Contraception is a "suddenly loaded political issue, a toxic sister to abortion"

[madfloridian]

Those are the words of Sharon Lerner in a very interesting article about why there is no requirement in the health care reform to have birth control paid for, to have pelvic exams paid for, to have STDs covered by insurance.

Lerner is the author of “The War on Moms: On Life in a Family-Unfriendly Nation,” due out in this spring. She is a journalist who has covered women's issues and health for years. Her written work has appeared in The Village Voice, where she was a columnist, as well as The New York Times, The New York Times Magazine, The American Prospect, The Nation, and Ms. among other publications.

Why Doesn't Health Care Cover Birth Control?

She says it is not covered because politicians are fearful of addressing it in this climate where we are so accepting of the religious views of women's right. She expresses that view well.

In truth, a broader sentiment seems to be fueling the discomfort with contraception. Perhaps the American Life League gets to the heart of it best, noting on its website that birth control leads to “a state of mind that treats sexual activity as if it has nothing to do with babies”—i.e., to put it in plain terms, promiscuity. Birth control somehow shades into abortion, and together both lead women down the path to immorality.

Some feel women are supposed to sit back and let this happen without making too big a fuss....because after all we are all Democrats, and our party is in power. The very reason we should NOT accept it.

More from Lerner's perceptive article:

Why Doesn't Health Care Cover Birth Control? Politicians won’t address the subject.


She points out that abortion was lost to horse trading, and it seems like other rights in women's care will suffer the same fate.

Abortion, it seems, was lost to political horse-trading. But there are also deeper forces at work that will continue to affect the 10 million women who are expected to participate in a health care exchange—an infuriating irrationality that taints not just abortion, but many other health issues that are perceived to be connected to women’s sexuality.

The best example is birth control, which was also recently thrown under the health-reform train. So far, none of the three reform bills has required insurers to cover contraception, although it is almost universally used by heterosexually active women. Other preventive services, such as some counseling about sexually transmitted diseases and pelvic exams, didn’t make the cut, either. Nor have the bills protected these services from “cost sharing,” which means that women may well end up paying for much of their birth control out of their own pockets.

She points out that even those who are for women's rights to good health care are facing attacks from the religious right extremists.

Few in Washington or elsewhere would cop to such plainly sexist views. Once it’s actually put into words, the blanket condemnation of all sex without the intention of making babies is obviously out of step with the way most people think and live. It’s arguably even more retrograde than the idea that certain methods of birth control are equivalent to abortion. Yet in July, when senators debated an amendment put forward by Barbara Mikulski proposing full coverage of birth control and other preventive women’s health services, the conversation focused on Planned Parenthood and abortion, despite the fact that neither was mentioned in the amendment.

It’s the rare—and almost always female—politician who’s willing to brave these irrational currents to fight for birth control. Mikulski’s amendment is now the only remaining hope of getting birth control completely covered and paid for in the final health-reform bill. The majority of politicians seem intent on steering clear of the whole tawdry mess. Yet it’s worth remarking that even as they give off an air of quiet disapproval, most of these lawmakers somehow do not have huge broods of children themselves. If the subject of birth control comes up, they often respond—or, rather, don’t—with the kind of wide-eyed panic you might expect from someone accused of playing footsy with another man in an airport bathroom. When George W. Bush was asked whether he supported the use of contraception, for instance, the usually garrulous father of two stayed mum.

Women are now falling into the silence left by these hypocritical and terrified politicians. Though lawmakers have treated birth control and abortion as abstract matters of values, the consequences of their heady decisions for women will be quite real. The consequences will be harshest for the middle- and low-income women most likely to participate in a health exchange. If they have to pay for part or all of the cost of birth control themselves, women will be less likely to get it. Some will get pregnant. And virtually all of the women who want abortions will be unable to get them covered through our new national health plan.

Our party has often adopted the rhetoric of the religious right, making it sound like the only good American is a Christian American. It angers me, though I was raised Southern Baptist. Hubby and I are proud recovering Southern Baptists....we learned the hard way that these groups will impose every belief of theirs on our nation. And when we cave, they go the next step.

We took every trace of abortion out of health care reform...now they are going after birth control.

In just five short years, the primary movers and shakers in the absolutist anti-abortion/anti-choice movement seeking to promote the “personhood” of zygotes (the single cell that forms after a sperm fertilizes an egg) have amassed nearly $58 million in tax-deductible contributions for their cause.

Even the lead up to one of the worst economic periods in U.S. history has barely registered a blip in the group's collective money-drawing power according to an examination of IRS and state campaign finance records conducted for RH Reality Check. Four out of the five groups are raising more cash than ever with sophisticated fundraising operations, flush investment portfolios, and robust revenue-generating activities. This isn't your grandma’s church bake sale by any stretch of the imagination.

..."The "Personhood Amendment" that conservative activists are filing today in Tallahassee would add language to the state constitution that defines someone as a "person," regardless of age or health status, "from the beginning of the biological development of that human being."

Pat McEwen of Palm Bay is one of two leaders of the loose collection of activists, collectively known as Personhood Florida.

If they succeed with this egg as a person movement, there would be no need for birth control anyway.

How did we get to the point where Democratic politicians are afraid to even stand up for birth control being paid for by insurance.

[tazkcmo]

1. Keep the government out of my condom! n/t

[Odin2005]

2. "A Handmaiden's Tale" here we come.

:puke:

[Nikki Stone1]

6. Oh, God, I remember reading that

I never thought we'd actually come this close.

[Tansy_Gold]

8. Correct title: "The Handmaid's Tale" by Margaret Atwood

For those who might go looking for it, it helps to have the correc title.



TG, who has enormous respect for authors and their works

[Quantess]

11. I still haven't read that.

I guess I should get around to it.

[Tesha]

44. There is still an excellent chance that "The Handmaid's Tale" will still come to pass.

America is still moving very rapidly towards religious extremism,
although the jury's still out on New England...

Tesha

[RaleighNCDUer]

47. You will remember, in The Handmaid's Tale the entire country had NOT

gone to theocracy - there were segments of the country that were at war with the Republic of Gilead.

We don't need to wait to see the whole country fall under their sway before it can become reality.

[Tesha]

104. I remember that very well, living as I do near Atwood's hypothetical capital...

...of her Republic of Gilead! I just hope she located
it in the wrong part of the country, but as I say, the
jury's still out. I would have been more optimistic but
the passage of Question 1 in Maine and the recent
foolishness in Rhode Island says that even here in
progressive New England, we dare not take anything
for granted.

And nationally, the country is still headed for theocratic
Hell in a handbasket as the religious Reich gains more
and more political power and Democrats become ever-
more cowardly towards them.

Tesha

[PSzymeczek]

206. I always thought it was significant

that the capital of Gilead was Boston.

[defendandprotect]

54. There was a movie made of it -- used to appear on TV quite a bit ...

[Quantess]

134. I vaguely remember that there was a movie made by that name.

But I haven't seen that, either. Thanks for the idea.

[lark]

184. Saw it, but the book is scarier

[defendandprotect]

187. Can you fill us in on the differences between the movie and book?

I remember my library got "Peyton Place" a few years ago for anniversary of

Grace Metalious -- and they got an ABRIDGED COPY!!!

Of course, the copy they had didn't say it was abridged . . . I had to point that

out to them! I was reading it and all the good parts were gone!

Amazing what's going on !!

[Odin2005]

16. Doh, my bad!

[Shallah Kali]

22. no, Ceausescu's Romania-'The law only forbade abortion.It did nothing to promote life'

http://www.ceausescu.org/ceausescu_texts/overplanned_parenthood.htm

Nicolae Ceausescu loved nothing better than a monument to himself. But his ministerial palaces and avenues paled next to another of his schemes for building socialism: a plan to increase Romania's population from 23 million to 30 million by the year 2000. He began his campaign in 1966 with a decree that virtually made pregnancy a state policy. "The fetus is the property of the entire society," Ceausescu proclaimed. "Anyone who avoids having children is a deserter who abandons the laws of national continuity."

