You. You Are 100% Correct.

American employers play all sorts of mind games on us, and we don't do anything to fight back. They can willy, nilly fire us. They outsource our jobs. They hire temps. They don't want to pay middle class wages, and the list goes on and on.

Most jobs in America do not even require a college degree. At most, there should be some sort of technical training and apprenticeships.

[whoneedstickets]

70. Yeah, the point of education is totally job training....

everything else is just fluff.

[Yavin4]

86. You Don't Need to Borrow $60,000 To Learn History or Literature

There are plenty of low cost continuing education programs, lectures, libraries, and online resources for you to do that. Throwing yourself into life long debt to do that just makes no sense whatsoever.

There are other ways to get an education and become enlightened.

[lildreamer316]

108. Exactly.

In general, anything I want to learn about I can, and do, from right here at my computer. Bless Al Gore :) Seriously, though; if there is something I am wanting to know about and can't get info here on the internet; at the library, or otherwise a la carte; there are local community colleges (and yes, even the continuing ed part of my local state college) that offer courses I can easily afford a one time payment for. Of course some specific areas of study require much more dedication, but you referenced History and Lit - very easy to find your way to voluminous knowledge of both.

BUT..it's called self-starting behaviour...one needs to get one's ass off the couch and actually LOOK for the info!

[tblue37]

47. Yep, that is exactly what I mean by "credentialing" a job (in my post above yours). nt

[abelenkpe]

6. k & r

[inna]

7. K&R.

I'm still deeply in debt, and I completely agree with your points.

On edit: thank you very much for the link!

[whoneedstickets]

8. Yeah! Screw knowledge! All I need to know I learned in woodshop!

Think about it. If you could walk away from student loans who would ever lend you the money? Its not like a car where they can repossess your property for non-payment to recoup part of their loss.

Yes, tuition fees should be lower. Education should be more accessible. But arguing that we should all just settle for being ignorant is, well, ignorant.

[dionysus]

11. bing

[glitch]

16. College isn't the only path out of ignorance. nt

[dionysus]

19. what if you want to be a doctor or a lawyer?

[TwixVoy]

25. Again as I said in the OP

If you are going for a HIGHLY SKILLED PROFESSION such as doctor by all means a university is your path.

The fact is 90% of people going to a university these days are NOT getting degrees in high skilled professions, and many of them will end up in sectors of the economy that in 100 years of existence worked just fine filled with people who never had degrees.

[whoneedstickets]

30. Sure, why would anyone need to know anyting about..

..Literature? Philosophy? Art? Politics? or Religion. If it ain't job related why the hell even think about it.

[TwixVoy]

33. Where did I say that?

Did you miss the part where I said crack a fucking book from time to time?

Why do I NEED a university to learn about any of those topics? Tell me why it is not possible to learn about said topics with out a university. Also explain to me how some of the greatest artists, philosophers, and writers in our history never went to a major university. EXPLAIN IT.

[whoneedstickets]

42. No you don't need to go to college...

..its just the most efficient route and a degree is a measurable way of demonstrating you've done it. Yeah, Bill Gates was a college drop-out, I get your point.

BTW which books should you crack? How would you know where to start? Oh, right you'd probably consult some source for guidance. Probably some college-educated source.

[TwixVoy]

45. "BTW which books should you crack?"

I'll give you some of my favorites once you answer the question I asked you FIRST. EXPLAIN how we have so many great artists, philosophers, and writers in our history who never had a formal college education. You made the claim - now defend it. I'm not surprised if you can't. That's another thing colleges fail to change about students.

edit: Two books you REALLY need to crack are two I recommended earlier up this thread. I suspect, however, that you never will. After all your degree eliminated your ignorance. You don't need to crack books anymore, as apparently you don't even know of any that you should take a look at. I have a feeling you are either incredibly young and naive, or incredibly old and full of your self. Can't stand to be told your degree doesn't make you as smart as you think it does....

