"She's decided against treatment. A reasonable decision under the circumstances."

[Hissyspit]

If you missed it, Keith Olbermann read this entire column on tonight's Countdown written by one of the show's producers in his response to what he saw at the free health clinic held in New Orleans this weekend past after Olbermann called for a fundraising to hold the clinics. Please read it if you missed the show. VIDEO is here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x403011

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33975919/ns/msnbc_tv-countdown_with_keith_olbermann

Health reform's human stories

Countdown producer bears witness to America's health care shortcomings

MSNBC
updated 2 hours, 37 minutes ago

Rich Stockwell
Senior producer, 'Countdown'

New Orleans, La. — - It happened as I watched a 50-something woman walk out, after spending several hours being attended to by volunteer doctors. "She's decided against treatment. A reasonable decision under the circumstances," the doctor tells us as she heads for the next patient. The president of the board of the National Association of Free Health Clinics tells me why: "It's stage-four breast cancer, her body is filled with tumors." I don't know when that woman last saw a doctor. But I do know that if she had health insurance, the odds she would have seen a doctor long ago are much higher, and her chances for an earlier diagnosis and treatment would have been far greater.

After watching for hours as the patients moved through the clinic, it was hard to believe that I was in America.

Eighty-three percent of the patients they see are employed, they are not accepting other government help on a large scale, not "welfare queens" as some would like to have us believe. They are tax-paying, good, upstanding citizens who are trying to make it and give their kids a better life just like you and me.

Ninety percent of the patients who came through Saturday's clinic had two or more diagnoses.

Eighty-two percent had a life-threatening condition such as cardiovascular disease, diabetes, or hypertension. They are victims of a system built with corporate profits at its center, which long ago forgot the moral imperative that should drive us to show compassion to our fellow men and women.

Health reform is not about Democrats or Republicans or who can score political points for the next election, it's about people. It's about fairness and justice in a system that knows none. I'd defy even the most hardened capitalist-loving-conservative to do what I did on Saturday and continue to pretend that the system in place right now is working.

Countdown chose to highlight and raise money for the Association of Free Clinics because we knew the work they do is so vitally important and we wanted to show in real terms how great the need is. We invited several politicians to attend so they could see first hand how critical the situation is. All declined. Some explained that they talk with constituents all the time and know very well of the need for reform.

I have news for them, these people didn't need to speak. Their actions spoke far louder than any words. Having to get a check up and diagnoses at a free clinic because they have no other option tells you all you need to know. There are no words that can accurately describe the quiet desperation on the faces of the patients. Every single one I spoke to, and every one I heard talking with doctors, expressed their gratitude for the event and wished that they were held more often.

- snip -

I spoke with a nurse who was there not as a volunteer, but as a patient. He works two part time jobs at hospitals providing quality care to those who have the one thing he doesn't. Many of his patients share his condition of high blood pressure, but they are fortunate to have insurance to pay for him to care for them while he goes without.

His situation is not uncommon, he has tried for years to get more hours at one of his jobs so he will be eligible for benefits, but it hasn't happened yet. Our system of for-profit health care can't afford to give him and others benefits - might make the stock price drop a penny or two.

The last time the media gathered at that convention center, it was for a natural disaster in which our government was rendered useless due to incompetence.

- snip -

I have changed. I am gratified that just over one thousand people were able to get the minimal amount of care and resources for follow up. But, I am heart-sick for the many more like them who didn't have the time or didn't know that they could get care on Saturday.

- snip -

Politicians continue to tell us we are the most compassionate and caring people, and clearly we have done much good in the world. I left the event overwhelmed by the hard work and dedication of the volunteers, doctors, nurses, other medical professionals, as well as ordinary citizens who came to help. I am left with one overwhelming question: what does it say about us as a nation of people who can live in a country so rich and yet allow this to continue?

MORE AT LINK

[Hepburn]

1. Jesus fucking christ....

...:cry:

[webDude]

18. Jesus got nothin' to do with this, Brother. Just pure greed.

nt

[StreetKnowledge]

69. Quite true. But I don't think Jesus would allow this to stand.

How can you be a good Christian lawmaker and advocate this shit? A free clinic is held and 4 out of 5 people have a serious illness? God Damn.

[BR_Parkway]

29. Apparently they think Jesus wanted them to spend their millions making

sure the gays didn't get married. Helping out the sick? Not on their radar

[liberalhistorian]

64. Jesus didn't ask anyone for an insurance card

before healing them and he sure as shit didn't ask for them to open up their wallets before he healed them, either. And he has nothing but utter contempt and disgust for those who DO do such things.

[BuelahWitch]

106. The title of your post would make a great bumper sticker

or "Jesus never asked for an insurance card or a co-pay"

[niyad]

2. I am still crying as I reread this.

how can this country live with itself-- the richest country in the world, and yet this. and this is only a tiny fraction of those in need.

may the gods have more mercy than our country shows to its own people.

[patrice]

34. We're probably going to need that mercy, 'cause there ARE consequences to this sort of thing.

[nadinbrzezinski]

3. what does it say about us as a nation of people who can live in a country so rich and yet allow this

It speaks of a country that looks inwards and does not care about that thing called a community

It tells me the country is failing.

[Yuugal]

7. They are turning people away at the local food banks here

And yet we have trillions for rich crooks and war. We are not just failing, we are EPIC FAILING. Hell, even Hoover opened up soup kitchens so people wouldn't starve. Obama wont even do that.

[BonnieJW]

57. So true about the food banks.

If you have only $5 to spare, please send it to your local food bank. Also, donate disposable diapers to shelters. Many people can't afford these and being homeless, they can't use cloth diapers.