It was one of the late dictator's cruelest commands. At first Romania's birthrate nearly doubled. But poor nutrition and inadequate prenatal care endangered many pregnant women. The country's infant-mortality rate soard to 83 deaths in every 1,000 births (against a Western European average of less than 10 per thousand). About one in 10 babies was born underweight; newborns weighing 1,500 grams (3 pounds, 5 ounces) were classified as miscarriages and denied treatment. Unwanted survivors often ended up in orphanages. "The law only forbade abortion," says Dr. Alexander Floran Anca of Bucharest. "It did nothing to promote life."

Ceausescu made mockery of family planning. He forbade sex education. Books on human sexuality and reproduction were classified as "state secrets," to be used only as medical textbooks. With contraception banned, Romanians had to smuggle in condoms and birth-control pills. Though strictly illegal, abortions remained a widespread birth-control measure of last resort. Nationwide, Western sources estimate, 60 percent of all pregnancies ended in abortion or miscarriage.

The government's enforcement techniques were as bad as the law. Women under the age of 45 were rounded up at their workplaces every one to three months and taken to clinics, where they were examined for signs of pregnancy, often in the presence of government agents - dubbed the "menstrual police" by some Romanians. A pregnant woman who failed to "produce" a baby at the proper time could expect to be summoned for questioning. Women who miscarried were suspected of arranging an abortion. Some doctors resorted for forging statistics. "If a child died in our district, we lost 10 to 25 percent of our salary," says Dr. Geta Stanescu of Bucharest. "But it wasn't our fault: we had no medicine or milk, and the families were poor."

More: http://www.ceausescu.org/ceausescu_texts/overplanned_parenthood.htm

[BlancheSplanchnik]

31. you should post this as a separate thread.

It's important, and should be seen.



:cry:

[olegramps]

37. His policy exactly mirrors the doctrine of the Catholic Church.

The anti-contraceptive doctrine of the Catholic Church shares responsibility for the population explosion that is resulting in massive starvation and malnourishment. Malnourishment of children results in a host of physical problems that has crippled millions both mentally and physically. It can only be regarded by thinking people to be an evil organization that is in reality to be the enemy of mankind.

[defendandprotect]

56. Patriarchal insanity is still with us . . . destructive as ever ---

You should repost this sometime as a separate thread --

PLUS the reality that so many unwanted and unloved children became emotionally

unresponsive and didn't thrive at all.

Nature favors women -- all life is based on the female model --

Nature also provided many means via plants to control fertility, interrupt

conception and to bring about miscarriage - abortion.

Most of this information and the plants -- our drugs -- were destroyed by

patriarchy.

Women contribute 57% gentically to the birth of a child -- the male 43% --

Women are the majority of every propulation -- despite how many millions have

been killed.

Obviously, this patriarchal war on women and nature relates to all of this.

[Enthusiast]

64. Thank you, Shallah Kali.

I had no idea.

[madfloridian]

65. "women under age of 45 were rounded up" and examined for signs of pregnancy.

"Women under the age of 45 were rounded up at their workplaces every one to three months and taken to clinics, where they were examined for signs of pregnancy, often in the presence of government agents - dubbed the "menstrual police" by some Romanians. A pregnant woman who failed to "produce" a baby at the proper time could expect to be summoned for questioning. Women who miscarried were suspected of arranging an abortion. Some doctors resorted for forging statistics. "If a child died in our district, we lost 10 to 25 percent of our salary," says Dr. Geta Stanescu of Bucharest. "But it wasn't our fault: we had no medicine or milk, and the families were poor."

I remember reading about that, and the babies left in orphanages. They were often deprived of human love and contact which led to their emotional underdevelopment.

Thanks for the post.

[Captain Hilts]

75. Random gynocological inspections and everything. nt

[TheMightyFavog]

127. And we all know what happened to Ceausescu...

The firing squad didn't even wait for them to tie up and blindfold him and his wife.

[Shallah Kali]

202. BBC: Half-naked children leapt from every direction, clawing at my clothes...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4630855.stm


Last Updated: Tuesday, 12 July 2005, 08:27 GMT 09:27 UK


Life in Ceausescu's institutions
By Kate McGeown
BBC News

It is now more than 15 years since the world found out about the thousands of children locked away in Romania's state institutions. In the second of a series on these children, former volunteer Kate McGeown looks at the dreadful conditions they faced.


Kate McGeown at the institution in Siret in 1996
Kate McGeown worked as a volunteer at an institution in Siret

In pictures: Siret institution

When I first walked into the large grey building at the heart of the Romanian town of Siret, my immediate instinct was to walk straight back out again.

Half-naked children leapt from every direction, clawing at my clothes, and there was an overpowering smell of urine and sweat that made me want to retch.

I first visited Siret's Spitalul de Copii Neuropsihici (children's psychiatric hospital) in 1996, to work as a volunteer.

But the situation was much worse when British schoolteacher Monica McDaid saw it for the first time in 1990 - just a few months after Ceausescu's downfall.

"What I saw was beyond belief," she said. "It was horrendous."

More: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4630855.stm

-----------------
Children of the Decree
Dax Experiment 770: Gebahren Auf Gefehl (Documentary -- Germany - Romania)
http://www.variety.com/review/VE1117929013.html?categoryid=31&cs=1

Present-day interviews with a TV personality and a fashion model, accompanied by kinescopes from their glitzy heydays, reveal the pain and paranoia they experienced because of their back-alley abortions, a practice which claimed tens of thousands of lives. The irony, never lost on filmmaker Iepan, is that during this period Romania was celebrated as the most liberal of the Warsaw Pact nations, hailed by the U.N. as a model of population growth and considered by the West as a friendly, potential break-away ally.

Only women over 40 and those who already spawned four offspring (and, unofficially, Gypsies, whose propagation was actively discouraged) were exempt from having children. In the years following the decree's passage in 1966, the birth rate doubled. Although a huge propaganda machine touted the beauty of motherhood, existing cultural biases encouraged men to disavow all post-coital responsibility, leaving the women to "take care of it" as best they could.

In the '80s, as the worsening economy made feeding extra mouths impossible, the undeclared war between women and the state escalated. Women suspected of interrupting their pregnancies were tortured or left untreated until they revealed who helped them. All gynecological procedures were spied on by prosecutors and by the militia, and girls in factories were frequently subject to spot exams. A wealth of black-and-white footage eloquently testifies to the relentless surveillance.

snip

In speeches, poems and musical extravaganzas featuring hundreds of twirling umbrellas, beaming, fresh-faced young pioneers declared their love for Ceaucescu. Hidden in the country, however, were special orphanages for the less-than-perfect, where disabled youths died of cold and starvation or were eaten by rats. Iepan shows excerpts of the horrific footage taken by a German film crew that first exposed the infamy.

[lark]

183. OMG - I read that horror tale when it first was printed

I remember telling my husband that this was the direction that the far right wanted us to go. Sometimes I hate being right, and this one tops the list.


:puke: :puke:

[EndersDame]

3. This is a Slippery Slope Y'all

First abortion won't be covered . Then Birth Control. Then what? Diseases only immoral people get like gonorrhea or HIV

[Nikki Stone1]

4. We. Told. You......

Oh, fuck it. No one listens.

[JoeyT]

26. Looks like the "But we can change it later!" crowd were correct.

They were just wrong about what it was going to be changed to.

[Blue State Blues]

32. +1

Ding, ding, ding! We have a winnah!

[Ignis]

93. Ouch, that's gotta sting.

:thumbsup:

[bullwinkle428]

86. Palin will fix this once she's in office...

:hide:

[Nikki Stone1]

199. Slap!

:spank:

[Greyhound]

192. Ditto. n/t

[villager]

5. But but but... it's change! Change, I tell ya!

n/t

[Missy Vixen]

60. And hope! Don't forget hope! n/t

[StarfarerBill]

7. Jeebus H. Effing Cyst...

Now we're going to have give protection to BC pill and condom factories as well as women's clinics? What's next, all women's health programs?

