Lowering the Bar: Kindergarten Recruitment

[proud2BlibKansan]

How old is old enough for students to be approached by military recruiters?

High school? Junior high? Fourth grade? How about ten weeks into kindergarten?

Last week at the dinner table, my five-year-old son announced blithely, "Soldiers came to school today." He then added, "They only kill bad people. They don't kill good people."

He made the announcement with the same levity he uses in recalling the plot line of Frog and Toad or a Nemo video.

My wife and I looked at each other incredulously.

"Soldiers came to school? What do you mean?" I asked.

He repeated himself and then I remembered - it was "Career Day" at school. My son mentioned a bus driver too, but it was the soldier who stuck out in his mind. When my wife asked if the soldier was cool, he nodded yes.

more . . . http://www.truthout.org/1117091

[unhappycamper]

1. This is wrong on so many levels.

"Kindergarteners - children with Dora the Explorer and Spiderman backpacks and bedrooms full of stuffed animals who are still working to master their A-B-C's - are now targets for early conditioning by the US military."

on edit to add from the link:

Whether you find the Army National Guard visiting kindergarteners utterly disturbing or perfectly normal, each of us needs to ask ourselves, in an era when our government spends trillions of dollars supporting wars with no end in sight, at a time when we can't even fund our schools or public services at a minimum standard and only begrudgingly support health care reform, what kind of society and future are we building for our children?


You should tell your kids that the military's job is to kill people.

Let me say that again - the military's job is to kill people.

[proud2BlibKansan]

3. Our 5th graders had their DARE graduation yesterday

They always get a bunch of trinkets, including a t-shirt. This year's t-shirt is in camo. I about puked. One of the teachers said "Oh these shirts are so cute! And camo is all the rage with these kids!"

I said "But these are 10 year olds."

Then I had to walk out of the room.

[immoderate]

74. They need to blend in with the forest...

I don't trust DARE kids.

--imm

[vadawg]

83. lol yup blend in whilst working their meth lab...

we had a bust recently and both the cookers were wearing dare shirts, its become a kinda underground uniform for a lot of the tweakers and dealers...

[grilled onions]

2. This Seems Wrong In So Many Ways

Schools should educate to "construct" not destruct. When such sensitive issues as whether or not soldiers kill only bad guys a parent should be nearby to answer the questions that no recruiter is going to address. Five years old youngsters have plenty to do with all those violent numbers and letters crashing around their heads. They don't need such a quick intro into the violent adult world they are headed for down the road.

[proud2BlibKansan]

4. We should never glorify the military to kids

I heard not long ago that we have had 5 wars since GI Joe hit the market in the 60s.

[joeglow3]

30. Really?

GI Joe is to blame for this?

[proud2BlibKansan]

39. It's a sad coincidence

[Zywiec]

5. Maybe next year they can invite the Peace Corp.

That will really get the kids fired up!!

[proud2BlibKansan]

6. Like that is going to happen!?

LOL

[One_Life_To_Give]

7. It was Career Day

Sometimes a Cigar is just a Cigar.
At 5yrs old, one visit isn't going to stick with the kid. Nor is it going to satisfy some recruiters current monthly quota.
Probably done because it's easy for the school to arrange and recruiters get to list a Public Affairs mission on their reports.

[proud2BlibKansan]

11. Of course it's easy to get recruiters to come to elementary schools

They also have a video game they use with kids that teaches them killing people is fun.

[One_Life_To_Give]

15. Compared to Duke Nukem

and the thousands of First Person Shooters. Yeah it's a "Me Too" on the Band Wagon, but hardly compares to "Ghost Recon" and all the other far more popular titles out there. It's quite the stretch to assume that the current lack of respect for life is caused by "America's Army".

[proud2BlibKansan]

16. Huh?

Sorry I don't know what you are referring to.

