What have we really got left ?

[blues90]

I read all sorts of posts here and other forums and listen to a few liberal radio shows.

Certainly there are some people who are doing ok ,or better than ok.

I think about the propects we have, the possibilities left.

Really without living wage jobs available for anyone capable of working then everything else falls down into the dirt. No matter what sort of health insurance bill is offered up without an income what chance has one got to buy into it and what good is it.

When people are forced to work two to three jobs just to make ends meet and have a family then all suffer and life becomes a grinding mill , that provides one can even find one job and many can't.

I don't see jobs coming back anytime soon or even a description of just what they might be , as most know by now the jobs we lost are not coming back and green jobs are for the most part not now but in the future.

The unions have cut back on members and wages , schools are broke and entire states are broke.

Yes it started with Reagan and even before Reagan.

What we do fund are wars and hardware and box stores and slave labor and believe in political promises tossed around like candy on the campaign trail . We support grand buildings and offices for the political reps as if they are kings and queens while many people live in the streets or one paycheck away for this form of life.

We have allowed wallstreet and assorted corporations to fund the political parties on both sides. We allow banks and credit cards to have become worse than loan sharks and they get away with this.

We give billions away to other countries each year and don't even take care of our own.

What the hell have we really got now? We had hope at one time , things were reasonable to a point but we dropped the ball and watched it bounce away.

This country is so divided that I don't see how we can ever get close to blending to reach a happy medium that everyone is included . I know nothing is ever perfect and everyone has to make adjustments and compromise but what we have now can only be defined as insane.

I really doubt after the 8 years of the last admin this can now be repaired , it is broken to the point of no return and bailing out the too big to fail was the wrong way to go about this.

I don't believe for a second that we will protect this country form so called terrorist attacks by sending our people to the believed but not proven source of past terrorist attacks and pull this off by bombing and shooting them we need to protect our own borders and ports which can be done without death as the outcome. I believe 9/11 could have been prevented if we had done just that.

Of course that is if you buy the official story which I don't , yet there was a reason it happened so we then allowed our own government or corporations to piss someone off.

We need to end this global economy idea and do our own work here and let other countries do theirs and have fair trade not slave trade.

I think about this all the time and I don't see any way out of this the way our government is going about it.

Most of the illness we see must come from the years and decades of toxic crap we have pumped into just about everything , these are on the rise.

People somehow seem to think the resources are endless when they are not. We have used them the wrong way and mixed them the wrong way and transformed to planet into something we thought it should be with our cars and huge buildings , speaking of buildings , remember not all that long ago all the talk about sick buildings because of all the chemicals used to build them? We have covered the landscape with black top and remover trees and grass and carved out mountains to do so.

We don't have any of the right answers , we have no answers at all other than to feel we can keep going like this and make everything green. When will that be , one thousand years from now.

This is the earth and people and all the animals and this is what we all should focus on , not wars and death and corporations or base everything on money.

[debbierlus]

1. Kick

[stopbush]

50. I wonder how this post would be greeted were it being read by people set to die

in concentration camps or Soviet gulags. I wonder how it would be greeted by warring families during our own Civil War. I wonder how it would be greeted by the average American who lived through the depression.

Sorry, but the fact that we are able to discuss things like marginal tax rates or voting in the next election cycle as possible solutions to our problems doesn't seem to rise to the level of worrying whether we're all going to be speaking German, or whether our homes and families are on the brink of being incinerated in an all-out nuclear war.

You need not even go that far into the past - check out the starvation in Africa, today.

The OP sounds to me like people complaining that the world is so stacked against them that they can only afford a Lexus, and that the sorry fact is that a Bentley isn't in their future nor that of their children.

The conceits and sense of entitlement we hold about ourselves living in the first world are a bigger blight on the world than are the real miseries of those eking out an existence in the third world.

[theFrankFactor]

51. Insidious Lowered Expectations

I understand what you're saying but I think its possible that just voting isn't enough and being glad we aren't in Somalia is wonderful but for some it's not enough. Americans starve, are homeless, are denied the care they need, are imprisoned for minor infractions, executed by the state... we ca do better. But not by just voting.

We have to educate, inform and participate more. I want to see us reform the way campaigns are run for starters, to reform the lobbyist and corporate bribery of representatives, restore privacy... the list is really quite long. As it is we have no REAL representation. Only a farce, the appearance of representation in a good cop, bad cop game that abuses the trust of well meaning citizens.

[blues90]

54. Perhaps you should read my OP a bit better .

Where did I say anything that led you to that reponse? Or was it what I left out . I was making one point here. Not that americans are better than anyone else.

Go ahead and post your own topic and you will find to cover every aspect would require volumes.

[stopbush]

55. Oh, I read your OP.

What do we have left? We have an intelligent president and a majority on Congress that is working as hard as they can to bring real change to this country, that's what we have left. We have more "left" right now than we've had in the past 30 years.

Your post comes off like the whining of the privileged. It's not only defeatist, it's short-sighted.

Some of us have been in the trenches for over 30 years, and we're feeling pretty good about what we have left to look forward to. Our problems weren't created overnight and they're not going to be fixed overnight. But our country is hardly at rock bottom as it has been in the past.