[tilsammans]

100. Here's a food bank that just suffered an arson fire:

http://www.hopeforthefuture.com/

Now more than ever, they need our support. :patriot:

[SammyWinstonJack]

61. There is always enough money to kill people but never enough to help people.

x( What a great country! :sarcasm:

[misanthrope]

20. It tells me what I've known for a long time, that "selfishness" is a virtue here...

...that "greed" and "hate" are at the core of what has put this nation in its present state.

[Lorien]

80. And everyone from Sean Hannity to President Obama says "America is

not an altruistic Nation". As if that somehow EXCUSES the status quo. You know, it once WAS an "altruistic Nation" ; under Carter, under Kennedy-even under Nixon and Ford. Reagan changed it all, and we'll need real election reform and a reinstatement of the Fairness Doctrine to change it again.

[bluesbassman]

95. And they say that as if it's a good thing. Sure wouldn't want that on my headstone.

"Here lies bluesbassman - He was not an alturistic man". Sorry, that's a FAIL.

[lpbk2713]

4. I saw that

It sounded like the whole event was a real eye opener for a lot of the medical practitioners who were there.
And I'm glad they were able to be there.

[niyad]

6. it isn't the medical personnel who volunteered their time who had their eyes opened--that was why

they volunteered in the first place. unfortunately, the ones who really needed to see this were nowhere in sight.

[niyad]

5. stage 4 breast cancer--my dearest friend, also a DU member, had breast cancer. she also

had a decent health insurance plan (whatever I generally think of kaiser, in her case, treatment was excellent) when her cancer advanced to stage 4--she lived only three months.

I wish I believed in hell, because right now, that is where I wish I could send all those who tell us we have "the greatest health care in the world--take it slow, everything is okay" may they experience what they have sentenced so many of this country's citizens to.

[TeeYiYi]

21. I suspect...

...that hell is on earth. We are living it in various iterations. Beyond that?... Dunno.

TYY

[liberalhistorian]

65. Well, I DO believe in hell and I will gladly join you

in wanting those responsible and those who continue to shut their ears and eyes while enjoying the best care for themselves, paid for by those of us who can't afford it ourselves, sent straight there. In a very special hot spot.

[tilsammans]

101. One reason I do believe in hell is because . . .

. . . there has to be somewhere for those rotten fucks to go to suffer for their dastardly ways. Then again, maybe hell is too good a place for them. :rant:

[Hissyspit]

8. UPDATED with video link.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x403011

[Canuckistanian]

9. Jesus.

I don't know what to say.

[gleaner]

10. This is like seeing the hidden ...

underbelly of a place most of us barely recognize as here. But it is here. We need to provide health care, good health care to everyone. It is a basic right like food and shelter.

I am so frustrated at the way the health care bills and issues have been dealt with that I could literally scream.

We need a good, easy to use, affordable, or subsidized for those without funds single payer system. That is the only thing that is going to do enough. I keep posting that Lyndon Johnson descended on Congress in 1965 and twisted arms until they passed Medicare. It was up and running 11 months after the bill was passed. We could use Medicare as a template to overlay coverage for everyone on and charge on a sliding scale based on ability to pay and making the rich pay their fair share of tax.

This is so frustrating because it would be so simple and it is so logical but the politicians are so busy listening to their own voices that they can't hear anyone else's. Of course they couldn't attend this clinic. That would have been admitting that something needed to be done. Does anyone else have the feeling that is never going to happen?

[Old Codger]

The Repugs

And the false dems that are doing their best to either stop or delete the health care reform we need, not insurance reform, health care reform,are guilty of crimes against society as a whole. Anyone who spouts the drivel they do should be banned from serving as any sort of representative of anything meaningful. The deluded portion of the populace that chooses to believe the propaganda that regularly spews form the likes of blech limpdruggy and Oh really deserve what they get, but they do not have the right to foist this trash off on the rest of us.

[gleaner]

24. I think they ..

have sold their humanity for a pile of crap. They are beneath contempt and I still don't understand why anyone, anyone at all still wants to give air play to their drivel.

[xxqqqzme]

78. I will add my scream to yours.

At times, I too despair because I believe all this current diddling will result in very little, assisting very few. What prompts my need to scream is I see nothing being done that will help those under 60 and even less to those under 40.

Medicare for everyone is for the future of this country and for the economy. It amazes me that more people don't get this. My RW mother sent me some bitter, hate spewing email about 'government' provided healthcare (of course, SHE uses Medicare supplemented w/ union provided benefits).

She has 8 grandchildren - 3 of them have health insurance and one of the 3 uses the clinic at the university she attends. It would NEVER occur to her to look to her own family to see how this monumental failure plays out every day. One of her favorite lame ass reasons for anything she disapproves of, is: "Well, nobody ever gave me anything" (not even going to go there). To which I scream, in my head "That is a fucking shame".

[truedelphi]

88. I've talked about LBJ a lot too recently

And people here claim I am "mis-remembering" his ability to get things done and Bills passed.

Thanks for your post. For a while there, I thought I might have Alzheimer's.

[leftstreet]

11. Insurance For All

wait....weren't we just saying Medicare For All the other day?

[cynatnite]

12. This is so fucking immoral...

I'm just sick to my stomach.

[cynatnite]

13. Lets make this viral. n/t

[debbierlus]

14. kick

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. THis is relevant

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=7030277&mesg_id=7030277

To the history of this crisis

[ancient_nomad]

16. KnR. n/t

[Lugnut]

17. This should never be happening here.

:cry:

[me b zola]

19. K&R

[onestepforward]

22. I remember seeing Mary Landrieu on the news

every single day after hurricane Katrina voicing her concerns for the citizens in her state.

Where was she on Saturday during this free health clinic? And the other Louisiana politicians?

Shameful beyond words.

[imdjh]

45. Mary "well we'd all like free health care wouldn't we?" Landrieu

[Solly Mack]

23. K&R

"what does it say about us as a nation of people who can live in a country so rich and yet allow this to continue?"