[One_Life_To_Give]

20. Computer Games

Duke Nukem is a now very old game. Classified as a First Person Shooter. Where the game player has the visual of being the person (Hence First Person) and for Duke it was generally running around blowing away whatever got in his way (Aliens and Pig Cops in Duke 3D) using Shotgun, Chain-Gun Cannon, RPG etc.
Ghost Recon has been advertised recently and is another in the same Genre. Although todays sounds and graphics are alot more detailed and they are probably killing "Terrorists" instead of Aliens.
By comparison the version of the Armys Game "America's Army was very tame and apparently hasn't taken away from the customer appetite to spend money on Ghost Recon and other similar games.

[joeglow3]

25. Or Call of Duty: Modern Warfare II

You know, the game where you are a terrorist and need to set off a suicide bomb.

[Moosepoop]

17. Probaby another child's parent.

I doubt the school had any arrangement with anyone except a child's parent volunteering to come to his kid's class on Career Day. It sounds like at least one other parent did too, a bus driver. I say kudos to any parents who take the time to do this.

Career Day appearances at that grade level are usually done by parents, at least in my experience. The parent in question was in the National Guard. Despite the child's assertion that "soldiers" came to his school, it turned out that there was only one soldier in his classroom, along with a bus driver and perhaps others that the kid didn't mention.

I agree, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

[proud2BlibKansan]

23. We hardly ever have parents come to our Career Day

We have no way to know if this was a parent or not.

[joeglow3]

26. We don't even know if it really happened

I am not going to shit my pants and accuse people of crap without knowing the facts. And my son's school has a ton of parents that show up for career day.

[proud2BlibKansan]

41. You are accusing the author of making this up?

Contact Truthout.

[joeglow3]

42. I am not saying I think they made it up.

All I am saying is me making that claim is as irrational as you assuming they are talking about how great it is to kill the enemy.

[proud2BlibKansan]

46. Making what claim?

[joeglow3]

56. Some responses

Post 3 - "This year's t-shirt is in camo. I about puked. One of the teachers said "Oh these shirts are so cute! And camo is all the rage with these kids!"

I said "But these are 10 year olds."

Then I had to walk out of the room."

-What is wrong with Camo? I know multiple people who hunt and eat all the food they get. I even know one family who hunts to get food that they cannot otherwise afford.

Post 4 - "We should never glorify the military to kids"

The military has done plenty of good things. Most people would not debate the need to fight some wars. Granted, we can look at recent conflicts and conclude they are unnecessary and wrong. However, this is not the fault of the soldiers, but their leaders.

Post 10 -

"Putting them on the same level as police and firemen is wrong.
Soldiers kill people."

-You ignore that police also kill people.

Post 23 - "We have no way to know if this was a parent or not."

-Yet, you proceed as if we know it is not a parent (even going so far in post 11 as to say "it's easy to get recruiters to come to elementary schools").

Post 36 - "Not all parents are as conscientious as you are"

-This is in reponse to a parent saying they do not like cops, but do not let that judegment prevent their kids from learning about the good that is accomplished by police. Yet, you refuse to show the same respect for people in the military.

Post 45 - "There are quite a few veterans in the peace movement who have nothing good to say about recruiters. I don't trust them in the least."

-And, I bet if I told you my wife and a friend were both raped by unknown black men on different occasions and, thus, I don't trust black men in the least, you would, rightfully, call me a racist.

In short, I would be more than willing to stand side-by-side with you to oppose the wars of the past 40 years. However, I would never paint all soldiers with the same broad brush you do. I also belive in an all volunteer force and believe a military is a necessity and still does much good around the world.

[IdaBriggs]

67. The story says they were given stuff from a recruiter (not a parent).

They probably got them like they sometimes get police and fire folk - call up and ask if they want to come speak.

Not everyone wants their kids to aspire to serve in the military (just like not everyone wants their kid to be a priest or nun). Personally, I would not be ready to discuss the duties of military people ("killing" in particular) at that age. I wish they had left it at "protecting" and let the parents explain what that meant.