Isn't there a still-radioactive island somewhere in the South Pacific we can ship these cretins to?

:mad:

[OHdem10]

9. And these same politicians waxe heatedly about the Taliban and their

Commissions on Virtue and Vice. The Behavior Police.

[StarfarerBill]

10. Never underestimate the power of hypocrisy.

[eShirl]

18. they're actualy jealous of them

[noiretextatique]

165. and these same politicians are caught with their pants down

"it's a personal family matter" per diaper-boy vitter :puke:

[Warpy]

12. That's what the patriarchs have always been after

because they cherish the ability to ruin a woman's life at any time.

Please don't underestimate these men and the stupid women who are falling for their shit.

They are our deadly enemies, always have been, and always will be.

[madfloridian]

21. Yes

I agree. Power over women is very important in many religious circles.

[BuelahWitch]

13. My insurances haven't covered birth control since the early-mid '80s

Never had a problem with pelvic exams, but after '84 or so I always had to pay for pills. I'm not saying it's right, just that it's not new.
I wonder if there was a male birth control pill if they'd cover it?

[madfloridian]

17. Mine did cover it while I needed it..

now I don't. :-)

[joeglow3]

34. Most will cover it if it is for a medical need.

However, "I want to have sex, but not get pregnant" is not a medical decision. It is a personal choice (which I agree completely with) that should not be covered by medical insurance.

[madfloridian]

51. You amaze me how you say the same thing over and over and over....

all that personal choice stuff..."it's a personal choice and should not be covered by medical insurance."

Totally amazing.

[joeglow3]

61. It amazes me how some people are incapable of separating their views

Just because I support birth control does not mean it automatically should be covered in 100% of scenarios in the health care bill.

Explain to me how my wife using the birth control pill (in the past) and an IUD now is NOT her choice (given that she is perfectly fine without either). She has no medical need for it and we use them solely as family planning tools. It has NOTHING to do with health.

[Lars39]

72. Never seen a woman worn out from having child after child or

miscarriage after miscarriage have you?

?

[madfloridian]

73. Unbelievable.

.

[Cerridwen]

81. Oooooo, a two-fer.

You're Being Overemotional

After all, proper "intellectual" discussions always involve detachment and rationality. What is "rationality"? It’s a way of approaching emotional matters devoid of sentiment, particularly prized by Privileged People® as it enables a continuing inequity of power that favours them: after all, if they aren’t emotionally attached to the topic by way of Lived Experience©, it is easier for them to be "rational".

AND

Well I Know Another Person {wife} From Your Group Who Disagrees!

This one is fantastic to bring out if you feel at all backed into a corner. If, for example, the Marginalised Person™ is making sense and you’re beginning to get the unpleasant feeling that you were wrong about something, just whip up your friend - your black friend, or your trans friend, your friend with a mental illness, or your friend who is a sex worker, {or your wife} and vehemently express how they completely and stridently support your opinions on these issues.

[Scout]

97. +1000 n/t

[Cerridwen]

106. Thank you. n/t

[Ignis]

99. Ooh, I hadn't seen that website. Nice find!

:hi:

[Cerridwen]

108. Thanks.

I'm getting tired of the same crap from the "usual suspects (tm)".

:hi:

[joeglow3]

102. See post #106 nt.

[uppityperson]

138. "106 Thank you. n/t" Oh. Kay.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=7037329&mesg_id=7040701

[madfloridian]

111. lol "If You Won't Educate Me How Can I Learn"

Great site.

[Cerridwen]

115. Thanks.

It's both funny and infuriating. :D :banghead:

DU was getting to me so I spent a few days hanging at feminist sites. The difference was astounding. It was also amazingly refreshing. I'm tired of the same ol' crap coming up around the same ol' issues. I've decided I'm just going to post their strategies back at 'em when they do this. Next, I think I'll bring out some of the bingo cards (there's also a part 2 and a whole slew of other arguing-from-privilege bingo cards as well). That'll be fun. :evilgrin:

[dana_b]

179. I like them!

and off of of that one card, I know I've heard at least half of those lines - probably more.

[Cerridwen]

189. Picture threads full of

B-9

O-67

Bingo!!!

:rofl:

[Starry Messenger]

125. LOVE that link.

I wish it could be stickied at the top of every forum.

[Cerridwen]

162. No kidding.

I picture many heads exploding; including mine on occasion. :D

[uppityperson]

135. Excellent! Thank you for that website. Need to bookmark.

[Cerridwen]

160. I recently had to re-bookmark to get it in my main folder instead of

buried in sub-folders.

I'm bringing out the bingo cards next. :evilgrin:

[fascisthunter]

215. the first explains an attitude I have become well aware of

I work with someone like this. Real fucking know-it-all judgemental snob. A shame... but it makes her feel more superrior to others, and like most crutches, she'll probably be doomed to the same crutch for the rest of her life.

[TwilightGardener]

116. For what it's worth, I see family planning--abortion, contraceptives, vasectomies,

tubal ligation, etc.--as quality of life issues, not as strictly medical issues, unless there's a medical reason for them. This does not devalue these things, just puts it outside the realm of what I would define as medicine (restoring health, function, and comfort, treating and preventing disease and injury). That said, I would hope contraceptives and sterilizations and abortion services can and will be covered by private insurance plans, and that the public option at least encourages participating insurance co's to cover such things. Insurance companies and the government should have a big interest in keeping unwanted pregnancies, abortions, births--and therefore costs--down.

[Hestia]

163. It just amazes me how viagra and other penile meds are covered, but if a woman doesn't

want to get pregnant by the penile erection drug, so bad, so sad for her? That is a medical decision, not getting pregnant. I take it you are a man, right? Only a man would say that the decision to not get pregnant shouldn't be covered, but a sister wouldn't put another sister through a form of slavery like that. If BC is not covered, and she has an unwanted baby, it is slavery for the rest of her life.

[fascisthunter]

171. I agree...

[dana_b]

182. well put

I feel like we've reverted back to another time when women were expected to shut up, look pretty and tend to the men (slavery).

thank God some people here are still progressive enough to understand this.

[noiretextatique]

166. the "medical need" is not to have a child

your wife is a much better person than i am :puke:

[noiretextatique]

167. the "medical need" is not to have a child

your wife is a much better person than i am :puke:

[Arugula Latte]

175. What about boner pills?

Getting it up has nothing to do with health, yet insurance pays for remedying limp dicks.

Birth control, on the other hand, prevents a major medical condition -- pregnancy.

[tblue37]

118. Especially when most insurance policies do cover Viaga. nt

[Lars39]

55. And once again a neanderthal totally overlooks the fact that a woman's

brain is part of her body.

[joeglow3]

59. What????

If there is a medical reason to use the pill, I agree it should be covered 100% (thus, addressing chemical issues (inlcuding those of the brain) it may mitigate).

[Lars39]

70. The "medical reason", you fucking tool, is that women don't want to be pregnant

and care for children most of their lives.

[clspector]

170. Lars...

I think I love you!

>>The "medical reason", you fucking tool, is that women don't want to be pregnant and care for children most of their lives.<<

[Cerridwen]

78. See post #78. n/t

[joeglow3]

103. See post #106 nt.

[Cerridwen]

77. "You're Interrogating [looking at this] From The Wrong Perspective"

You're Interrogating {looking at this} From The Wrong Perspective

This is a very special tactic but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be freely or liberally used. If anything, it means you should use it as often and as widely as you can.

You see, in this one you get to insult their intelligence and perceptiveness but in a very subtle and underhanded way! This one is very useful in discussions about literature and other media or academia.
The gist of it is this: there's nothing offensive in there, you just don't get it (because you are too stupid)!