How often is that same question asked, in one form or another for one reason or another, about America? And how many people don't even see the obvious? That America isn't the country people want so desperately to believe it to be...

Almost from birth, people are told in so many ways how great America is - how strong and rich and caring and giving - how freedom and liberty and justice loving - that America is the human rights, rule of law good guys....and yet.

To me, it's all connected.

Not so much a series of different problems caused by different things but a common thread attitude connecting it all - about the value of people; to include not only a country's own citizens but people everywhere.

That babies are already born into a benefits package - the multi-tiered level of justice, equality, freedom - even health-care you receive is based on that package.

Sure, there's movement between packages and the upward movement is the golden carrot, the dream, dangled in front of you. But that carrot is tied to a stick and it is the stick that tells you that if you're poor it's because you're lazy/immoral/a drain. If you lack for anything - justice/equality/freedom/healthcare - it's because of your lack and not the system itself.

[noiretextatique]

63. +1

:hi: formerly noiretblu

[Solly Mack]

82. Hey!

Thank you :hi:

It all just makes me angry.

[noiretextatique]

84. it's a disgrace

the white-washed mythology this country keeps feeding itself continues to mask the horrifying realities...of so many things. we are not nearly as "great" as we tell ourselves we are.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

25. Wish they could drag anti-health care politicians to these things

and make them SEE the misery and life threatening conditions.

This includes states with repuke senators and govs like Texas and Oklahoma and other places.

[sarchasm]

26. K&R

... sickening. .. :puke:

[Lochloosa]

27. K/R

[Vidar]

28. K&R.

[Altoid_Cyclist]

30. One positive story that I want to share in this country of screwed up priorities.

This country and its' health care system would be laughable if it wasn't killing so many people.

The town where I live does have one Doctor that makes it possible to still have hope. His story could easily take place anywhere in this country due to the sad state of affairs that the US Health Care System has become. He was named as one of WebMD's 2009 Health Heroes and his story is here.

http://www.webmd.com/healthheroes/2009-honorees#gates

[CrispyQ]

43. Thank you for that!

snip...

His inspiration? "In this day and age, if my mother were living, she'd be one of the uninsured people in my clinic."

[Altoid_Cyclist]

59. You're welcome. Dr. Gates is a true asset to this town.

This is a someone who grew up with absolutely nothing except for a strong caring mother who only had an 8th grade education herself. They got their furniture from dumpsters and considered themselves lucky to receive free cheese to eat. His mother insisted that even with the little that they had, it was their duty to give back as much as they could to the community.

This is a very telling remark about this country:

The clinic emphasizes prevention and tries to prevent misfortunes like that of a 63-year-old woman who died six months ago of a treatable illness for lack of a pill, Gates said.

''She didn't do anything wrong,'' he said. ''She just didn't have health care insurance."

Another story that outlines what he sees as the problem in this state and gives more detail of his plans.
Sorry, it does involve Repukes in it, but at least he's trying.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/08265/913872-454.stm

[fasttense]

31. This reminds me of a story of a village called Melas

It was a very happy small town, more like a village, where everyone was healthy and all things good. Except in one home, in a smelly, dark and dirty closet, a starving boy sat in his own feces, kicked, abused and suffering. A visitor to the town found the boy and asked why. The villagers said they all believed that their prosperity was due to the suffering of this helpless boy. So they intentionally starved, abused and made him suffer so the rest of them could be very happy.

And that is what America has become today. Only the suffering, abused and starving boy has become our poor, our laborers, our uninsured. On the surface our country looks so good, so very happy. But in the dark corners are our unlucky, those born into poverty, the unemployed youth, the uninsured. They all suffer so capitalism may reign supreme, so that "free" markets can be guided by an invisible hand, so that CEOs and the lucky top 300 American families can be very, very happy.

America has become the village of Melas.

"A society is Not judged on how it keeps their kings, but on how they treat the weakest among them."

[Delphinus]

124. That is a eye-opening story.

I can see the correlation between that story and who/what America is today.

Thank you.

[DU GrovelBot]

32. ## PLEASE DONATE TO DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND! ##

This week is our fourth quarter 2009 fund drive. Democratic Underground is
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[patrice]

33. And some people wonder why others might be just a little skeptical about Amerika. nt

[Bluenorthwest]

35. But Obama sez Big Insurance "deserves their profits"

And to get what they deserve, others must pay. The end. Pragmatic. Art of possible. Profit over people. Hallelujah, God is in the mix, and God hates single payer, because it fails to discriminate against minorities Obama does not like. So no single payer, it might help a lesbian, and God forbid.
Death before equality, the Obama motto.

[SammyWinstonJack]

62. +1

:thumbsup:

[cark]

36. Emotionalism Does Not Make Good Policy

This is a truly a sad story, but we should not pass reform or overhaul our system based on emotional stories and anecdotes. You hear equally disturbing incidents from countries like Canada and England that have universal coverage. I saw a story the other day from a woman in Canada that would be dead right if she didn't fly to the US and have a heart procedure done. We need to make sure we pass something good, not just some piece of crap just do say we did 'something'. What they are proposing now is a pile of 'something'.

[DrZeeLit]

38. Are you sure you're posting in the right Forum? I don't think you GET what we are about here.

We most certainly DO need to reform our system based on emotional stories and anecdotes.
These are OUR PEOPLE, OUR FELLOW HUMAN BEINGS.

And if you drank the kool aid about the systems in Canada and England, you are soooooo NOT supposed to be posting in the DEMOCRATIC Underground.
Those stories have been basically debunked as pure propaganda of the Right.

Soooo... you might want to think about that.

[cark]

39. We don't need reform - We need GOOD reform n/t

[imdjh]

40. "We"? Are you sure?

I was listening to the Sunday Forum on WMNF (progressive listener supported radio) and the caller was angry that President Obama and the Congress were spending their time on "healthcare reform and a tweak of the hate crimes law" instead of ending the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan immediately and bringing the troops home. He actually said that he didn't care what happened after the troops had left, that he simply wanted the US to get out and stop fighting wars.

