The white religious right is too stupid to understand they're the ones being cursed in Psalm 109.

[intheflow]

Psalm 109 actually supports Obama. Really!

Don't believe me? Let's look at the psalm in its entirety, not just cherry pick a couple lines completely out of context like the teabaggers/freepers/Christian Taliban folks like to do.

I'm using the Contemporary English Translation of Psalm 109 for my illustration.

Psalm 109
(A psalm by David for the music leader.)

Ah ha! Did you catch that? This is a prayer-song written by King David for his music director, who was obviously a good person. The first few stanzas are about the music director's virtuous responses in the face of cruel persecution.

A Prayer for the LORD's Help

1 I praise you, God!
Don't keep silent.

2 Destructive and deceitful lies
are told about me,

3 and hateful things are said
for no reason.

4 I had pity and prayed for my enemies,
but their words to me
were harsh and cruel.

5 For being friendly and kind,
they paid me back
with meanness and hatred.

OK, who does that sound like? Obama is the face of world diplomacy today, he's the poster child of being "friendly and kind." Meanwhile "destructive and deceitful lies are told about" him, "hateful things said for no reason." Has the far right ever been friendly and kind? Have they ever had pity on their enemies (and victims)? Um, no. That is why this psalm is not about them. But it could be about Obama.

It goes on...

6 My enemies said,

This part is important!

What you are about to read is an excerpt from his enemies' talking points.

It reads like a Glenn Beck show transcript, complete with faux indignation and crying. This is where we get the infamous verse 109:8 that's in the news today.

"Find some worthless fools
to accuse him of a crime.

7 Try him and find him guilty!
Consider his prayers a lie.

8 Cut his life short
and let someone else
have his job.

9 Make orphans of his children
and a widow of his wife;

10 make his children beg for food
and live in the slums.

11 "Let the people he owes
take everything he owns.
Give it all to strangers.

12 Don't let anyone be kind to him
or have pity on the children
he leaves behind.

13 Bring an end to his family,
and from now on let him be
a forgotten man.

14 "Don't let the LORD forgive
the sins of his parents
and his ancestors.

15 Don't let the LORD forget
the sins of his family,
or let anyone remember
his family ever lived.

16 He was so cruel to the poor,
homeless, and discouraged
that they died young.

17 "He cursed others.
Now place a curse on him!
He never wished others well.
Wish only trouble for him!

18 He cursed others more often
than he dressed himself.
Let his curses strike him deep,
just as water and olive oil
soak through to our bones.

19 Let his curses surround him,
just like the clothes
he wears each day."

So the Christian right is very clearly identifying with the oppressors of King David's friend.

Hello!! Christian Taliban!! King David is Jesus' great-great-great-grandpappy! How do you think Jesus is going to feel when he checks his naughty/nice list on Judgement Day and sees you sided with the David's friend's tormenters? My guess would be judgement would not run in your favor, Freeper.

20 Those are the cruel things
my enemies wish for me.
Let it all happen to them!

21 Be true to your name, LORD God!
Show your great kindness
and rescue me.

Like Carly Simon's song "You're So Vain," these next stanzas are probably why the right thinks this song is about them.

22 I am poor and helpless,
and I have lost all hope.

23 I am fading away
like an evening shadow;
I am tossed aside
like a crawling insect.

24 I have gone without eating, until my knees are weak,
and my body is bony.

25 When my enemies see me,
they say cruel things
and shake their heads.

Many of the religious right are indeed poor and have lost all hope. Their whole (white) world view has come crashing to the ground with this past election, and they feel tossed aside like crawling insects. We certainly see them and shake our heads! Right down to the economic crisis causing so many people to go without food or shelter. Poor white conservatives are a dying breed and they know it.

What these rabid right-wing white Americans fail to grasp is that they are not the only poor people in the world. In fact, most poor people, most truly starving, helpless people throughout the world look more like Obama than like them. Thus again, these stanzas apply to Obama in that he is symbolic of decent, kind people the world over by virtue of his compassion and skin color.

I add these last stanzas to include the whole psalm, not just the parts that particularly support my thesis. They're not necessarily meant to invite discussion about if Obama prays or if he even believes in god (since this psalm was written for someone, the views expressed may not necessarily be his own:)). Most of the rest of this psalm is praise to the Lord (which, speaking from a historical Jewish perspective, was God, the only god, not the Trinity, and certainly not Jesus who hadn't even been born yet).

26 Please help me, LORD God!
Come and save me
because of your love.

27 Let others know that you alone
have saved me.

28 I don't care if they curse me,
as long as you bless me.
You will make my enemies fail
when they attack,
and you will make me glad
to be your servant.

29 You will cover them with shame,
just as their bodies
are covered with clothes.

30 I will sing your praises
and thank you, LORD,
when your people meet.

31 You help everyone in need,
and you defend them
when they are on trial.

So this psalm does indeed pray for Obama--it prays for heavenly intervention against the rabid and dangerous white religious right!