[joeglow3]

101. You are refusing to address simple questions

Let me pose it this way, hoping you can actually address the issue at hand:


Assume hypothetical woman A uses birth control. We know 41% of women use this, so there are millions you can choose from:

http://news.healingwell.com/index.php?p=news1&id=618431

Now, lets assume this same hypothetical woman A has no medical need to use birth control other than a desire to avoid getting pregnant (I could not find a stat., but it is safe to assume there are more than 1 or 2 who fit this criteria. Anyway, the percent does not matter, as I agree that it should be covered for medical necessity).

Thus, why should this hypothetical woman get the pills provided for?

Next, applying the logic that it should be provided is for future health as it is not healthy and in her best interest to get pregnant, should we provide for the following items:

1. All vitamins. The benefits have been well documents.
2. Organic only foods. We know that these are MUCH better than other foods, but the costs are also much higher.
3. Exercise equipment. We know that obesity leads to higher medical costs than even smoking. Thus, this provides an obvious health benefit to the user.

These really are simple questions.

[Cerridwen]

110. Answered in post #77. This attempt at derail addressed within.

You’re Not Being Intellectual Enough/You’re Being Overly Intellectual

These two steps are always best exercised when married together. They can definitely be used individually, but you will further dismay and infuriate the Marginalised Person™ in question if you use them together.

The key here is maintaining a careful blend of disdain and dismissal no matter what the Marginalised Person™ throws at you.

It is important, as a Privileged Person®, to constantly hedge Marginalised People™ according to both your class and your expectations of them.

Even though the conversation taking place is reflective of or about real life circumstances and situations for human beings, you must be careful to first insist on placing it within an academic framework. If the Marginalised Person™ involved is speaking in vernacular and placing too much emphasis on Lived Experience©, you must swiftly impress that you cannot consider it a proper "debate" unless theory and philosophy play a key component, complete with big words normally not found outside of academic papers. This is another way of pressing home your own privilege by demanding the conversation take place on terms the Marginalised Person™ may not be intimate with. After all, academia has little to do with reality, but pretending that it does is sure to undermine your opponent.

[joeglow3]

121. While that website is funny, they need to add one more

Continually linking to said website.

[Cerridwen]

124. Already done. (edited)

From the owner of Derailing for Dummies:

Please do feel free to link to D4D anywhere at anytime. I am keeping myself anonymous because I want D4D to be considered as a universal resource; to draw the marginalised together and in alliance.

You can quote, copy and paste, and link to D4D freely, without asking permission and as often and widely as you like. Of course, I would appreciate a link back to the website in order to keep the viral network going. The only thing I ask is that you please do not claim authorship. If you see anyone with an established identity or anyone posting from an individual identity (i.e.: anything that is not "Derailing for Dummies") claiming authorship of D4D, assume they are lying.

ETA: Just as soon as people stop using the same tired strategies as justification for their sexist take that women's issues belong in the dustbin of discussion and are insignificant to the whole and those very same people stop telling the "fucking women" to, ya know, just stop fucking, then I'll quit posting back the same old site over and over to address the same old sexism; over and over.

[Tesha]

158. You could save a lot of typing by just referring to the objections by number.

For example: "#3!"

Tesha

[Scout]

112. you don't need to see your doctor and get a PRESCRIPTION for vitamins

and organic foods.

birth control is MEDICINE, it should be covered by insurance.

else let's stop covering pregnancy, childbirth, labor, delivery. it's YOUR CHOICE to squeeze out crotch droppings, why should my insurance have to cover it?

the only thing that seems "simple" around here are your posts.

[joeglow3]

119. You lay out 2 views in your post

1. You need a prescription.

So, is this the mitigating factor? If so, I can understand that view.

2. it's YOUR CHOICE to squeeze out crotch droppings, why should my insurance have to cover it?

Using this logic, we should also not cover obesity related ailments, as it is your choice to be fat and lazy? Of course not. However, that also doesn't mean we should cover anything and everything that can be used to mitigate obesity.

[Scout]

133. "as it is your choice to be fat and lazy"

being fat is not a choice.

you have no medical necessity to have children. you won't die if you don't have children. so, no coverage for squeezing them out.

[joeglow3]

145. Being fat is a choice for many (but not all)

I say this as a 190 pound person who once weighed 295.

[Odin2005]

207. I get it, you think poor women should be punished for having sex...

...by burdening them with children. I know how your type's sick minds work.

[Quantess]

211. No, he just hasn't had to spend much personal time worrying about unintended pregnancies.

A lot of dumbass, clueless, men suffer this illusion. They have no idea what it is like to be a young woman who does not want to get pregnant at this time in her life.

I think in this idiot tool's case, it can be summed up in pure ignorance and boneheaded sexism.

[dflprincess]

130. By your reasoning, it is also "her choice"

to get pregnant so I'm assuming you would be okay with pregnancy and well baby care being removed from insurance policies.

I've never understood the insurance companies that don't pay for contraception. A year's worth of pills is a lot cheaper to cover than even a normal pregnancy and birth.

[noamnety]

180. Here, let me help you out.

Maybe I can phrase this in a way the women here can understand easier:

1. Men and women jointly have sex and are equally responsible for creating pregnancies.
2. Women should bear the sole burden for paying to prevent those pregnancies.
3. Women should also bear the sole burden for the cost of prenatal care and delivery.
4. Using birth control prevents women from having to do regular prenatal doctor visits, prevents them from undergoing a whole slew of medical complications, and often prevents them from having to undergo surgery - however, avoiding medical complications and surgery isn't considered a "health" issue, and thus "health" insurance shouldn't cover it.

That seems fair, can't see why women would have a problem with that.

;)

[dana_b]

185. thank you

I was going to say the same things but not as nicely as you did.

[Cerridwen]

191. Smooooooooooooooooooth. n/t

[Gormy Cuss]

94. It's a prescription medicine. As such, it should be included in plans with prescription coverage.

That's the law in about half the states.

[Ignis]

95. It's a personal choice to smoke, eat red meat, etc....

And yet medical insurance covers bypass surgery. :banghead:

Take a step back and think about how incredibly sexist your "personal choice" argument really is.

[tblue37]

122. And Viagra is covered by most plans--because it is for MEN.

Their personal choice to have sex is, of course, sacrosanct.

[Ignis]

143. B-b-but that's DIFFERENT! They don't have lady parts! (nt)

[lark]

186. What about Viagra?

Should it be covered? What about pregnancy, cover it or not since it's a choice? What about reconstruction after cancer - should the choice not to look deformed be covered? See what a slippery slope this is?

[liberal_at_heart]

212. Medical need? It's called being free not a slave.

Throughout time all over the world women have been considered nothing more than property. They are given away as wives to men they don't love. They have to have sex when they don't want to. They have no say over how many children they have or when they have them. It is only when women demand the right to their reproductive freedom that they gain any control over when they have sex and when to have babies and how many to have and gain any standing in society other than just baby machines. Men have been telling women how to have babies for centuries. Giving birth, giving life is the most powerful thing a human being can do. Men feel they must control this process. They convince us we are the weaker sex and that they know what is best for us and they know what God wants. They don't know squat.

[Gormy Cuss]

57. It'd be new in the 27 states where it's currently mandated coverage.

In about half of the states any health insurance plan with prescription drug coverage must cover oral contraceptives and other prescription contraceptives because they are after all just another prescription.

http://www.guttmacher.org/statecenter/spibs/spib_ICC.pdf

[Manifestor_of_Light]

14. I wanna see that "Adopt a Blastocyst" program.

Like adopt a highway.

If momma don't want it, you pay for prenatal care, expensive tests if needed, delivery, medical complications of both momma and baby, and then you feed it, love it, take care of it, send it to college.......oh wait.........:wtf:

[madfloridian]

24. lol Had not heard of that program.

Good one. :hi:

[Blue_In_AK]

15. I've been thinking about this.

One way to assure wars until the end of mankind is to do away with other, more humane forms of population control.

