I'm filling out a job application, when I come across this:

[MindPilot]

"Professional references can include former managers, supervisors, Human Resources, professors, or clergy. They cannot be relatives or friends."

As a rule, I never give out my references' contact information until I'm actually dealing with a real live HR rep.

I'm going to finish filling it out: but I'm going into "fuck it" mode; at best this one is going to be a practice interview. I'm not sure I want to work for a place where they list "clergy" as an acceptable reference but eliminate friends which by extension eliminates my professional peers as being able to provide an honest assessment of my abilities.

On edit: less than two minutes and I have an unrec!? What the hell?

[efhmc]

1. Can understand eliminating any nonprofession contacts but

then your clergy should not be on the list either. Never seen that before.

[conscious evolution]

35. Sounds like a way to weed out

people who follow the 'wrong' religion.

[politicoguru]

47. discrimination

I agree, that's a little fishy.

[Prism]

2. Potential information

I've bumped up against this too in my job search and asked an HR person about it. She told me it's put in if you want to reference involvement in the community, i.e. volunteerism, and it would be to list work or organizing you did to that extent. I asked if my work with local shelters that involved professional skills relevant to the job I was applying for would similarly be permissible, and she said it would be synonymous.

Not saying that's the reason in your case. That was just the answer I received.

[tblue]

3. Just list your friends as professional references.

List their name and their place of employment. If you can describe having any professional connection to them, it's legit enough. Just make sure your friends know what you said about them before they get a call from your potential employer. Don't give up if you want this job. Good luck!

[MindPilot]

4. Not sure of the laws in other states but here in CA

HR reps and managers are really restricted in what they can say about a former employee. For HR--and AFAIK, supervisors--it's pretty much limited to confirming the date of hire and the date of termination.

So really the only people who can legally give you a good reference are your peers.

[blues90]

7. Yes that's true

Your old employer has guide lines as to what info they can give out . It's very limited.

I had trouble because the people I worked for at older jobs no longer work there. They ask you to go back 10 years , the last job was 12 years long.

When I did work there as a manager we were told any calls on new prospective employees were all to be refered to HR.

[tonysam]

10. Unless it is school districts

Supposedly they want references--which they check, including previous principals--in order to keep people out who are dangerous to students, but actually the way the questions are worded on the application, you have to reveal terminations although few teachers are dismissed for true misconduct. The school district and licensure application questions are typically asked in yes or no formats such as checking a box; you can't weasel-word around it as on a standard employment application. This is a way for school districts to totally blackball teachers wrongfully dismissed. You lie on the application and you risk having your license suspended or denied (they call it perjury).

You are basically deprived of ever working in your chosen field ever again, and all because a district will spend thousands if not hundreds of thousands of taxpayer dollars to support an asshole or negligent principal.

[Kajsa]

39. That is true, tonysam.

And as a school district employee,
it is very intimidating.

One bad reference, and you never work as
a teacher again.

The crappy Admin.?
He/She walks, earning the big bucks in education.

( you know, the bucks we need for TEXTBOOKS)

:(

[tyedyeto]

25. And "Is the person eligible for re-hire." n/t

[Rockholm]

42. That's how it is in MA.

[gorfle]

15. Right on.

You gotta play the game if you want to be in the game.

[lunatica]

5. This is one of those rules where they kill the tree because of one bad apple

Some idiots think they can list their high school buddies so the mindless corporations punish everyone. Same as always. List your peers if they aren't the aforementioned high school buddies.

[sharp_stick]

6. If your friends can be listed as professional

feel free to put them down. What most companies mean by putting this down is that they don't want to hear from your drinking buddies about how great a guy you are. Peers and associated that you have worked with are fine references, especially if some of them are one up on you in the management chain.

[havocmom]

8. Have your professional friends become clerics, then they can be references

http://www.amfellow.org/

A smart employer would see that as resourceful. Sadly, one must wonder about employers who would accept clerics and deny friends as references.

