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arbusto_baboso Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-19-09 07:05 PM
Original message
I'm having an e-mail argument with a wingnut and need some ammo.
We're both vets, him Vietnam era, me more recent. He insists that Rethug administrations are better with military pay and bennies. I know differently, but I need some hard data and links to get him to STFU.
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gratuitous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-19-09 07:09 PM
Response to Original message
1. If he brought up the subject . . .
The short answer is "prove it."
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abluelady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-19-09 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #1
19. I've Started Doing That Exact Thing
I don't try to show them the truth because they won't believe what they don't want to believe. But when asked to "prove it," they have nothing to show.
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Sebass1271 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-19-09 07:10 PM
Response to Original message
2. here is a link from a DU veteran who
says he was not being treated as good under a republican administration. This is from 2006

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2987648
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Hassin Bin Sober Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-19-09 07:10 PM
Response to Original message
3. Bush admin tried to cut combat pay for Iraq ..
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0815-09.htm

Troops in Danger Zones No Longer Face Pay Cut
Pentagon drops plans for scheduled rollback

by Edward Epstein

The White House quickly backpedaled Thursday on Pentagon plans to cut the combat pay of the 157,000 U.S. troops in Iraq and Afghanistan after disclosure of the idea quickly became a political embarrassment.

The Pentagon's support for the idea of rolling back "imminent danger pay" by $75 a month and "family separation allowances" for the American forces by $150 a month collapsed after a story in The Chronicle Thursday generated intense criticism from military families, veterans groups and Democratic candidates seeking to unseat President Bush in 2004.

"We support extending the pay provisions," White House spokesman Jimmy Orr said late Thursday after a day in which Bush's political opponents bashed him for what they said was a callous attitude toward combat troops who are still suffering casualties.


more at link
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rurallib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-19-09 07:11 PM
Response to Original message
4. I googled "republicans don't support veterans" and oh my goodness
lots of great stuff.
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20score Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-19-09 07:11 PM
Response to Original message
5. From the 40's through 2008
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TheCowsCameHome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-19-09 07:12 PM
Response to Original message
6. If true, it's because they start so many damned wars.
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-19-09 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. That's probably how they get the numbers...
We spent $X on our military, and the Dems only spent $Y.
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Sebass1271 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-19-09 07:13 PM
Response to Original message
7. I also found this from the Democatic Policy Committee
where they list that since Democrats gained control of the Senate, they have taken significant steps to begin to reverse six years of the Bush Administration’s failed policies and broken promises to the nation’s veterans. Under Democratic leadership, the Senate has taken action to enhance VA health care services, improve veterans’ access to critical benefits, and decrease waiting times and bureaucratic obstacles facing veterans at the VA.

http://democrats.senate.gov/dpc/dpc-new.cfm?doc_name=fs-110-1-85 - this is most recently.

Maybe another DUER have better info than i do.
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alstephenson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-19-09 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #7
14. My "significant other" (hate that term) is a Vietnam Vet.
He was unable to get into the V.A. system until 2006 when the Democratic Congress fully funded V.A., which opened the door for many vets that had been shut out previously. During his intake physical they discovered he had non-Hodgkin s lymphoma. He was treated and has fully recovered, thanks to the great people at the V.A. If he hadn't been able to access V.A. medical benefits he probably wouldn't have known he had cancer until it was too late.

I know, anecdotal, but things really changed for the better for Vietnam vets in 2006.
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-19-09 07:13 PM
Response to Original message
8. Go to Google News...
And search for homeless vets. There have been a lot of articles lately, with lots of statistics.

Good luck! It's a worthy debate... I have a Vietnam era vet cousin who is teetering toward our side of the aisle... he still hits the ground when he hears loud noises, and the propaganda had a hold on him too. But he's getting better and starting to understand.
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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-19-09 07:13 PM
Response to Original message
9. Here, this should settle the argument
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Hassin Bin Sober Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-19-09 07:14 PM
Response to Original message
10. Bush opposed pay hike as un-necessary
http://www.armytimes.com/news/2007/05/military_payhike_whitehouse_070516/

White House: 3.5 percent pay hike unnecessary

By Rick Maze - Staff writer
Posted : Wednesday May 16, 2007 17:34:13 EDT

Troops don’t need bigger pay raises, White House budget officials said Wednesday in a statement of administration policy laying out objections to the House version of the 2008 defense authorization bill.