Did you ever stop to think that the reason things look so bad is because the country is sobering up after decades of drinking itself into a stupor?

Get over your conspiracy bent and deal with the reality of the situation, which is not nearly the abyss you seem to be staring into.

[blues90]

58. First off I am so far from privileged that your head would spin.

Go on your attack mode. No damn kidding our problems were not created overnight . If you choose to put all your faith in this or any government be my guest.

Go to DC , call and email and write your reps and get that form letter that means no one damn thing , I have plenty of them .

I you actually believe that both parties are not in the corporate pockets and the left is actually working for your best interests then you are the one looking into the abyss.

Not at rock bottom , just what year are you comparing now too? never mind I don't want to know . Maybe you are not at rock bottom but I'll bet there are many who are who would not see things your way.

Is this how you talk to everyone "Get over your conspiracy bent and deal with the reality of the situation, which is not nearly the abyss you seem to be staring into"

Let me tell you , you can save your crap down talking big shot garbage for someone you control and it's not me. I didn't need to sober up , I saw this same crap decades ago , count the amount of total people who voted , it's still basically the same as it was decades ago so just who has woken up ?

The education system is in the toilet, we are still in wars and Obama does not have enough time in 8 year to turn this around let alone bring back jobs. Without jobs we have NOTHING.

30 years ago I could get a job without a credit rating and fill out an ap based on my years of experience . Now you can't even find one and experience means nothing.

So how are we better off now in that repect? We have allowed most jobs to be shipped away and just wht is being done about that , some promise of perhaps a green job ?

In 1960 when I was in Jr high school GM came by as we had science expo's and at that time GM had a working model of a solar powered car that worked and I saw it first hand and we were told this would be the cars we would have in 10 years or less . where are they?

We are no better off , all we have now is smaller more powerfull weapons and more countries armed with nukes and more oil wells and now they killed the electric car and the auto companies have done nothing until forced to . People have been ripped off with decades of robbing health ins companies money that's gone for ever.

What the hell is better now, we have computers and cell phones and FISA? 30 % interest rates on credit cards and wars that were done illegally . More homeless people than anyone can keep track of. Tent cities , there is no end to the horror. If we cannot help our own country how are we to help other countries ?

[hfojvt]

69. "there is no end to the horror"

yes, you can always find some if you look for it, and you can magnify and imagine that it is much bigger and much more universal than it really is. And many DUers seem to get a perverse amount of satisfaction from their daily morose of doom and gloom. If you read some DUers as your source of reality, you'd think the unemployment rate was 85% instead of 15% and same with the poverty rate. The poverty rate in the US must be, from your posts here about 95%, or is that an underestimate. Is it really 99.44%?

Same with the cancer rate too. 99.44% of us really have cancer because of all of the toxins in the environment. Mark your words, in less than 80 years 99% of all DUers will be dead. It's inevitable. We are all dooooooommmmmmmeeeeddd!!!!!

These posts would be better with a theme song. This one goes out to all the DU jeremiads
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qgcy-V6YIuI

[blues90]

70. It does not take much of an effort to see horror .

I don't magnify it or imagine it. I just don't ignore it. Un-employment is closer to 17% but add into that under employment , part time instead of full time work and lower than living wage jobs and you find things are not looking very well.

You must be doing well to think like that. And I'm called the whiner , no it's people like you who come along with comments like these who do the whinning simply because the truth threatens you.

[hfojvt]

72. so you are not magnifying it?

"under-employment, part time instead of full time work, and lower than living wage jobs"

That looks like pretty clear magnification to me. For one thing, the first two are already included in the higher unemployment rate.

I bet there are lots of positives out there too, that you don't want to see. I know two people who have recently lost jobs. One is a co-worker, and not only is he getting unemployment for the next 26 weeks or more, he still has his part-time job. The other one is my supervisor's wife. She also is collecting unemployment, and her husband still has a job AND he is retired military so they have that income. But you would look at that and just see two lost jobs and total misery and privation for those unemployed.

So, I don't really think it's TRUTH if you wanna magnify the troubles that we face as if it is all terrible, awful, horrible, no good and very bad even in Australia.
http://www.amazon.com/Alexander-Terrible-Horrible-Good-Very/dp/0689711735

[blues90]

73. Where did I saw ALL was terrible ?

You focus in on that one point only and make it your issue.

I stated many things in my OP yet here you climb in and zoom in on all is woah is me and terrible.

I was not going by oh well two jobs were lost but they found other work. These are you own personal experiences.

I suppose 17% is ok with you unless you become one of them then you tune might change.

Look I said what I see and stand by it no matter how you see it or take it. That's your view not mine.

I can sight many people I know who are not doing very well but I did not intend to make this my personal life issue so I suppose looking from your point of view the people I know are losers and are not trying hard enough , they just all gave up at the start and hung their heads down and gave up.


You know it does depend on where you live and what's available in each city and each state.

My post really must bug the hell out of you otherwise you would passed it by. Must be too close to the bone for you .

[Cetacea]

76. I am surprised that your thread actually got so many recommends.

Good !!!