[whoneedstickets]

62. Yeah, and I think you've come to realize...

..that your lack of one has place a ceiling on your career trajectory and you're starting to get resentful of that fact and so are lashing out at higher ed. Cut the BS and go back to school.

On the great writers without degrees. Sure, if you're a genius you don't need a formal degree. I doubt that goes for you.

[TwixVoy]

77. I am pulling in $60K at AT&T right now

No degree, and I am blissfully content with my career.

[EOTE]

87. I don't have a college degree and I hope to be pulling in 6 figures in a few years.

It doesn't take a degree to have a vast knowledge about something. And my knowledge isn't particularly focused either. I tear up on Jeopardy just about every night. College can be very good for some people, but it's not as important as it has been made out to be.

[dionysus]

81. why are you so militant about this?

:shrug:

[Freddie Stubbs]

49. The problem is that many employers want to hire someone with a college degree

Don't get a degree, and they employer will hire someone else who did.

[TwixVoy]

51. I see a trend that will change that

I think part of what we are looking at now with this massive economic decline is the loss of may jobs that supposedly required a degree when they really didn't.

I think the new employment situation over the coming years will be a MAJOR shift to hands on blue collar jobs in this country.... the ones that traditionally provided on the job training and no degree requirement. A lot of people with degrees will find themselves forced in to these sectors when their former job is outsourced or otherwise eliminated.

[whoneedstickets]

68. Yeah, manual labor is our future..

..really? I do think you need to read more. Maybe something by Robert Reich. The future of our economy lies in innovation, creativity and entrepreneurship. So you think America is set up if it becomes a nation of plumbers and network specialists? We should just let the Germans, Chinese, or Japanese take over as the designers, inventors, and engineers? Our most successful companies (Apple, Google, 3M, the drug companies) all thrive on product innovation. I bet just about everyone in those companies has a degree and the leaders all have advanced ones.

[TwixVoy]

78. Yes, I think that is the direction it is heading

You may be in denial about it.... but I think you have no idea how many jobs have been outsourced and will continue to be outsourced. Designers, inventors, and engineers are easy to outsource and have been outsourced in increasing numbers for years.

[whoneedstickets]

88. Designers, inventor and innovators cannot be outsourced...

Repetitive manual, bureaucratic or technical tasks that require little imagination and mostly rule following can be outsourced. But the guys who dream up and design I-pods, or new aircraft engines or write new screenplays or dream up new search engine algorithms --- you can't hand that off to a guy in India: hey come up with an original idea to make me money in this field.

[TwixVoy]

107. And why the hell can't you hand it off?

Are you aware most of Intels recent microprocessor designs were dreamed up in Israel?

[wolfgangmo]

54. II own a medical clinic

I am going to say strongly that if you are considering medical school that you think twice. The costs compared to the ever shrinking returns no longer make this an option unless you are one of the few with the personal connections to get into one of the high paying specialties (they still run the specialties like little kingdoms and boys clubs) then you will not make enough money to justify the psycho long hours you will work.

One must factor in the huge student loans. Medical school alone will add from 250 K to 500 K in student loan to your undergrad or masters degree. Which basically means that you will be in your late 30's (high grad at 18 plus 4 years BA at 22 plus 3 years for your MA at 25 plus 4 years med at 29 plus 3 residency at 32 - and most med schools are asking for life experience and NOT taking docs who have never had any outside jobs or experience so 35 to 40 is more typical. And all of that before you make ANY money in your life.

So you have maybe 25 years to: pay off your debt, buy a house, get a life, raise a family, save for retirement and still pay for all your staff and overhead. With the insurance companies squeezing doctors more and more, it is becoming almost impossible to get free and clear even if you are a doc. Me, I think if I had it to do over again I would become an electrician. Good clean work, decent pay, weekends off with time for your family, no research into patient care, no continuing education classes every month, no ... well you get the point.