:evilgrin:

I am an ordained cleric. Who would you like me to tell what an asset you would be? ;)

[tblue]

9. What can't you get on the Internet?

[havocmom]

11. if you are willing to spend some time searching, you can probably find about anything

:D
Edited to add another site for ordination

http://www.ulc.net/index.php?page=ordain

[havocmom]

12. Don't know that I would use their online confession page though!

Is the confessional secure if the Patriot Act is still in place and there are so many spy-ware & hacking problems? :shrug:

[ddeclue]

16. DUZY ALERT!

:rofl:

[Vincardog]

17. I too am an ordained cleric. Why not get whom ever you would like to be your reference to get

ordained too?

[Ignis]

23. "My clergy reference is Anton LaVey."

Somehow, I have a feeling that's not what they were seeking. ;)

[havocmom]

24. Id DOES seem likely they have a narrow understanding of the can of worms 'cleric' can be

My pastoral duties run more along the line of picking herbs in the wilderness, playing soothing music, and trying to get wingers to calm the fuck down, but LaVey had his calling too. :rofl:

[Hekate]

27. !!!

:rofl:

[Ignis]

30. That's about my own bent, but ...

I do really enjoy bringing Anton LaVey's House of Loons into the picture whenever someone drones on about the merits of prayer in schools. ;)

[gratuitous]

13. What a horrible world you live in

My goodness, the courage it must require just to get out of bed in the morning, let alone go applying for a job. Nothing less than heroic, says I. If any thread could be recommended a thousand times, this would be the one! Can you imagine applying to work, let alone working for a company that would accept a person's pastor as a reference? Some lame-ass goody two shoes who volunteers his or her off hours to a church so much that that person's pastor might have an informed opinion on their work habits or character? How could you even type this post without vomiting? A true patriot of the homeland subjected to such a scourge; recommend, Recommend, RECOMMEND!!

[Leftist Agitator]

34. (Your signature here)

And yet it does so very, very much.

[Quantess]

14. Tempest in a teacup.

If your relationship with a friend consists of going to keg parties and not much else, then of course you wouldn't use them as a reference, no matter what they say about your character.

If your relationship with a friend is based largely around some professional context, then you use them as a reference and call them a "professional colleague" or something. If your relative happens to be a co-worker or a professional contact, then maybe you can get away with using the relative as a reference.

[Kansas Wyatt]

18. If you don't really care about getting the job, just write...

'Classified by the U.S. Government'

If they question you, just say, I cannot say anymore about it and I was taking a chance saying by that much.

[MindPilot]

19. HA! Good one.

[Rozlee]

22. You sound as bad as my aunt

That schemer put two of her references down for a job as a secretary at San Antonio College, as Archbishop Flores of San Antonio and Congressman Henry B. Gonzalez (May he RIP). She got the job. That was almost 25 years ago and she's now a dept. head and she still doesn't know if they ever gave her references, or if the college ever was able to get through such busy important men for a mere job reference. Sure it wasn't honest. But, hell, it took chutzpah!

[Cid_B]

26. That....

... is motherf'ing genius!!!

[DireStrike]

20. Is there a level requirement on the referring cleric?

Sounds like a standard back-and-forth quest to me.

[rucky]

29. I knew there was a D&D joke in here somewhere.

[Renew Deal]

21. Don't worry. They won't talk to references unless they are serious about you.

So it works both ways.

[winyanstaz]

28. ignore the unrecs...:) you are doing fine....

[Gman]

31. I don't think "clergy" has to be an indication that they may be fundies

if that's your fear. I don't think its anything one way or the other. And I kinda see it as a bit of an easy reference to have for those that might not, assuming they have a pastor or similar. I can understand not including friends or family as they will lie for you. For example, family will lie for you if you're a deadbeat dad so you'll get the job and pay child support. It's that kind of stuff they don't want.

[adamuu]

32. You'd think "clients" and "business partneres" would count n/t

[DU GrovelBot]

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[Le Taz Hot]

36. I think you have it right in regarding this

as a practice interview. It's obvious these guys are religious fanatics and, trust me, I know from experience you DON'T want to work for them. Biggest assholes I ever worked for were fundie Southern Baptists.

[DaveinJapan]

37. "On edit: less than two minutes and I have an unrec!? What the hell?"