The Bush administration had asked for a 3 percent military raise for Jan. 1, 2008, enough to match last year’s average pay increase in the private sector. The House Armed Services Committee recommends a 3.5 percent pay increase for 2008, and increases in 2009 through 2012 that also are 0.5 percentage point greater than private-sector pay raises.

The slightly bigger military raises are intended to reduce the gap between military and civilian pay that stands at about 3.9 percent today. Under the bill, HR 1585, the pay gap would be reduced to 1.4 percent after the Jan. 1, 2012, pay increase
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Sebass1271 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-19-09 07:23 PM
Response to Original message
12. here is one on Health CAre Benefits and budge increase for 09
Edited on Thu Nov-19-09 07:24 PM by Sebass1271
and 2010. This Fact Sheet outlines the legislative initiatives Senate Democrats have advanced since the start of the 111th Congress.

Senate Democrats led the effort to pass a Fiscal Year 2010 Budget that provides a record increase for veterans’ health care and services. The Budget Resolution includes a funding increase of more than 11 percent for veterans programs above the Fiscal Year 2009 level. According to veterans’ service organizations, the budget authority “surpasses” the recommendations they provided in their policy and budget blueprint this year, known as the Independent Budget. This investment truly reflects our commitment to ensure that veterans get the care and benefits they have earned. Specifically, the Budget Resolution will:

Continue to provide historic increases to VA. In 2007, the first year under Democratic leadership, Congress appropriated the biggest increase to veterans’ programs in the history of the Department. Congress went even further in 2008, providing a $4 billion dollar increase, $2.8 billion above President Bush’s budget. This year’s budget resolution would continue Congress’s strong commitment, by including additional funding for VA to expand research and improve treatment for mental health, post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD), and traumatic brain injury (TBI). The increased funding for health programs critical to meeting the needs of returning Iraq and Afghanistan war veterans.


Expand access to VA health care for modest income veterans. The Budget Resolution includes a provision that would end the previous Administration’s ban on enrolling modest income veterans in the VA health care system. According to the VA, this measure would effectively bring more than 500,000 additional veterans into the VA system by 2013.

Ensure efficient, timely, and predictable funding for veterans health care. The Budget Resolution includes an advanced funding provision, which will allow Congress to provide funding for veterans’ medical care one year ahead of the regular appropriations process. By providing advance appropriations, the Budget Resolution will put an end to funding delays for the VA and ensure timely and predictable funding for the veterans health care system, critical to ensuring that veterans have access to quality health care.<1>

Senate Democrats are on the verge of passing Fiscal Year 2010 funding legislation to implement this historic budget increase for VA health care and services. The Senate is currently considering S. 1407, the Military Construction and Veterans Affairs and Related Agencies Appropriations Act, 2010, which, in line with the Budget Resolution, would provide for a record increase in funding – $2.5 billion above last year’s level – for critical veterans programs and services. The legislation includes $53.2 billion in discretionary funding, $150 million above the President’s request as well as $55.8 billion in mandatory funds. For the first time, the bill provides for advance appropriations to fund medical programs for the Department of Veterans Affairs for Fiscal Year 2011, to ensure a stable and uninterrupted source of funding for medical care for veterans.

Specifically, the bill would:
Expand the Rural Health Initiative and the Rural Clinic Initiative, effectively improving access to medical care for veterans in rural and highly rural areas;
Ensure the VA has the resources to meet the health care needs of veterans returning from Iraq and Afghanistan;
Increase medical and prosthetic research in key areas, including mental health, TBI, spinal cord injury, burn injury, polytrauma injuries, and sensory loss;
Fund vital long term care programs for aging veterans as well as severely wounded combat veterans from the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan;
Provide increased funds for health care and support services to assist homeless veterans as well as establish a new initiative to combat homelessness among our nation’s veterans;
Expand access to VA health care to disabled veterans earning modest incomes;
Address critical maintenance and repairs as well as fund new construction at VA hospitals and clinics; and
Allow the VA to hire 1,200 new claims processors to improve the timeliness of claims processing.<2>

http://dpc.senate.gov/docs/fs-111-1-145.html
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sarge43 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-19-09 07:23 PM
Response to Original message
13. Here's one on college benefits
This should help.

