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Cyrano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-15-09 11:31 AM
Original message
This morning, Hillary was trying to peddle us a bunch of crap
No, I'm not a Hillary hater. And I'm not an Obama hater. But why the hell are we still in Afghanistan?

This morning, I began to watch "This Week" with Stephanopolis, and Hillary spent the first three minutes handing us a line of crap worthy of Dick Cheney.

I've said this before here, and I will repeat it. Afghanistan is a collection of local war lords who grow poppies for opium, pillage and plunder everything in sight, and have no regard for anything called a "central government." And "President" Hamid Khazai is a figurehead who's stolen a few "elections" (with our help?).

Al Queda is spread out world wide. They are not a centralized group of people hanging out in Afghanistan. The Taliban are some of the worst people imaginable. And for each one our army kills, three more join up with them.

Why the hell is American blood being spilled in this remote, rock-filled, mountainous place where everyone hates our guts and has no history of having ever been a civilized (or even unified) country?
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Orrex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-15-09 11:35 AM
Response to Original message
1. Aside from leaving the country an absolute, catastrophic disaster
what would happen if we just pulled out of Afghanistan?


I hate that we're still there, but I can't see a reasonable, responsible alternative at this point.
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-15-09 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. Afghanistan is the world's longest-standing "absolute, catastrophic disaster."
The real reason nobody has ever conquered them--not the British, not the Mongols, not the Russians, not the Indians, and ultimately not us--is because there is no meaningful way in which you can get "conquer" and "absolute, catastrophic disaster" into a sensible sentence, let alone into any semblance of political reality.
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Cyrano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-15-09 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #1
7. Okay, let me try this again. Afghanistan has always been a catastrophic disaster
mistakenly called a country.
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C_Lawyer09 Donating Member (690 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-15-09 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #7
30. Are you kidding me?
The Afghanistan of today bears little resemblance to the Afghanistan of old. Now, after fighting the Brits, French Russians and us, along with the lust of the Pashtuns to spell any break in combat with fighting amongst themselves, I'm not sure if Afghanistan will ever reclaim what it was.
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trumad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-15-09 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #1
11. LOL
Well for one--- No Americans would die in that shit hole.

Is that enough of a reason?
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Orrex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-15-09 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #11
54. Enough of a reason? Maybe, maybe not.
If we bear part of the responsibility for making it a shit hole, or for making a worse shit hole than it was, then I don't see how we can morally leave the country to its own devices. Even as a practical matter with historical precedent, we've already seen what happens when we abandon a war-ravaged Afghanistan.

I'm not claiming that I have the solution, and I sure as hell don't know what the solution might be, but I'm pretty sure that it can't be "just wash our hands of the whole damn thing."
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SandWalker1984 Donating Member (533 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-15-09 11:57 PM
Response to Reply #54
64. Afghanistan is about the 3 P's -- pipelines, poppies and profits
Pipelines to carry oil and natural gas, pipelines controlled by the US.

Let's Speak the Truth About Afghanistan

By Eric Margolis

30/07/08 "Huffington Post" -- - NEW YORK -- During his triumphant European tour, Senator Barack Obama again urged NATO's members to send more troops to Afghanistan and called the conflict there, "the central front in the war on terror." Europe's response ranged from polite evasion to downright frosty.

It is unfortunate that Obama has adopted President George Bush's misleading terminology, "war on terror," to describe the conflict between the United States and anti-American groups in the Muslim world. Like many Americans, he and his foreign policy advisors are sorely misinformed about the reality of Afghanistan.

One understands Obama's need to respond with martial élan to rival John McCain's chest-thumping about "I know how to win wars." Polls put McCain far ahead of Obama when it comes to being a war leader. But Obama's recent proposal to send at least 7,000 more U.S. troops to Afghanistan, and his threats to attack Pakistan's territory, and warnings about Islamabad's nuclear forces, show poor judgment and lack of knowledge.

The United States is no longer "fighting terrorism" in Afghanistan, as Bush, Obama and McCain insist. The 2001 U.S. invasion was a legitimate operation against al-Qaeda, a group that properly fit the role of a "terrorist organization." But, contrary to the White House's wildly inflated claims that Osama bin Laden's al-Qaeda was a worldwide conspiracy, it never numbered more than 300 hard core members. Bin Laden and his jihadis long ago scattered into all corners of Pakistan and elsewhere. Only a handful remain in Afghanistan.