[Critters2]

1. I don't know what the hell you're talking about, but this is a classic

persecuted victim Psalm. There are several of these, as well as songs of suffering victims in other parts of the Hebrew scriptures. Girard argues that all religion is founded on sacrificed innocent victims, but that the Hebrew people struggled with the suffering of victims, but still engaged in sacrificial religion. But this Psalm is talking about a specific victim in a specific moment. Nothing to do with Obama, or the "white religious right".

[Sinti]

2. Did you see the Rachel clip today? n/t

[intheflow]

4. It has to do with them because they believe these texts are literal, meant for this moment in time.

Folks running around with "Pray for Obama Psalm 109:8" t-shirts and bumper stickers are missing the point of their own religious texts, even as they stretch to make them fit current events. I gave an alternative interpretation of this psalm through a contemporary lens.

You make the point yourself: many of these psalms are about, and side with, virtuous-but-suffering victims. From a scriptural point of view, the lesson to be learned from these texts is that you're supposed to side with the suffering victims, not the people causing the suffering. The conservatives pulling this quote out of context are missing the whole point of their own body of scriptures.

[Critters2]

25. Precisely. Thank you. nt

[Adsos Letter]

13. I think intheflow is describing the biblical illiteracy...

of way too many Christians, and use of scripture by demagogues who either misunderstand those scriptures themselves, or count on the well-attested habit of seeing what we want to/are willing to in scripture to twist it, in this case, for political ends. And I think she has done it by providing a case in point.

And, as I'm sure you are aware, proof-texting is also often taken out of its immediate context, or the broader context of the scriptures, to support doctinal arguments as well.

The only quibble I have with intheflow's essay is the limitation of "white" religious right...I'm inclined to think the misuse of scripture is an equal-opportunity employer.

[intheflow]

15. I agree misuse of scripture is an equal-opportunity employer.

But in this instance, it's being employed by white hate groups wrapping themselves in Christianity. :(

[Joe Chi Minh]

41. I've often made the same point to anti-Semitic Catholics (my faith),

including some religious of older generations - in whose regard it is even more literally applicable. Calling down curses on themselves, albeit in desperate ignorance.

But, it seems to me that, within the context of purblind, insensate right-wing, American politics*, Obama is a prime exemplar of the Suffering Servant. In David's day and earlier, the Hebrews were a predominantly pastoral people, not supremely worldly, as is the case, today. Although the Jews who constitute the true Israel, their Children of Light, manage to be devout followers of their faith at the same time. Not an easy feat.

* Concerning the attempted coup against Roosevelt by the likes of J P Morgan, DuPont, Clark, the Singer sewing-machine magnate and the like, below is the concluding paragraph of a letter by a Chris Marsh-Brown, in the Answers to Correspondents column of today's Daily Mail (UK), relating to the finding of the government McCormack-Dickstein Committee:

"Press coverage was dismissive - Time ran a story headlined Plot without Plotters and a New York Times editorial dismissed Butler's story as a 'gigantic hoax'. Depsite this, the Committee ruled that much of the story was true, but few paid much attention."

Seems the guiding ethic of the New York Times, the "United States' paper of record, hasn't changed a whoe lot, nor that of Time.

[Go2Peace]

18. Jesus was talking about hippocrits like fundamentalist Christians throughout the New Testament but

they just don't get it. But that is predictable.

[AlbertCat]

83. Jesus was talking about...

They haven't gotten to the New Testament yet. (Maybe Revelation) Hell, they haven't even gotten to the end of this psalm!

It all reminds me of Alex from "A Clockwork Orange" in prison reading the Bible and the prison Charlie thinks he's devout.

"I didn't like the last part of the book which was all preachy. I like the parts where they slay their enemies and getting on the bed with handmaidens...." (paraphrasing the film)

[SkyDaddy7]

49. Its Bronze Age BS!!!!!

I am so sick of religions! We do not need them! All they do is allow the nuts to have voice!

[Critters2]

51. Religions actually focus human violence, toward specific groups or people, traditionally.

Without them, many anthropologists argue, we would be caught up in "the violence of all against all". Some religions teach yet another alternative, namely non-violence. But all religions temper the violence that is inherent in human nature. That is why religion began.

[nadinbrzezinski]

3. This does not matter, really

the religious taliban is extremely selective on what they chose to use.

They mean exactly what Shaeffer told you.

I confronted one the other day, and plainly asked are you doing the shooting or hope somebody else does it?

He was shocked, that I got the dog whistle.

It is not what you think, but the clear dog whistle that they are sending to each other. Shaeffer is a gift as he translates them to you.

He knows what he speaks off. Hell I have been studying the American right on and off since at least 1994... and I have gotten pretty good at dog whistle detection... it is a skill we all need to develop, since they need to be confronted.

By the way... good job in looking at the whole thing. My favorite if you are into readying some beautiful poetry, is the Song of Songs.