[dysfunctional press]

2. it's pretty obvious that the top marginal tax rate needs to be raised appreciably.

we've been living on borrowed money ever since ronbo raygun slashed it- and the increased revenues never really materialized anywhere near the levels promised, and not enough to sustain our 'way of life'. and the 'wealth gap' as become a chasm, as the middle class has been decimated.

by whatever means necessary- we are in dire need of a re-distribution of wealth, in order to restore stability to our society.

[Yuugal]

3. K&R

[donheld]

4. Excellent rant!

[cliffordu]

5. K&R!!!

Great post.

Go for a bicycle ride.

[anonymous171]

6. We have our votes. Do not give them out so carelessly this time.

[Hannah Bell]

7. the candidates are mostly pre-selected by the ptb, so i'm not sure how valuable our votes are.

i wasn't careless, maybe you were.

[mother earth]

16. If you watch "Uncounted" you might be inclined to think otherwise.

[Kansas Wyatt]

8. I still think we should pull a Guillotine up to the steps of the Capital.

And instead of donating to Corporate Politicians, we should set up a fund to man protests around it, which would provide jobs instead of going into the Corporate Politician's pockets.

'Power perceived, is power achieved.'

It sends a clear message that the END has arrived and it is time for them to do the jobs they swore to do.

[Hannah Bell]

9. That would be ideal. The independent funding for something different, I mean.

If there were a way to do it without someone absconding with the money, running afoul of our new "anti-terrorism" laws, or bogging down in division.

I'm convinced that nothing will change outside of a serious attempt to organize people outside established channels.

& i believe a simulcra of just that is what the palin wing of the pubs will be selling next time around.

totally cynically, & controlled by the ptb, but lots of people will be so fed up by then, they'll buy it.

and it's going to end badly.

[sendero]

44. simulAcra....

...

[earth mom]

10. I think about it all a lot too and have come round to thinking that it's the beginning of the end.

I've long suspected that the powers that be are fixing it all to create a reason to implement the North American Union and the Amero.

Which means that the U.S, Canada and Mexico will be no more.

Which means no more U.S. Constitution, no more Bill of Rights, no more freedom-if the people of this country were ever free in the first place that is.

Even if the North American Union and the Amero is not the plan, then what the hell is there for the majority of the people anymore?

Because there is just no damn way this country can continue and prosper with no manufacturing, no living wage jobs, mandated health insurance that will cost a huge percentage of everyone's wages and endless wars and bankster bailouts that will indebt all of us for the rest of our lives.

[Double T]

11. A Revolution is the only answer, like it or not!

Great reality check post OP! Until WE face this harsh reality of our future, nothing will get done.

[tomp]

12. i think this is a generally excellent statement of position...

...except i disagree on "ending" global economy. it is impossible to eliminate our dependence on the rest of the world. while i agree with a shift to ensuring the stability of economies locally, we will never get away from our need to ensure the stability of world economy, nor should we. the point is to end exploitation and maximize cooperation.

[Deja Q]

25. Nor can the rest of the world eliminate their dependence on the US

"global economy". No exceptions. Improve lives for all. Restore humanity.

[truedelphi]

26. No, we should not "end global economy." Many people

Have found themselves a worthwhile niche in brokering products made in China, for companies here. Et cetera.

But if Obama had not allowed for all of Main Street's money to be handed over to the upper one percent of the banksters, who are not passing any of it around, then middle class America would have had a chance.

For instance, right now the money given to the banksters via outright gifts, loans and the guarantees total over 11 trillion bucks. Eleven trillion!

How much did Obama throw at the green job field of "bullet trains"? A total of nine billion bucks. That would get you MAYBE one train line from Sacramento to San Francisco.

Imagine if he had the imagination to say - no more guarantees for banks unless they put together a huge bullet train network and fund it, minimum project 200 Billion bucks.

Imagine how much work that would have provided. And it could have been divied up so that EVERY STATE in the Union saw multiple benefits, not only the Wall St area.

[bvar22]

32. Exactly.

But you WILL have to use your imagination because we won't see any "CHANGE" from THIS White House.


The DLC New Team
Pro-LABOR Democrats Need NOT Apply

(Screen Capped from the DLC Website)

[blues90]

38. "the point is to end exploitation and maximize cooperation. "

I completely agree with this statement. In reality , to actually make this work would require all the people from all over the globe to realize it is the greed of their leaders and corporate interests that hold people back.
There are many more citizens than leaders and what we may fear now if we did refuse to allow their games to go on as they have been has resulted in generations of fear which results in the fear to speak out and some threat of losing everything.

Well we have reached the point of losing everything or at least damn close to it, so we need to balance this fear with the actual risk needed to be taken or we are stuck right where they want us.

The idea of a global economy as it is framed now is not fair for anyone from any country simply because it is not fair trade but a way of cutting labor forcing all of us to complete until we are all at the bottom . We don't compete willingly and we don't compete for an equal wage , we are forced to compete to see how inexpensively we can make something and how little we can live on . With that we all lose.

