The JFK assassination still haunts us....

[Postman]

Thom Hartmann had his co-author of "Ultimate Sacrifice" and "legacy of Secrecy", Lamarr Waldron, on the show yesterday (in the 2nd hour of the program).

JFK was killed by the Mafia and assets of the CIA because of Bobby's war on the Mafia and the Kennedy plan for democratizing Cuba(via a coup), which did not include the restoration of Mafia run casinos, bought-and-paid-for dictatorial leaders and the corruption associated with all of that- (which chapped the ass of the CIA)

Sunday night at 8 o'clock eastern time on the Discovery Channel there will be a program on titled "Did the Mob kill JFK" addressing this issue..

http://www.amazon.com/Ultimate-Sacrifice-Robert-Kennedy-Murder/dp/1582434239/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1258559558&sr=8-1

http://www.amazon.com/Legacy-Secrecy-Long-Shadow-Assassination/dp/1582434220/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1258559558&sr=8-2

[the other one]

1. How did the mafia control the Warren Commission?

Bears, Beets, Battlestar Galactica!!!

[avaistheone1]

4. Did your daycare center get out early today?

[Octafish]

7. Mafia did not have the power to order the Secret Service to stand down.

The mafia did not have the power to control the investigation.
The mafia did not have the power to control the cover-up.

Certainly, it looks like the mafia was in bed with CIA, but there's more to show another center of power had their hand in the assassination.

[FormerDittoHead]

15. ...and the mafia had no control over J. Edger Hoover?

Just wondering, because you left that out, and how false it would be, and how misleading it was for you to leave that widdle bit of info out.

[Octafish]

17. Sure seems like J Edgar ''What Mafia?'' Hoover was controlled. I've given this some thought...

"Plausible Deniability" is one prominent political family's motto:

Poppy Bush brought up JFK Assassination and "Conspiracy Theorists" at Ford Funeral



Thanks for reminding me, FormerDittoHead. Didn't mean to exclude that one "widdle bit of info."

[FormerDittoHead]

28. Good stuff. I didn't know where you were going at first. n/t

[Octafish]

21. I'd like to know who controlled the Warren Commission, along with some other things.

For instance:

A fact curiously missing from American history and any mention of the Warren Commission

Know your BFEE: Corrupt Craftsmen Hoover and Dulles

A Short History of Conspiracy Theory

Please let me know what they're missing, FormerDittoHead, and I'll make sure that it gets into my Journal. Thanks, again!

[avaistheone1]

24. FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover's attempts to control the Warren Commission's inquiry

and outcome is undeniable in these Warren Commission Exective Session documents. Note the sarcasm:

http://www.jfklancer.com/Investigations.html

[the other one]

18. I know you are but what am I?

[tech9413]

12. As much as I love Hartmann, I sometimes wonder if he's not

a CIA disinformation asset. The possibility that the assassination was done by the Mafia is credible. The idea that Mafia power could influence the operations of government over decades seems much less plausible. Like any good lie, it has to have some basis in fact. The facts we have are not untainted and can't be considered infallible.

I'll watch the TV show and maybe even buy the book but I expect that I'll think the same thing later.
There is a "shadow government" and they might include Mafia, CIA, economic elites and multinational corporations. It's no different than it's been for millenia. People with power and wealth may do anything to assure it can be maintained.

[avaistheone1]

16. How could you both love Hartman and believe he is a CIA disinformation asset?

[elocs]

27. Who gives a schrute? n/t

[avaistheone1]

2. I really think Legacy of Secrecy puts all the pieces together.

In my opinion it is the best book to-date on the JFK assassination. Legacy of Secrecy actually documents how the RFK and MLK assassinations are tied. The research is impeccable. The book reviews on it are excellent as well. The reviews can be found at: http://www.legacyofsecrecy.com/

[Echo In Light]

5. Thanks for posting

[Echo In Light]

10. "The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the public is...