[izquierdista]

8. Sparta

The boys of Sparta were obliged to leave home at the age of 7 to join sternly disciplined groups under the supervision of a hierarchy of officers. From age 7 to 18, they underwent an increasingly severe course of training.

Spartan boys were sent to military school at age 6 or 7. They lived, trained and slept in their the barracks of their brotherhood. At school, they were taught survival skills and other skills necessary to be a great soldier. School courses were very hard and often painful. Although students were taught to read and write, those skills were not very important to the ancient Spartans.

Only warfare mattered. The boys were not fed well, and were told that it was fine to steal food as long as they did not get caught stealing. If they were caught, they were beaten.

They boys marched without shoes to make them strong. It was a brutal training period.

The typical Spartan may or may not have been able to read. But reading, writing, literature, and the arts were considered unsuitable for the soldier-citizen and were therefore not part of his education. Music and dancing were a part of that education, but only because they served military ends.

[proud2BlibKansan]

12. +100

[seabeyond]

9. i have no problem with this at all. my kids have had police, army, firmen all kinds of people

go to their school when they are young and never interpreted it as a recruitment. i know the kids have an interest and if there is a decorum, i dont mind the interaction at all for my kids. i would encourage them to ask questions. adn i would ask question of kids when they came home.

i have no problem with my kids respecting or admiring the soldiers either.

i would also keep kids balanced with being informed, the good bad and ugly.

[proud2BlibKansan]

10. It's glorifying the military

Putting them on the same level as police and firemen is wrong.

Soldiers kill people. That's what I told my kids at this age. I also refused to let them have GI Joes or other war toys.

[seabeyond]

13. i dont see it that way. nt

[proud2BlibKansan]

14. I have been a peace activist since I was in high school

This crap makes me ill. Physically ill.

[Craftsman]

18. "The most effectual means of preserving the peace is prepareness for war."

A quote of George Washington

[proud2BlibKansan]

24. "War is a racket"

Smedley Butler

[Craftsman]

27. "Only the dead have seen the end of war"

Plato

[tjwash]

31. "the dead know only one thing, it is better to be alive"

Pvt Joker...

[proud2BlibKansan]

49. "You can't be all that you can be if you're dead"

On a t-shirt I often wear.

[Craftsman]

28. It takes 2 to make peace, but only 1 to make war.

Unknown to me

[Diclotican]

34. Craftsman

Craftsman

Orginaly it was an latin provers who goes something like this. If you want to make peace, be sure to have an army ready to make war.

Diclotican

[Craftsman]

38. It's the truth either way, yes peace is far more preferrable but the next war is coming

we just do not know when

[Diclotican]

65. Craftsman

Craftsman

You are right there.. But the point here is maybe to prepare for a war, have enough military strengt to stop advesaries to attack you.. Even the romans was orginaly werry carefull with their military forces.. Until they could have the riches of South Italy they was carefully with the military might, and often resolved disputes in diplomatis termes.. Most of the orginal "latin city states" was coming into the fold, not by military might from Rome. But rather from diplomatic means, where tha city states was given many rights, inncludet the right to have citysienship as Romans itself.. A right who most City states, and also when the roman empire expanded to most "known parts of the world" was given as a gift to persons who the romans was beliving have had the right to have it.. In the end all free men was given that right, but that was most for taxing purposes, and not becouse the roman emperors just was into the idea of giving all free men the same right as peopole who was born in Rome, of Roman ancestery..

To have some military might is the best way to end most wars.. But compared to the rest of the world, US is an gigant, and is using a horrible ammount of money compared to the next 20 nations in the world.. And even after world war two, the US have been involved directly, or inderectly in so many wars, where your treassary have been wasted in wars US for the most part had no interst in going into.. That be Vietnam in the 1960s or Iraq in 2003..