[intheflow]

6. You and I have apparently led parallel studying lives since '94!

That's when I started in on my studies as well, which culminated in a Masters of Divinity (unused, ironically, because I don't like organized religion).

I didn't post this to refute Schaeffer. I absolutely agree these thugs know what they mean when they quote Psalm 109:8. I'm just saying they don't know what the psalm means.

[nadinbrzezinski]

12. Indeed we have then

and I am always amazed at just how clueless they are of the full texts on multiple levels... not just this one.

[intheflow]

66. It's ignorance, plain and simple. :(

They don't read the Bible for themselves. They listen to minsters/friends/Free Republic, eat the message and regurgitate it back out, only partially digested like all regurgitation. The sad thing is, most of these people actually can read for themselves. They just don't.

And as Twain reportedly said, the man who can read and doesn't is no different from a man who can't read at all.

[KakistocracyHater]

67. count me as a third one then

I've been watching the R.R. for as long as you, weird sad & depressing-it's the same with their sayings about the Tree of Liberty, that one(long befor Obama) needs their blood but the idiots unknowingly paint the target on themselves. Sadly I have many idiots in my family, they think I'm the idiot, but it would be a different strain of idiocy.

[napi21]

7. I believe Shaffer is right as well! Rachel's segment sent

chills up my spine and I'm still shuddering! I really don't understand how anyone can claim to be a good Christian and publically ask for our President to be murdered! I don't know of any religion that promotes that kind of thinking!

I disagree with Shaffer on only one thing. I don't think these people are comparable to the Taliban, I think they are extremely comparable with the American al Qaida!

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. Extremely right wing\ reactionary religion

and it does not matter if they pray on Thursday (mormons), Friday (Muslims), Saturday (Jews) or Sunday (Insert flavor of extreme right wing Christianity here, ranging for Catholics to Protestants to all in between)

And readying on what and how the Taliban function, they qualify. prayer circles and all that... but they also qualify as Al Qaida.

You asked...

:-)

[Hekate]

16. Right you are, Nadin: "They mean exactly what Shaeffer told you." nt

[bobbolink]

45. This is what I like about Thom Hartmann.... he has studied, and KNOWS the bible, and how to

refute the ignorance.

He also doesn't go around denigrating those who believe in the bible, but.... is so well-read that he can argue successfully with those who misuse it.

[Blue_In_AK]

5. K&R

Nice sermon, Rev. :hug:

[Adsos Letter]

8. I will most gladly K&R this excellent post!

The business of cherry-picking the scriptures is a well known tactic: and not just by the Religious Right, but by many who fall into the "proof-texting" form of argument.

One of the reasons so many execrable attitudes are held by too many Christians is EXACTLY what this post addresses; they look for a text, or group of texts, to support their preconceived notions rather than placing the text within the whole of its context, and within the even broader context of the entire scriptures. AND I SAY THIS AS A CHRISTIAN (not shouting, just want it understood that I have no axe to grind with real Christianity AND I give both time and money to groups that work very diligently to try to keep the wall of Church/State separation from crumbling; a losing battle these days, it seems).

Excellent post intheflow, and speaks directly to an enormous misuse of scripture, especially in a society designed to operate under secular civil law.

Much too often when dealing with ancient scriptures people see only what they are prepared to see, and only what they are WILLING to see. And too many "Christians" are woefully unfamiliar with the whole text, beyond those that their particular group emphasizes.

I would say that this is an excellent example of the Right Wing taking scriptures out of context in order to use them for political purposes.

CHURCH/STATE SEPARATION...if we finally surrender that we lose everything.

[intheflow]

65. Yeah, I figured this would be up your alley, Adsos!

:rofl:


:hi:

[Adsos Letter]

96. Not only up my alley...

but parked directly upon my doorstep. :D

:hi: :hug:

[tuvor]

9. k 'n' r.

[tomm2thumbs]

10. thanks for the context - sounds like they are attacking themselves alright

Beck should wear the shirt himself

[Adsos Letter]

14. Beck is too busy wearing his hair-shirt...

and his crown of thorns.

[CLANG]

87. Don't forget his shamwow bib that absorbs all those fake tears!

[intheflow]

100. .

:spray:

[ClayZ]

17. K and R

[Are_grits_groceries]

19. Like they are going to read that much.

In addition, they don't care. They would say that it's a correct reading.

This has gone on forever. Plus, they get their 'interpretations' filtered by strange-haired, Money grubbing grifters with an inerrant sense about how to make people believe what they want them to.

For people who believe in the literal, inerrant word of Gawd, the Bible is much easier to understand. No nuance or looking at who wrote what when and in which context.

My Mama tried to teach basic Sunday school lessons in her adult class. I remember she had 12 books about one gosepel alone in order to teach a couple of passages. She admitted that she was trying to find the correct meaning, but that that may be an impossible goal. At least she was trying.