[Doctor_J]

44. Please don't post Fox "News" talking points

I saw a story the other day from a woman in Canada that would be dead right if she didn't fly to the US and have a heart procedure done.

I am sure there are lots of sites where this sort of crap would be applauded, so please take it to one of them. we have the worst system in the industrialized world - far worse than those you denigrate in your ridiculous post. this story is not an anecdote, it is full of facts about people dying because insurance companies are murderers. and I am sorry if it offends your sensibilities that the truth about our health care system strikes an emotional chord.

[cark]

51. I'm not arguing that we don't need reform

or that our system isn't horribly broken. Calling ours the worst system is going a little far when polls suggest a majority of Americans are happy with their own healthcare, it is just way too expensive. We have the MOST advanced healthcare systems and technology in the industrialized world (if you can afford it). If you want to get in a pissing match, I could post stories from Canada filled with facts about how their system lets some people down. Is the Government of Canada murdering its citizens then like our insurance companies?

The point of my first post was that we need to get it right, don't let emotion cloud our judgement and don't settle for some piece of crap (like the bills currently being debated) in the name of just doing 'something'. They don't reduce costs, they don't insure universal coverage, they don't reform the system and it could potentially send people to jail. No thanks. So what am I missing?

[Thornleylv]

47. What a shame

To say that a women facing a death sentence is an anecdote is not sane!
Also 44,000 people will not die for lack of insurance this year in Canada, England, Sweden or any other civilized nation except the good old U.S of A.

:kick:

[snagglepuss]

49. I'm Canadian and what you just said about Canadian health care is crap.

If a health issue is dire, intervention is immediate. Wait times for elective surgery only. Last year my brother was diagnosed with a brain tumor in his cerebellum. Because it was urgent there were no wait times for the Cscans or MRI. Six days after the diagnoses the tumor was out and he is completely healed. Had my brother opted for a public war (4 beds in a room) he would have paid nothing but as he opted for semi-private he paid 240.00/night.


My sister had a sudden onset of very painful knee, totally unable to walk. Surgery was deemed necessary. She saw the specialist in the first week of Nov, ans was scheduled for surgery Dec 7, however given the severity of the pain surgery moved up a month so she had surgery 5 days after the diagnosis.


My 82 yr old mom in 2005 had colon cancer, she was slated for surgery 6 weeks after the diagnosis. Having reviewed her case doctors moved it up and she was in the hospital the following Monday. She is alive and well.

I could go on. Canadians love our health care and polls continue to reflect it. Americans who fall for lies spread by for profit health care are suckers.

[Doctor_J]

54. Yes, Fox News addicts/proagandists come here every so often

Thanks for shouting down this idiot.

[snagglepuss]

103. Naxos Poll from summer: overwhelming support (86.2%) for strengthening public health care

"A new poll conducted by Nanos Research points to overwhelming support (86.2%) for strengthening public health care rather than expanding for-profit services. “With more than eight in ten Canadians supporting public solutions to make public healthcare stronger, there is compelling evidence that Canadians across all demographics would prefer a public over a for-profit healthcare system,” said Nik Nanos, President of Nanos Research. Nanos Research was commissioned on behalf of the Canadian Health Coalition (CHC) to conduct a random telephone survey of 1001 Canadians between April 25th and May 3rd. The margin of accuracy for a sample of 1,001 is ±3.1 percentage points, 19 times out of 20.

As well, the federal government just released its report: Healthy Canadians – A Federal Report on Comparable Health Indicators 2008. Its findings identically mirrored the CHC polling results. In that report, a leading indicator pointed to the fact that, “Most Canadians (85.2%) aged 15 years and older reported being ‘very satisfied’ or ‘somewhat satisfied’ with the way overall health care services were provided, unchanged from 2005.”




http://medicare.ca/new-poll-shows-overwhelming-support-for-public-health-care

[Nederland]

85. The Canadian Government disagrees with you

The Canadian government has admitted that wait times are a problem and has committed over 4.5 billion dollars to solve the problem. Are they wrong? Is there actually no problem and that money being wasted? Please. The only thing more annoying that RW Republicans claiming that the US has the best health care system in the world is Canadians who say their system is flawless. No system is perfect, and the assertion that in Canada wait times are only for elective surgery is flat out false.

http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/hcs-sss/qual/acces/wait-attente/index-eng.php

[snagglepuss]

102. Baloney . I've just gone through Wait Times. BC site states it succintly

"In British Columbia, more than 400,000 hospital-based surgeries and treatments are performed each year. If you need surgery or treatment that is not an emergency, you will be placed on a wait list. An individual who needs emergency surgery does not go on a waitlist; they receive treatment without delay."

[Nederland]

109. You didn't answer the question

If wait times aren't a problem in Canada, why did the Canadian government allocate 4.5 billion dollars to reduce the problem?

[snagglepuss]

110. First show me a link to that statement. The general answer is that

there are wait times for elective surgery and there are problems getting doctors to work in rural areas but that is because doctors in Canada are not under the thumb of govt (and I might add the US has this problem as well). As stated in my other post 82.6% of Canadians are happy with public health care. Such overwhelming support would not be there is people were unable to get timely care.

[Nederland]

111. I already did

It's in my very first post on this thread, post #85.

The link points to the Health Canada, the governments own website. The very first paragraph reads:

The 10 Year Plan outlines strategic investments directed toward reducing waiting times for access to care, especially for cancer, heart, diagnostic imaging, joint replacement and sight restoration services. To support the reduction of wait times, the Federal Government committed to investing $4.5 billion over the next six years, beginning in 2004-05, in the Wait Times Reduction Fund.