In an ironic twist of fate, pro-life is actually pro-death.

[lark]

188. I've noticed that too

Most of the people who are anti-abortion are very pro death eg war. Maybe they just want the extra babies as cannon fooder?

[eShirl]

19. "poison pill" it; tie it to a ban on porn. n/t

[kiranon]

85. Good idea. The way to stop these policies are to tie them to something

near and dear to them.

[ohheckyeah]

20. No birth control plus

no abortion equals more babies for the "Christian" crisis pregnancy centers to adopt out to other good white Christians.

[juno jones]

23. And more babies for the good catholic hospitals to

charge the state for the birth of.

It's good for buisness. :sarcasm:

[sorrowspath]

27. funny you mention catholic hospitals

because I just came across an article saying that in the 1847, the Catholic Church is also against
anesthesia. They demand that women suffer in childbirth as Genesis dictates 3:16


http://puckeypower.com/?p=482
http://bedejournal.blogspot.com/2008/12/deep-sleep-of-adam.html

I wish i was joking but I'm serious. This group of people are so backwards. Will sacrifice women for their religious ideologies.

[Rozlee]

58. They also smashed microscopes at a college lab in the 1800s

because they were outraged that it was being taught that women had eggs (ovum). The Bible taught that men provided the Seed and that women provided the Soil to grow a new life. Women, damn it, did not have any Seed.

[Enthusiast]

68. That's almost funny.

Almost.

[Enthusiast]

67. I believe they have changed

that policy since 1847.

[The Green Manalishi]

109. And more cannon fodder for the war machine.

[cornermouse]

25. Not that it was exactly from the political spectrum

but don't forget the "women don't need mammograms till they're 50" garbage they trotted out yesterday. And remember a couple of years back when some on DU proposed that the ERA be brought back up and were told the ERA was out-of-date and unnecessary? It looks to me like "war" has been declared on women.

[bliss_eternal]

28. kicking...

:kick:

[placton]

29. if only the PRESIDENT

finds about this, I am sure he will do something. He has a wife and 2 daughters, after all.

[Xicano]

30. You bunch of gawd damned heathen liberals. :p

[DU GrovelBot]

33. ## PLEASE DONATE TO DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND! ##

This week is our fourth quarter 2009 fund drive. Democratic Underground is
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[joeglow3]

35. Is it medically necessary if you don't have to take it?

I fully support contraception. However, it is a choice (mind you, a choice that should be encouraged at every possible chance). Unless it is needed for medical reasons, I don't think it is unreasonable to exclude those who are using it for recreational purposes.

[Name removed]

38. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dgibby]

40. At the very least, in the interest of fairness and all that,

then Viagra, etc, shouldn't be covered, but it is. Just one more benefit of being a member of the good old boys club, I guess.

[joeglow3]

62. While I agree with you that it should not be covered, I can buy its inclusion

One could make the argument that it is treating a part of the body that is not functioning properly. That said, we have a limited amount of resources to spend on health care and we should focus our money on more direct medical needs and worry about recreational issues later.

[Cerridwen]

79. See post #78. n/t

[joeglow3]

105. See post #106 nt.

[alstephenson]

98. Oh, PLEEEZE, just GO AWAY!!!

PLEEEEEZE!:mad: I was having a relatively good day until I started reading your idiotic posts.

[joeglow3]

107. See post #106

Seriously, these are easy questions. There is no reason to resort to childish attacks and emotional responses. If you disagree, answer the questions. Give me insight. Convince me my reasoning is flawed. I am more than willing to change my opinions when given intelligent responses.

However, childish responses like "Please Go Away," "Fuck Off," etc. really don't do much to further discussion.

[alstephenson]

150. Whatever.

Just please go away.

[niceypoo]

219. If this persons posts bring you so much pain and anguish...

...stop seeking them out and reading them

[Scout]

117. so men are supposed to be able to get erections their entire lives?

sez who?

if your penis isn't functioning properly, you aren't going to DIE; it is not MEDICALLY necessary that you have erections.

so, no boner drugs for the old boys!

[uppityperson]

136. Viagra treats "a part of the body that is not functioning properly" while contraceptives are merely

personal choice?

wow. Simply, wow.

[lark]

190. Interesting

sex for men is recreational and with a subtext of somewhat necessary, but sex for women is recreational and not necessary?

Amazing illogic.

[Odin2005]

209. Your knuckle-dragging sexism is showing.

You should get boner pills but women should not get BC pills? Fuck you, you sexist pig.

[Hestia]

168. And in the interest of fairness, I don't think fertility treatment should be covered, why should I

pay for someone else's rug rat, at $10k per treatment?

[Enthusiast]

71. Sorry, Joe.

No one here agrees with you. Maybe if you go to freeperville with your proposal you will find someone that will embrace your idea.

[Cerridwen]

76. Yes. It's called preventative.

Just as watching one's weight or blood sugar or salt intake is preventative if one has a family history for, or other physiological predisposition for diabetes, high blood pressure, heart disease, etc.

Women, with healthy reproductive organs are predisposed to becoming pregnant. Sex is considered good for one's health. Pregnancy is treated as a medical condition.

Birth control is preventative.

Beyond this point, I'll not argue with someone who uses Derailing for Dummies as a how-to.

[joeglow3]

113. Thanks for the response

I apologize for posting the other comments before I saw this reponse. What you say makes sense and I can agree with it. However, the obvious follow up question for me is what else do we include? As I said above, we know obesity (and accompanying diabetes) is the highest single cost factor in health care. Do we include items like exercise equipment, gym memberships, etc? Clearly, if we could get everyone doing this, our medical costs as a nation would plummet.

My personal view is that this is a necessary item that should be provided based on socio-economic needs outside of the medical bill. We can afford birth control and, given that usage has everything to do with a desire to have no more kids and nothing to do with health issues, should be able to provide for it.

[Cerridwen]

123. Ahhhhh, just playing "Devil's Advocate," I see.

Surprise! I Was Playing “Devil’s Advocate” All Along!

It can happen: you may reach the point where, in spite of expertly using all of these tactics, you’re suddenly struck by the discomfiting notion that maybe the Marginalised People™, uh, have a point.
This doesn’t feel very good for any Privileged Person®. It’s highly uncomfortable for a start-off, the sensation you may be wrong about something. But even worse, it may mean you have to endure the humiliation of admitting that!!

But never fear, for all is not lost! You can still worm your way out of this one!

Simply say:

"It was all a social experiment!"

This makes it okay, you see! Not only does it imply to the Marginalised People™ you’re really not the ignorant, obnoxious bigot you might be beginning to realise you are, you successfully communicate to them that you are that insensitive, that arrogant and that much of a douchebag you would take very real and serious issues that affect their lives and treat them as nothing more than a theoretical discussion for your own detached amusement!

In this way you cover your arse whilst affirming your privilege!

Note to mods from owner of Derailing for Dummies:

You can quote, copy and paste, and link to D4D freely, without asking permission and as often and widely as you like. Of course, I would appreciate a link back to the website in order to keep the viral network going. The only thing I ask is that you please do not claim authorship. If you see anyone with an established identity or anyone posting from an individual identity (i.e.: anything that is not "Derailing for Dummies") claiming authorship of D4D, assume they are lying. (emphasis added)

[joeglow3]

144. ?????

I am not paying devil's advocate. I am posting my views and the reasoning behind it. I am freely open to listening to other's views and, if necessitated, changing my views based on what I learn.

As opposed to simply trolling by linking to the same site without contributing to the discussion.

[Cerridwen]

172. Bored now.

If you don't like that you're getting metaphorically whapped upside the head with a clue-by-four, quit expecting us to educate you on an issue that's been around for decades.

Oh, and by the way;

If You Won't Educate Me How Can I Learn

But further, you give the impression that you really want to learn, but they’re holding you back! That’s right, using this tactic you can suggest that full understanding is what you crave - you want to be a better, more connected and compassionate person - but it’s not your fault! Nobody ever gave you the education! And now that someone is here who is so obviously qualified, they’re denying you your Privilege® given right to have everything you want handed to you on a platter!