[optimal-tomato]

20. This is why I can't stand religion.

You can use it to say anything, based on equally valid but contradictory interpretations. Worse, it gives people cover to say or imply something without having to justify their statements.

[Adsos Letter]

23. However, I think intheflow is pointing out that, in this case, the interpretations are invalid...

and directly contradictory to the context of the Psalm.

[patrice]

75. 1+++

[JeffR]

21. Nicely done! These people might do well to read Jeremiah 5:21

"Hear now this, O foolish people, and without understanding; which have eyes, and see not; which have ears, and hear not..."

K & R!

[Adsos Letter]

22. AMEN!

[JackInGreen]

24. Well ain't that

a lovely little chestnut to warm the heart and hurt the head.
They're quoting a verse, where the quote is from those who are the "enemies" said.
I wonder how many understand the position they put themselves in by buying into it...
HA!

[shadowknows69]

26. You rock. K+R

[flakey_foont]

27. this PSALM 109 thing is new to me

when and where did it start being associated with Obama? What's the story on this?

[Hekate]

36. It has to do with the theocracy movement, which intends to literally have "an army of Xian soldiers

... ready to rise up" when called. To this end their pet billionaire Scaife has has provided partial backing to fund home schooling textbooks to rewrite American history (we are an explicitly Christian nation founded on Godly principles, you know), get two universities going (Regents and I think Patrick Henry) that act as pipelines to congressional internships and later office, and a host of other projects. Their chief theologian, Rushdoony, is less well known to us than the ones who get on tv all the time, but what he promulgated is as serious as a heart attack. Oh, and those fundies that have taken over the Air Force Academy? No accident.

GW Bush was backed in part by these people, vetted in secret by them, believed to have been sent by God for them, and was an expert at giving them the "dog whistle" in speeches and imagery. Once I knew what to look and listen for it stood my hair on end. He wasn't just being pious with all that god-talk, he was talking to people who believe the End Times are here and that every instance of war and chaos is confirmation of it. They want an apocalyptic war in the Middle East in the worst possible way.

Their feelings about Obama go beyond party politics, beyond mere dislike of him as a person, beyond racism, and beyond the beyond. Listen to Schaeffer again, over in DU's video forum. They want a holy war as much as Al Qaida does. They want Obama dead, and they quote the Old Testament to justify their goal.

I started to learn about this at DU (I have been here since 2002) and followed up with my own research. I can't recapitulate it here, but an excellent and unbiased place to begin is at http://theocracywatch.org/ As a scholar myself, I really appreciate that they often link to primary sources, i.e. what the theocrats say about themselves. That's so you don't start thinking that you are just polishing up a tinfoil hat for yourself. As I said, they are as serious as a heart attack.

Good luck in your researches.

Hekate

[flakey_foont]

38. Thanks for the nice reply

I am pretty familiar with the Right wing Xtian point of view...anti-Obama, anti-Science, anti-just about everything\

I was referring mainly to the particular Psalm...I was just curious as to when that specific verse became an anti-Obama meme


do appreciate the response though, Hekate (Dark Moon Goddess?)

[Hekate]

44. ;-)

Dark Moon, Crossroads, Old One... ;-)

[Duval]

28. Not only recommended but thread sent

to "some" of my relatives living in the Charlotte, NC area. :thumbsup:

[hypocrisyandlies]

29. This palsm outlines exactly what is happening right now

"Destructive and deceitful lies
are told about me and hateful things are said
for no reason."

"For being friendly and kind,
they paid me back with meanness and hatred."

"Find some worthless fools (teabaggers, birthers, random terrified parents)
to accuse him of a crime."

[hypocrisyandlies]

34. Whoops...

meant Psalm. It helps to spell things right.

[GoCubsGo]

30. Cherry-picking is what wing nuts do

Nothing new here. I'm shocked. Just shocked.

Thank you for posting this. It's the "teabagger" thing all over again. They swallow stuff hook, line, and sinker, without ever bothering to figure out that they're really making asses of themselves.

[Bluenorthwest]

37. Cherry picking is what all religious people do

All day long we hear that the Bible is against gay people. Obama says he opposes our equal rights because of the Bible, as does Biden, Tim Kaine and other Democrats. None of them ever quote the verses that command slaves to obey their God given masters. Or that command women to be subservient and submissive and to avoid attention being draw to themselves with fine adornments. Each of the individual biblical authors who wrote against gay people wrote in favor of slavery. When anyone, anyone invokes the Bible against gay people, they are quoting a pro slavery author when they do so.

[jgraz]

31. Wait... you expect the American Taliban to actually *read* the Buy-Bull?

No one is more ignorant of their religion than Christianist Fundies.