[snagglepuss]

112. That statement simply indicates money is being spent improving care.

The situation stands that wait imes are in place for elective surgery, if a situation is dire care is timely.

[Nederland]

113. Yes, improving care by reducing waiting times (nt)

[snagglepuss]

114. Wait times for elective surgery. Enjoy your private health care, I hope you

sleep well at nights knowing that millions of your fellow citizens don't have access to your superior care.

[Nederland]

115. Can you read?

Or are you just in denial?

The 10 Year Plan outlines strategic investments directed toward reducing waiting times for access to care, especially for cancer, heart, diagnostic imaging, joint replacement and sight restoration services. To support the reduction of wait times, the Federal Government committed to investing $4.5 billion over the next six years, beginning in 2004-05, in the Wait Times Reduction Fund.

Do "cancer, heart, diagnostic imaging, joint replacement and sight restoration services" sound elective to you?

[snagglepuss]

116. Can you read and can you understand that the current govt are neocons who want to

privatise health care. They constantly allude to deficiencies in the system and talk about privatising care to imn

"In British Columbia, more than 400,000 hospital-based surgeries and treatments are performed each year. If you need surgery or treatment that is not an emergency, you will be placed on a wait list. An individual who needs emergency surgery does not go on a waitlist; they receive treatment without delay."

[Nederland]

117. Are you ignorant of your own country's history?

Stephen Harper and the Conservative Party took power in February 2006. The 10-Year Plan to Strengthen Health Care was an accord first reach in September 2004 when Paul Martin, a member of the Liberal Party, was Prime Minister. The accord originally called for a $5.5-billion Wait Times Reduction Fund, which was reduced in 2007 by the Conservatives to $4.5-billion. This shows that the Liberal Party actually viewed the problem as more serious than the Conservative Party. You can read more on the history of the Wait Times Reduction Fund here:

http://www.parl.gc.ca/information/library/PRBpubs/prb0582-e.htm

I suggest you read it because obviously you are ignorant on the subject.

[snagglepuss]

119. Paul Martin, Bay Street's darling election campaign. Mr I'll protect health care.

The basic fact is that Martin reduced transfers to provinces by 40%,which severly impacted health care. He had massive budget surpluses which he spent on tax cuts and he also cut funding for social programs, getting rid of over $7 billion in health care funding.

Its obvious you're not losing sleep due to no health coverage. I think the American system sucks. How anyone in the US who has insurance can live with themselves knowing millions don't have health care sickens me. That anyone on DU propagates lies about Canadian health care is beyond the pale. Canadians are damned proud of our health care. Can it be improved of course it can but no one is dying in Canada due to lack of care. You frankly have a lot of audacity trying to find fault with a system Canadians across the board value. I suggest your time would be better spent looking after fellow Americans.


http://www.hintonparklander.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?archive=true&e=1840332

[Nederland]

120. I didn't read anything about wait times in that post

Are you conceding the point?

BTW, I also think the American System sucks, and I believe the Canadian system is better. Better, not perfect. As I said in my original post:

The only thing more annoying that RW Republicans claiming that the US has the best health care system in the world is Canadians who say their system is flawless. No system is perfect, and the assertion that in Canada wait times are only for elective surgery is flat out false.

I still stand by everything in that original comment.

[snagglepuss]

122. I don't know how many times I can state the fact that someone in need of

urgent care is not on a wait list. As I stated, my brother's tumor in his cerebellum was removed within a week of diagnosis by an Eye, Nose and Ear specialist. The day after he saw the specialist he got an MRI because the situation was urgent - he was blacking out and couldn't walk. The next day he saw the neuro-surgeon and the MRI was sent by cab to his office so he had the MRI when my brother was there. Within days the tumor was out. Had my brother been deemed to have an inner ear issue he most likely would have waited for the MRI.

And like I said about my Mom. After a colonoscopy detected a tumor, she was slated for surgery in 6 weeks. However without any input from her, doctors deemed that surgery should be done sooner than later do she got admitted on the Monday of the following week.

Something I didn't know was brought to my attention when I was talking to a med student in my building the other day. He was saying that often wait times are due to there not being enough specialists but he said that responsibility lies at the feet of the specialists themselves who determine how many students are accepted in each year into a particular specialty. He said doctors don't want to flood the market with specialists, for instance ophthalmologists decide the number of grad students it lets in each year and they deliberately low-ball the number to insure the market isn't flooded with ophthalmologists.

[Nederland]

123. I don't know how many times I have to tell you you are wrong

Some people die waiting for care in Canada. Maybe not a lot of people, but it does happen. That's not what I say, that's what doctors and nurses in Canada say.

Approximately one-half of physicians (48%) say that their patients have always, almost always or frequently had to wait for critical procedures such as
chemotherapy or radiation therapy. -- Page 7

Twelve percent of physicians and four percent of nurses say that some patients passed away as a result of waiting longer than they thought was reasonable for access to the required health care services. -- Page 8

Those are direct quotes taken from a survey commissioned by the Canadian Medical Association. You can read the whole thing for yourself here:

http://www.cma.ca/multimedia/staticcontent/CMA/Content_Images/Inside_cma/Better-Access/Ipsos-Polling.pdf.

Who am I supposed to believe? You, who has a couple examples of what happened to your friends and relatives; or doctors and nurses who actually work in health care and have a sample size in the thousands? When 12% of doctors surveyed say they've seen someone die waiting for care, I'm going to believe them, not you.