Diclotican

[seabeyond]

21. i have a problem with cops. i would never teach boys disrespect. i see their worth. i appreciate

the job they have, and the good jobs they do. and we talk about the abuse.

i have issue with a lot of lawyers. i can appreciate their part and validity in this society.

i know the need for a military. i know the sacrifies these people make. i know the hard work. and i can value and appreciate.

i too am anti war.

but i am into the reality of the good bad and ugly and teaching my boys the reality of....

btw... i dont glorify. i dont glorify anything. there is no one, nothing that ranks to the level of glorification..... ever, anywhere. in all the perfectly imperfect, glorification doesnt work for me because that takes away truth, and walking in dishonesty is an illusion. not much into creating illusions to live in.

[proud2BlibKansan]

36. Not all parents are as conscientious as you are

[seabeyond]

40. they should be. that is their job. and if they cant.... then we have to help along the way with

the kids. the teachers are part of the whole. even the very soldiers who have kids, and are talking to them.

[Odin2005]

19. Uh, it was career day.

:shrug:

[proud2BlibKansan]

22. They are five year olds

When we had Career Day at my school last year the Roto Rooter guy went to the kindergarten class. They loved him.

I was on the committee that set it up. As a staff we decided our kids were too young to invite any mitary people to our Career Day. But if they had come I can assure you they wouldn't have been sent to a kindergarten class.

[joeglow3]

29. Did the Roto Rooter guy talk about the bloody tampons that he unclogged from toilets???

Likewise, I am sure the "soldier" did not talk about the number of people he shot and relate seeing his friend's head blown off.

[proud2BlibKansan]

43. Cause finding bloody tampons is exactly like killing people!!

:eyes:

[joeglow3]

55. The point went RIGHT OVER YOUR HEAD

There are parts of people's job that is able to be discussed with kids and parts that are not.

[vadawg]

72. rofl +10000 ive done the career day thing and your right

we just sanitize what we do, even with the older kids, its all about knowing your audience. Cant believe that anybody cant see career day for what it is, a chance for the kids to see adults in all walks of life and jobs...

[tjwash]

32. The world needs ditch diggers too

[DU GrovelBot]

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[TwilightGardener]

35. What utter bullshit. There's nothing wrong with a soldier talking to kindergarteners.

He's not recruiting them, any more than a nurse or an electrician is "recruiting" when they show up at school to tell kids what they do. My AF husband has been to school on my sons' "career" days, and HE certainly wasn't recruiting little kids. Is he supposed to hide in shame at what he does for a living, and not let kids see him in uniform?

[seabeyond]

37. isnt this kinda offensive and bothersome to you? i hear ya. my kids

had soldiers talk to them on different ocasions, and we had a respect for these men. and an appreciation. and kids easily could put it in a proper perspective.

your point

Is he supposed to hide in shame at what he does for a living

is the heart of it

thank you twilight for your post.

regardless of the problems we have today, even with our military. a proper perspective is important

[TwilightGardener]

44. Thanks. Whether or not anyone approves of the current wars, we

still need a military, always need people to serve in it--acknowledging this fact, and letting children see that it's really just another job that ordinary citizens do, doesn't "glorify" war. Might even take some of the luster out of it--when my husband used to get the inevitable "What plane do you fly?" from little kids (because everyone in the Air Force flies planes, of course!), he'd have to explain that he actually flew a desk and a computer screen, and the kids would go, "meh".

[proud2BlibKansan]

48. Kindergarteners are 5 years old

I can't believe this isn't offensive on several levels. But then I fought to get the recruiters out of my kids' high school. Kindergarten is just WAY too young, IMO.

[seabeyond]

53. military people are a part of this country as is the police, doctors, nurses, teachers

they are part of the community. they are fathers and mothers, sisters and brothers. theya re a part of our world.

you are seeing them as recruiting these children. i am not. i am seeing them share their job, their day, how they feel about what they do.

age appropriate.

[proud2BlibKansan]

45. If I had a child in this kindergarten class I would have raised hell

I fought the recruiters in my kids' high schools too.