[LibertyLover]

32. How right you are - and they are ignorant of their history too

I am currently reading A People's History of Christianity by Diane Butler Bass. It is an interesting read and Dr. Bass, a Ph.D in Church History from Duke, has a number of amusing anecdotes about teaching church history. One story in particular struck me as funny and sad at the same time. Early in her teaching career, Dr. Bass was at a Christian college teaching Church History 101. She writes about her class on the Crusades and the medieval Church. Most of the students were taking notes, but one girl was not and Dr. Bass could see that she was perplexed. Dr. Bass kept referring to the Christian forces or the Christian armies and the girl's discomfort grew and grew more apparent. Finally the girl raised her hand and asked what the Protestants (!)had to say about the war. Dr. Bass calmly explained that at that point in time, 1095, there were no Protestants. The student became more agitated and demanded to know where they were!

[intheflow]

55. Wow, what a sad story of Christian ignorance!

Reminds me of when I was taking a Christian ethics class. It was a Methodist seminary though there was a good mix of liberal Protestants, and me, the only agnostic in the class. The professor asked if God was good or bad and like rote little robots, my classmates all responded that "God is love."

"But what about the part in Genesis when God hardens Pharoah's heart against Moses time after time? That's not a god of love, that's God purposefully bringing sorrow to Moses, one of his chosen leaders. What about Job? What about God having Jesus be tortured on the cross?" My classmates all looked at the professor, hoping in vain that he would tell them some kind of magic happy words that would make their sudden doubt go away. The only thing he said was, "intheflow's right. True faith requires more than platitudes, and if you're going to be religious leaders, you're going to have to deeply wrestle this question."

I don't know what shocked them more: that they weren't given a pat answer to allay their doubt, or that the agnostic was right about God! :rofl:

[pundaint]

107. "You can't fix stupid" Brother Ron White

The only way to move them is with fear, but that is dangerous. What we need is an anti-christ they can believe in. Wait wait, it's coming through......S..........A.........R........A...

[DU GrovelBot]

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[Buzz Clik]

35. Nicely played! K&R

[Tuvok Obama]

39. WOW!!!

This needs to go viral. This is very serious and very literal proof that these types of fundie sheep are absolutely incapable of critical thinking, to the extreme that they can't even try to understand their own ideology.

[LynneSin]

40. These are right-wing nut jobs, they're pretty stupid about the rest of the bible too

And it's frightening.

[bobbolink]

42. They are called the "Cursing Psalms", and are very powerful.

A few years ago, I accidently ended up at a monastery, and they sing the psalms there 5 times a day. Some of them were very unfamiliar to me.... the "Cursing Psalms". I asked to speak with a priest there (it is a silent monastery, and they have to have permission to speak), and he told me all about the "Cursing Psalms", and that there are people who think some of them should be taken out of the bible! (Notably, the one about bashing a baby against the rocks.) He said, "The rabbis tell us that some people are so beat down that they can't even express their anger at God, so we express it for them." !!!!! THAT is sensitivity and JUSTICE.

These psalms are all about JUSTICE, and, basically, not taking crap and fighting back. Psalm 149 was the one that got to me the most.

Thank you for posting this, because you have hit on the REAL message.... the JUSTICE.

(As a matter of fact, Sojourners has a book called The Peace And Justice Bible, with those passages highlighted.)

[liberal_at_heart]

103. Isn't cursing people one of the things Christians criticize voodoo and witch craft for?

Are they practicing a Christian form of voodoo or witch craft?

[intheflow]

108. OTOH, you've never said a big FU to anyone?

Because that's cursing, too.

[bobbolink]

118. ME?????

Why I never....

:rofl:

[bobbolink]

117. Ohhh, geeez...... talk about a knee jerk response. Are you aware we are talking about the PSALMS???

:eyes:

[TrogL]

43. Authoritarians lack sufficient attention span to read an entire Psalm in one sitting

They can't think beyond three sentences, hence they have to cherrypick.

[kitkat65]

46. Thank you so much for this. Context is everything.

I was raised Methodist - now lasped - and am guilty of my own cherry picking of verses within the Bible (namely Matthew 7:20 "So then, you will know them by their fruits" regarding the Fundies worship of Bush).

I also have to admit I find the Bible hard to follow because our modern language is so different from how it was written. You almost have to do another translation on the spot, you know? I can see how it would be easy to lead people to believe what you want them to believe.

I would really like to know what the IQ and literary skills are of the people who follow this "Obama Prayer" kind of thinking. Perhaps reading comprehension simply isn't one of their strong points or they are being told by someone else what it means?

Very insightful post, intheflow. I really appreciate it.

[intheflow]

58. I often have to read a few translations before I can get a firm understanding

of any given Bible verse. Some words are archaic and there's no modern equivalent to translate it to, or, if translated from Latin or Greek, certain words convey certain gender characteristics that don't always translate into non-gendered English. If you want a good tool to compare texts, the Bible Gateway has 20 English translations, as well as multiple translations in all the European languages, many Asian languages, some Slovic languages, some languages I've never heard of. The search engine allows searches for specific texts by either name, chapter number, word, or phrase.