[OnlinePoker]

93. Not the case with my brother

While I'm happy that your brother is well, this has not been the experience with my brother. Living in Surrey (BC) for several years, he was unable to find a family doctor and relied on walk-in clinics or emergency rooms for health needs. In January of this year he was complaining to me of persistent diarrhea and gastro pain. I asked him if he'd seen anyone and he told me the clinic had told him to take Imodium and if the issue persisted, to come in. After 3 return visits with the same result, he was finally scheduled for a colonoscopy on October 13th. The worst was confirmed and he has colon cancer. The clinic where he was scoped told him the walk-in clinic would book him for an MRI to determine the stage of the cancer. After a week of not hearing from them, he called and they said they hadn't got the info from the other clinic and when they would call when they did. After 10 days, he was finally booked in for his MRI...on 4 December. No treatment can begin until the MRI confirms the stage of cancer. I offered to pay the $2700 for an MRI at a private facility (illegal under the Canada Health Act, but still operating), but my brother said his clinic wouldn't accept the results because they weren't obtained through the "public" health system. I'm sorry, but this is crap. If a person is willing to pay the money from his own pocket, the facility and equipment is there, and it takes him out of the queue from the provincial system (in Victoria this year, MRI's are capped at 3000 lower than last year due to budget restrains) there should be no issue. 8 weeks can literally be a lifetime in a cancer patient, but this is what my brother has to deal with. Given the length of time he has shown symptoms, I am not optimistic the cancer is still in the more treatable first or second stage. We'll find out two weeks from now.

[JanMichael]

121. I am a SP proponant 100%. We must also cover dental care too.

That's a big part of the free health clinic mentioned. They pull an enormous number of teeth that would have probably been ok if we didn't have such a greedy ADA.

[polly7]

60. I call bull. nt.

[superduperfarleft]

67. What they are proposing now has absolutely zero relation to the systems

in Canada and the UK, and both Canada's and UK's systems aren't even remotely comparable. Sounds like you need to learn what you're talking about before you start talking.

As far as your unsourced anecdote, are you talking about this woman? http://www.webcitation.org/query?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.factcheck.org%2F2009%2F08%2Fdying-on-a-wait-list%2F&date=2009-09-23

Because she's a liar and a fraud, as are the people that are attempting to scare Americans with the kind of misinformation that you're spouting.

[cark]

83. Never seen that ad.

What misinformation am I spouting? I saw an interview with a lady from Canada on one of those dateline type shows. Could be bunk but sounded ligit to me. So nobody ever falls throught he cracks if government is running HC, I find that hard to believe. I also am well aware that what is being proposed is nothing like Canada or the UK, I'm just saying government isn't perfect. The overall point I was making is that what is being currently proposed is garbage and we shouldn't be supporting based on emotional.

[superduperfarleft]

91. Discussing Canada's or the UK's systems when nothing even remotely similar is "on the table"

is a red herring.

And you'll find many here that say that the current HCR bill leaves a lot to be desired.

What I objected to was you trying to imply that there's some systemic problem with Canada's healthcare system based on an unsourced anecdote. Of course people will fall through the cracks, and yes, there is an issue with wait times in Canada, but implying that there is some widespread problem in Canada with people dying in the emergency rooms because of wait times is complete misinformation.

Even if I want to continue to belabor an irrelevant point, the wait times in Canada are not at all a function of their single-payer system, it's simply a low supply of doctors. You could have a purely privatized system with the exact same problems as long as the supply of patients exceeds the supply of doctors. In fact, our own country is having the same problem when it comes to primary care physicians. Wait times have next to nothing to do with who pays the bills (private companies vs. government).

[Spazito]

70. That "story" about the woman from Canada is bullshit...

Her purpose in going to the U.S. was to promote privatization of health care in both Canada and the U.S. The AD you saw was paid for by groups AGAINST health care reform of any kind. In Canada, this woman was also the front for a Canadian group who want to kill universal health care, they and the woman to whom you refer are SCUM.

[wolfgangmo]

77. Make your point without using debunked stories then.

That "woman" flew to the US for an elective procedure that was not life threatening. This has been verified by her doctors on both sides of the border.

She decided that she was going to "just die" if she didn't get her elective surgery and she didn't want to wait until the Canadian system would have paid for it (i.e. after that surgeon had helped citizens with urgent or critical needs). And so she flew her self centered ass down to the US and whined to Faux Skews. If that bitch has any medical problems they are mental.

Speaking of which, I agree that anecdotes have nothing to do with policy generally but as an owner of a medical clinic I can tell you that anecdotes are also the stories of people. People are not statistics. And so when you deal with people you deal with their stories. And let me be very clear on this - medical care deals with people.

You might be for a good medical care system being started in the US, but you have to check your stories out before using them as examples. Perhaps after you have been here longer.

Welcome to DU.

[lildreamer316]

99. Wish I could rec this reply.

Very well done, and thank you for your service to humans with the medical clinic.

[Lorien]

81. Put down the Kool-aid kid. This is reality, not "emotionalism"

I suppose in your mind a body filled with tumors is just a case of "emotionalism" when it isn't YOUR body. I'll admit that the current health insurance reform (because it isn't health CARE reform) is crap, but what's happening around America IS very real and DOES require immediate action. Single payer universal coverage would be the best policy (and no, the Brits and Canadians DON'T have these kinds of stories. Anyone who suggested changing THEIR system would be run out of the country), a robust public option-medicare for all-would be an acceptable second best.

[lildreamer316]

97. The 'story' you saw was an ad paid for by insurance interests.

I know, I've seen the same 'story'.
There are many Candainas here on DU; several have posted their stories of the good and bad of their systems; as well as a few UK dwellers. That's just as trustworthy as the 'story' you saw, and probably much more so.

[Soylent Brice]

37. mission accomplished.

thanks *.

[Thornleylv]

41. Moral Imperitive

            

Why I am so passionate about health care reform? 

I was lucky to be able to pay for a doctor visit the other day, and before his examination, I asked him what he thought of universal health care. The doctor looked me in the eye and asked, "Why should we have to pay for those without insurance? If a person is hungry should we have to pay for their food also?"

Well really that is the basic question isn't it? Why should we have to pay for others who don't have what we have?

