I never thought I'd find it necessary to say this here:

[cali]

There is never anything good about vigilante justice. It doesn't benefit society. It harms it, and that's true even if the recipient of said "justice" is guilty. Before yesterday, I would have thought that would be an uncontroversial statement.

Vigilante "justice" is abhorrent. It's dangerous. It caters to the worst mob impulses.

Nothing, but nothing, justifiable about it.

Ever.

[Le Taz Hot]

1. Context?

:scratchhead:

[cali]

2. this thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=7042802&mesg_id=7042802

[Warpy]

8. Wow.

This sort of thing is never justified, whether it's an honor killing in the Middle East, a lynch mob in the old south or west, or a dad killing a son who is as damaged as this kid was. It's just so wrong on so many levels.

Intensive therapy might have turned this kid around and saved him. He was young enough that the behavior wasn't set in stone yet.

We'll never know. His father took every possibility away from him.

[redqueen]

16. I have to stop reading this stuff.

It's just too heartbreaking, for so many reasons. :(

[SemiCharmedQuark]

50. I have to think that part of it is just the medium. People like to play tough on the internet.

[customerserviceguy]

3. That's not vigilante justice

Now, if the father of the three year old girl shot the boy, that would be vigilante justice.

This is just a sense of shame at what this man caused to be brought into this world. It's still fucked up, of course, but to confuse it with vigilante justice, which is justice done by people whom the regular justice system is not serving, is to unfairly slur vigilantism.

[cali]

4. Of course, it's vigilante :"justice", and as for what you're describing

which is essentially the same thing, it's absolutely disgusting. There is no way to "slur" something as repugnant as vigilante "justice".

[tekisui]

5. It was his daughter.

[customerserviceguy]

52. I didn't read the linked story fully

so I stand corrected.

[cali]

9. The father of the three year old girl did kill the 15 year old. He was

the father of both children.

[EFerrari]

46. Vigilante justice is an ironic term. And I don't think it is possible

to slur a slur.

[Angry Dragon]

48. He was the father of the three old girl

[uppityperson]

49. Your definition of "vigilante justice" is far to limiting.

"justice done by people whom the regular justice system is not serving" is way too limiting. It is "assumed justice done by people beyond the regular justice system".

Are you seriously saying you consider all vigilante justice to be good? Vigilantism is going around and past and ignoring the law.

[customerserviceguy]

53. I didn't say it was good

but I attempted to define it. As I said above, I didn't read the whole story. I guess I shouldn't post just before I leave for work.

[stray cat]

6. Maybe not - but you can understand it in some cases - not condone it but understand it

It is better to let someone go free who murdered a love one than to do something yourself if the court fails - thats tough for some people

[cali]

11. sure, I can understand that people do horrible things. That doesn't make

it any more justifiable.

[rucky]

7. Why do you hate Batman?

[trumad]

10. People just venting behind a keyboard.

It's rather normal I think.

[elocs]

12. DU is as susceptible to mob mentality as anywhere else.

I have noticed the tendency here to abhor violence and vigilanteism in the abstract but to embrace it in the specific and those are the times when DU seems to join hands with freeperville and sing "Kumbya". There are those who preach about the rule of law, but that evidently is on a case by case basis.

[Jester Messiah]

13. Depends on what other justice is available.

If VJ is all that remains... well. Let justice be done.

[cali]

14. Whatever else it is, it's not justice.

And flawed as our criminal justice system may be, vj is not an acceptable alternative.

[Jester Messiah]

36. Acceptability varies depending on who you ask.

Those wronged will certainly have a different view of what is acceptable or not than an uninterested party. It is very easy, from our vantage point of comfy chairs, keyboards, and internet anonymity to decry what is acceptable and what is not. Aggrieved parties with nowhere else to turn and no justice in sight likely won't give a tinker's damn about what we find acceptable.

[Shell Beau]

56. Those are the people who should decide.

Emotions can/do block logic which is why (I am guessing) the dad killed the child in the first place. See?

[pipi_k]

15. Vigilante justice is all fun and games

as long as it's done to someone we don't care about.