Which brings us to another key component of this argument - it is very important, in conversations with Marginalised People™, to constantly remind them that you are, indeed, Privileged®. By demonstrating your belief that Marginalised People™ should immediately gratify your every whim, you remind them of their place in society. After all, they’re not there to live lives free of discrimination and in happy, independent and fulfilling ways! Please! Marginalised People™ exist for your curiosity and to make you generally feel better about your place in society and don’t let them forget it!

[joeglow3]

203. I'm not looking for education

I am stating my view and you are simply stating "no, you are wrong" and then posting shit from a troller's website. After reading through all those links, it is like a telemarketer - i.e. there is an answer for every possible response, thereby allowing you to post a link and arrogantly believe you are enlightened without offering anything intelligent. It is almost as if you are stuck in your teenage years.

[Cerridwen]

204. "I'm not looking for education" - obviously. n/t

[madfloridian]

208. ooh...now that is a pretty petty thing to say. You attack the poster personally...

instead of presenting a real argument.

Not very nice.

[joeglow3]

210. Are you serious???

I have stated my view and reasoning in multiple threads and all I have received is a teenager's cop out. Yeah, I will attack after dozens of meaningless posts that contribute and discuss nothing.

[alstephenson]

153. Yeah, right. Birth control = exercise equipment.

Get a clue.

[NashVegas]

89. Did You Miss the Part About Pelvic Exams? STDs?

Even women who were pure virgins upon getting married need those. Are you up for invading womens' privacy and separating the chaste from the "recreational" sexually-active?

[Gormy Cuss]

96. That's not currently the test used to determine coverage. n/t

[JerseygirlCT]

142. "recreational purposes"?

It's medically necessary to prevent an unwanted medical condition - pregnancy.

It's medically necessary if the woman decides it is, IOW.

[noiretextatique]

169. wow...you're a complete idiot eom

[Echo In Light]

36. Professor/author/dissident Mark Crispin Miller wrote of this in Bush/Cheney: Cruel & Unusual

He says that anti-birth control is art of the anti-abortion movement

[bertman]

39. Well, we asked for healthcare REFORM and now we have it--Republican christian style.

And this got introduced despite the fact that we have a Democratic President and majorities in the House and Senate. If that doesn't tell you all you need to know about the current so-called Democratic party, I don't know what does. The fact that something like this could even get INTO a proposed bill when the Democrats control the committees is shameful. Makes me feel like I'm back in the bad old days when we were fighting to legalize abortion.

Rec.

[lark]

193. You got it!

I used to donate to DSCC and pretty much any and all Dems, but no more. Dems have sold us down the river and are more and more like Repugs every day. Why should I pay to hire them when there's barely a hair breadth's difference. I am sick that Obama is supporting this absolute BS. I expected better.

[karynnj]

41. Does the bill have that level of detail on what is and what is not included?

I have not read any of the bills, so this is a question for any more diligent people than I am. When she writes that, "no requirement in the health care reform to have birth control paid for, to have pelvic exams paid for, to have STDs covered by insurance." my immediate question is whether the bill actually has a list of what will be covered.

My guess is that there is no such list, so you can just as easily say that bone cancer or high blood pressure are not included in the bill. I find it very hard to believe that basic wellness exams, including pelvic exams, or infections of ANY type are not covered.

As to birth control, I would assume that it is in the insurers' interests to cover it under the drug benefit. I don't know how much is the insurers' discounts or how much they actually pay after the co-payment, but it has to be less than the costs of the additional pregnancies that result (even allowing for the fact that many might be aborted by self paid abortions).

[TwilightGardener]

43. That's what I'm wondering, too--and maybe if Congress doesn't mention it, then

insurers in the planned exchange can offer it, even to subsidized women in the public option. As opposed to being hampered by something like the Hyde or Stupak amendments RE abortion services. I'm not going to get outraged until I see what develops.

[Cerridwen]

82. I believe the author said no. What follows is a true story of why that's important.

I lived in a coldish part of the country that had about a month or horrifically hot days during the summer. Few to none of the apartments in that area included air conditioning. It made that month during summer miserable.

While talking with some friends in the building industry, I asked why it was that the builders didn't include a/c while the hot part of the state I came from included heat, though the weather in my home city would be cold enough for heat only a month or maybe a bit more, each winter.

The response. The law said they were required to provide heat. The law did not specifically state they were required to provide a/c.

For additional examples of why it is necessary on far too many occasions for legislation to state specifically what is included, read some Constitutional "debates" offered by the neo-cons of what rights the Constitution does and does not protect. If a right isn't specifically mentioned in the Constitution, so goes their "debate," it was not intended to be included, so goes their "deduction."

[madfloridian]

91. The author referred to Mikulski's proposal....I looked it up for you.

From The Nation:

Where's the birth control?

"Consider what happened when the subject of women's preventive healthcare services came up in the Senate Health, Education, Labor and Pensions Committee (HELP) in July, after the minimum benefits package had already been determined. Because some essential care for women wasn't included in the list, HELP committee member Senator Barbara Mikulski proposed an amendment that would require the Health Resources and Services Administration (HRSA) to stipulate that basic women's health services would be covered. The language said nothing about abortion, referring only to "preventive care and screenings."

Yet the voting on the amendment went exactly along pro- and anti-choice lines. The amendment passed by just one vote, with all the committee's Republicans as well as Pennsylvania Senator Robert Casey, an anti-abortion Democrat, voting against it. The committee's discussion of the amendment was dominated by Republicans' worry about the possibility of government money winding up in the hands of Planned Parenthood. Since there is no similar language included in the just-released House bill, the only hope for requiring full coverage for these essential services now lies with the Senate.

While some within the anti-abortion movement have long opposed birth control, there is still widespread support for it among the general public, with virtually all women of childbearing age who have had sex using contraception. So why would senators treat birth control and other basic women's health services as a proxy for abortion? "People equate family planning services with Planned Parenthood, and they equate Planned Parenthood with abortion," says Adam Sonfield, an expert on funding for reproductive health services at the Guttmacher Institute. The senators who turned Mikulski's language into a referendum on abortion "either misunderstood or purposely distorted the amendment."

[rasputin1952]

42. I, for one, fight zealotry in any form...

how can someone be "afraid" of the a very small minority of vociferous maniacs?

The hell with them, let them lives their lives as they see fit, and for God's Sake, leave everyone else alone!

[valerief]

45. No abortion, no birth control, no vasectomies, but definitely pay for VIAGRA!!!!!

WTF??????????????????

[ensho]

46. kick

nt

[paparush]

48. Christo-Taliban - We're Pro Life...so keep funding the wars and don't fsck with capital punishment!

[abelenkpe]

49. Seem like everyday

I read an article of a child abandoned, abused, neglected, killed by their parents. Parents so young, and so clearly forced into having a child they were unprepared for. If these young mothers had been taught sex education in school, had access to free birth control would there be so many of these cases?
It seems to me that those that deny people of contraception cannot think past step one, have no real concern for the children they claim to want to protect, and have a not so secret desire to restore the 12th century idea of a woman's place in society.

[paparush]

50. Are they going to protest a man's right to choose a vasectomy?

I bet they would squirm out of their chastity belts when confronted with that question.

I, for one, am NOT having mine reversed!

[Buzz Clik]

52. No traction. Most people will see no relationship between contraception and abortion.

The insanity is running amok.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

69. Exactly.

And I think a good number of the Democrats who may have voted on the Stupak Amendment as it relates to abortion won't vote for a similar provision for birth control. I think they are smart and pragmatic enough to know the difference and that doing so would be counterproductive.

Not that there aren't some who would want to lump in birth control on the same level as abortion. But it's going to be significantly less and I doubt it would pass.

But, hey, mob mentality hysteria is fun!