[whoneedstickets]

22. Yeah, i suppose there is religion...

School of any kind isn't the only way to get educated, its just the most efficient.

[glitch]

55. Life experience, a library. You don't have to take a prescribed path.

Not that I have anything against college, I loved it. But it really isn't the only setting where ignorance can be defeated.

[TwixVoy]

21. You have accepted the lie that college MAKES YOU SMART

It is yet another lie. College does not make you smart.

When I worked at Target as a manager you know how many dumb asses coming straight out of college with a bachelors I had to work with? Half of them were utterly fu**ing clueless.

For example, the next line of management enough above me was some 23 year old who got the job straight away due to her bachelors. Part of our job as Target management was to analyze our sales numbers weekly on a report we pulled up on the computer.

It was EASY AS HELL to read. It was simple spreadsheet essentially. Guess what I had to do EVERY WEEK? Explain to her how to read it. I had to literally sit there with her and say "Ok this colum right here that says YTD Maturity shows our sales growth percentage as opposed to the same time last year... etc etc" She literally could not figure it out. I had to explain to her what the numbers meant literally every week for over a year. She had a bachelors degree and I had no degree what-so-ever. Glad to see college made her smart enough to read a simple spreadsheet.

Some of the smartest people in history never went to college.

I am amazed that at the amount of information readily available in this century (more than any other period in our entire history as a species) so many people are so damn ignorant and believe they need a bechelors and said degree will make them "smart". Here is an idea... crack a fucking book from time to time. Read a news paper. Exchange ideas with people on forums such as this one. Want to know how to do something? Go read about it, practice, and learn.

I work at a major telecom these days. I can wire a network interface device, work with twisted pair wires, send VDSL signals from point to point, wire service area interface boxes, and a ton of other things after just 6 months of on the job practice and reading on my own time. I am working next to people with degrees in telecommunications who can barely figure it the fuck out and actually CALL ME ON MY CELL PHONE during the work day several times a day asking me how to do something. And I am the one who has no degree at all. Go figure.

[whoneedstickets]

29. You're proving my point for me...I never said intelligent....I said not ignorant.

If you want to boost your ego by demonstrating you were smarter than a college educated person go right ahead. But I sure as hell would bet that if you were going in for surgery tomorrow you'd want your doctor to have a degree. I doubt you'd get on a plane if you were told that all the engineer were self-taught folks who skipped college but like to read books.

Save this populist anti-intellectual bullshit is for the Lou Dobbs crowd.

[OffWithTheirHeads]

9. And yet, college is free in Cuba. What a country.

[Dreamer Tatum]

20. How many Nobel winners do they have over there? nt

[Confusious]

90. Most of Europe has free college

Do I need to list how many Nobel winners they have?

[Dreamer Tatum]

96. Fine, compare us with Europe,but not an educational backwater like Cuba nt

[Greyhound]

10. The college loan program was turned into a corporate welfare program decades ago.

Initially implemented to ensure capable students without the means to get in as the profit motive crept into post-secondary education and tuition began to rise. Once Raygun stole the election converting it to a giveaway for the banks was a foregone conclusion.

[Cleita]

13. Wrong, wrong, WRONG!

The University of California system was founded as a public institution of higher education for the children of California to get an education regardless of their economic circumstances. Until Reagan got his tentacles into the system, you could attend tuition free unless you were out of the state or country. There is no profit to be made there. Systematic defunding has forced the university to impose tuition, increases in fees and other ways to finance it just so they break even. The emergence of student loans was a result of this. Time to roll back the Jarvis amendment in California for so many reasons besides this.

[WCGreen]

15. I thought that was the case...

Ohio State and all the other land grant colleges across the country are organized as non-profit institutions.

[whoneedstickets]

17. The only for-profit schools are the ones you see on TV...U of Phoenix, Devry

Virtually every other state or private school is a non-profit entity (even Harvard).

[TwixVoy]

38. The money is being sent to middle men and third parties

Christ all mighty how can some many supposedly smart people not see a money laundering scheme when it is so obvious.