When I thought about it I could not help remembering how we all felt after 9-11 after 2,976 people were killed. We all felt angry! How could we let this happen? Somthing had to be done! It was devastating. We felt the same tragic loss when 186 Americans were killed in the Oklahoma City bombing! Remember feeling that we were proud to be American and that we wanted our government to do what ever it had to in order to protect our fellow Americans?

 How could we feel so bad about our fellow American being taken from us then, and not feel somthing for the 45,000 people who die every year for lack of insurance? 

Even if you think that everyone should "pull their own weight", what about those Americans who work every day, pay their bills and have insurance, but are droped for a pre condition? What about the fireman who went into a falling building at the World Trade Center and was exposed to toxic fumes, but now cannot get insurance because their job is too "high risk". There are firemen who are dying every day because they ran into a building that was coming down to save others. Now their relatives are left with bills they cannot afford. 

The reason we employ firemen to run into buildings that are burning and falling down to save peoples lives is the same justification to provide every American with the access to quality health care, it saves lives.  

The constitution gives us certain inalienable rights. Among those are the right to LIFE, LIBERTY and THE PERSUTE OF HAPPINESS. We chose to form a government of the people so that it would protect those rights for the comon good of the people.

Every other civilized nation in the world cares for their people, execept for the USA. WE ARE OUR BROTHERS KEEPERS. Can we really just stand bye and say " well I have got mine and so I don't care if you don't have yours".

I believe in democracy and capitalism, but along with it comes certian responsibilities. 

I just can't help thinking if JESUS were alive today would that doctor be able to look him I the eye and ask " why should we pay for the uninsured, should we feed the hungry also?"

YES, Yes we should, if not we have our fellow countrymens blood on our hands. That is why I am so passionate about health care reform. 

Matthew 12:15
"But when Jesus knew it, he withdrew himself from thence: and great multitudes followed him, and he healed them all;"

[Delphinus]

125. Boy, that was pretty telling,

the response from the doctor.

And I love your question about why we can be so angry about 2,976 people dying in the World Trade Centers but not about the (at least) 45,000 per year due to lack of health insurance (no words about health care - and there's a HUGE difference between insurance and care).

[democrank]

42. We don`t need to debate a 1,000+ page health care bill.

We need to join other civilized nations that see health care as a right, not a privilege only for those who can afford it.

[Doctor_J]

46. I am sure Big Media will cover this right after the Palin Campaign Tour

or not.

[CrispyQ]

48. Jared Bernstein, VP Biden's economic adviser, stated in one of his books,

"In a just society, there is no limit to how high one can climb, but there is a limit to how far one can fall."

We have a moral obligation to provide the basics for our fellow citizens. Three hots & a cot, health care, child care, education.

[lunatica]

50. Politicians don't care. They get money from Health insurance companies, not

those dirty poor people who don't even bother to vote. Crap, do you want politicians to turn their back on their benefactors? On the people who put them in office?!

Fuck the poor, and since they're doing that, well, fuck the middle class with their insignificant donations. The real bosses are those with the money!

:sarcasm:

[Patiod]

52. WWJD

I throw this out at every "Christian" I know who is against health care reform. I think it's the best possible argument for this group: simple and upsetting to their way of thinking.

I've yet to get anything but a weasel answer.

This provides even further ammunition.

[Doctor_J]

53. However, Congressman Boner doesn't want to infringe on these peoples' freedom

by providing them with health care. Of course he has free health care, and enough insurance lobby money to get elected repeated to the job that he hates so much.

Pitchforks, torches will end this debacle. Nothing else.

[NikolaC]

55. K&R

It's criminal what has been happening. The media doesn't care because they have Palin, the Lohans, John & Kate and President Obama's bowing to worry about. The politicians don't care because they don't have to worry about getting good healthcare without being bankrupted since they have really good health insurance which is paid for with tax dollars. What could have fixed this problem and, eventually, the jobs problem was single payer. Too bad that was never even allowed to be an option. Some of those politicians probably do not want to come face to face with the human pain and suffering that is occurring while they dither and play games about what they need to do to resolve the problem. They don't want to piss off the insurance companies, big pharma and their lobbyists.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

56. ....

We have all become... "victims of a system built with corporate profits at its center, which long ago forgot the moral imperative that should drive us to show compassion to our fellow men and women."


this just makes me cry. It's so unjust, so wrong, I want to SCREAM. I'm thankful the Obama administration targeted the situation. All the horrifying ugliness is coming to light now, as scary as it is to see it -- and the corporate scum are fighting against change tooth and nail.

[Javaman]

58. this is the repuke health plan. keep them poor so they can't get health care

and let them die.

have our labor force be illegals so corps can grossly under pay them and not give them benefits...

thus keeping them poor so the die because of lack of healthcare...

have our labor force be illegals so corps can grossly under pay them and not give them benefits...

etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc...

to the repukes, anyone that is not white and male is disposable.

[Lucy Goosey]

66. That nurse should move to Canada.

Seriously, we need nurses (I work for Health Canada, the federal health department), and since he's already an RN in the US, the process for becoming registered here is a breeze - it's just a formality. And it goes without saying that he wouldn't have to worry about finding a job that offered health coverage.

[tblue]

68. I wonder if it's possible to track him down.

It would be worth it for him to hear this. Bless his heart, and yours!!!

[happyslug]

72. The article didn't say the nurse was an RN, just a "Nurse" which can be an LPN or even NA.

Licensed Practical Nurses (LPN) and Nurses Aide (NA) are often referred to as "Nurses" in the US, thus we may be talking of a LPN or even a NA. I do NOT know and the article does NOT say (And I have faith in reporters, who tend to call all three professions "Nurses").

[Lucy Goosey]

108. The article didn't say so, but he was actually interviewed on Olbermann, and he specified "RN"

At any rate, Canada needs LPNs and NAs, too.