You are naive if you don't believe they will recruit kids as young as possible. I caught them calling my house when my oldest son was 13. When I told him never to call again, he started calling when my son got home from school and one day he was waiting for him in our driveway.

Five years later, next kid, same story.

These recruiters are relentless. Several have left the military and told stories of lying to kids. There are quite a few veterans in the peace movement who have nothing good to say about recruiters. I don't trust them in the least.

[seabeyond]

47. i sign NO on recruiting papers every year. my boys have never gotten a call or been approached

will be interesting to watch as they get older if anything happens.

[proud2BlibKansan]

51. My oldest is now 31

There were no rules allowing us to opt him out when he was in high school. I kept calling to report this recruiter until I talked to some higher up officer who assured me the recruiter would leave my kid alone. Then 5 years later same recruiter started in on my younger kid.

[seabeyond]

54. well, then it seems like this new rule is working. that is good to hear. thanks. nt

[TwilightGardener]

50. I see recruiters as a necessary element. Gotta interest high-schoolers, that's

who joins the military, for the most part. I remember sitting through their presentations at my high school from sophomore year on, and I felt bad for them, because no one I knew was going to join up--they don't convince that many, that's why they have to try so hard to meet their quotas. It's a tough job, a tough sell. But it's necessary for our defense IF we want an all-volunteer force--there HAS to be an outreach, and anyone who finds it distasteful and unnecessary is living in a la-la land of marshmallows and sunshine. Yes, there are some unscrupulous ones that will lie and promise the moon, but that's where parents step in and make sure of the facts before letting their kids sign on the dotted line. The recruiter my husband went to was pretty honest and straightforward. Edit to add: again, they are NOT recruiting kindergarteners. That's a figment of someone's overheated imagination.

[proud2BlibKansan]

52. I was told they weren't recruiting 13 year olds

when I knew for a fact that my 13 year old was indeed being recruited.

Sorry, my experience has taught me not to trust these people. They do some very unscrupulous stuff to meet their quotas.

[EFerrari]

68. Recruiters showing up in kindergartens on Career Day is bullshit.

Recruiters are not your parents. They are paid to bring bodies in to sign up. They are PR disseminaters, just like Scientologists or Amway salesman.

Five year olds can't even process what a soldier does for a living let alone deal with propagandists.

[vadawg]

73. yeah cause this recruiter is going to get extra kudos for recruiting 5 year olds

rofl, do you really believe hes trying to get bodies by signing up 5 year olds....

[dflprincess]

86. I agree but I think career day in Kindergarten is bullshit -

unless you just have cowboys and ballerinas show up.

Can't we let kids be kids for a little while?

[redqueen]

57. "They only kill bad people. They don't kill good people."

Fucking liars.

Shameful... if they're going to let these people come to school they should at least not let them spew propaganda and lies at the kids while they're there.

:puke:

[seabeyond]

58. age appropriate. cops will say, they only shoot bad people, more like, they only arrest bad people

they will not talk to the children about the ooopses, or the abuses. nor should they

doctor will not tell about amputating the left arm when the right should go.

pharmacists will not tell about giving out a wrong prescription

lawyers will not talk about defending a rapist and attacking the raped on stand.

[vadawg]

75. yup its about what you do for a living not for discussing every policy, decision etc

hey im mike im a fireman i put out fires and save cats from trees, you dont day hi im mike and i had to pick up body parts today from a road traffic accident. Its all about giving a general idea of your day to day job without making it sound like the worst thuing imaginable...

[Ignis]

64. Only bad people lived in Fallujah, don'tchaknow?

Only defending our borders, of course! :patriot:

[Throd]

59. So my father should never had shown up on career day?

He served in the USAF for 22 years. I was very proud of him then and still am now. When I was 5, would you have told me that my dad was a bad person and a bad influence in the classroom?

[proud2BlibKansan]

61. Nope. Inappropriate for 5 year olds.

[Throd]

63. How exactly is that inappropriate for 5 year olds?

[tabasco]

79. Says you.

No soldiers = surrender to fascism.