Today, 80,000 U.S. and NATO troops are waging war against the Taliban. Having accompanied the mujahidin fighting the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan during the 1980's, witnessed the birth of Taliban, and penned a book about the Afghan struggle, "War at the Top of the World," I can attest that Taliban is not a terrorist organization as the U.S. and its allies wrongly claim.

Taliban was created in the early 1990's during the chaos and civil war that engulfed Afghanistan after the Soviet invaders were driven out. Drawn from Pashtun tribes of southern Afghanistan, who make up half that nation's population, Taliban was a religious movement that took up arms to battle the Afghan Communists, stop the wide-scale rape of Afghan women, and halt banditry and the drug trade. Both Pakistan and the U.S. secretly aided Taliban.

The ranks of Taliban were filled with young religious students -- "talibs" -- and veteran mujahidin fighters whom the U.S. had armed and hailed as "freedom fighters." By 1996, Taliban took Kabul, driving out the Northern Alliance, the old rump of the Afghan Communist Party and its Russian-backed Tajik and Uzbek tribal supporters. Taliban, most of whom were mountaineers, imposed a draconian medievalist culture that followed traditional Pashtun tribal customs and Islamic law.

The U.S. quietly backed Taliban for possible use in Central Asia, against China in the event of war, and against Iran, a bitter foe of the Sunni Taliban. U.S. energy giants Chevron and Unocal negotiated gas and oil pipeline deals with Taliban. In 2001, Washington gave $40 million in aid to Taliban until four months before 9/11. The U.S. only turned against Taliban when, at Osama bin Laden's advice, it gave a major pipeline deal to an Argentine consortium rather than an American one.

Read the rest of the story at:
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article20386.htm
**********


Poppies, as in drug trade.

America's Drug Crisis: Brought to You by the CIA
Wed, 10/28/2009 - 14:32 — dlindorff

Next time you see a junkie sprawled at the curb in the downtown of your nearest city, or read about someone who died of a heroin overdose, just imagine a big yellow sign posted next to him or her saying: “Your Federal Tax Dollars at Work.”

Kudos to the New York Times, and to reporters Dexter Filkins, Mark Mazzetti and James Risen, for their lead article today reporting that Ahmed Wali Karzai, brother of Afghanistan’s stunningly corrupt President Hamid Karzai, a leading drug lord in the world’s major opium-producing nation, has for eight years been on the CIA payroll.

Okay, the article was lacking much historical perspective (more on that later), and the dead hand of top editors was evident in the overly cautious tone (I loved the third paragraph, which stated that “The financial ties and close working relationship between the intelligence agency and Mr. Karzai raises significant questions about America’s war strategy, which is currently under review at the White House.” Well, duh! It should be raising questions about why we are even in Afghanistan, about who should be going to jail at the CIA, and about how can the government explain this to the families of the over 1000 soldiers and Marines who have died supposedly helping to build a new Afghanistan). But that said, the newspaper that helped cheerlead us into the pointless and criminal Iraq invasion in 2003, and that prevented journalist Risen from running his exposé of the Bush/Cheney administration’s massive warrantless National Security Agency electronic spying operation until after the 2004 presidential election, this time gave a critically important story full timely play, and even, appropriately, included a teaser in the same front-page story about October being the most deadly month yet for the US in Afghanistan.

What the article didn’t mention at all is that there is a clear historical pattern here. During the Vietnam War, the CIA, and its Air America airline front-company, were neck deep in the Southeast Asian heroin trade. At the time, it was Southeast Asia, not Afghanistan, that was the leading producer and exporter of opium, mostly to the US, where there was a resulting heroin epidemic.

A decade later, in the 1980s, during the Reagan administration, as the late investigative journalist Gary Webb so brilliantly documented first in a series titled “Dark Alliance” in the San Jose Mercury News newspaper, and later in a book by that same name, the CIA was deeply involved in the development of and smuggling of cocaine into the US, which was soon engulfed in a crack cocaine epidemic—one that continues to destroy African American and other poor communities across the country. (The Times' role here was sordid—it and other leading papers, including the Washington Post and Los Angeles Times—did despicable hit pieces on Webb shamelessly trashing his work and his career, and ultimately driving him to suicide, though his facts have held up.) In this case, Webb showed that the Agency was actually using the drugs as a way to fund arms, which it could use its own planes to ferry down to the Contra forces it was backing to subvert the Sandinista government in Nicaragua at a time Congress had barred the US from supporting the Contras.