College is a multi-billion dollar a year business. Most of the money is flowing to bankers and other corporations that USE colleges to make money. The colleges are willful participants, and they get kick backs. This is a fact. If banks were not so willing to cut checks I can guran-freaking-tee you 99% of colleges wouldn't dare raise tuition.

[TwixVoy]

27. Jesus H Christ - YES THERE IS PROFIT TO BE MADE!!!!

Just because the school system its self is not filling up bank accounts doesn't mean money isn't being funneled elsewhere. All those students are getting fleeced by FOR PROFIT STUDENT LOANS. Just because a 3rd party or middle man is making the money doesn't mean it's not for profit.

Fuck take a look at the banking partnership the University of Houston has, for example. They give all students a freaking STUDENT ID THAT IS A VISA CARD!!!!

Who are you kidding?

[Cleita]

59. The banks are making money on student loans and VISA, which I believe has

nothing to do with the fiscal administration of the University of California, which is what I'm talking about. So sorry that the University of Houston has become what is essentially privatized. Texans should be up in arms about this if tax money is still be used to fund it. I do not kid. Please read what my post is about before you get all indignant about it.

[tammywammy]

84. UH is using a Mastercard debit card for financial aid/reimbursements

It's not a credit card. It's similar to how the state pays unemployment benefits on a debit card. And students can choose to still receive a paper check as well.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

41. I completely agree, except

I think California has a special problem regarding the high cost of real estate. Property prices have come down, but it's still pretty expensive, enough to force a lot of poor and middle income people out of the home ownership market. I'm an old guy and have paid off the mortgage on my small house. Still, though I'm paying what equals about $300 a month in property taxes. When you factor in the high cost of utilities in California where I live and home owner's insurance, it's almost like paying the equivalent of a rent despite the fact I don't pay a mortgage. I feel sorry for those who have to pay all that and a mortgage besides. It's getting to the point where California simply isn't a livable place for the working poor or lower middle class.

I do remember the devastating effect Reagan's role as Governor had on teh U.C. system, especially on departments that were considered unimportant like those in the Humanities.

[Cleita]

44. I'm almost certain that we have more mansions per square mile

worth millions even in this depressed market than any other state except maybe on the east coast. Those people, many of them from out of state like John McCain or out of the country, like soccer star David Beckham and yet they only pay 1% in property taxes, so I think there is room for this.

[fascisthunter]

58. .

[Echo In Light]

23. While stripping/waxing floors at a lib arts college for 10 yrs, many a professor assured me...

That it's basically a racket for certain people who mindlessly fall in line w/the dominant flow of the mainstream thinking/action/inaction. Come to think of it I miss those long talks I'd have w/the two biology professors there who'd sneak me into their offices to smoke and shoot the bull.

[nadinbrzezinski]

24. Lets celebrate ignorance YAY!!!!!

Free clue, it was Reagan who did this to the system, and a few stiooopid things in the Cali, like we cannot get the tax raises we need because of stoopid republicans. They may be the minority, but hey that ain't gonna matter.

And let's electorate IGNORANCE YAY....

[TwixVoy]

34. If college truly got rid of ignorance

how can you explain all the ignorant bastards in our society today who have extensive college degrees? How come virtually all of the most greedy and heartless bankers and CEOs have expensive fancy degrees?

How come so many people who voted for bush and thought he was great had degrees? How come most of the ignorant talking heads on FAUX news have degrees?

Your claim that college eliminates ignorance is trash. It is a lie.

People eliminate ignorance by being open minded, thinking for themselves, and going out and seeking knowledge because they WANT TO and do it REGULARLY their entire life. Not just for 4 years.

[nadinbrzezinski]

91. Here is a clue for you

READ Jacoby's the Age of Unreason... or Hoffstader's book on Anti Intellectualism...