[pitohui]

13. well capitalism can't work in the real world and so it doesn't work for many people

the dream of humanity was to create labor saving devices, automation, computers and so on to take the burden of work off human shoulders

unfortunately that only works well FOR ALL if we accept that the humans who no longer have any work to do, still have to have a way to access health care and a decent standard of living -- the median human IQ is i suppose around 100, which means that there will always be a significant population of humans who are simply not capable of doing a job that isn't physical but instead requires brains -- if you deal w. people who have an IQ around 100 a lot, it's just frustrating, it might be "average" but "average" just isn't good enough for modern society and modern jobs -- i'm sure it was fine in a society where most people did hard labor/farming for work but our brains haven't evolved to meet the new reality


should we give those people make work a la "the marching morons" or should we just cut to the chase and have some guaranteed income/health care etc. available to all?

yah, there will always be bitter people who yell "well i work and they don't work" but what is THEIR solution?

work has become a privilege available to the few...it will increasingly become a privilege available only to the few

i predict w.in a few years to be a greeter at walmart you'll have to "tip out" somebody

80 percent of jobs are ALREADY found thru "referrals" -- the trading of favors and/or in some cases cold hard cash

if you want a job, what are you willing to give the dude who hired you in return? a blowjob just isn't enough any more

[blues90]

15. Just on one of your points.

All of the technology has advanced so fast that when you consider as people age even though they had good skills to do many jobs such as a carpenter which requires manual skills as well as intelligence and they made a good living yet as time went on it was no longer a hammer and saws and drills and a tool belt it is now an assortment of high tech tools that are expensive so where does that leave the capable carpenter now. It's the same with auto repair.

Now many who could do a certain job are pushed out if they can't keep up with the rapidly changing times.

Many jobs require computor skills beyond the average user so since there is no on the job training they are left to either pay for education or be left behind. Yet right behind them are highschool grads with these skills willing to work for less and out goes to long time loyal worker.

Now any job has, what is it a 6 person to one job ratio . I read about a factory that makes washing machines had 100,000 applicants within a few days for 90 jobs, it paid $11.30 per hour with benefits.

We never saved anything and the worst part is people who had well developed skills are now tossed to the side like garbage .

Years ago things did not change so fast , a certain skill could get a few generations through life and a good life and a livable one.

I have skills but with the many interviews I went to I did find they sort by age and I tested out better than most others but they are not going to choose a 61 year old over a 21 year old even at the same wage.

You are right , the way things are playing out people will be killing another to get a chance at the greeter job.

People cannot be treated as obsolete equipment yet they are .

We have a trickle down economy still in play , all the money is in the hands of the top and held there and gambled with.

What are people do to now just go off and die now. That seems to tbe the answer in a hidden message.

[pitohui]

43. blues90 i refuse to just shuffle off and die

i will not tell you how many years i have been unemployable because i don't think it would help your state of mind but it has been many

if we have no skills that society can or wants to use then we have no choice but to hustle -- most of the folk in the new orleans area who are unemployable -- born unemployable -- pick up a gun, be it in the army or be it to join the drug trade, what else are they to do? they are not going to just lay down and say "oh well society has decided i'm useless i'll lay down and die"

nor will i just lay down and die

people who keep "paying for the education" are forever in debt for that hoax...it is no different than tipping out the dude who hires you at walmart except actually it's more costly to buy an education and "hope" it gets you a job than to simply tip out the dude who is hiring

people will not just go off and die, plenty will "buy" jobs, others will pick up guns

i'll give another example -- in the 80s a stripper earned $300 a night in new orleans just to take off her clothes and didn't have to be a whore, now strippers have to tip out everyone in sight, the only people who make money are the "features" and the bosses (and a feature has to be a whore/porn star, she can't just be a dancer) -- everyone's making $$$$ except the worker -- and that's just one example of how a job that requires no skill that used to pay good money now pays barely a living wage unless you want to forget about keeping yourself safe...

[blues90]

45. I completely understand what you are saying

You get no argument from me. I spent years playing guitar in blues bands for just enough to eat and have a place to sleep and buy strings.

I can't say I now have anything to hustle left.

I have no idea how old you are or what you have been through and it's none of my business . I'm not sure how you get by now.

I do know people will do what they have to to survive , I know a few.

My skills are still usefull if there were jobs out there that required them. I have made a little money doing my work for others but that's become nothing as of late.

I am not here to judge anyone , I only judge myself. I was lucky in some respects , items I built years ago to sell never sold but did a few years back , mainly guitars and amplifiers and furnature , these were attempts many years ago to break into a business of my own.

[pundaint]

14. All we have left is the VOTE

And if we don't use it to fire every person in congress we are idiots.

[blues90]

17. That's true yet it won't happen that way .

The politicians pick members from within their big club to run and back them. Now since it costs a fortune to run a campaign that leaves many good ones out.

No one should be able to buy an election yet this is just wht they do. It's a runaway train.

[Greyhound]

19. Your vote is simply the device used to maintain the illusion of choice.

"We" don't get a say in who will be among the choices, the finalists in this Kabuki are pre-screened so that the eventual winner is largely irrelevant.

The two things we've forgotten as a nation, we have the power and we are the government.

[edc]

29. Maybe we should stop voting.

After the last election it became fairly clear to me that voting exists to validate the status quo, not to change anything. If the overwhelming majority refused to vote and made it plain why they did not, their actions could not be construed as apathy but activism. The result would be to expose the true face of the ruling class, striped of its claim to popular sovereignty. At least then we could digest this tyranny pure and unalloyed by its claim of legitimacy.