And now we have Afghanistan, once a sleepy backwater of the world with little connection to drugs (the Taliban, before their overthrow by US forces in 2001, had, according to the UN, virtually eliminated opium production there), but now responsible for as much as 80 percent of the world’s opium production—this at a time that the US effectively finances and runs the place, with an occupying army that, together with Afghan government forces that it controls, outnumbers the Taliban 12-1 according to a recent AP story.

The real story here is that where the US goes, the drug trade soon follows, and the leading role in developing and nurturing that trade appears to be played by the Central Intelligence Agency.

Read the rest of the story at:
http://www.thiscantbehappening.net/?q=node/408
*************


Profits, as in war profiteering corporations.

Pentagon Pouring Your Money Into Afghanistan: Are They Preparing for a Very Long War?

By Nick Turse, Tomdispatch.com
Posted on November 9, 2009, Printed on November 9, 2009

In recent weeks, President Obama has been contemplating the future of U.S. military operations in Afghanistan. He has also been touting the effects of his policies at home, reporting that this year's Recovery Act not only saved jobs, but also was "the largest investment in infrastructure since Eisenhower built the Interstate Highway System in the 1950s." At the same time, another much less publicized U.S.-taxpayer-funded infrastructure boom has been underway. This one in Afghanistan.

While Washington has put modest funding into civilian projects in Afghanistan this year -- ranging from small-scale power plants to "public latrines" to a meat market -- the real construction boom is military in nature. The Pentagon has been funneling stimulus-sized sums of money to defense contractors to markedly boost its military infrastructure in that country.

In fiscal year 2009, for example, the civilian U.S. Agency for International Development awarded $20 million in contracts for work in Afghanistan, while the U.S. Army alone awarded $2.2 billion -- $834 million of it for construction projects. In fact, according to Walter Pincus of the Washington Post, the Pentagon has spent "roughly $2.7 billion on construction over the past three fiscal years" in that country and, "if its request is approved as part of the fiscal 2010 defense appropriations bill, it would spend another $1.3 billion on more than 100 projects at 40 sites across the country, according to a Senate report on the legislation."

Bogged Down at Bagram

Nowhere has the building boom been more apparent than Bagram Air Base, a key military site used by the Soviet Union during its occupation of Afghanistan in the 1980s. In its American incarnation, the base has significantly expanded from its old Soviet days and, in just the last two years, the population of the more than 5,000 acre compound has doubled to 20,000 troops, in addition to thousands of coalition forces and civilian contractors. To keep up with its exponential growth rate, more than $200 million in construction projects are planned or in-progress at this moment on just the Air Force section of the base. "Seven days a week, concrete trucks rumble along the dusty perimeter road of this air base as bulldozers and backhoes reshape the rocky earth," Chuck Crumbo of The State reported recently. "Hundreds of laborers slap mortar onto bricks as they build barracks and offices. Four concrete plants on the base have operated around the clock for 18 months to keep up with the construction needs."

Read the rest of the story at:
http://www.alternet.org/story/143819/

*******************

NOW WHY IS IT WE ARE STILL IN AFGHANISTAN?
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winston61 Donating Member (642 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-15-09 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #1
23. Are you kidding?-- I have what I think is the solution for Afghanistan-
I call it 'Get The Hell Out'. Line up the planes, call all the troops into the airfield, put 'em on the planes, fly the planes to western Europe for R&R then bring 'em home. The Afghanis don't want us there, the government (which we support) is corrupt. They and their CIA contacts know this, the Congress knows it and even Barack Obama knows it. In western terms it is a failed state. In Afghani terms everything is fine. So, let's get the hell out. If they want to live in 9th century, what is that to us? Does anyone remember that Afghanistan is still called the 'Graveyard of Empires'?
If you want to talk about making a difference, how about talking about where the arms for 'insurgents' and Taliban are coming from? China? Eastern Europe? Why not put a little pressure on the arms dealers? Or does that hit a little too close to home? And why should an Afghani farmer NOT grow poppy? The western countries the drugs flow to don't seem to be willing to stop it. Perhaps a little too much cash incentive to try and shut down the highly placed, well connected money launderers. American foreign policy is never happy with merely stepping into shit. They want to jump and down and spread shit everywhere they can then say 'Look at all the shit, we need more troops to clean up all this shit'. And Jesus wept.
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-15-09 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #23
49. +higher-than-I-can-count.
If you want to talk about making a difference, how about talking about where the arms for 'insurgents' and Taliban are coming from? China? Eastern Europe? Why not put a little pressure on the arms dealers? Or does that hit a little too close to home? And why should an Afghani farmer NOT grow poppy? The western countries the drugs flow to don't seem to be willing to stop it. Perhaps a little too much cash incentive to try and shut down the highly placed, well connected money launderers.