Your answer is in US Culture... and you are a perfect example of exactly what Jacoby and Hoffstader refer to as the ... distrust of book learnin' which is prevalent in the broader culture.

Here is another part of the puzzle... you go to bidness school... yes it is a college degree... it is NOT a liberal arts degree.

Oh and one more, many of the people who voted for bush DO NOT have expensive college degrees and share with you this distrust of book learnin'

Yes, you have a lot in common with those folks.

[Johonny]

66. I agree

Just because many people do not appreciate their college experience doesn't mean they couldn't of or shouldn't of. Some of my favorite classes in college were things like sociology and philosophy. Sadly most students did not pay attention or care for the classes. That doesn't mean they couldn't or shouldn't of. It's possible to be a perfectly functioning member of society without a college experience. Unless you are incredible at self teaching, their is nothing that can replace it. The number one thing people tell me when I tell them what I do is, man I wish I paid more attention or had gone to college.

I agree with the poster that the transforming of the University of California system to a for profit system is tragic, but I don't agree that most people don't potentially benefit from higher education.

[nadinbrzezinski]

92. Most people do benefit from book learning

and there is a reason why some folks (tend to be right wing and at times left wing populists) distrust book learning and universities.

And in the end we will pay a huge price for this as a society.

[DU GrovelBot]

32. ## PLEASE DONATE TO DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND! ##

This week is our fourth quarter 2009 fund drive. Democratic Underground is
a completely independent website. We depend on donations from our members
to cover our costs. Please take a moment to donate! Thank you!

[Yavin4]

37. My Favorite Is Law Schools

I worked in IT and in the legal field. IT has been hit hard by outsourcing. Yet, on many IT job msg boards, these people all believe that going to law school is superior to working in IT.

I've tried my hardest to inform them that law school is THE biggest sucker investment in education hands down. There are literally 20 or so large law firms that will pay out big salaries to new law school grads, but these firms only recruit from the most exclusive law schools in the country. Thus, only about 1% of ALL new law school grads will earn a salary that can pay off law school loan debt. However, ALL law schools charge about the same as these exclusive schools do.

In sum, if you go to law school, the odds are pretty high that you will carry around a debt that's comparable to a mortgage on a mcmansion in Southern California with the one huge difference being that you can get out of that mortgage debt through BK. As bad as things are for folks in IT, it' nothing compared to what law school grads have to go through. Yet, these fools are convinced that law school is superior to IT.

[historian]

63. thanks for that

Interesting you should say that. My daughter managed to get into northwestern in chicago considered one of the tops in the country and she only recently found out about that on graduating. Thankfully she has found a very good job with high wages but after taxes and all that she wont have much left over. Even with a 200.000 salary its going to take forever to pay off that 160.000 debt, and i feel so bad for her but she was obsessed with the money part of it and no amount of my trying to convince her otherwise helped.

[Yavin4]

85. Well, Good Luck To Your Daughter

Large law firms are downsizing like mad. There's a huge glut of attorneys on the market today.

Tell your daughter to pay off those loans as soon as possible.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

99. I've got the useless degrees but not the debt.

I have three degrees. My parents went to college and insisted that I go.

The BA in biology was useless -- from an expensive private school -- never got a job using that.

Went to law school at night while working full time at the courthouse, got the Juris Doctor -- from a highly rated expensive private school, never got a job doing that. Looked for a legal assistant job (after decades of experience as a court reporter/legal secretary) and got ONE interview in two years of looking.

I graduated on the pay as you go plan. Parents paid for 2 yr voc degree (the only one that helped me get a job, along with taking typing in HIGH SCHOOL) and for the 4 yr degree.
I paid for the law degree myself.

I am glad I got the liberal arts education, but if I was going to do it over again, I'd get an art degree, because that "hard science" degree and law degree never got me a job.

I was told that art and music were "not practical". That was bull. NONE of my higher degrees were practical, because employers are cheap bastards and don't understand how a degree can help you do your job better.