[sixmile]

18. KICKED for asking a great question

[CLANG]

20. I'm kicking and recomending!

But just fess up, blues90, you where half in the bag when you posted that, right? :toast:

[blues90]

23. I wish I was .

[CLANG]

24. I hear ya!

[butterfly77]

21. I agree with just about everything..

and to top it off the people who are causing all of the illnesses with their substandard,toxic products don't want us to have healthcare or anything else to heal ourselves.

The resources could be endless, if some of the stupid,greedy,selfish uninformed could see that the people who are causing all of the problems are some of these so called leaders who never leave government and who are living in the past when the world has changed and the people are not naive as they think..

When you look at Joe Wilson,Grassley,Inhofe,Shelby and many more you can see that these people don't give a damn about the country they just care about their own pockets.

[lastinline]

22. Chris Hedges Would Agree - His New Book Empire Of Illusions

Spells out your case with a broader and more encompassing swath.

Discussed here at DU:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7017722

Listen to the embedded interview to get started on the thesis:

http://ia301506.us.archive.org/1/items/DailyDigest-072009/2009_07_20_hedges.mp3

Then partake of Chris's latest speech at the Universal Life church this October:

http://essentialdissent.blogspot.com/2009_10_01_archive.html

Finally satisfy ones curiosity at Amazon.com:

http://www.amazon.com/Empire-Illusion-Literacy-Triumph-Spectacle/dp/1568584377

This will not be easy fare for most Dems since Chris makes the case that both parties have sold out to the corporate oligarchs.

The only path forward is a total reshaping of one or both parties.

[placton]

27. My vote?

Outside of the Dem primaries, she is staying home to wash her hair.

[bkozumplik]

28. well, on the bright side, this is happening somewhat slowly

That's all I could come up with for bright sides. I agree with your post.

The most immediate thing coming that I am dreading is the return of the republicans to power. Its not a matter of "if" its a matter of "when". In a 2 party system they will always be back for more, and in our recent history the cycle of swings is short. We might get 8 years, but then I imagine the repubs will be back in power. It'd be a miracle to get more. They will be angrier and bolder next time too, and instead of nibbles, it will be greedy bites, into every basic right or mediocre shred of democracy that exists here.

I'll be curious to see how this period goes down in history. One thing for sure is that real Representative democracy (if thats what we have) has no chance at all against embedded corporate interests, and since thats not going to change any time soon, then we will see corporate America's bidding done for the foreseeable future, and no real progress will be allowed to occur. I imagine that will be noted in the history books, and this will be known as a corrupt era. The country will survive in some form, but there's really no going back to what we used to be, thats gone forever now. I think there's only what we can build moving forward. If only more Americans read about history, we could have a public discussion about where we are going, and who we will be in the future, but those discussions don't work in this country. We always hearken back to mythical pasts.

[democrank]

30. Thanks for posting this, blues90.

Again.....No change, no check. No change, no vote.

[winyanstaz]

31. K & R...excellent post....

This is what I have been trying to say on another thread as well.
The time for abusing this planet is over.
We will all die with the planet if we dont change our ways and change them now.
End these wars, take care of our own and each other.

[snagglepuss]

33. K & R

[Greyhound]

34. Debt, lots and lots of debt. n/t

[maxpower]

35. I wish I could rec this 1,000 times

I couldn't have said it better myself. You have succinctly listed seemingly insurmountable odds against us.



Peace,
Max

[quakerboy]

36. I guess its time for the

zombie apocalypse. I see no other reasonable option.

[salib]

37. Pretty depressing

Is despair all "we really got left"?

In defense of my comment read from the original post:
- "I don't see jobs coming back anytime soon or even a description of just what they might be"
- "What the hell have we really got now? We had hope at one time , things were reasonable to a point but we dropped the ball and watched it bounce away."
- "This country is so divided that I don't see how we can ever get close to blending to reach a happy medium that everyone is included."
- "I really doubt after the 8 years of the last admin this can now be repaired"
- "I think about this all the time and I don't see any way out of this the way our government is going about it."
- "We don't have any of the right answers"

So, we are jobless and have little else, everyone is against us and each other, there is no repairing what has been done, one can only obsess about it and there is no way out because "our government" won't get it done, and we do not have the right answers anyway.

Go it? No? Not obvious enough for y'all?

This is the voice of the powerless, the listless, the slave, the victim, the used, the abused, the taken.

We on the left CANNOT be that. Give up the self-righteous, self-defeating, self-debasing, and self-rationalization. GIVE IT UP!

Stand up. Dust yourself off. Think a bit (a little more positively please). And get back to work.

Failure is not an option. This is a critical period in history. It will not be made better without incredible sacrifice. However, the alternative is not acceptable. Failure is not an option.

Now, quit this easy route to pathos, and let's work on getting done what we have to.

Progress though history has be nothing short of unbelievable. We have setbacks, and thus we work harder. This place need not descend into despair and inaction.

OK?

[blues90]

40. I'm not saying quit.

I am saying this is where we are and just a few reasons why.

Certainly we have had set backs through our short history , but with each set back it does become clear through each one we lose more and never get it back.