Bingo!

American foreign policy is never happy with merely stepping into shit. They want to jump and down and spread shit everywhere they can then say 'Look at all the shit, we need more troops to clean up all this shit'.


And Jesus wept.

Indeed.
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Fire1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-15-09 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #23
52. "look at all the shit, we need nore troops to clean up all this shit."
ROFLMAO!!!:rofl: :rofl: Sorry, I had to laugh! Comical but so true! HAHA!!
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KakistocracyHater Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-15-09 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #23
61. what you said plus Berlin Food Drop over Afghanistan for a few years
no bombs, just foodstuffs & medicines.
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-15-09 11:37 AM
Response to Original message
2. There's a lot of chatter about Pakistan too.
I need more information, but why would we really need to invade them to tackle a handful of petty terrorists? Is OBL truly there?

Or are we being the patsy to yet another dispute not relevant to our country (first it's Israel vs Palestine and not it could very well be Pakistan vs India.)
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-15-09 11:44 AM
Response to Original message
4. it was interesting
Edited on Sun Nov-15-09 11:44 AM by bigtree
. . . to hear the SoS justify our involvement there in terms of our national security. It's unclear how she sees the role of our military in the equation of holding the Karzai regime accountable. My first response would be to ask what we've gained in terms of that security from the increased force that the president ordered deployed in February.

"We're going to be doing what we can to create an atmosphere in which the blood and treasure that the United States has committed to Afghanistan can be justified and can produce the kind of results that we're looking for," Clinton said.

I'd be interested to hear the justification for the record number of deaths in the last two months surrounding that increased deployment. Most of what we're being told is that we've facilitated the re-ascendency to power of a corrupt regime. That would seem to indicate a waste of those lives and resources.

What I'm looking for is something from the administration which clearly demonstrates progress behind the deployments and sacrifice of life, limb, and livelihood toward their stated primary 'goal' of 'defeating al-Qaeda' (a crap-shoot, imo).
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-15-09 11:44 AM
Response to Original message
5. And we fund the Taliban...
As U.S. Ambassador Casts Doubt on Troop Increase in Afghanistan, New Report Reveals U.S. Indirectly Funding the Taliban

In a last-minute dissent ahead of a critical war cabinet meeting on escalating the Afghan war, U.S. Ambassador Karl Eikenberry has cast doubt on a troop escalation until the Afghan government can address corruption and other internal problems. Meanwhile, a report reveals how the US government is financing the very same insurgent forces in Afghanistan that American and NATO soldiers are fighting. Investigative journalist Aram Roston traces how the Pentagon’s civilian contractors in Afghanistan end up paying insurgent groups to protect American supply routes from attack.

The U.S. Ambassador to Afghanistan is warning against sending more troops to fight in the Afghan war. In a last-minute dissent, Ambassador Karl Eikenberry sent two cables this week casting doubt on a troop escalation until the Afghan government can address corruption and other internal problems.

Well today we turn to a new report that reveals how the US government is financing the very same insurgent forces in Afghanistan that American and NATO soldiers are fighting.
“How the US Funds the Taliban” is the cover story of the latest issue of the Nation magazine.

Investigative journalist Aram Roston traces how the Pentagon’s civilian contractors in Afghanistan end up paying insurgent groups to protect American supply routes from attack. The practice of buying the Taliban’s protection is not a secret. US military officials in Kabul told Roston that a minimum of 10 percent of the Pentagon"s logistics contracts consists of payments to the Taliban.

That translates into millions of dollars being funneled to the Taliban. This summer, anticipating a surge of US troops, the military expanded its trucking contracts in Afghanistan by 600 percent to a total of over two billion dollars.