[peacetalksforall]

17. Kids are designed to be taught. The boy never had a chance to learn.

The man took on humanity's Bible version of God.

From the looks of it.
But, we don't know much about this case, yet.
Did the father help him with any life lessons in the puberty years before he shot him?

The mother and daughter now go it alone.

The teacher in the father got an F.

[notesdev]

18. I'll controversially disagree here

The rise of vigilante justice, as a pattern rather than isolated incidents, is prima facie evidence that the formal, legal system of justice is not meeting the requirements of the society.

In the sense that it provides a clear warning sign of the need to rehabilitate the criminal justice system, and occasionally even rights a wrong that will not be righted in any other way, there are good aspects to the phenomenon.

If our legal system were functioning properly it would be a moot point. But we have a justice system that punishes a single act of selling cocaine (just an example, there are many other examples) worse than raping a child.

The question as to why the feeling that there is no justice to be found under the law, and people must therefore take is one that deserves a full investigation.

[cali]

19. yes, the criminal justice systyem needs to be reformed

but I don't see the rise of vigilante "justice"- if indeed there is a rise- making the case for it.

[notesdev]

22. hypothetical musing

If some disgruntled individual with a sniper rifle started popping off bank executives, would that be justice or injustice?

[cali]

23. seriously???? it would be an obscene miscarriage of justice. duh.

[notesdev]

24. Isn't it also unjust

that those bankers are committing ongoing and massive crimes and getting away with it?

What's preferable, the vigilate's solution, or letting them not only get away with their loot, but allowing them to continue on an ongoing basis?

[cali]

31. Of course, but why do you think one injustice justifies another injustice

and having lunatic snipers running around shooting people who may or may not be guilty is worse in my book. And it's the gov't that's condoning the looting by the bankers. Maybe you think someone should just kill Obama. After all, it's his administration.

Nutso "thinking" on your part.

[notesdev]

34. Is it?

Given the complete violation of the social contract, natural rights re-assert themselves. The social contract is an agreement among the people of that society to relinquish their natural right to violence in self-preservation, in exchange for the protection of the law.

We agree that the protection of the law is absent. What then, morally, restrains the individual from reclaiming that right to defend his life and property from those who would take it by force or by fraud?

[Jester Messiah]

38. I agree with notesdev.

If the legal system is complicit in perpetrating injustice, to the point of shielding the unjust from the rightful redress of the wronged, then is it not a person's right to take the matter into their own hands? Or are we to be slaves to whomever gathers enough coin to purchase the legislator's pen?

[anigbrowl]

45. I'm poorer than i would like to be, and have decided that you are to blame.

you act like you're on the side of the little guy, but I have decided that this is just a cover for your nefarious activities which include keeping me down. Now, are you going to hand over what is rightfully mine, or am I going to have to take it over your dead body?

Lest anyone be confused, this is a rhetorical question. I have no intention of actually following through on the claims above, which are designed to point out the flaw in the other poster's argument.

[anigbrowl]

43. Logical fallacy there

you say 'those bankers are committing ongoing and massive crimes and getting away with it'. Which bankers, which crimes? What qualifies you to be judge and jury on these matters? You're just claiming omniscience and substituting your opinions for fact - it may be a popular opinion, but that doesn't make it factual - and treating these non-facts as if they were equivalent to a criminal conviction, which conveniently allows you to claim that anyone shooting executives is just carrying the sentence.

It is not a fact that 'those bankers are committing ongoing and massive crimes and getting away with it'. It's an assertion, one you are entitled to make, but which the accused are entitled to defend themselves against in that basic civil institution of a fair trial.

[uppityperson]

51. Thank you, agreed.

[paulsby]

35. bingo

i see no evidence (it may be true, but i have not seen any data to support it) that there is a "rise" in vigilante justice. certain cultures (mafia comes to mind) have used it frequently for decades. in the case of the mafia, there are areas, like charlestown in boston, where the streets are pretty safe. nobody dares attack a woman walking alone, for her purse or anything else, for example, in certain neighborhoods. thugs don't really fear the police. they do fear the mafia. i went to high school with a mafia boss' son, fwiw. pretty cool kid, actually.