... an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country." ~ Edward Bernays

"The modern susceptibility to conformity and obedience to authority indicates that the truth endorsed by authority is likely to be accepted as such by a majority of people, who are innately obedient to authority. This obedience-truth will then become a consensus-truth accepted by many individuals unable to stand alone against the majority. In this way, the truth promulgated by the propaganda system - however irrational - stands a good chance of becoming the consensus, and may come to seem self-evident common sense." ~ David Edwards, author of Burning All Illusions

[G_j]

55. going to have to read this

sounds excellent
thanks,

[timeforpeace]

3. "No one ever went broke thinking up the most bizarre conspiracy theories imaginable"-Freud O'Bigguns

[Octafish]

8. Yeah. Like Robert F. Kennedy and Lyndon Johnson and Richard Nixon.

A few more off the top of my head:

J Edgar Hoover
Victor Marchetti
Jean Paul Sartre

Lots more.

[avaistheone1]

9. "timetoeducateyourself"

The Final Report of the House Select Committee on Assassinations presents the HSCA's findings in the murders of both President John F. Kennedy and Reverend Martin Luther King, Jr. The HSCA found a "probable conspiracy" in the JFK assassination, but was unable to determine its nature or participants (other than that Oswald was still deemed to have fired all the successful shots). In the King case, the HSCA similarly found that James Earl Ray assassinated Reverend King, but that there might have been a small-scale conspiracy involved.

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/contents/hsca/contents_hsca_report.htm

[Sebastian Doyle]

6. I agree with Thom Hartmann 99% of the time.

This issue is definitely among the 1%. The only "mafia" that killed JFK is the one based in Kennebunkport.

[avaistheone1]

11. And you base your conclusion the mafia was not involved on what?

[Sebastian Doyle]

20. Well, let's see....

George HW Bush - Known to be in Dallas on 11/22/63, but "can't remember where he was".


Richard M. Nixon - Attending a Pepsico board meeting in Dallas on 11/22/63. Pepsi used to buy a lot of sugar from a Cuban plantation owned by the Bush Crime Family. Nixon himself owes his entire career to the Bush Crime Family.

Jack Ruby - association with Nixon and the Bush Crime Family goes back to 1947.

E. Howard Hunt and Frank Sturgis - CIA thugs working under Poppy Bush, initially arrested by Dallas police, and were likely the shooters from the "grassy knoll".

[avaistheone1]

23. More about Sturgis and the Mafia

In an article published in the Florida Sun Sentinel on December 4, 1963, James Buchanan, former reporter for the Pompano Beach Sun-Sentinel, claimed that Sturgis had met Lee Harvey Oswald in Miami, Florida shortly before the assassination of John F. Kennedy. Buchanan claimed that Oswald had tried to infiltrate the Anti-Communist Brigade. When he was questioned by the FBI about this story, Sturgis claimed that Buchanan had misquoted him regarding his comments about Oswald.

According to a memo sent by L. Patrick Gray, acting FBI Director, to H. R. Haldeman in 1972: "Sources in Miami say he (Sturgis) is now associated with organized crime activities". In his book, Assassination of JFK (1977), Bernard Fensterwald claims that Sturgis was heavily involved with the Mafia, particularly with Santo Trafficante and Meyer Lansky activities in Florida.

The Rockefeller Commission of the U.S. Congress in 1974 investigated Frank Sturgis and E. Howard Hunt in connection with the 1963 assassination of President John F. Kennedy. Specifically, it investigated allegations that E. Howard Hunt and Frank Sturgis were CIA agents and were present in Dallas at the time of the assassination and could have fired the alleged shots from the grassy knoll.<3> Some support for Hunt's involvement came from Kerry Wendell Thornley, who believed he had conversed with Hunt (who Thornley claimed used the alias "Gary Kirstein") on numerous occasions from 1961 to 1963 regarding plans to assassinate John F. Kennedy. Newsweek magazine reported and printed photographs of three men, including two supposedly resembling Hunt and Sturgis, who were detained at the grassy knoll shortly after the assassination. The Newsweek article stated the official reports that the men were released and were only "railroad bums" who would find shelter sleeping in the boxcars of the trains located near the grassy knoll. According to Newsweek, the men were released without further inquiry.

According to the 1975 Rockefeller Commission report, Hunt testified that he had never met Sturgis before they were introduced by Bernard Barker in Miami in 1972. Sturgis testified to the same effect, except that he did not recall whether the introduction had taken place in late 1971 or early 1972. Sturgis further testified that while he had often heard of "Eduardo," a CIA political officer who had been active in the work of the Cuban Revolutionary Council in Miami prior to the Bay of Pigs operation in April 1961, he had never met him and did not know until 1971 or 1972 that "Eduardo" was E. Howard Hunt.<4>

In a deathbed statement released in 2007, Hunt named Sturgis as one of the participants in the JFK assassination.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Sturgis



There are hundreds of Mafia tie-ins with the assassination and the characters you mention. I think this new book "Legacy of Secrecy" really nails it.