Well, Aram Roston joins us now here in the firehouse studio. He"s the author of the book “The man who pushed America to War: The Life, Adventures, and Obsessions of Ahmad Chalabi.” His latest piece “How the US Funds the Taliban” was supported by the investigative fund at the Nation institute.

...

http://www.democracynow.org/2009/11/12/taliban
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-15-09 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #5
10. and created al Qaida
so what's that say about us...
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-15-09 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. That we have goals, we have pretexts, and never the twain shall meet?
Edited on Sun Nov-15-09 11:53 AM by Junkdrawer
Seems to me that what it says...
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-15-09 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #12
18. we you create an enemy, and then base a massively destructive 'war' on that enemy
it says much more than that, IMO.
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-15-09 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. True. Creating Terror by Nafeez Ahmed....
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-15-09 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #18
47. exactly
protection racket
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-15-09 11:45 AM
Response to Original message
6. The same reason for every "war" since WWII, to prop up and protect corporate assets.
And the worse they can make things here, the more fodder they get for their bloodbath.


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opihimoimoi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-15-09 11:46 AM
Response to Original message
8. and wha would happen if the Traliban dudes take over Afghani and later Paki??? Pakistan has NUKES
Meaning, the extremists would have possession of NUKES...which, they will share and then, we would lose millions of lives...
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tekisui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-15-09 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. Unbased fear. The Taliban are not going to take over Pakistan.
Further, the Pakistan Taliban is not the Afghanistan Taliban. The Afghanistan Taliban are more and more being brought into the political process by the US and Karzai.
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Cyrano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-15-09 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #9
14. That's one hell of a claim. Can you substantiate it or back it up in any way?
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tekisui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-15-09 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. Which one?
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Cyrano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-15-09 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. The part about the Afghan Taliban
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tekisui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-15-09 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #19
25. Here ya go:
Here is why Pakistan is not at risk of falling to the Taliban:
Why the Taliban won't take over Pakistan: http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/0607/p06s07-wosc.html

Here are some articles on Afghan's Taliban:
Karzai welcoming 'Taliban brother's' during acceptance speech: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6916583

US to Pay Taliban to Switch Sides: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6871239

Taliban Not the Enemy in Afghanistan: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6653230

One more: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6859693

There are more, but that is what I could find quickly.
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Cyrano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-15-09 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #25
31. Let's get back to the original premise.
Edited on Sun Nov-15-09 12:28 PM by Cyrano
There is no way that the Afghan Taliban can take over Pakistan because Pakistan has a large, somewhat capable standing army. The Afghan Taliban are nothing more than a loosely organized bunch of religious fanatic warlords.

And none of them are worth the life of a single American military person.

As far as taking over Afhanistan, we're supposed to care about this because ... ?
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tekisui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-15-09 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. Exactly.
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opihimoimoi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-15-09 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #9
15. despite your optimism....I remain dubias...That is a strange place
and as far as I am concerned....anything is possible ...inclu bad stuffs
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-15-09 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #15
24. The Pakistan army is considered capable and willing
. . . to defend their nukes (and government) against some takeover by Taliban or al-Qaeda. In Afghanistan, even our military admits that al-Qaeda has been routed from that country. The element which makes al-Qaeda any danger is their ability to influence individuals bent on violent resistance against the NATO presence and activity and the Afghan and Pak regime's coziness with the U.S..

It's always interesting to hear folks in the administration and without assert that our military presence there is some defense against extremism when it's clear that the main instigator to that 'extreme' resistance is our military occupation and our actions in defense of our nation's grudging, vengeful campaign against al-Qaeda (which is not always in the best interest of these propped-up regimes).
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-15-09 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #8
27. The claim I postulated earlier is now void.
Yours is an EXCELLENT point...

I also hope al quaeda doesn't mosey into India either...
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Subdivisions Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-15-09 11:52 AM
Response to Original message
13. She also said today that she would LOVE to have coffee with
Sarah Palin.

:puke:
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Cyrano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-15-09 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #13
17. I didn't stay tuned in long enough to hear that.
Nonetheless, it's part of each and every politician's job description to endlessly heave bullshit at us.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-15-09 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #13
21. as would I
admit it, being around such a rarified version of idocy would be a once in a life time experience.
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Cyrano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-15-09 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #21
26. Oh, give me a break. While you were having coffee, she'd drain the
brain cells from your head. This tactic has been perfected by Limbaugh and it's the biggest secret weapon the lunatic right has.
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JohnnyLib2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-15-09 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #21
39. I'll go with you and buy.