But hey, that large, framed certificate that says I have a "Doctor of Jurisprudence" plus $3 will get me a cup of coffee. It's so big I can barely carry it under my arm.

:wtf:


Schools that advertise -- private proprietary schools like UTI, DeVry, U of Phoenix, the Art Institutes, and many others, are a TOTAL RIPOFF. They are just a mechanism to funnel loan money to students that will be stuck with debt for decades, and may not get an education worth anything.


My husbo got canned from engineering programming, went back to school in 93. He was canned because Bill Clinton had been elected, and the owner just KNEW the economy would suck, so he better prepare for that. :grr:

So he went to the Art Institute and got a Video Production degree. He said he did not learn a damn thing he didn't already know from home recording/electronics/E.E. studies.


Result? They take his student loan payments out of his Social Security checks. Yes he is old enough to get Social Security. They also took it out of his takehome pay from his suckwad job he used to have that didn't pay the bills. I was real pleased to know that take home of $20K a year for somebody with two degrees in physics, had "discretionary income". :grr:

[Yavin4]

113. I Got Accepted into Georgetown, But I Went to American Univ Because They Gave Me Money

So, when I graduated, I didn't have much debt. I went to B-school at USC, and I got half tuition. Again, I was able to pay off my debt in 10 years. Neither degree helped me get a job. I took continuing education programs in programming and database management, and I got the best paying job that I have ever had at least for a while. Neither degree has helped me get work, but my meager IT skills did.

I was really, really, really disappointed in my graduate b-school. There was very little interaction between the program and the outside world. We spent all of our time studying cases written by the Harvard Business Review. I later learned that b-schools are judged on how well they imitate Harvard's business school, not on what's good for the students to learn. It was a complete joke.

[Nikki Stone1]

50. TwixVoy, the California master plan from the 60s was actually about education as education

It is this master plan that is being destroyed as we speak.

:(

[Cleita]

61. Thank you. The OP doesn't seem to understand that the parasite

profiteers, the bankers have nothing to do with the administration of a public university or college that receives tax money as all or part of their funding. The lack of funding due to tax cuts as evidenced in the UC disaster has allowed these parasites to feed off of the students because administration is no longer able to offer them a complete public education.

[Nikki Stone1]

93. Amen. And I really wish that instead of trashing California, people would try to help

What happens in California will soon happen across the country.

I'll put in a plug for a way to help at least one department here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=7051277&mesg_id=7051277

[Nikki Stone1]

95. And here is some info on the CA Master Plan for education that is now being murdered:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Master_Plan_for_Higher_Education

[glitch]

65. Yep - fulfilling Reagan's promise of a feudal California. Very intentional, IMO.

Guess who is the head of the UC Regents? Dianne Feinstein's husband Richard Blum

http://sfcue.org/uc_con.php
If UC has no money, how did they finance
these massive salary increases?
Consider that, if you get a pay cut.

Executive hires, raises, perks approved by UC Regents
in the July 16, 2009 Interim Actions (listed)

http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2008/03/03/uc

At U. of California, a Systemic Governance Crisis
March 3, 2008

For decades, the University of California has been held out as a model of how governance can and should work at a major university, with clearly delineated roles for the systemwide governing board, central administration, campus chancellors and faculty members.

How far the mighty have fallen.

The well-publicized compensation scandal that badly embarrassed the 10-campus California system in 2006 revealed one aspect of the university’s governance dysfunction, but masked a larger and potentially more damaging one. The full extent of UC’s trouble was laid bare last month in two highly critical reports from the university’s accreditors and in interviews with more than a dozen current and former university administrators, faculty members, and others close to the institution.

Together, they describe a situation in which the Board of Regents, and particularly its chairman, Richard C. Blum, have at times run roughshod over the university’s central administration, engaging in practices -- and formally altering policies -- in ways that blur the historic line that has separated the regents’ overall governance responsibilities from the day-to-day management and administration of the UC system.