[FarLeftFist]

47. Verse 23 sounds like the republican party.

23- I am fading away
like an evening shadow;
I am tossed aside
like a crawling insect.


Religion is slavery.

[JonQ]

48. Why the "white" religious right?

This isn't a race thing.

[intheflow]

56. Oh, you're seeing hordes of black/brown/Asian people

showing up to townhall protests with firearms? You think the spike in threats against the president (up 400%!) is coming from people of color? This meme (Psalm 109:8) comes from white supremacist hate groups hiding behind Christianity.

[patrice]

79. I think those hate groups are there, maintaining a "non-violent" facade, sticking together, recruiti

ng, and biding their time as nice "fellowship" church groups until conditions offer an excuse to take things to the next level.

[thereismore]

50. Spot on! thanks. nt

[Politicub]

52. Now I have something to send back to my crazy fundy family when they send over "the verse"

Thank you for this post!!! It is brillant.

It's hard to argue with the whole psalm.

[Demeter]

53. Masterful Analysis!

I don't care if it's accurate or not. Your refutation ROCKS!

[Piewhacket]

54. Psalm 109:20

20 Those are the cruel things
my enemies wish for me.
Let it all happen to them!


(American King James Version
Let this be the reward of my adversaries from the LORD,
and of them that speak evil against my soul.)

[MadHound]

57. A couple of things,

First off, and most importantly, why are you characterizing this as some sort of "white" thing? Sorry, but rw crazy fundies come in all shades and races, and to single out white, imply that they are the only crazy religious types is, in itself, racist.

Second of all, reading a president, or anything else, into a sacred text is rather presumptuous and profane. Sorry, but nothing in here refers to Obama, much less "sound" like Obama.

You are overstepping bounds in many ways with this.

[intheflow]

64. Please see my posts #4 and #15 to answer your questions. n/t

[laughingliberal]

71. I remember the KKK and John Birchers using Christianity as their justification

of their hate and white supremacist ideology back in the 60's when the battle was just about as hot as it is now. This hatred is coming from groups which are mostly white, anti-minority. The post is about a bumper sticker being sold now encouraging people to pray for Obama to be killed. It is not the text that is in question here. It is the use of it by white, fundamentalist groups.

[Adsos Letter]

95. Spot on!

:thumbsup:

[jennied]

59. K&R

[jwirr]

60. Thank you. Very concise interpretation of a great Psalm. I think that

about says it all. Now for the churches to speak the truth or earn the guilt. Their choice.

[kristopher]

61. Thank you. Best DU post in ages. nt

[Krashkopf]

62. Sarah Palin is RIGHT "profile away" . . .

starting with the Christian Taliban.

The Secret Service should start a file on EVERYONE who buys any Psalm 109:8 merchandize.

I think these folks represent a clear and present danger to the President.

[Divine Discontent]

63. PRAISE JESUS! Someone who took time to read the psalm fully & proves it's what David was asking God

for help with, regarding the music director or himself, being attacked. Of course, the right wing nuts don't get that their the oppressors.

Thank you for your OP!

[anachro1]

68. Like everything else they do

They cherry pick the lines they like to promote their hysteria.
I am so saddened to see just how stupid and easily manipulated
America seems to have become.

They are projecting, as well.

[phasma ex machina]

69. OT my favorite Psalm 51:10-11

10. Create in me a clean heart, O G-d; and renew a right spirit within me.
11. Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

[bobbolink]

119. This cradle Lutheran sees those words, and the music of that part of the liturgy

come roaring back.

Great.

Now I have a liturgy earworm.

:hi:

[Plucketeer]

70. I'm NOT a religious sort WHATSOEVER!

Nonetheless, I extend a hearty thanks to you for bringing the truth of this Psalm to light. While I don't believe in some mythical GOD, I recognize that I live amongst those who do. I respect the bible as a sort of common sense guide as to how to conduct one's self and treat your fellow man.

[Bobbie Jo]

72. K&R

:kick:

[burning rain]

73. Actually, in the moral system of the Old Testament....

Obama--like anyone not an ultrapious Jewish fundamentalist--is beneath all consideration. Preaching kindness and compassion on the basis of the Old Testament is bizarre--it's more credible to cite it to urge folks to sack a nearby town and slaughter all the inhabitants, even the infants, for not being right with God. In fact, brutal fuckers who have no mercy for anyone outside their ethnic group--and are plenty nasty even to those within--are the "best" heirs of Moses and Joshua, while the idea of being nice to people outside your ethnic or religious group is alien to the Old Testament.

Maybe the nice liberal Christians determined to put a happy face on the Bible should reread it. Joshua and the Israelites didn't go to Jericho with casserole dishes in hand and say, "Yay! We're different--let's celebrate diversity together, with a potluck dinner!"

[patrice]

74. This is true, otherwise the Good News wouldn't be so good, New, different from what preceded it.

[intheflow]

76. Although Jesus was schooled from that earlier tradition.

His beliefs were shaped by the Hebrew texts. Church dogma says the Good News was that Jesus lived, period. But really the good news was what Jesus did: he reinterpreted the scriptures to be more compassionate and liberating.