Always wanted to interview Michael Jackson, too.
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Individualist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-15-09 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #13
22. No doubt
Edited on Sun Nov-15-09 12:07 PM by Individualist
Just like Bill likes to pal around with the Bushies. DLC loves neocons.
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-15-09 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #13
35. It would be impolitic to say anything else. nt
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Ikonoklast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-15-09 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #13
46. Only for the lulz.
Can you imagine Palin trying to discuss foreign policy with Hillary Clinton?

It would bs like Carrie Prejean discussing the Yang–Mills theory with Steven Hawking.
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rvablue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-15-09 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #13
51. Video for those who'd like to see that she gave a flatline response to a stupid question:
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-15-09 12:20 PM
Response to Original message
28. It's the new version of "Smoke 'em out!" and "Bring it on!". All that's missing is the cowboy boots
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rug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-15-09 12:21 PM
Response to Original message
29. Complain to her boss.
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FormerDittoHead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-15-09 12:30 PM
Response to Original message
33. Obama should fire her as he wants to pull out as quickly as possible.
Yeah that Hillary. What a bunch of crap. There was NOTHING she said that represented what Obama was DOING.

Obama is TEARING DOWN the Military and big business and our war economy. Hillary is THE ONE keeping us in Afghanistan.

:sarcasm:

Clinton's not speaking just for herself, nor is she just speaking to Democrats, nor is she just speaking to Americans.

I don't like it either. But Hillary is NOT Dick Cheney. Unlike Bush's delegation of authority, Obama IS the President.

I think it's a good idea for Obama to let Hillary take the flak for this clusterfuck, but Obama should be taking the flak for his decisions (and indecision).

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Cyrano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-15-09 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #33
37. I can't disagree with you. All she's doing is peddling shit on Obama's behalf.
Edited on Sun Nov-15-09 12:57 PM by Cyrano
I wasn't comparing Hillary to Cheney. I was comparing the line of crap she was selling to the crap Cheney has always tried to sell us.

I should have made clear in my OP that she was just carrying out Obama's policies (whatever the hell they are). Many of us knocked ourselves out to get Obama elected. And many of us are now wondering what the hell he stands for.
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JohnnyLib2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-15-09 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #37
40. Thank you for restating.
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Lord Helmet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-15-09 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #37
55. HClinton advised Obama to escalate in Afghanistan.
Edited on Sun Nov-15-09 03:10 PM by Lord Helmet
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/11/world/asia/11policy.html">LINK (edited to fix link)

3 Obama Advisers Favor More Troops for Afghanistan

By ELISABETH BUMILLER and DAVID E. SANGER
Published: November 10, 2009

WASHINGTON — Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates, Adm. Mike Mullen, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton are coalescing around a proposal to send 30,000 or more additional American troops to Afghanistan, but President Obama remains unsatisfied with answers he has gotten about how vigorously the governments of Afghanistan and Pakistan would help execute a new strategy, administration officials said Tuesday.

- snip
_______________________________________________________________________________________

HClinton is a hawk and I'm glad she's not making the decision on Afghanistan.

There is big difference between how HClinton and Obama view foreign policy. For instance, she offered Gen. Zinni the post of ambassador to Iraq but Obama overruled her and appointed Christopher Hill.

It's pretty clear she expressed her own views on MtP.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-15-09 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #55
59. You're right..President Obama isn't peddling
this shit..according to the OP.

And, nobody's getting fired..they all have their stances and some are more hawk than others.

President Obama will make the final decision..and I've been paying attention so I know what he stands for and he's doing a fantastic job.
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Karmadillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-15-09 12:38 PM
Response to Original message
34. Wait until President Obama finds out about this. Heads will roll!!!!
nt
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Cyrano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-15-09 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #34
38. See post 37 above.
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SammyWinstonJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-15-09 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #34
42. +1
:evilgrin:
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-15-09 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #34
50. ...
:rofl:
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NoUsername Donating Member (265 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-16-09 12:30 AM
Response to Reply #34
66. And if you thik that will piss him off, just wait until he finds out about
all the crap the Wall Street barons have been pulling. The shit will really hit the fan then!
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LuckyLib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-15-09 12:48 PM
Response to Original message
36. Mark Danner, explained to Bill Moyers that soldiers in Afghanistan
have realized that the little village rebels they are searching out are not in any way linked to the little village rebels 2 kilometers down the road. The reasons and pretexts for each band of armed fighters differs and everybody hates Karzai and the Americans. We are doomed.