[Postman]

26. The Mafia didn't act alone in this...

A Watergate "plumber" hired by Nixon, Bernard Barker, was part of the assassination. He was of Cuban ancestry...and was part of the the Cuban Secret Police under Batista....

[Sebastian Doyle]

30. And who did all those Cuban exiles work for?

The Bush Crime Family & the CIA.

[Postman]

32. Well yes.

I agree with you.

[WI_DEM]

13. I've long believed it was the mafia. Afterall the money they gave JFK in 1960 and he double crossed

them when Robert Kennedy began the war on the mob. They put a contract out on him. Ruby had mob connections,too, and he killed Oswald to keep him quiet.

[Postman]

25. According to Thom Hartmann....

Yes, the Mafia DID contribute to Kennedy's election campaign in 1960 but they contributed much more heavily to Nixon. Under Eisenhower, Nixon was given the responsibility of the overthrow of Castro to which Nixon worked hand in hand with the Mafia due to the Mobs connections in Cuba.

You have to be able to understand how these things work. Its called real politik. The Mob is my enemy one day but their my friend the next due to common interests that benefit both parties but to different ends...

Come on guys....think about it for a minute. Aren't there law enforcement officials dealing drugs in order to penetrate larger operations?

[kentuck]

14. I think that is very close to the truth...

With a few politicians involved in the assassination also. He was a threat to the status quo.

[Bitwit1234]

19. They might have been there to get Oswald pull the trigger

but I said the day it happened and I say today, with all my heart I think the republicans were involved. I think Connelly got shot by accident and did you notice very very soon after that he jumped over to the republican party.

[WI_DEM]

22. Actually he jumped over the Republican party in 1973 when he was being groomed by Nixon

to be the GOP nominee in '76. But Connelly served another term as a Democrat as Governor of Texas and supported Hubert Humphrey (at least publicly) in 1968 and was a "Democrat for Nixon" in '72--he headed that.

[Peace Patriot]

29. I recommend James Douglass' book, "JFK and the Unspeakable: Why He Died And Why It Matters."

It's a much clearer and truer understanding of that assassination, than that the mafia did it. JFK was challenging the use of nuclear weapons and also US proxy wars (Vietnam, in particular), at the time of his assassination, against a wall of opposition from the "military-industrial complex" (the CIA, the Joint Chiefs, all the war profiteers--who thought we could "win" a nuclear war with Russia if we struck while we had the advantage in missile superiority).

JFK likely would have been reelected by a big majority on a strong (and genuine) peace platform in 1964. LBJ won one of the biggest victories in presidential history on a platform of "peace" that same year. He was lying, of course. But JFK would not have been. He had opened backchannels to Krushchev and Castro to negotiate an end to the "Cold War" and total nuclear disarmament. He was also trying to negotiate "neutral" status for Vietnam in the "Cold War" (as had been done for Laos), when--a month before his own assassination--the CIA assassinated the president of South Vietnam, on whom JFK had pinned his hopes for a peaceful detente in Vietnam's civil war. Further, he had negotiated the first restraint on the use of nuclear weapons (the "Nuclear Test Ban Treaty")--behind the CIA's back, with Krushchev--and did all this--his turn toward peace (precipitated by his having faced Armageddon, during the Cuban Missile Crisis)--against the total opposition of the CIA and the Joint Chiefs, using backchannel contacts.

Douglass chronicles all of this, in great detail, with voluminous documentation, and also tackles the assassins--the CIA--in the same way, with compelling and convincing documentation and analysis.