http://www.usnews.com/articles/education/2008/06/17/the-recent-history-of-military-college-benefits.html

I especially love that one spin that Eisenhower shot down increases because of his supposed antipathy to people who signed up just to get the bennies. He once specifically stated he went to West Point for the free college education.
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tabasco Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-19-09 07:27 PM
Response to Original message
15. Obama's first budget gave VA more money than it's received in 30 years.
I never missed a pay raise under Clinton.
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The_Casual_Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-19-09 07:28 PM
Response to Original message
16. A cross & holy water is known to do the trick.
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Sebass1271 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-19-09 07:29 PM
Response to Original message
17. i think his argument is weak. it's pretty simple to find the truth..
maybe he is using it as a shield? he is most likely and want to be a right wing neocon.
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EmeraldCityGrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-19-09 07:40 PM
Response to Original message
18. I will never forget when Se. Patty Murray (D-WA.)
was denied a mere 3 billion for the VA and was denied by the Republican Congress.

"In March 2005, after hearing reports from various veterans groups citing long lines for care Senator Murray requested $2.85 billion in supplemental spending to meet the increased demand. In the months after Murray's request, the VA continually misled Congress about the existence of a budget shortfall.

In April of 2005, Secretary Nicholson wrote that he did not "foresee any challenges" that would preclude the VA from providing "timely, quality service." The Secretary also testified in a June 2005 Senate Veterans Affairs Committee hearing that the VA had "an adequate level right now" for mental health. However, those on the front lines of the VA's effort to provide care have not echoed the Secretary's confidence in the Department's ability to provide for Veterans. In fact, as recently as earlier this year, Frances Murphy, M.D., Undersecretary for Health Policy Coordination at our Department of Veterans Affairs, noted that some VA clinics could not provide mental health or substance abuse care to veterans, or if they do, "waiting lists render that care virtually inaccessible."


Lots more info here" http://www.vawatchdog.org/senatecvademsnews/senatecvademsnews09-20-06.htm
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madmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-19-09 08:46 PM
Response to Original message
20. My step son was in Bosnia, came back was going to re-up with the promise of
$30,000 and sniper school at NTC , changed his mind because bush canceled enlistment bonuses. This was in 2001.
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Toucano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-19-09 08:58 PM
Response to Original message
21. You probably don't need any more, it's so damn obvious.
But in case you do there's this.

http://www.duckworthforcongress.com/veteransissues/militaryUpdate/BushPicksWrongTime.htm

Military Update: Bush picks wrong time to oppose benefits

By Tom Philpott, Special to Stars and Stripes
Pacific edition, Friday, July 13, 2007

Talk about lousy timing.

With President Bush’s popularity scraping bottom in opinion polls, with U.S. casualties rising in Iraq in a force surge that has stretched soldier tours to 15 months, the Bush administration on Tuesday said it “strongly opposes” key military pay and benefit gains tossed into the fiscal 2008 defense bill.

Initiatives the administration opposes include:

* A military pay raise for January of 3.5 percent, versus 3 percent endorsed by the White House.
* Lowering the age-60 start of reserve retirement annuities for reserve component members by the length of their future mobilizations.
* Expanding eligibility for Combat-Related Special Compensation to servicemembers forced by combat disabilities to retire short of 20 years.
* Directing pharmaceutical manufacturers to provide the Department of Defense with same price discounts for Tricare retail pharmacy network that are provided already on medicines dispensed from base pharmacies.

The administration also grumbled that the Senate intends to block for another year Tricare fee increases for under-65 retirees and dependents.

The objections appear in a “Statement of Administration Policy” from the White House’s Office of Management and Budget delivered to Senate leaders as they opened floor debate on the defense authorization bill.

A day later, Senate Republicans, at the White House’s urging, blocked amendments to the bill that would have shortened Iraq tours for U.S. ground forces and slowed frequency of wartime deployments. Republicans said the amendments really were aimed at changing administration policy in Iraq.

Here is more on Senate provisions that the White House opposes:
Pay raise

Like the House, senators favor a 3.5 percent military pay raise for 2008 versus the administration’s proposed 3 percent to match private sector wage growth as measured by the government’s Employment Cost Index (ECI). The White House calls the extra half percentage point unnecessary and notes that basic pay has jumped by 33 percent since 2001. The added cost of the bigger raise, $2.2 billion through 2013, is money “that would otherwise be available to support our troop,” the OMB letter said.