[prestonPjr21]

80. Thats right!

If you do read the New Testament, Jesus was always hanging with the non-believer, not the ones who thought they were high and mighty, thinking they knew everything...

[patrice]

81. Thank you for a very pleasant and enlightening discussion.

:hi:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

84. The stereotype of the Old Testament is that it's all fire and brimstone

but that's just the earlier parts.

The later prophets place heavy emphasis on social and economic justice, reflecting the evolution of the Jewish ethical sense.

[burning rain]

90. I certainly don't deny that....

but the social and economic justice concerns of the later prophets are for Israelites, not others.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

109. Not really

There are passages about treating foreigners in the land well because the Jews were strangers in Egypt and exiles in Babylon.

[rockymountaindem]

91. That's totally untrue

I guess that stuff about leaving the corners of the fields for the poor, helping widows and orphans, not insulting the deaf or putting a stumbling block before the blind, jubilee years etc. all whooshed right by you.

[burning rain]

94. That's for Israelites.

Even the commandment "Thou shalt not kill" meant only that an Israelite shouldn't slay a fellow Israelite (well, those who didn't do something awful like "fornicate" or work on the Sabbath). Slaughtering Jebusites, Hivites, or who-have-you was fine and dandy. Getting closer to the present day, devoutness of Christian belief does not correlate with progressive attitudes toward race; in fact it's the opposite. The South, particularly the Deep South, are the most devout parts of the country, and those most resistant to racial progress--besides being the states most rife with poverty, violence, poor health, ill education, etc.

Liberal Christians are very nice but they're playing a losing hand. Whenever they try to come up with a theological rationale for, say, according equal rights to gays, all conservative Christians have to do is relate the story of Sodom, the strictures of Leviticus, and St. Paul's teachings, and condemn liberal Christians as wafflers who ignore the Bible. That is a huge problem with religion: it hands fundamentalists a basic advantage and puts nice liberal types in the position of appearing wishy-washy at best, and disloyal to the basic precepts at worst.

[phasma ex machina]

111. Evangelical Christian William Wilberforce's movement led to the Slavery Abolition Act in 1833. nt

[intheflow]

114. The fact that the texts were written exclusively for Israelites

does not negate the fact that they are being used/interpreted as pertaining to a much broader global Christian community. I don't think liberal Christianity is playing a losing hand. If you posit that, you're saying that Reverend Martin Luther King, Jr. was wishy-washy, that Jimmy Carter's Nobel Peace Prize is worthless, that Dorothy Day's work was a big fat waste of time. I refuse to concede all religious authority and power to the religious right!

[burning rain]

123. Liberal religion exists, but it's a minority preference.

Regular churchgoers are a strong GOP constituency, while Democrats clean up with those who don't care a fig about religion. I wouldn't get too sentimental about the church in the developing world either--it's even more unenlightened with regard to, say, women's and gay rights than it is in the US.

[garthranzz]

112. THIS IS ONE OF THE WORST MISREADINGS OF THE "OLD TESTAMENT'

I have ever seen. Way to read out of context. You sure you haven't been infected with rightwingnuttery?

[burning rain]

122. Nice use of the silly "if I don't like it, it's out of context" line.

Stick to your nice imaginary happytime Bible that's full of pro-gay and pro-choice verses, and comes with Leviticus and all the other nasty stuff cut out so as not to upset you.

[BrklynLiberal]

77. "The white religious right is too stupid to understand" Enough said.

[prestonPjr21]

78. That is 100% accurate...

This prayer is condeming them back... The Psalm actually sounds like it is talking about christian/republicans... Ah man, they are toast!

[garthranzz]

82. AN IMPORTANT CORRECTION

You wrote:

Psalm 109
(A psalm by David for the music leader.)

Ah ha! Did you catch that? This is a prayer-song written by King David for his music director, who was obviously a good person. The first few stanzas are about the music director's virtuous responses in the face of cruel persecution.

--

The psalm is not about the music director. The Hebrew translated as "for the music leader" refers to the TYPE of psalm. It's more like "composer's note to the music director, when performing this psalm by David". The psalm itself is about David. He composed it while fleeing from Saul. He had many enemies at that time, who spoke only evil about him, but pretended to befriend him. So in bitterness he cursed them. Vs. 22 on refer to David.

And, despite the fundamentalists' delusions, this psalm has absolutely nothing to do with their religion.

[CLANG]

88. That was my understanding too.

But whether about David or his "musical director", the OP is still right on about his points. And I realize that's what you were saying too, but I'm just backing you up!