Douglass approaches this matter from a spiritual perspective. He is a long time Catholic Worker, and his book was published by the Maryknoll Fathers last year. (He intends to write two more--on RFK and on MLK.) He uses the correspondence of Thomas Merton (famous anti-nuclear war writer--a Trappist monk) with Ethel Kennedy (Bobby's wife), to set the context of JFK's transformation from a typical "Cold Warrior" to a genuine advocate of world peace--and his intention to end the extremely dangerous military situation and pending nuclear holocaust, through disarmament and fair, non-military competition of the two opposing economic systems--capitalism and communism. In other words, he changed--and Douglass details that change. JFK was mid-change--in the middle of this transformation--when he was cut down. (That--and CIA skulduggery--are why there are contradictory reports about what he wanted to happen in Vietnam, for instance.) But he was so popular, and peace was such a popular idea, and his efforts to get around the CIA and the Joint Chiefs were so clear, that they couldn't risk letting him live. The war profiteers had to justify themselves, in order to loot us blind. Peace was not in their deck of cards, except as a joker--a disgusting lie--the lie LBJ told during the 1964 campaign. But JFK was sincere, and that was the problem. And he had the people with him (as LBJ's lying victory for "peace," the following year, amply demonstrated.)

The "Unspeakable" of which Douglass writes is both the unspeakable horror of nuclear war that JFK had faced, during the Cuban Missile Crisis, with only Bobby on his side in refusing to nuke Russia, and the unspeakable--buried, corrosive, debilitating--horror of the CIA killing our president. Three days after JFK was murdered, LBJ said, "Now they can have their war." He was speaking of Vietnam--a war that had only one purpose, war profiteering at the cost of two million lives in Southeast Asia and the lives of over 55,000 US soldiers.

JFK's decision not to nuke Russia was the most important turning point in human history, and of the history of life on this planet. He made the decision blind--not knowing what we now know about even a limited nuclear exchange, that--as Carl Sagan has since explained, in his book, "The Cold and the Dark"--will kill all life on planet earth within months. The Joint Chiefs told him that it would kill most Russians (millions of people) but "only" 300,000 Americans, on the east coast of the US (in Russia's retaliation). He shrank from them in horror at the human cost. He did not know of the greater cost. They were oblivious to this slaughter. He was not. And this experience--of coming so close to such a horror, and of their obliviousness to it--changed him. That's Douglass' story. And they killed him for it--for having a conscience, and imagination, and for being able to change--which Douglass also spells out very convincingly.

I have always thought the CIA did it, but I shied away from the details--like so many people--and buried this wound very deep. It's time we faced it, and not with sidelights like the mafia's involvement, or the anti-Castro Cubans. They were just tools. Our own government did it. Their reason couldn't be clearer. We have been ruled over by war profiteers ever since, and our democracy has become mere shadow play propelling us from one war to the next, and to another doom--one that JFK could not have envisioned--the demise of planet earth from our use of the fossil fuels that these war profiteers seek to monopolize. Individual national doom for the US and our once great and prosperous democracy. And the doom of all life on earth.

If we can't face this unspeakable thing that our own government did--killing a president and all hopes for a peaceful world--how can we face the other things that we need to face, to restore our democracy and help save our planet?

We need to face it. I am trying to do so. And it is not easy.

:patriot:

[blues90]

31. What's the point ? It's close to 46 years ago .

They still have not determined who did the shooting or why. We won't ever know what happened anymore thn we will on 9/11.

There are scores of books and movies out there. We still have no idea who was behind RFK's murder.

After all these years even tomarrow if all the truth came out what would change?

Whom ever was behind this have beem able to keep it a secret all these years.

It was a horrifying time to be sure.

All it now amounts to is so someone can write a book and draw attention.

[Postman]

34. Wrong.

There are still untold numbers of documents that are still classified regarding the JFK assassination.

I would venture to guess that you could draw a line connecting those responsible for JFK, Cuba, Nixon, Bush, US foreign policy complicit in supporting right-wing criminals, lawbreaking in the service of monopoly capitalism, war against the middle class and the right-wing corporate crooks.....

It is relevant to our time and should raise questions in your head as to why this stuff is still classified after all these years....

[blues90]

35. It remains classified because

If it were to get out we would find our entire government is one huge lie then the people would realize it's all an illusion and they can't have that.

[Postman]

36. Well thats a much different response than your "someone just wants to write a book" comment...

I would suspect that files are still classified because of what you said above. The corruption runs deep in regards to support of anti-democratic forces around the world and having those truths exposed is not something the power structure wants to be public because their MO has not changed.....

[blues90]

37. I sort of get the feeling that most of the classified papers

Have deliberate left out facts , who's going to lay out the entire truth and not lie about it in the first place.