[Buzz Clik]

80. Rove was good at this. The current crowd is a bunch of wannabes.

[madfloridian]

87. "mob mentality hysteria" So you agree with that?

So now we are down to "mob mentality hysteria" when we speak of women's rights at a Democratic forum?

[Buzz Clik]

88. Why don't you climb up the ass of the person who said it?

Jeebus effin' Cristo.

[madfloridian]

90. Because I know he thinks that....I was surprised you agreed...apparently

you do and I asked.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

120. You don't know anything.

The mob mentality doesen't have anything to do with "women's rights"; it has everything to do with attempting to paint people with solid Democratic voting records as DINOs who must be primaried out all because of a single bill on a single issue. The facts support otherwise.

[madfloridian]

129. Wrong. Women are NOT single issue. They failed to stand for our rights.

Get mad at me, whatever you need to do.....but our party let women down.

So far they have let women, gays, and teachers down with their policies. It is time to speak up.

Yes, Obama inherited a huge mess. Yes, it will take time to fix it if it can be fixed.

Meanwhile there is no one standing up for the rights of women and gays, and they are actively harming teachers' unions.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

131. Of course women aren't a single issue. I never said women were a single issue.

What gave rise to the pitchforks and torches, however, is a single issue.

[Cerridwen]

164. What gave rise to well founded anger was, first abortion rights

then birth control.

See how that works. No, of course you don't. Because to you it is a "single issue" to be bandied about as though it's of minor concern since it doesn't, ya know, concern you.

Don't You Have More Important Issues To Think About

When you're beginning to feel backed into a corner, you could do worse than to trot this one out.

As with the best of all these techniques, this step operates on several levels. First of all, it communicates to the Marginalised Person™ that you think the entire debate is trivial and below consideration, indicating you entirely disregard their feelings and emotions. Secondly, you disown responsibility for your part in the debate and anything that you've said that may have been discriminatory or offensive.

Finally, you reinforce your Privilege® by suggesting that it is Privileged People's® job to set the agenda for the Marginalised Group™. After all, how could they possibly know what issues they should prioritise for themselves, they're far too inferior and stupid! You, with your objective, ractional Privileged® perspective, on the other hand, know exactly what is most important and it is definitely not confronting you with your own bigotry and ignorance!

[fascisthunter]

173. Forced Birth

for the religious right wing to try to control, to judge, and to try to punish. There is nothing holy or spiritual about these people. It appears to me, these folks have god and lucifer mixed up.

[Cerridwen]

178. I wonder how many generations after enacting the draconian measures

these people want to enact, before the entire class of people regulated to poverty would be dead.

It's like Dickens on steroids developed by some evil scientist from an old "B" move and Snidely Whiplash is the conductor.

edit: I think that was one too many commas.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

217. Psst....your schtick is getting old.

Wait, let me guess. You've got another cut and paste for me, right? :eyes:

Fine, I'll just match you with my own canned response. Beware the Shat!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5b1a-hqvGNI&feature=related

[Buzz Clik]

128. Keep being surprised, I interpreted his comment differently than you did.

No, I don't consider women's issues to be a product of mob mentality/mass hysteria.

I'm sorry you took it that way.

[Cerridwen]

100. Awwww, another two-fer.

You're Interrogating From The Wrong Perspective

Once again (and truly a fundamental aspect of derailing) you demonstrate your lack of awareness of their issues but you also get to tell them that they're wrong because you (and all the other Privileged People®) simply know better. Try it out and just wait and see what you get back.

AND

You're Being Overemotional

After all, proper "intellectual" discussions always involve detachment and rationality. What is "rationality"? It’s a way of approaching emotional matters devoid of sentiment, particularly prized by Privileged People® as it enables a continuing inequity of power that favours them: after all, if they aren’t emotionally attached to the topic by way of Lived Experience©, it is easier for them to be "rational".

[dflprincess]

114. You have more faith in the Congressional stooges than I do

Based on their performance to date I wouldn't be surpised to see them vote for a contraception ban thinking they can impress the Reich wing. Throwing their base under the bus is what they do best because "we have no where else to go" - or so they like to think.

[defendandprotect]

53. Americans have to decide whether they want a new religious crusade or democracy . . .

THIS is all right wing financed -- because democracy isn't as profitable

as exploitation --

And, yes -- don't kid yourselves -- organized patriarchal religion is still

willing to use violence to get what it wants -- consider 1.5 million Muslims

dead -- rather convenience for Christianity.

This is also a very wealthy opponent of democracy and women's rights --

homosexual rights -- human rights -- right to personal conscience and free thought.

And at this point we're subsidizing them!!

[Enthusiast]

63. There is no question

in my mind that given complete authority these extremists would take every single frozen zygote, from every fertility clinic, and have them implanted in some female citizen, willing or unwilling. That is why they are "extremists".

[fascisthunter]

66. do Americans want a Democracy or a Theocracy

because you can't have both, which is indicative even today.

[lark]

195. The Reich wing wants a theocracy

and Dems are too spineless to stand up for our rights. Makes me fucking sick.

[Vidar]

74. K&R

[smirkymonkey]

83. I know a lot of women who are happily looking forward to

menopause. Myself included.

[tblue37]

126. I love menopause. Finished up about 5 years ago. nt

[debbierlus]

84. Kick & Recommend - So out of control

[Solly Mack]

92. k/r

[TomClash]

132. Maybe millions of women should take to the streets nt

[madfloridian]

137. We did that....about a million of us.

C-Span coverage crashed suspiciously, and no one else covered it.

I have some pictures saved somewhere, but no one even knew we did it.

[TomClash]

149. A million marched? On this issue?

When? There was less than zero MSM coverage.

[madfloridian]

152. Link

http://march.now.org/

[Scout]

151. are you talking about in 1991? i think we did get 1 million, but you're right,

no (or very little) coverage.

[madfloridian]

155. No, in 2004

http://march.now.org/

[ismnotwasm]

139. It's a disgusting situation

And it's so weird so surreal, that I start to think weird, surreal thoughts like, well maybe women should simply refuse pregnancies and hetero sex for a while. Straight women can explore their inner bi-sexual or buy a few toys. Prostitutes everywhere should go on strike or strictly limit the type of acts they peform, as well as jack up prices ten fold. If we can't have the basic human right of reproductive health, why take the risk, why make the sacrifice, of pregnancy?


Men can do what they've always done--without women.

[Hestia]

140. Who are these "most people"? Do they go to every trailer trash, ghetto

senior center in the country to get their stats? WTMFH? Women I talk to are aghast at their insurance paying for viagra but not birth control.

Women, why are we voting for these men anyway, allowing them to even think they have this type of control? We are the majority, let's start acting like it.

Yes, I use trailer trash just exactly like it is suppose to sound. I use ghetto due to the men knocking up the women and stealing their check at the first of the month. If there is a PC word for these type of men, let me know. Maybe I'll start using it.

[JerseygirlCT]

141. When are we going to wake up and demand

that our candidates fully and completely support women's right?

We need a whole lot more women in government, period. So much so that the very idea that these basics of health care wouldn't be fully covered would be shocking.

This is infuriating.

[Politicub]

146. This needs to get out there - it may wake more women (and men for that matter) up

Not that the people of DU need waking up, but I doubt the vast majority of people know contraception is under attack.

[Triana]

147. leads WOMEN to "promiscuity" eh? NO MENTION of MEN in this. Are they innocent?

I THINK NOT.

This is only ONE problem with these mysogenist attitudes.

[Christa]

148. Oh god

:cry:




we are so fucked ...

[RC]

154. All birth Control, including abortion needs to be covered.

Our sheer numbers are destroying most other life on this planet. Birth Control is not only a womans choice, but is essential for our survival as a species, as well as what's left of the wildlife whose habitat we haven't destroyed for our living space yet.

The human animal is a selfish, arrogant species that cannot see beyond its own finger tips at any one moment in time. We cannot see the damage we is doing to the only nest we will ever know. There is nowhere else for us to go, but here.