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/10162009/profile.html

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Bitwit1234 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-15-09 01:19 PM
Response to Original message
41. OH DOESN'T HILLARY TAKE HER ORDERS FROM THE WHITE HOUSE????
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Cyrano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-15-09 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #41
43. Yes. Why not bother to read up a couple of posts above yours?
Edited on Sun Nov-15-09 01:34 PM by Cyrano
Try post #37.
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Sinti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-15-09 01:27 PM
Response to Original message
44. It's a very tenuous situation, and I trust he's intelligent enough to untangle it
Edited on Sun Nov-15-09 01:33 PM by Sinti
There are many factors President Obama has to take into account. If he's an honest man and wants the least possible amount of death this is the minimum of what he has to sort out:

1. There is no Al Qaeda, per se. This is a catch all name for Islamic extremists and anyone else we don't like in that part of the world. Watch Part 3 of the movie at the link in my sig if you want to understand this better.

2. The CIA is split and dangerous, IMO - the originators of this extremist gang are/were CIA trained thugs. As you have seen recently in the news, there are still CIA-paid men in high places. Karzai's half-brother is one, but if you see one... let's just say you can think of them like cockroaches.

3. Apparently the military is split, and is testing his resolve. They have a plan for The Long War and they probably intend to see it through. If they planned for 100 years war, one would think they intended for it to continue through many presidents and have controls in place to ensure the continuation of their campaign, regardless of the wishes of the CiC

4. A large portion of your forces are not regular military, they are mercenaries. Rumsfeld apparently thought it was a good idea to "privatize" parts of the military. These companies, DynCorp and so on, are involved in human trafficking and have zero respect for human life. A large chunk of your war budget goes directly into corporate pockets. It is entirely possible that, in order to continue getting paid, they could simply start killing people in Afghanistan. If you look at the UK soldiers that dressed up in Arab garb and bombed that mosque, only to be imprisoned then released from prison via tank you can get an idea. If you don't think these companies would do "demand generation" I feel you may be a bit naive.

5. The media is owned either by the war machine folks themselves, or by people highly invested in the business of mass murder. As yo may have noticed, the corporate media is highly resistant to discussing anything that's genuinely anti-war. It's going to be very hard for him to get the people to an understanding that not killing every human being in the country is not the same as losing. We have technically "won" both of these wars - it's only the killing that goes on.

I want the killing to stop, however that happens. There is never a "good" reason for war - problems should be dealt with long before they escalate. Villagers never want to kill anyone, they'd prefer dinner, so you have the people on your side if you are on the side of peace.

Edited to add links
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-15-09 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #44
48. Brava! Excellent post!
I think the CIA and the mercenaries are the biggest problem. Even if we pull our own armed forces out, how will we extract THOSE forces? They'll still be involved in running drugs and weapons. There's enourmous amounts of money to made, and behind every corporate mercenary there's a global financier getting fat on laundered money.

Afghanistan is really just a symptom of a far deeper and more insidious rot going on in the world.

sw
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-16-09 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #44
70. +10-- rec'd the OP just for your response!
:applause:
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-16-09 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #44
71. Excellent post. nt
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-15-09 01:29 PM
Response to Original message
45. Thank you, Cyrano. Recommend 100%. OUT NOW!!!
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Aramchek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-15-09 02:29 PM
Response to Original message
53. your Concern is overflowing today, isn't it? you should post a few more threads on this subject
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Cyrano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-15-09 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #53
56. I've made other posts today, but not on this subject. So may I ask
WTF are you talking about???
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-15-09 04:19 PM
Response to Original message
57. Cyrano, the Rand Corporation explained all of this very nicely.
Edited on Sun Nov-15-09 04:20 PM by truedelphi
You and I are only consumers, who do not understand these matters very well.

They understand these matters very well. They are the experts. And Clinton and Obama have decided to listen to the experts.

After all, we all remember that fabulous victory that the Rand experts brought us in Vietnam, don't we"? And don't forget, that victory prevented the domino effect, that would have turned every other nation into Communist run dictatorships.


