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The logical lapses of the anti-vaccine movement.

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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-17-09 03:29 AM
Original message
The logical lapses of the anti-vaccine movement.
snip

In the logic lapse department, stop number one is Scientific Studies. The data supporting autism simply isn’t there in study after study. In fact, the British study that garnered rabid media attention was later retracted by its lead author and, as the mass media omitted, the study only used twelve children. The Immunization Action Coalition has a complete list of studies for and against (23 to 2 if you’re keeping score). And if you take the time to check this list out, take a moment, too, to notice the numbers of children involved in each of the studies. Thousands more children are examined in the “no connection” studies. For a correlation to exist, the occurrence of event “X” (in this case, autism) most happen more often in the group receiving the treatment (in this case a vaccine) compared to the same rate of occurrence of event “X” among those not receiving it. The number of study participants also must be sufficiently large enough to be representative of the entire population and decrease the possibility that the results are due to chance.


snip


Autism diagnosis guidelines (DSMV-IV) changed significantly in 1992, affecting how it is diagnosed and the number of kids diagnosed with it. (Brief history of diagnostic evolution here). In short, it was expanded and the criteria are more inclusive than the European counterparts; we add a number of autism-like diseases in with the autism, which falsely inflates the numbers. For a comparator here, consider attention deficit disorder or ADD. It didn’t used to be all that either, but thanks to another section of the DSMV-IV criteria, more and more children each year are diagnosed with it and placed on ADD drugs. So, changing the guidelines by which something is diagnosed, can increase (or decrease) the numbers of diagnosed patients.


Next, amid outcry, thimerosal was removed by the turn-of-the-century from all but a few vaccines (complete list here), and nearly all having a non-thimerosal alternative. With that change, one would expect the autism rate to decline significantly. Never mind that if you accept the premise thimerosal/mercury = autism, the autism rate should have been sky high to start with, not increasing during the 1990’s, since all of us born in the 1960’s, 1970’s and 1980’s all received thimerosal containing vaccines. This chart lists autism prevalence studies conducted around the world starting as early as 1966. Notice the “Criteria used” column and how the “Prevalence” column’s numbers jump from less than one percent to four, five and six percent as everything moves into the DSMV-IV diagnosis criteria.


Our exposure to mercury in medicine has, in fact, decreased over the last 20 years, not increased. Mercury thermometers, (which are long since off the market though people continue to ask your Intrepid Pharmacist for one) and play toys like the Quicksilver games of the 1970’s and 80’s all increased the possibility of mercury exposure. With mercury having been in so many vaccines before, plus removal of other mercury products, we should see a decrease rather than an increase in autism rates. The reality is that in spite of thimerosal removal from most vaccines, the autism rate has not wavered significantly since the DSMV-IV criteria was put into place nearly 20 years ago (refer to the above paragraph’s chart). Thus, vaccines as the source must be ruled out no matter how desperately people wish to cling to this notion.


And then, of course, is the aforementioned half-life between ethyl and methyl mercuries and the required constant exposure for neural damage to occur. Taken in total, there is no way any rational person can buy the thimerosal in vaccines leads to autism argument. The bigger problem perhaps is the fact that, apart from HIV, there has been no communicable disease health crisis in this country in more than half a century and we are now dealing with several generations of people who do not remember the real threats and consequences of these diseases…and they probably won’t until something hits and people are dropping like flies (as we saw with HIV before the cocktail drug treatments). Which is sad for the children, who ultimately will be the ones to suffer for their parent’s decisions.



http://www.examiner.com/x-16391-Nashville-Health-Examiner~y2009m9d11-Holy-Mercury-Batmn-Reexamining-the-vaccineautism-controversy
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Chemisse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-17-09 04:49 AM
Response to Original message
1. I still order mercury thermometers on line
Or at least I did a few years ago. I still think they are the best.
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Johonny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-20-09 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #1
23. I still have a mercury manometer
but don't really use mercury thermometers for anything anymore. Mostly use thermal couples, much easier to tie into electronics. But that mercury manometer is just to useful for calibration to give up...
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Chemisse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-17-09 05:01 AM
Response to Original message
2. That makes sense.
The numbers should have plummeted after the thimerosol was removed if the mercury was the cause.

One logic flaw:

"Never mind that if you accept the premise thimerosal/mercury = autism, the autism rate should have been sky high to start with, not increasing during the 1990’s, since all of us born in the 1960’s, 1970’s and 1980’s all received thimerosal containing vaccines."

It fails to mention the huge increases in the numbers of vaccinations required for children over that time period.
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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-17-09 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. I'm not sure I understand your point.
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Chemisse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-17-09 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. I don't really know how else to say it
The logic in that particular statement is faulty because of the increase in the numbers of vaccines given to kids as the decades went by, which they neglected to mention.

The much stronger argument is the lack of drop in cases since the thimerosol was removed.
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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-18-09 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. How many vaccines do kids get now?
Some have dropped off the list and some new ones have been added but I wasn't aware it was a huge number.
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Chemisse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-18-09 05:06 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. I think it is 36, counting annual flu shots, through age 6
(Not counting that some are multiple antigens). Here is the link to 2008, I couldn't seem to get 2009 to open.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5701a8.htm

The oldest archive there (CDC) is 1983, and there appears to be just 6.