Religion is the DEBUL!! (apologies to the waterboys ma-ma-ma-mama)

[garthranzz]

113. Actually, I'm very religious - an Orthodox Jew, in fact

[Mosby]

116. Psalm 109 in hebrew

just says "for the leader, a psalm of David"

לַמְנַצֵּחַ, לְדָוִד מִזְמוֹר

[garthranzz]

120. Thee word means "choirmaster" not leader, in this context

King David either wrote or arranged the book of Psalms. (For instance, Psalm 90 was written by Moses; King David included it and decided where it would go.)

These psalms were sung by the Levites, either during the Temple service or perhaps at other times. But once composed, they were performed. Since the psalms were written before musical notation, words like לַמְנַצֵּחַ (for the choirmaster) and Mizmor indicate who should sing them, or how they should be sung. Think of prayers being sung or song/poems performed before royalty.

[intheflow]

89. So in my interpretation, the RW is directly threatening the King David figure?

:rofl: This gets better and better! Thank you for the correction. :hi:

(Now that you mention it, I do seem to remember something about that from my Hebrew Bible class... a few years back...:blush:)

[garthranzz]

115. Yeah, they're threatening the King David figure and in fact cursing themselves

Because it's a "bless those who bless you, curse those who curse you" thing - they're aligning themselves with the wrong side - as usual.

(On a lighter note - remember how Lennon said "I am the Walrus" was based on Lewis Carroll's poem "The Walrus and the Carpenter," and when he re-read he realized the Walrus was the "bad guy"? Now there it's a good thing. "I am the Carpenter" would just recall some really shmaltzy music (Karen and her brother).

[SusanaMontana41]

85. @intheflow

This post is one of the many reasons why I love DU! The breadth of knowledge that DUers possess is amazing. I appreciate the education!

[gtar100]

86. :) K&R

I'm glad you can explain it so well. I think I would just get mad. I have no hope in people who call themselves Christian with the same mouth they use to curse the creation.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

92. Why bring race in to it?

[intheflow]

97. Because I never see people of color protesting showing up to Obama events with guns.

African Americans, Chicanos, and Asian Americans are not crashing the servers in the rush to join up with the newest neo-nazi/KKK/white supremacist web sites. The people marketing this Psalm 109:8 merchandise are racists cloaking themselves in religion.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

98. You mean like the black protestor in Arizona with the assault rifle.

[intheflow]

99. I'm not saying there aren't exceptions to every rule.

Stockholm Syndrome is real, for instance. But I have never personally seen this person you speak of, and only once seen a person of color among video of teabaggers and evangelicals calling for Obama's impeachment. If you can show me proof that proportionate numbers of black Americans are storming the streets and airwaves protesting "Obamacare" and shouting "Socialist!' and increasing threats against the president by 400%, I'll be happy to concede your point.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

101. Interesting.

Of course if I wrote that black people are convicted of committing a disproportionate amount of crime, I would be widely criticized here and called a racist, teabagger. Funny how the only people it is okay to stereotype anymore are white christians. Gotta love the bigotry and the hypocrisy.

[intheflow]

102. Racism and prejudice are two different things.

Racism is institutionalized to favor white people. I don't think many here on DU would dispute that black people ARE convicted of committing a disproportionate amount of crime, because criminal statistics back that up; African American men are tried and convicted of more crime in the American legal system.

However, if you said black people commit a disproportionate amount of crime, most of us would call bullshit and you a racist because that's not true at all. White people commit at least as much crime, they just don't get charged and convicted at the same rate as people of color. Why? Because if looks like a duck... If the only difference in the crime stats is skin tone, it's not an anomaly.

So there is no hypocrisy going on except in your confused mind. Do you think we are living in a post-racial America just because a black man was elected president?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

104. Let me guess black people can't be racist?

[intheflow]

105. What part of "I'm not saying there aren't exceptions to every rule" don't you understand? n/t

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

106. Good for you. At least you are consistent.

[NYC_SKP]

93. Context really IS everything, as usual the Freepers just don't get it. K, R, n/t

[olegramps]

110. When I heard about this I did read the Psalm.

Although I am an agnostic, I have a copy of the Bible on my desk for reference. Thanks for your commentary on the Psalm 109. I really don't know how you combat the extreme dominionists theology that has seized control of the Republican Party. Sara Palin, like millions of fundamentalist and evangelical extremists, is convinced that God is on her side and that she along with her fellow true Christians are waging a justified war against evil liberals who are corrupting the nation's morals. They a zealots and will not be deterred. As Moyers cautioned they are determined to succeed and to stand idly by and not forcefully confront them will mean the death of democracy.

[moonbatmax]

121. CRUD!! Why didn't I rec this last night?

Oh, well, here's another kick, at least.

This one REALLY needs to stay visible
as long as they keep pushing that one verse.

[UTUSN]

124. Kicking back up for, BRILLIANT EXEGESIS!1 n/t

[theophilus]

125. David was referring to himself in this psalm. He does that alot. He

had a rough time as king. He had many enemies and even his own family was against him. David had himself to blame for many of his troubles but he seemed to regret his stupidity. This is a great post,imo.