[niceypoo]

220. And saran wrap, just for emergencies

It clings!

[madfloridian]

156. Fear of controversy.

"Women’s health advocates reported that some Democrats cited a fear of igniting controversy when asked to insert birth control and other preventive services for women into the minimum benefits package. What’s the controversy, exactly? It seems birth control has become a suddenly loaded political issue, a toxic sister to abortion, somehow resonant of irresponsible sex and women’s bodies. And this time around, no one wanted reform to collapse under the weight of special interest groups’ requests, as the Clinton effort did in 1993. Ultimately, people fell back on budget concerns. Adding to the list of services insurers must offer would have given the bill a higher score from the Congressional Budget Office—and made it more vulnerable to attack from budget hawks.

But there was certainly no medical justification for excluding contraception from a list of services to be covered without co-payment, which included newborn care and pediatric vision services. Surely fertile women don’t represent a “special interest group,” since the overwhelming majority of women—including more than 80 percent of Catholics—use birth control. For most, the need is chronic, which helps explain the fact that, even though most plans now cover contraception to some degree, women already pay more than men out of their own pockets for health care. To wind up with two children (roughly the average family size), most women need to use contraception for about three decades."

http://scribe.doublex.com/section/news-politics/why-doesnt-health-care-cover-birth-control

[USAF Brat]

157. Birth control (pills) are not just for contraceptive purposes

They are also used by Dr.'s to control some hormonal imbalances, control excessive tissue build up in the uterus, and sometimes even help control certain kinds of migraine headaches.

Without a pelvic exam how will a woman ever find out if she has cervical cancer? Or an ectopic pregnancy (requires EMERGENCY surgery), ovarian cysts and a host of other things that can go wrong with these organs accessed by pelvic exam?

I tend to say if they can eliminate coverage for these, then there should be no problem with cutting prostate exams and any exam that discovers any reproductive health issues with men as well. Because, you know, they can't affect any other part of your body or it's functions, right?

[noamnety]

196. Yep, the whole argument is based on refusing "preventative" care.

If preventing a medical situation shouldn't be covered, make it consistent.
My partner has a prescription for high blood pressure. The high blood pressure itself doesn't cause him any problems, but there's the chance that without medication he could develop a complication from the high blood pressure that would cause a heart attack. So the medication is covered to prevent a medical problem that doesn't yet exist.

My daughter used to have an epipen prescription because of a nut allergy. That was a person responsibility issue for her, she could have prepared her own food and not had to worry about whether she might accidentally eat an almond at a bake sale or pot luck. But she CHOSE to eat out instead of preparing all her meals from scratch, and the epi-pen allowed her to reduce or eliminate the risks of that choice.

[bridgit]

159. That is C St & the Ratzinger of Rome, and *that* is the Holy See codifying women...

as little more than brood mares

[Arugula Latte]

174. Gawd those pictures make me want to puke.

Evil old white men ... Disgusting, vile, power-crazed assholes.

[bridgit]

224. yup

:puke:

[rucky]

161. Totally proves abortion is all about control of the bedroom. n/t

[Greyhound]

194. Control of women. n/t

[liberal_at_heart]

176. Birth control is something I will march in the streets and go to jail to protect

For me abortion is a complicated issue. I say this as a person who has had an abortion. For some women such as myself ending the life of a fetus can be very difficult emotionally. I do support abortion rights but could see some compromise being made by both sides if the religious right was willing to increase access for birth control, increase access to sex education, encourage more people to adopt, and establish a community support system for poor mothers. But it's pretty obvious that not only do they not intend on increasing access to birth control and sex education they plan on slowly eroding our access to it just as they have done to access to abortion. I have two beautiful children. I have alot of love to give and am grateful for my children. But I am also the kind of mother who would not be able to handle more children. The 24 hr a day/7 days a week/365 days a year lifetime commitment it takes to be a parent is very taxing on me. One of my kids is a teenager and the other is approaching teenage. I will love them forever, but I'm looking forward to them being out of the house. I'm telling you birth control is something I would be willing to go to jail for to protect that freedom. I just realized something while I was sitting here typing this. I wonder if the reason they have been so successful in taking away abortion rights is because they have done it gradually, slowly, state by state. If they tried to take it away all it once we would all be out in the streets fighting for it, but with the little incremental laws they put in place state by state we allow them to get away with it. I just bet they will do the same with birth control. And if they do it that way with birth control they just may get away with it. Oh, now I am scared.

[Cowpunk]

177. It's very important that our laws conform to the 4000 yr old ravings of mentally ill people N.T.

[liberal_at_heart]

181. I hear they are very close to inventing a femal viagra

It will be interesting to see if insurance companies will cover the female viagra as many of them do cover the males viagra. I'm guessing they won't.

[kestrel91316]

197. I told you so. I have been SCREAMING for YEARS about how their real target

was birth control, and the total enslavement of women their goal.

They also want to go back to the days of one household-one vote. And we will sit on our fat, lazy asses and let them do it.

I hate to say it. I believe I will live to see the day when birth control is again illegal, like it was until I was 6 years old.

[dgibby]

214. I think it goes even futher than that.

I think the ultimate goal is to get the majority of women out of the workplace. I also think it has to do with the fact that white people are soon going to be in the minority in the US. Of course, the idiots don't take into account that if everyone is denied BC,etc, then white people will STILL be in the minority because there's less of them to begin with. Duh!

[kestrel91316]

216. Of course. The majority of RWers are Dominionists, but most of

them know bette than to publicize the fact.

[dgibby]

218. Bingo! n/t

[KakistocracyHater]

198. I have been warning of this FOR YEARS

it's wahy I don't call it "choice" because that is too narrow to counter the Right's lies. I call it birth control. Or contraception/contraceptives, may they never be contra-goods, funneled thru Humanistic groups hiding from the Crhistian Right Government.

[glitch]

200. Too bad it's the only thing that actually prevents abortion.

But then that's not what they are really after, is it?

[twitomy]

201. So now instead of battling insurance companies

to get things covered, we will have to battle politics and the politicians..

Oh joy thats some kind of "reform"

Make the people who pay the premiums the owners of the plan and let them decide what is to be covered.

[BrklynLiberal]

205. IT is very hard to come up with just the right words to describe the horror, anger and revulsion

that this kind of reactionary, primitive, misogynistic bull inspires in me!!!

I hope that it soon gets to the point where we are all furious enough to REALLY stand up and let these assholes know that we will not put up with this crap!!!!





I am so furious that I am shaking!!!!

:mad: :wtf: :spank: :rant: :puke: :scared: :nuke:

[liberal_at_heart]

213. Maybe instead of marching in the streets we should just stop having sex.

Who do you think could hold out longer men or women? Maybe they would just pay a prostitute. Oh, wait she's not allowed to use contraception either. Oops. What will the men do? Of course it would never work because as always women are nothing more than property to men. They would start demanding sex and raping women.

[niceypoo]

221. Actually you have it backwards...

Men are nothing more than property to women. When their man refuses to give them the sex they constantly demand they head off to find stiffer competition.

Women are animals, sexually, in my experience.

[liberal_at_heart]

222. Who are these women you speak of that are lucky enough

to have sex drives? Are they young single women? Because women my age have the weight of the world on their shoulders and it can drastically affect their sex drives. It's kind of funny too because they say that women are suppose to peak in their thirties. My husband has been waiting for me to hit mine. Still haven't. Between getting kids ready for school, helping them with homework, cooking, cleaning, taking kids to extra curricular activities, taking care of aging parents, and many, many, other responsibilities I don't have much of a sex drive. I even have a very loving relationship with my husband and I don't even work outside the home and still with all I have to deal with, still no sex drive. Young people are lucky. Sex is how they relieve stress. When you get older it is the stress that keeps you from having sex.

[niceypoo]

223. My condolences

...on your situation. My wife would wake me up at 3 AM, if that is what it took.