Also I suspect most of these documents have long ago vanished which can very well be one reason they are not released . I suspect who was behind this felt that the official story would fly and this would long ago be dropped.

It's not like everyone involved walked behind closed doors and confessed their part in it and it was all written down and kept.

Many times I really have to wonder if most of what the term classified means is they do not exist. If there were any whistle blowers you can be certain they are dead. It may have involved 10 people to pull this off , maybe a few more.

[DU GrovelBot]

33. ## PLEASE DONATE TO DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND! ##

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[Sebastian Doyle]

38. Where was GrovelBot on 11/22/63?

There are rumors.......

[Louisiana1976]

49. The grassy knoll?

[deaniac21]

39. I think at the end of the show monkeys fly out of Hartmann's butt.

[avaistheone1]

42. Are you smoking something?

You really sound foolish.

[Alexander]

40. Here's a video of JFK's Secret Service being called off moments before he was killed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XY02Qkuc_f8

Maybe after watching this, some of the lone gunman people will learn to shut the hell up.

[Crabby Appleton]

41. That video was filmed at Love Field about 35 minutes

before the motorcade reached Dealey Plaza.

[1]

43. yeah, that is compelling. heh. except its not...

i've never seen pictures of kennedy riding in a convertable in a motorcade with ss dudes standing on the bumper.

and no one knows why the ss dude was shrugging ("three times. each shrug more dramatic than the last." who write this shit?)

if kennedy needed protection it would have come from a bullet-proof hardtop and not two dudes standing on the bumper (which they never did in a motorcade.)


it was oswald. in the book depository. with a mannlicher-carcano.

get over it...

[Alexander]

44. Believe in magic bullets all you want. Doesn't make them real.

I guess millions of adult Americans still need to believe in fantasies like magic bullets and God and things like that.

Doesn't mean I have to believe that bullshit.

[avaistheone1]

45. I had to blow your fantasy but the the House Select Committee on Assassinations

came to the conclusion that JFK's assassination was the result of a probable conspiracy not a magic bullet.

[1]

46. i'll reply to both of you here. you have no proof. kennedy is still dead. what is your point?

wonder and doubt all you will.

was it this? was it that! does it matter anymore? no...

it is what it is. it is done. 48+ years gone. kennedy is dead. it doesn't matter anymore. get a life.

get over it...

[jberryhill]

47. Why Was Ted Kennedy So Stupid?

So, was Ted Kennedy stupid, or a coward?

What is it with that family? None of them give a shit who killed JFK? Were they bought off? Are they being manipulated by fear? If that's the case, then none of them should be trusted.

How long are the Kennedys going to tacitly participate in the cover up?

[1]

48. these are all very good questions...

[DemBones DemBones]

54. One more time. . . if two of your brothers were murdered,

would you be most interested in finding out who did it or in protecting the rest of your family?

The Kennedy family not calling for further investigation does not prove they believe that Oswald acted alone.

We don't know what they believe, and if they're like most families, they don't agree in what they believe, anyway.

[TicketyBoo]

50. It is my understanding

that this subject matter is unacceptable here.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules_detailed.html

Posts about so-called "conspiracy theories" are not permitted on Democratic Underground, except in the September 11 forum.

[paparush]

51. 4 days prior, in Miami, the agents are on the rear bumper of the Presidential limo.

Look at the angle from Kennedy's head, neck, shoulders, and back and draw a line back through the SS agent standing on the rear wearing the dark glasses.

The presence of SS agents on the bumper would have made an Oswald shot very difficult.

[DemBones DemBones]

53. Two days prior, in Tampa, the agents were on the car.

Mr. Bones worked for a newspaper, was taking photos of JFK in Tampa, at Al Lopez Field. I'd scan one in for you but my scanner's not up.

It may even have been the very day before Dallas that JFK was in Tampa. I'll have to do a search. It creeped Mr. Bones out when he was killed so soon after he'd seen him.

Edit: It was November 18 that Kennedy was in Tampa. Mr. Bones always has had a bad memory for dates and this was before I knew him.

But if JFK was in Miami four days before Dallas, wouldn't that also have been Nov. 18? Maybe he was in Miami and Tampa the same day but he made two appearances in Tampa so that would have been pushing it.

[RagAss]

52. Blah Blah Blah...

You do realize that anyone with a rifle can kill.

[Kaleva]

56. It haunts a few of us.