[pipi_k]

30. The slippery slope of "miscarriage of justice"

This goes back some years...

When OJ Simpson was acquitted of the murders of his wife and her friend, many people, including myself, were convinced there was a gross miscarriage of justice.

A few years later I read a rather controversial book (author whose name I can't remember right now, but he's a famous attorney) which made a case for OJ's acquittal NOT being a miscarriage of justice at all. In fact, this guy said the system worked exactly as it was meant to...meaning that people are presumed innocent until proven guilty, and since the prosecution failed to prove OJ's guilt, the system worked just fine.

I have muddled feelings about this, of course. My gut tells me OJ did it.

But...as is only fair...the prosecution failed miserably to prove he did it. That's what the legal system of this country is based on, isn't it?


So one man's miscarriage of justice is another man's "the system works the way it's meant to".

Fair? Not fair? I don't know.

I only know that once the legal system has had its say, it's not up to the general populace to exact its own justice. Life has a way of coming back to bite people in the ass anyway...all we have to do is wait long enough.

[Shell Beau]

57. I know some people think OJ was aquitted fairly based on the law,

but probably more feel a murderer got away with it. I think that is a bad example.

[anigbrowl]

40. Garbage. This person didn't even attempt to find a legal remedy.

you might as well say 'I've lost confidence in the government, so I'm just taking the law into my own hands from now on'. Well, even the best justice system in the world (wherever you believe that to be) is going to fail some of the time. so basically what you're offering is a catch-all excuse to do whatever you want and blame society o the government if you get caught at it.

[Fumesucker]

42. What percentage of the population should be punished in order that our system "work"?

We already incarcerate a higher percentage of citizens than any other nation on this planet?

What would make you happy, what would make you think justice is being done?

[Tommy_Carcetti]

20. Agreed.

And it shouldn't be a controversial statement.

[Uncle Joe]

21. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, cali.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

25. Agreed.

eom

[JohnnyLib2]

26. Amen and agreed.

[JohnnyLib2]

27. Think of the murder rates if every

person outraged by rape, by murder, by sexual abuse, and so much more went directly to the perp and killed them.

Horrifying, as is this story.

[pipi_k]

32. And imagine if the victims of the "justice" weren't even guilty

Back in the 80s there was a famous case involving a family that ran a daycare...three members of the family were convicted of child molestation.

The Amirault family


http://mysite.verizon.net/vzex11z4/amirault.html


It really was a tragedy. I can't even imagine how much more tragic it might have been had some outraged parent decided to get "justice".

:(

[tonysam]

28. A big kick and recommend

I can't believe the posts about the father who murdered his son and the posts justifying a teacher carrying a concealed weapon to school, especially a school just a couple of blocks from the county jail and TWO police departments!!!!

[asdjrocky]

29. Emotion is a strange thing.

I don't believe in the death penalty, but I do have to say that if someone hurts my daughter, he better hope the cops get to him before I do.

What that man did was terrible, I understand the emotion of someone wanting to tear this guy up, but we live in a place where we have what passes most of the time as justice. I say let the courts deal with him.

I don't believe in vigilantism, but I do understand the emotion of it all.

[DU GrovelBot]

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[TexasObserver]

37. Agreed.

[Laelth]

39. Agreed.

Though I have never noticed you having trouble with, or worrying about, speaking your mind.

:dem:

-Laelth

[Scout]

41. you'd really puke if you spent much time in the gungeon lots of "righteous shoot"

bullshit bravado in there.

one track minds ... fear, fear, kill it, kill it is the ONLY answer.

[Fumesucker]

44. You and I disagree a lot cali, but this time I agree with you.. Recced..

[EFerrari]

47. Agreed. n/t

[Sebastian Doyle]

54. There's sick shit all over that thread

Some excusing the actions of the pedophile, others excusing murder, and at least one cloaked comparison of pedophilia to homosexuality.

The whole thing's a wasteland. :puke:

[branders seine]

55. NEW YORK CITY?

Git a rope.

It works once in awhile.

[latebloomer]

58. totally agree

I was shocked at some of the responses to that horrific, heartbreaking story.