We cannot depend on reps in a government who do the bidding of corporations and these are on both sides. This is how we got here.

We sacrifice for their corporate interests not for our own interests.

This is why I say we don't have the answers refering to the people. The corporations and the political machine have their answers and that is to us the people they are supposed to work for ,for their own gain.

They set the goals and the price and we pay it.

When the people realize we are in control and take control then we retain what we progress in.

So lets say a rep takes a seat on a set of campaign promises yet turns around and is only concerned about keeping their seat then no more , they are tossed out just like if you or I got a job and said this is what I can and will do knowing we could not do it we are out. We put senators in for 6 year terms and they get enough backing and lobby funding to buy another 6 years.

It's going to take the people to co-operate to affect change and keep that change in there for good.

We seem to get the boulder up the hill just a bit and another election comes along where a year or even two of a senators term is spent on campaign trails then we watch the boulder roll right over us .

People know what the right thing and the wrong things are. Trouble is the politicians have to look busy so they come up with change for things that works just fine by removing them rather than fine tuning them.

[salib]

47. You said there is little or nothing we can do about it

Again, I am not reading something "in to" your post. It is what you said:

- "I don't see jobs coming back anytime soon or even a description of just what they might be"
- "What the hell have we really got now? We had hope at one time , things were reasonable to a point but we dropped the ball and watched it bounce away."
- "This country is so divided that I don't see how we can ever get close to blending to reach a happy medium that everyone is included."
- "I really doubt after the 8 years of the last admin this can now be repaired"
- "I think about this all the time and I don't see any way out of this the way our government is going about it."
- "We don't have any of the right answers"

That is why I quoted so much in the first place.

Despair leads to powerlessness, and that leads to "quit"-ting.

All your post said was what could not be done and even that we do not have the "right answers."

This time:

- "We cannot depend on reps in a government who do the bidding of corporations and these are on both sides."
- "They set the goals and the price and we pay it. "
- "We seem to get the boulder up the hill just a bit and another election comes along where a year or even two of a senators term is spent on campaign trails then we watch the boulder roll right over us ."

On the "positive" side, I see:
- "It's going to take the people to co-operate to affect change and keep that change in there for good.
- "When the people realize we are in control and take control then we retain what we progress in."

However, again, according to your original post: "This country is so divided that I don't see how we can ever get close to blending to reach a happy medium that everyone is included."

These are the words of despair. Plain and simple.

It is too much, and I see it all over the place on DU recently. Giving up, despairing our powerlessness or angst over the insurmountable hill where we get run over again and again, is not acceptable. We are in this for humanity.

Again, failure is not an option.

Enough.

[blues90]

48. I have not said you read anything into my OP

All I am pointing out is the reality I see and many others might see.

You see them as words of depair or a reason to quit. I see them as words of reality we need to accept and face.

You can define them how ever you like but they still exist as our reality.

If we are in this for humanity , then we have failed big time already.

Wars are not humane, cutting jobs and bailing out wallstreet on some sort of sick faith they will do the right thing is far from humane it's insane.

This may rub you the wrong way and I see it does because you have stated you see too much of it on DU as of late.

I stated the reality and ways we can affect change. Not everything but what I said was not a contradiction.

OK , you feel it's giving up , what are your thoughts on the reality , all you have said so far is this.

"It is too much, and I see it all over the place on DU recently. Giving up, despairing our powerlessness or angst over the insurmountable hill where we get run over again and again, is not acceptable. We are in this for humanity.

Again, failure is not an option."

I get the sense that you feel we should rely and believe in our reps to turn this madness around and those who have already lost everything should just sit tight help is on the way.

I spent year protesting the damn Vietnam war and the gulf war and the attack on Iraq , not one of these were considered humane in my eyes . We had 70% of this country who supported attacking Iraq , where is the humanity in that . Our fine reps went along with this, why was that?

Killing people is never humane. Allowing corporations to buy and control our government is not right and allowing citizens of this or any country to suffer because of the all mighty dollar is far form humane. Putting our soldiers in the ME to say we are being protected and the soldiers are left to being sent over and over again or to die or dis-figured in not humane. This is the reality , if it were not then we have no problem.

[jwirr]

53. Yes, this despair is making me feel lost as if all my fellow protesters

have just left the room.

As I read here I started to think about our ancestors. They had a lot less than we do and they did not give up. If we just give up we are handing the victory to our enemies and they will own us.

We need to look at this another way - take politics out of the works because you are probably right about the hopelessness of that. What are we facing - a changing world - mostly because big business is screwing with it but there are natural causes as well - over population, global warming, oil depletion and others. It is time we recognize that the world of the future is not going to be the world of the past. We are in for a huge fight to survive. We must work together and we must start in our own backyards. Figure out what can be done in your corner of the world and find others to work on it with you - do the Obama thing and organize not only for political action but for community action.

[jpak]

39. Doom gloom and quavering violin music for the booo hoo hoo and sniff crowd

I have no respect or sympathy for this kind of defeatist bullshit.

none

[blues90]

41. I can see how one might see it that way

But that's not it. If you won't face what you see is wrong how can it be changed? That's all I'm saying . You certainly have the right to view it any way you like.