Your naivete and utopianism is just as stupid as the crap on FR.

[vadawg]

80. christ on a mop, i agree with you :) first time i think

[immoderate]

78. That depends...

Was your dad a recruiter? Did he make the rounds of kindergartens?

--imm

[Cid_B]

60. Big freaking whoop...

If anyone thinks I am going to sit in shame on career day when it comes around for my (future) children they have another thing coming.

I'm bringing pictures which will most likely include M-ATVs ( if this was held tomorrow), MK-19s, pictures and videos of Afghanistan that will range from night patrols to handing out teddy bears.

I refuse to be ashamed of what I do and to hell with the overblown sensitivities of a few whiners who benefit from the effort I and my fellow Soldiers provide.

Just remembered. I have done this before in a German class room... 9th graders i think... It was a mixed bag. Some thought it was fantastic and really got into it and others seemed concerned that I was going to leap across a desk and body slam them for some reason.

[Odin2005]

70. Kids think millitary stuff is cool, and I have no problem with that.

Hell, I still think military stuff is cool. The Naive Pacifists need to get a grip. I liked playing with toy soldiers when I was little, do they want to ban those?

[vadawg]

81. yup, lets be honest the military, cops and firefighter always have the coolest gear at career days

the salesman, realtor, etc etc booth is total pants compared to the cruisers, fire trucks and humvees.

[Norwood]

62. I think its kind of a stretch to say he was a military recruiter

The 1-800-GO-GUARD.com ruler was a bit much, but I have my doubts it was with the intention of recruiting a kindergartner. It was career day, there were probably a few other professions represented there as well. I'm guessing he was probably talking about what he does and what not, the kid asked some questions and the soldier decided to give him the ruler as a gift. If he gave the kid a recruitment brochure then that would be entirely something else.

Maybe I'm wrong, dunno but this seems like a non story to me.

[EFerrari]

69. The story says recruiter, not parent.

ETA: Actually, rereading, the author says recruiter. But the point is, five years old is much too young to process what "only killing the bads guys" means.

[vadawg]

77. nope my four year old even understands that, he tells people that i shoot bad guys for a living

he can easily differentiate the good guys and the bad guys just from watching scooby doo and ben 10.

[EFerrari]

89. Dividing the world between good guys and bad guys is not processing

what that really means. Apparently, not even for some adults.

[ddeclue]

66. Lighten up Francis... there's nothing wrong with somebody's dad, a soldier, coming to career day.

any more than any other career.

[varelse]

71. A military recruiter at a kindergarten - go to the link, people, that's exactly what this was

The soldier had given my five-year-old a gift. From his yellow backpack, he produced a six-inch, white, plastic ruler with big, bold, red letters reading "ARMY NATIONAL GUARD" next to a waving American flag and below that www.1-800-GO-GUARD.com.

[TwilightGardener]

76. Jesus Christ, do you SEE 5 year olds in basic training?

Recruiters are the local public face of the military in many areas that don't have a significant military presence. They're not child snatchers, they're not criminals. This guy was giving out rulers--SO THE FUCK WHAT???? Is that going to shape a kid for life, getting a freebie ruler with an Army logo? Is he going to save that phone number for 13 years? Would you be opposed to a plumber giving out pencils with his company logo on it? Holy crap, teh stupid.

[vadawg]

82. rofl, yup thats the best point, even if he was a recruiter how many 5yr olds can he sign up

we all know if you go to the county fair the military booth is always the most popular with the kids because the stuff is cool and especially nowadays real interesting with all the tech they have..

[varelse]

85. Chill

there is no stupid here. Just a completely different view of this situation than your own.

[lib2DaBone]

84. There are NO jobs. As a Country.. War is the only export we have to offer...

[The Gunslinger]

88. Sad but true.

[anonymous171]

87. Some fascist fuck probably allowed a police officer to come too