[KamaAina]

71. This is what happens when you let Charity Hospital sit empty for four years

the big public hospital in New Orleans was damaged in the Federal Flood. Unlike, say, the Superdome (only a few blocks away), it has not been rebuilt. See, Booby Jindal wants a shiny, new hospital complex to be shared by LSU and the VA on a nearby site (much of which happens to be occupied by a low-income, largely African American neighborhood). And in the meantime? This is the result. :cry:

edit: spelling

[pitohui]

76. also while that's part of it, charity didn't help people stay in their houses

"charity" was a misnomer, they were only a charity to the poorest of the poor, they had a sliding scale and v. unreasonable ideas abt what some people could pay

one guy i knew was pretty much hounded to his death by charity because they somehow decided he could pay, this guy had nothing and no chance of ever getting anything, but didn't stop them from hounding him for 20 years anyway, he died in his mid 50s w. absolutely nada

to a certain extent you used charity at your own risk, it was crabs in a bucket, if you ever got anything and they found out about it, you were going to get dragged right down again

we def. need a new public hospital but we need a way better system, don't bother to save my life if it's just going to be so i can be a slave in poverty forever w. every extra dollar going back to the hospital, there's no point in living like that

[Uncle Joe]

73. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, Hissyspit.:thumbsup:

[AllyCat]

74. Oh. My. God. This is so dead-on. The cons don't want this either. We have

to show them this is our common ground.

[pitohui]

75. health insurance in louisiana is simply too expensive for real people to buy

i went w.out for 15 years as i've said before

after a certain age you simply can't buy it at any affordable price, even if you are healthy and have no pre-existing conditions, even if you're a healthy non-smoker of the proper weight -- -- it's just too expensive and doesn't cover anything -- when i inquired about buying catastrophic insurance i was told, well, it doesn't cover anything, so it's just kind of a scam

a friend bought it anyway, when he was tested for cancer, the insurance co. claimed it was already cxl'd, they paid nothing (so my insurance agent at least told me the truth of it)

if you want to have insurance, you have to be in one of the few jobs that include health insurance coverage or you have to marry someone who has one of those few jobs

charity hospital system is gone, washed away by katrina

i know people in their 60s -- with pre existing! -- who were quoted better prices (in other states) for health insurance than i could get in my 40s w/out those conditions

[Doctor_J]

79. Did they refund the premiums he'd paid?

Since they took his money then didn't pay, I would think his premiums would be refundable.

[pitohui]

89. no they didn't, i assume his lawyer is incompetent

i'm limited in what i can say, his lawyer is a family member, but the atty in question seems pretty useless if you ask me (has been fired from at least two law firms in addition to seemingly doing nothing at all in this case)

i think by this time, having not gotten a dime back from the insurer or seen any action from his lawyer, he should file a complaint with the state insurance commissioner

i'm baffled as to why you wouldn't get a refund of premium in this situation...

[Doctor_J]

104. Yes. either he paid for insurance or he didn't

I know that in Illinois, the life insurance works something like this:

Suppose you lie on your application and say you don't smoke when you actually do. The insurance comanpy then sets your rates at say, $250 instead of $750. When you finally succumb, if they found out that you smoked, they can't just not pay at all, though. What they can do to is to pro-rate the premiums to a smoker's rate. So whatever benefit $250 would have bought at the smoker's rate, is what they pay out.

It sounds like your friend should be entitled to some pro-rata benefits like what I just described, ot a full refund of the money he did put in if his "insurer" doesn't want to pay at all.

[road2000]

86. Kick. Sickening, but must be read.

[zogtheobvious]

87. To them, it IS a working system.

"I'd defy even the most hardened capitalist-loving-conservative to do what I did on Saturday and continue to pretend that the system in place right now is working."

These people can't AFFORD health care. Health care is going to the wealthy and moderately well off... those who can afford it. Those who can't will suffer and die like the stage 4 cancer sufferer in this article.

To the hardened capitalist-loving-conservative, this IS a system that works exactly to their specifications. Money goes in, a service goes out. The human factor is not considered because it is not profitable, and is therefore irrelevant. To them, it is natural selection at work- one of the few times a conservative will admit to Darwinian beliefs.

To them, it IS a working system.

[Vinca]

90. Olbermann's segment and his producer's piece were heartbreaking.

Not surprising Mary Landrieu couldn't make time to attend the event . . . or even appear on Countdown. She should be ashamed.

[Nikki Stone1]

92. Now they want to reduce the number of mammograms women get

SIgh

[glitch]

94. Not so sure that is such a bad thing, as long as the screening is done.

Mammograms suck, but handheld MRIs are less invasive. less expensive with less radiation and more acute resolution. When I asked my MRI tech why they didn't just do MRIs in the first place (mammogram found a lump which required further inspection with a hand held MRI) she told me the mammogram equipment is so expensive they have to keep using them until they are paid off.

Despite the risks that are lessened with the new technology. Think about that. We are fucking expendable lab rats to these people.

[Doctor_J]

105. Correct. My wife is a HC provider who agrees that yearly are unneccessary

She's unapologetic liberal Dem who specializes in women's health issues and is certain that mamo's are overdone.

[glitch]

107. I do not include your wife in the "these people" category. God bless the true healers! nt

[marew]

96. How horribly sad!

How do some people sleep at night!

[Shell Beau]

98. That makes me want to throw up.

Shame shame shame

[Bobbie Jo]

118. Keep this Kicked!

:kick:

[Robyn66]

126. The story about the 50 something woman with stage 4 breast cancer only illustrates the point I have

been irritating some on this site with for a few days now ;) I bet if she had a mammogram in her early 40's she would be cancer free now. Maybe not, but she would have one hell of a better chance than she does now! But then perhaps she is only like me, one of the 1 in 1900 who are the acceptable losses.

Thank God for these clinics. I think they should grab these legislators by force to them so they can see whether they like it or not the reality of the situation.

Robyn