[Nikki Stone1]

94. Feinstein's hubby is head of Regents? Jesus, no wonder. This is a murder of a great school system

With the murderers in positions of authority.

Yeah, I'm gonna promote my own cause here, sorry. But it is one way to help:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=7051277&mesg_id=7051277

[glitch]

100. The murder of a great school system AND the sacking and looting of the (formerly) fifth largest econ

economy in the world.

Don't even get me started on La Mole DIFI.

[Nikki Stone1]

101. You should come over and give your opinion

here: oldelmtree.com

[anonymous171]

74. College should be free. nt

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

103. Why? n/t

[aikoaiko]

82. Public university tuition is free in Georgia as long as you graduate HS with a 3.0

Plus you get 300/semester for books. Its called the HOPE scholarship.

You can move to GA, pay for your first year and then get the same HOPE scholarship for the remaining three years if you have a 3.0 college GPA.

You don't have to go broke to get a decent college education.

[Bigmack]

89. I got paid to go to college....

... the GI Bill. Of course, I really earned that money!

That was the old GI Bill.

When I got back from the Southeast Asia War Games, I got the GI Bill every month, the state of Michigan paid my tuition and books, and the NDEA loaned me money... payments and interest of 2% to start after graduation, and 10 years to repay the loan. I taught, and that reduced the loan principal by 10% per year of teaching up to 50%.
$3500 loan... halved by teaching = $1750 repaid over 10 years

Quite simply, the rich no longer want the middle and working classes to get college educations, so they are just pricing it out of reach for most Americans.

Kiss the scattered remains of the middle class goodbye!

[tammywammy]

97. Well it's definitely not a lie where I work

I don't have a degree but I'm just an admin assistant. The people I work with do, but then they're mostly engineers. Sure there are some positions that don't require a degree, like the people that work in the manufacturing shop, but I would say most jobs do. The good news is that they'll pay the rest of my education, so I can finish my bachelor's in finance and move to a better position within the company. Then they'll pay towards a masters as well.

[Blue_Tires]

98. ttt

[mike_c]

102. let's be fair and have some full disclosure, please....

The OP is currently recovering from a lost career in retail sales-- which tanked. Thank you for your thoughts about the worthlessness of higher education, Twix!

Twenty years ago I made a decent living as a skilled tradesman (I was a process film stripper and printing pressman). Not much job security, but I was always able to find jobs-- not so sure about that trade now, but I'm assuming that if I'd stayed in it I'd have changed as new skills became necessary.

Now I'm a research scientist and university educator. That career change would not have been possible without college and graduate school. More to the point, I LOVE my work now-- it's challenging, rewarding, and MUCH better paying, even as a public employee. But even more important, I use my best skills-- my intellectual skills, my love of problem solving, and my curiosity-- to pursue topics that really interest me, every working day. It is a JOY to get up in the morning and go to work. I don't mean my job is always wonderful-- every job has it's drawbacks-- but my work is my avocation and I love it.

[dionysus]

104. it explains the bitterness and militant anti-intellectualism...

[dysfunctional press]

105. those csi-type curriculums are a total joke...

that's why i'm going to become a game designer instead...

[AlphaCentauri]

106. Since kindergarten those students are indoctrinated to be part of the free market

no wonder they can understand that

[Echo In Light]

110. Precisely!...it's so deeply entrenched in the daily round of life, people can't face the ugly truth

Numerous social and professional inducements ensure blind adherence.

[AlphaCentauri]

112. Students think there is only one way to do things n/t

[n2doc]

109. University funding issue is separate from Loans

The reason tuition has gone up is that states have systematically reduced their support of public education. Universities used to get the vast majority of their operating funds from state revenue, and tuition was low. But after Reagan, the state support was cut back, and Universities were left with no choice but to raise tuition (cutting faculty or student numbers was essentially not allowed). We are essentially privatizing our university systems, so it is no surprise that they are priced like one.