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truth2power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-15-09 06:14 PM
Response to Original message
58. I saw it, too. HRC was lying through her teeth. It's so tiresome...
We're not there for the women, or children, or to win hearts and minds.

We're there to secure the Helmand Province area for the proposed oil and gas pipeline.

It's about resources. It's always about resources. And we'll NEVER be out of Afghanistan, or Iraq for that matter. We need to protect the oil and gas resources in that part of the world.

And Obama lies by omission. Pay attention whenever he starts talking about our "mission". It's always in the vaguest of terms.

Just for the record, I don't hate Obama. I don't claim to know why he thinks we need to be in Afghanistan. Maybe he's a corporate tool. Maybe he really believes the US has a right of ownership to anything of value on the planet, even if it belonged to someone else first. Maybe he's afraid he'll get shot if he steps out of line, just like Kennedy was.

It just seems to me that none of it is worth one more American life.

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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-15-09 06:27 PM
Response to Original message
60. AQ and OBL are not in Afghanistan because the US and NATO are there
AQ cannot operate freely in Afghanistan like they did on 9/10 because the US and NATO are there.

AQ cannot operate freely and openly in northern Pakistan because of US Predator strikes launched from Afghanistan.

That is why "they are not a centralized group of people hanging out in Afghanistan" after 9/11.

get it?

prolly not


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Gregorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-15-09 08:49 PM
Response to Original message
62. Because the biggest part of our economy is-
And those who run this country are-
Hint- it's not the president. It's not us. It's a building with five sides.


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SandWalker1984 Donating Member (533 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-15-09 11:40 PM
Response to Original message
63. Why we will lose in Afghanistan - the Telegraph gets it, why not Clinton, the Pentagon & Obama?

Why we will lose in Afghanistan

What we are hardly ever told about the country is that it has been for 300 years the scene of a bitter civil war, says Christopher Booker

By Christopher Booker
Published: 6:47PM Nov 2009

As both Britain and America are plunged into an orgy of tortured introspection over what we are doing in Afghanistan, a further very important factor needs to be fed into the discussion, because it helps to explain not only why we have got into such a tragic mess but also why our armed intervention in that unhappy country is doomed.
What we are hardly ever told about Afghanistan is that it has been for 300 years the scene of a bitter civil war, between two tribal groups of Pashtuns (formerly known as Pathans). On one side are the Durranis – most of the settled population, farmers, traders, the professional middle class. On the other are the Ghilzai, traditionally nomadic, fiercely fundamentalist in religion, whose tribal homelands stretch across into Pakistan as far as Kashmir.

Ever since Afghanistan emerged as an independent nation in 1709, when the Ghilzai kicked out the Persians, its history has been written in the ancient hatred between these two groups. During most of that time, the country has been ruled by Durrani, who in 1775 moved its capital from the Ghilzai stronghold of Kandahar up to Kabul in the north. Nothing has more fired Ghilzai enmity than the many occasions when the Durrani have attempted to impose their rule from Kabul with the aid of "foreigners", either Tajiks from the north or outsiders such as the British, who invaded Afghanistan three times between 1838 and 1919 in a bid to secure the North-west Frontier of their Indian empire against the rebellious Ghilzai.

When the Soviets invaded Afghanistan in 1979, after years of Durrani rule, it was to support a revolutionary Ghilzai government. But this new foreign presence inspired general Afghan resistance which was why, by the late 1980s, the Americans were supporting the almost entirely Ghilzai-run Taleban and their ally Osama bin Laden. In 1996 the Taleban-Ghilzai got their revenge, imposing their theocratic rule over almost the whole country. In 2001, we invaded to topple the Taleban, again imposing Durrani rule, now under the Durrani President Karzai.

You can read the rest at:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/christopherbooker/6570380/Why-we-will-lose-in-Afghanistan.html


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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-16-09 12:16 AM
Response to Reply #63
65. You & I & the USA will lose, but
..the War Profiteers and their paid political dogs will continue to reap $BILLIONS$.
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glowing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-16-09 03:21 AM
Response to Original message
67. A natural Gas pipe line and the the drug running that is now free and clear thanks to
US in house. Those 2 reasons seem like good ones.. and it props up the military-ind. How else sucker money out of people who are starving in their own country?
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Vidar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-16-09 03:30 AM
Response to Original message
68. K&R
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pleah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-16-09 10:51 AM
Response to Original message
69. Why? Oil and poppies. n/t
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