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[phasma ex machina]

56. Madame Defarge nods in agreement then goes back to her knitting. nt

[Blue_Tires]

46. ttt

[Stumbler]

49. What have we really got left? More than you think

First off, I'm a big fan of Thom Hartmann, and when I'm feeling down he picks me up. I think the key for those of us feeling disenfranchised is to organize and get active, which I know, is easier said than done. And sadly, I too have been guilty of doing nothing but complaining and feeling helpless, though I like to think I've been studying, but just haven't put much of it into use yet. When it comes to "wanting things to change," it's important to remember that political change doesn't come from above. Like a tree, change begins small and at the grassroots level. With hard, constant work, with plenty of care and nurturing, it can grow into something that can last hundreds or thousands of years.

With regards to our divided country, it's important to remember that ideology has trumped scientific data, truth, and common sense for a long time. Fortunately, I think the tide is turning, as the younger generation tends to be more liberal and logical than the older, dying-off one is. (Though many of the older folks have known what's right all along) Look at our history to see women's rights, to civil rights, and now even gay rights are gaining broad approval. I think this is a matter of 'time will tell.'

On the global economy, I'm not sure what we can do. But as for our domestic economy, there are easy answers. Adjust our trade tariffs, so cheap Chinese or Mexican labor doesn't undercut American labor. As for undocumented workers in our "homeland," go after the employers who hire them illegally; most immigrants come for jobs, so close that option, and many will stay or go home. And of course, repeal the Reagan tax cuts on the super-rich. No one needs $100 million to live on, let alone $1 billion. They'll get by well enough off $3 to $5 million. Then use that revenue for schools, health care, and yes job creation, even if it is make-work jobs for the time being.

As for corruption in Washington, I think the only solution is to eliminate corporate influence entirely. We'll be seeing what the Supreme Court says on this issue soon, but until then and even after they issue their verdict, we must insist on true campaign finance reform. As Thom points out, if $10 were taken out of every tax-payers annual taxes, we'd have over $1 billion a year to spend on our elections, without one dime coming from special interests, corporate PACs, etc. But we can't expect our "representatives" to voluntarily refuse those corporate handouts. We need to hammer them every day, every week, for months until we see the change we want. After all, that's how the corps do it. At the same time, we must demand the removal of all voting machines, in favor of paper ballots which are to be hand-counted in public, regardless of time constraints.

For any one of us to take on any of these tasks alone is daunting to say the least, but there is a chance. Indeed, great societal changes have never come about by a single individual; it takes hard work, dedication, and a commitment from many to organize for what we collectively believe in. It is possible, and I think that's the silver lining behind these menacing clouds: first we've got the internet, the single greatest organizational tool ever available at our disposal. With it, we're able to network, coordinate and take action. We've also got millions of unemployed countrymen feeling the same as you, who, if they can be reached and convinced, are able to lend their available free time to this cause. But before that, we've got to punch through this pessimistic, "nothing's changed" attitude we all feel at one time or another.

Think of this: a continuous, ever-present rally in D.C. and in front of our state capitols, with a unified message demanding corporate money be taken out of our elections system. (Start with just that, then move on to paper ballots) If each of us set aside a couple hours a day, one day a week, each and every week, we'd be able to mount such a continuous campaign. And if any of us could donate more time, even better. And even if we can't make it in person, we should get in the habit of calling and emailing our 3 representatives every day. That's the simplest first step we should all be taking, though I am guilty of only calling my reps occasionally. And according to Thom, faxing or snail mail your demands is even more effective.

[Doctor_J]

52. Problem is, we don't get to "insist" on anything

"we must insist on campaign finance reform".

Or what?

2/3 of us want universal health care. Instead Big Insurance got a lot more of working peoples' money.

Before we can face the ptb, we must face reality. Right now the reality is that we have no voice, and thus no power. The only people I see here with a clue are the ones with the guillotines in their posts.

[Stumbler]

59. "we have no voice, and thus no power"

I'm just curious, do you call and mail your reps, to tell them what you want? Many of my friends, and I'll admit I, have fallen into the trap of bitching about our lack of voice without even trying to contact our reps, and I get the feeling a lot of others are in the same boat. If you do, kudos. If not, why not try my suggestion before claiming all is hopeless and resulting to death-threats of elected officials? Powerful corporations can get away with that tactic, as they can buy the judge and jury that are trying them, but We the People aren't really obliged that convenience...

[blues90]

57. I will just comment on one point you made .

I agree with most of the rest you pointed out .

"Fortunately, I think the tide is turning, as the younger generation tends to be more liberal and logical than the older, dying-off one is. (Though many of the older folks have known what's right all along) Look at our history to see women's rights, to civil rights, and now even gay rights are gaining broad approval. I think this is a matter of 'time will tell."

I thought the same way in 65 when I was 16. Time did tell. The reality is all age groups need to get on the same page , we may be a bit closer now but still far from any goal post.

I never thought I would see another damn war after Vietnam but here we are. MLK was working for civil rights but go against the corporate game plan and someone takes you out. Women are still treated like second rate citizens and same sex marriage made some gain but crips this has been sort of an issue for well over 40 years and still they cannot get equal rights to even stand by their partner in death.