That alone get's a K&R from me.

The unrec thing here totally sucks, and I hope the management realizes that (why give scumbags the chance to quash reasonable discussion? I don't get it)...

I'll make another post on the overall here, after I've read everything else but in general "clergy"...well, that's nice to know, anyone job seeking should head down to their local Mormon temple and call themselves a Mormon, and I'm sure they'll have 10 recommendations for the job by the end of the day.....

On EDIT...I read the posts and they're mostly along the lines of advice about the interview, so I've got no more to add.

Good luck!

[Joanie Baloney]

38. I think the GrovelBot is a professional reference

Put him down as a reference and see what they say. I hear he's very persuasive. ;)

Good luck on your search.

And, BTW to 'Gratuitous' - bite me.

Thank you.

-JB

[man4allcats]

40. I once interviewed for a laboratory position

where the principal investigator, a D.V.M. Ph.D. type, was more interested in knowing who at the Baptist church he attended might know me than who my professional references were. Needless to say, I didn't get the job. Of course, I knew before I exited that interview that I wouldn't and further that I wouldn't accept it even if it were offered.

[slackmaster]

41. I'm an Ordained Minister in the Church of the SubGenius

If you need a clergy reference, I'll be happy to provide one.

[Joanie Baloney]

46. Is that you??

Is that you, Pastor Farian?? ;)

[Historic NY]

43. Can it be living or dead clergy?

[FirstLight]

44. I don't give ref's on first blush either...

The whole bullshit is that employers KNOW they have us over a barrell ight now and so many of the usual courtesies are chucked out the window. Trust me, I just finished a Cert in HR and I heard it in class. Since the current job market is what it is, employers are able to be a bit more agressive in 'weeding out' people, and as long as they stay within the law, they can ask all sorts of bullshit questions.

It is none of their beeswax if someone is a 'friend', if you can give them a 'profesional' reason for the connection.
...and it sems to me that asking for clergy is a back-door way of asking about your religious afiliations, without violating law.

ugh, the whole market sux right now...I wish you luck in finding something that suits your needs and hopefully is rewarding as well!

(edit...morning coffee spelling)

[TwilightGardener]

48. If the application wants references, then why wouldn't you supply them?

In this job market especially, I imagine they'd automatically toss incomplete applications into the circular file.

[FirstLight]

53. ...because it is not appropriate to give out that info

unless there is an interview in the works or an offer and the co. is doing their research & follow up.
They don't call on every application, why put all that info out there? Feels like a privacy issue(for the ref's too).

and i have been told is is apropos to put "ref's on request" on a resume but tacky to list them...

[liberalhistorian]

45. I'm sorry, but this is not a big deal and it's very

common, has been for a long time. I can certainly understand why they'd prohibit references from family and/or friends. I would, too, if I were the one hiring. And many clergy are in a position to give honest evaluations of a person's character, honesty, dependability and ability to perform the job.

And in my entire adult life I've yet to complete an application that did not request such references and contact information prior to any interview. It's just standard practice and nothing to get upset or excited about.

[MindPilot]

49. That may have been true back in the days of paper applications

You could be reasonably certain that data wasn't going anywhere but maybe a file cabinet in the Personnel office. But I'm not going to put someone else's contact information on a web form.

[liberalhistorian]

51. Then you'd better get used to not

having a job, because I guarantee that that's the way it's done 99.9999% of the time. And if you refuse, you simply won't be considered.

[MindPilot]

50. Why would a clergyman be in a better position to speak to my character

more so than say a long-time friend who is a police officer?

I'd be afraid the priest would go into a little too much detail, "Mr. Mindpilot is a good upstanding member of the community, but I do recall that incident involving experimentation with gunpowder when he was about twelve..."

[ItNerd4life]

52. To answer your question, many companies don't allow you

to hire relatives. It can cause a huge conflict interest. References are the same thing, a relative has a lot
better chance of being biased and unprofessional than a non-relative.

A friend has the same issues as a relative. However, if the person is a professional with experience working with you,
then it is a professional reference, who happened to become a friend after working with them.