The White House will lose this one. Congress intends to approve the ninth consecutive military raise to be set at least 0.5 percent above private sector wage gains, continuing to close a perceived “pay gap” with civilians.

However, a Congressional Budget Office report released in late June suggests no such gap exists. When housing allowances growth and associated tax advantages are weighed, the pay gap for the enlisted force, which advocates say started in 1982, actually was closed by 2002. Since then, the military pay gap has become a “pay surplus,” even excluding improvements in special pays and bonuses, CBO says.

Military associations dispute the CBO findings and support congressional efforts to continue to pass special military pay adjustments. The House in May voted to sustain the string of ECI-plus-a-half-percent military raises through 2012. The Senate bill deals only with the 2008 raise. When House-Senate conferees work a final compromise bill later this summer, the CBO findings could persuade conferees to adopt the Senate pay raise plan.
Tricare increases

Dr. S. Ward Casscells, the new assistant secretary of defense for health affairs, has said he intends to work with Congress and service associations on more modest Tricare fee increases for under-65 retirees and their dependents than have been pushed so far by the Bush administration. The OMB letter doesn’t reflect that air of compromise.

By not allowing the Tricare fees and deductibles to rise as the administration planned, OMB chided, the Senate is adding $1.86 billion — again “funds that would otherwise be available to support our troops.”
Reserve retirement

The Senate bill would lower the start of reserve retirement at age 60 by three months for every 90 days a reservist or Guard members is recalled after the change is enacted. The administration opposes this move, arguing it fuels growth in military deferred compensation and overall entitlement spending and will “only marginally” improve career retention among for Reserve and Guard members.
CRSC for Chapter 61 retirees

The Senate bill would expand eligibility for Combat-Related Special Compensation to certain retirees forced by their disabilities to leave service short of 20 years. Only those disabled by combat injuries would be eligible. CRSC payments would be set by plugging into the usual retired pay formula the smaller number of years that disabled retirees have served.

The House voted to expand CRSC only to Chapter 61 retirees who served at least 15 years and have combat-related disabilities rated 60 percent or higher. House-Senate conferees will have to reconcile the differences. The administration opposes such “piecemeal changes to disability compensation,” said OMB, noting that several commissions are studying disability pay. Congress should await a comprehensive reform package.

Sens. Jim Webb, D-Va., and Chuck Hagel, R-Neb., offered an amendment WednesdayJuly 11 that would have assured active duty servicemembers as much time back home as they spend deployed. Reserve component members would have been guaranteed a three-to-one, home-to-mobilization ratio. Republicans blocked the amendment from coming to a full Senate vote.

Hagel offered a second amendment to limit soldier deployments to Iraq to no more than 12 months and Marine deployments to no more than seven months. With 60 votes needed, the measure was defeated 52 to 45. Forty-four Republicans and Sen. Joe Lieberman, I-Conn., voted against it.

To comment, e-mail milupdate@aol.com, write Military Update, P.O. Box 231111, Centreville , VA, 20120-1111 or visit: www.militaryupdate.com
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arbusto_baboso Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-19-09 09:58 PM
Response to Original message
22. Thanks all, for your contributions. It ended up.....
with him escalating his name calling of me more and more, and basically playing the "more patriotic than thou" card, over and over.

I called him a coward, and invited him to come find me. Then I blocked his e-mails.

Not how I wanted it to end, but he was massively pissing me off, and I didn't want to continue banging my head against a brick wall. Facts just don't have any eefect on that sort.

Oh, the best part? He kept claiming he was an "independent and Ron Paul supporter". Bullshit. When someone makes a big point of saying that over and over, you know they're a rethug, but just too much of a pussy to admit it. "Independents" don't spew ultra-right talking points the way this asshole did.
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sarge43 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-20-09 09:04 AM
Response to Reply #22
24. Thank you for starting this thread.
It generated solid info which will come in handy. This 'talking point' won't go away and the info will tie a can to its tail.

Bookmarking.
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LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-19-09 10:23 PM
Response to Original message
23. Here ya go. "Girly-men repubs; soft on defense, always destroying the defense budget"
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