What I'm saying is we did see these issues long ago and 40 odd years later we really have not gained much because most people just f\don't give a damn until any issue affects them directly.

[Stumbler]

60. Well, I hear what you're saying..

..but I don't have as many years under my belt as you, so maybe I'm still a little more optimistic. It seems to be true that those who stand up to greed and corruption, or even stand up for equality often fall early. MLK, JFK, Wellstone... And while I'm normally a doom-and-gloom kind of person, after reading your OP tonite, I wanted to try offering something inspirational and motivating for a change. But maybe all our effort is for naught. Either way, try to hang in there, and have a good night.

[blues90]

61. Nothing wrong with offering inspiration

I hope your generation has better luck than mine did. I am not against nor is my intent to tell anyone they should not have hope especially when it's their future now much more than mine.

What I wrote is the reality I see and to look at it is far from easy.

The boomer generation at least a section of it which was not all that large lost faith in government and authority figures which was mainly brought about by the war.

Many of us were too idealistic and perhaps went about it the wrong way if you look back on it from todays standards.

It was our effort that counted and we were young at the time. Yet we could see how things were going and tried to bring people to become aware of it.

Watching the leaders who spoke out at the time murdered was quite a shock. Compare that if that happened now and you find hopes and dreams dashed in an instant. You then realize there are powers out there you never knew existed to that extent. ie , nothing is really what it appears to be.

Today is much more complicated ,it's a different world yet the powers that be still keep people in the dark to even a greater extent than during the 60's.

We still had the option to get a job and make a living , in that sense you who are young now have that added worry to deal with.

Take our failures and discard them and take our success and expand on them.

[kctim]

62. Thankfully

the woe is me, feel sorry for me, give me give me, mother Earth first mentality is shared only by a VERY small extreme minority.

[blues90]

63. hopefully the ones who view it as you do

Are even a smaller extreme minority.

[kctim]

64. They are the majority, sorry

else you wouldn't be feeling so bad for yourself and complaining how terrible everything is because it is not going the way you believe it should.

[blues90]

65. Yeah ok . The post was not about myself .

Do you have proof to offer that the ignorance you display holds the majority? I suppose the wars and the destruction of the earth is fine by you and all the killing is just the way of life.

What are you going to do create your own air and water and whistle past the grave yard?

[kctim]

67. Look around man

MOST, not some, people are doing ok, or better than ok.
MOST people make a living wage and in most cases, those struggling need to live within their wage.
MOST people are satisfied with their current healthcare.
MOST people, including President Obama, realize we are weathering the storm right now and that jobs will be coming back sooner rather than later.
MOST people still send their kids to school every morning.
MOST people, the vast majority in fact, hate war and are confident in President Obama's ability to handle and end our current wars.
MOST people have no problem with shopping at the big box stores and saving money.
MOST people are not worried about theis slave labor that seems to keep you awake at night.
MOST people believe politicians are out of touch with the people, but they don't give up.
MOST people do not live in the streets.
MOST people worry about their own pocketbook more than they envy those on wallstreet.
MOST people realize their loans and credit cards are of their own making.
MOST people don't even know we give billions to other countries and those who do would rather have lower taxes.
MOST people haven't given up hope, and rather than quit and give up, they still reach for it.
MOST people know we are so divided, but that is what happens when people try to force each other how to live their lives.
MOST people, President Obama included, are not afraid to fight terrorism wherever it needs to be fought.
MOST people know terrorists are assholes and there is no excuse for killing innocents.
MOST people worry more about being hit by a car than they do about toxic crap some nuts are able to find in EVERYTHING.
MOST people love driving their cars.
MOST people love working and living in their huge buildings.
MOST people realize wars and death are a reality that must be faced.
MOST people do not fear the evil corps as you do.
MOST people love their money.

And if that is not enough proof for you, then look out your window and tell me who you see more of: the people with hope who get up every day and work, or the people who have given up and do nothing but wallow around in their own self pity, telling everybody else how bad everything really is.

[blues90]

68. That's proof ? using the word MOST ?

That's your opinion not proof. I can say most is 51% .

[kctim]

71. You would be wrong and you know it

IF any of that was not the prevailing opinion, our world and our country would not be in the gloomy state you say it is.

As I said, the proof is right in front of your eyes, but, as with most progressives and conservatives, you refuse to see it because it does not support how you personally believe things are.

Face it man, the world may not be exactly as you would like, but it is NOT as shitty as you want or need it to be.

[blues90]

74. What a stupid statement

"Face it man, the world may not be exactly as you would like, but it is NOT as shitty as you want or need it to be."


I ask again where do get the impression I want it to be this way, let alone need it to be ? That's insane.

I pointed out facts that many others see. Some choose to ignore them and others don't , this is not an issue of right or wrong as you insist on making it into.

[kctim]

75. Because you and a few others

are seeing what is NOT there. It seems as if most of the things you rail against are issues with you because they are not going how you believe they should.

[LatteLibertine]

66. Problem is

most of the ruling class and very wealthy only care about power and money. Some are full blown sociopaths. I think George Carlin had it right about that. The people that could make a difference don't have the power to do so and likely never will.