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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-18-09 11:39 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. You don't appear to be counting them the same way.
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Chemisse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-19-09 05:12 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. So how many? I provided the links - you count them.
Edited on Thu Nov-19-09 05:20 AM by Chemisse
Why on earth would you criticize the way I counted them, yet not provide a count yourself?
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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-20-09 01:35 AM
Response to Reply #14
17. Your own post shows at least 10 in 1983. Not sure how you got 6.
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Chemisse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-20-09 05:21 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. Ahh, you're right
I missed the polio vaccines, bringing it to 10. It's still a big jump to 36 or whatever you count them up to be in 2008.

To not acknowledge that change over the decades was disingenuous, even if the overall point he was making was correct. Skipping over contrary information does nothing to support one's stance to skeptics.
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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-20-09 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. I agree it is a big jump. Thanks for the info I have no kids so I wasn't aware.
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Chemisse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-20-09 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. No problem :)
It is an interesting topic.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-17-09 04:56 PM
Response to Original message
4. Oh, and don't forget that Jenny McCarthy is a fucking LIAR.
Edited on Tue Nov-17-09 04:57 PM by Odin2005
Her story of her kid "becoming autistic while getting the vaccine" does not pass the scientific sniff test. And she implied that us Autistics are "soulless" to boot.
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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-18-09 01:34 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. More likely gullible and misinformed.
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Posteritatis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-20-09 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #8
22. Gullible and misinformed with so much time for correction suggests it's deliberate
So at this point I would say she's a liar, and an idiot to boot due to consciously maintaining ignorance in the face of facts.
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Euromutt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-18-09 07:50 AM
Response to Reply #4
10. Of course, her kid was an "Indigo" before he was autistic...
McCarthy's been trying to scrub any and all evidence of her "there's nothing wrong with my kid, he's more highly developed" period off the internet, but that particular cat's long out of the bag. The Indigo thing was bullshit, the notion that the kid's autism was caused by vaccines equally so.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-17-09 06:02 PM
Response to Original message
5. KICK
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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-19-09 12:59 AM
Response to Reply #5
13. Thx.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-18-09 09:02 AM
Response to Original message
11. KICK
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nemo137 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-19-09 06:18 AM
Response to Original message
15. K&R
anti-vaxxers are dangerous.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-19-09 08:56 AM
Response to Original message
16. KICK
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katkat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-20-09 07:23 AM
Response to Original message
19. why I'm anti-vaccine or at least for free choice
I don't give a flying leap about scientific studies about vaccinations over large populations, because I got GB from a flu vaccine. That is enough for me to demand free choice and to mouth off about the dangers of vaccinations.

What people choose to do is their business, but pretending these are risk free is not the truth.
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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-20-09 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. Who is pretending that they are risk free?
People susceptible to GBS should be very careful about vaccines and consult a physician before taking any vaccination. That is only wise. To pretend that vaccines pose a high risk of serious illness to a significant portion of the population is just plain silly. I hope you made a full recovery from GBS.

David
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katkat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-20-09 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. Fire_Medic_Dave
Sure, Dave. And how was I supposed to know I was susceptible to GB before I got it?
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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-20-09 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. That's just silly. You presumably are aware you are susceptible to it now.
I may be giving you too much credit though.
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katkat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-21-09 05:00 AM
Response to Reply #28
31. you miss my point
Edited on Sat Nov-21-09 05:05 AM by katkat
Which is any number of people who have no idea GB even exists will wind up with it from vaccinations.

I may be giving you too much credit in assuming you understand that, though.
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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-21-09 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #31
35. That number is less than the number of people that will contract GBS after contracting influenza.
Edited on Sat Nov-21-09 05:48 PM by Fire_Medic_Dave
GBS is an extremely rare complication. Informed choice would also include the fact that GBS can occur after any viral illness and does so more frequently than after flu vaccinations. You support that information being passed along too, right?
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Spider Jerusalem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-20-09 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #19
27. Too bad for you; there is a chance of adverse reactions to vaccines, unfortunately.
But the chance of adverse reactions in a relatively small number of people is outweighed by the positive benefits of mass vaccination for potentially fatal diseases. Smallpox used to kill millions of people every year and is now extinct, thanks to vaccination. Childhood mortality rates are down by orders of magnitude because kids don't die by the thousands of rubella and diphtheria and other vaccine-preventable diseases. Being anti-vaccine because you personally had an adverse reaction is understandable, but it's also profoundly stupid when the benefits of vaccination are considered against the increases in mortality that an unvaccinated population would have.
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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-20-09 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. Exactly.
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katkat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-21-09 05:03 AM
Response to Reply #27
32. too bad - paralysis, etc.
Edited on Sat Nov-21-09 05:05 AM by katkat
Yeah, "too bad" for the people who have their lives ruined or put on hold for a year or more.

Let's just make people aware that that's a possibility instead of acting like vaccinations are fine for everyone.

That's called informed choice.

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Spider Jerusalem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-21-09 08:33 AM
Response to Reply #32
34. Yes, too bad
the odds are one in ten thousand thousand or so. Your odds of being in a fatal auto accident are considerably higher; are you going to campaign against driving as well?
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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-21-09 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #32
36. We give out information sheets that discuss GBS and the chances of it before people get vaccinated.
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GoneOffShore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-20-09 08:22 PM
Response to Original message
26. Kicked because it's too late to rec.
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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-21-09 02:31 AM
Response to Reply #26
30. thanks
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