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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 11:24 AM
Original message
Of drinking laws and legal ages.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/18/AR2007041802279.html">Drinking Age Paradox by George Will

Public policy often illustrates the law of unintended consequences. Society's complexity -- multiple variables with myriad connections -- often causes the consequences of a policy to be contrary to, and larger than, the intended ones. So, when assessing government actions, one should be receptive to counterintuitive ideas. One such is John McCardell's theory that a way to lower the incidence of illness, mayhem and death from alcohol abuse by young people is to lower the drinking age.

McCardell, 57, president emeritus of Middlebury College in Vermont and a professor of history there, says alcohol is and always will be "a reality in the lives of 18-, 19- and 20-year-olds." Studies indicate that the number of college students who drink is slightly smaller than it was 10 years ago, largely because of increased interest in healthful living. But in the majority who choose to drink, there have been increases of "binge drinking" and other excesses. Hospitalizations of 18- to 20-year-olds for alcohol poisoning have risen in those 10 years.

This, McCardell believes, is partly because the drinking age of 21 has moved drinking to settings away from parental instruction and supervision. Among college students, drinking has gone "off campus and underground," increasing risks while decreasing institutions' abilities to manage the risks.


The problem with drinking laws and DUI laws is that despite their characterization by the media as way tougher these days than in the past, they really are NOT all that tough. Some years back, one paper I read described new DUI laws in my state as "Draconian". No, road-side execution of a person found to be drunk at the scene of an accident would be Draconian, a mandatory 10-day jail sentence is NOT. But, I digress.

Teens get their hands on alcohol due to careless or conspiring adults. The clerk at the store knows the ID is fake, but sells to them anyway. The parent who knows the kids are pilfering their booze stocks, but thinks, "Kids will be kids" and/or "Well, I drank at his/her age and I turned out perfectly fine." The older college student who buys for his younger buddies. These people are seldom punished in any meaningful manner, so their is little incentive for them to stop.

You show me a law that sends an adult procurer to prison for five years, no parole; a law that REVOKES ABC licenses for five years on the first offense, and I will show you a law that reduces illegal drinking.

Colleges have also abdicated their responsibility by failing to severely punish students caught drinking, especially when that drinking has led to things like arson, vandalism, assault, rape and rioting. Keep it quiet is usually the rule of the day.

With that said, although I do not drink (and never have), I am not puritanical about the issue. I believe that the various ages of consent set by state and federal governments are absurd. This leads to variety of ages at which you can have sex, get married, smoke, drink, drive, vote and enlist in the military. Why are you considered mature enough to handle a highly addictive drug like nicotine and 18, but not alcohol until you are 21? Why are you mature to maneuver over a ton of metal filled with highly explosive fuel within feet of pedestrians at 16, but not mature enough to handle a 15 ounce firearm until you are 18, or purchase one unless you are 21? (Unless you are buying it from some one over the Internet, in which case you only need to be old enough to know how to use Mommy's credit card.)

I suggest we establish one age for ALL these activities once and for all.

That age, in my opinion, should be the age which the state may try you as an adult. (which is some states means you could drink, drive, smoke, etcetera, at age 12). If I can send you to death row at 15, then you should be able to drink at 15. If you can serve hard time at 17, you should be able to vote at 17. Anything else is not only unfair, but stupid.

Any age defining adulthood below 22 is arbitrary and usually based on custom or tradition. 22, in my opinion is when you should be considered an adult since it is the age at which you would normally would graduate from college. High School doesn't cut it, as any viewing of a Girls Gone Wild video proves.

Even 22 is a bit on the young side, but at least it has some rational justification. In the end, any age at which you can be condemned to death or serve hard time should be the universal age of adulthood.

http://www.thoughtcrimes.org/s9/index.php?/archives/1894-Of-drinking-laws-and-legal-ages.html
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Kelly Rupert Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 11:27 AM
Response to Original message
1. That age would be entirely arbitrary for those
who do not go to college. They would be working as adults for four years without being considered full legal persons. Moreover, it would require raising the enlistment age to 22. Would you also claim that you should be allowed to drive at 22, or would you keep the grading there?

If you're going to set one age of adulthood, I think 18 is reasonable.
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #1
8. It is just my suggestion on an age based on some rational
point of view. I am very much in favor of raising the enlistment age, since it is harder to scam a 22 year old, than an 18 year old. In my view, 30 would be even better. :).

The point I am trying to make is that the ages are arbitrary and make little sense. Any age is OK with me as long as it applies to ALL adult issues. If you choose 18, great, then don't come to me and tell me you want a 15 year-old tried as an adult, or that a 16 year-old should be allowed to drive. (And I am not referring to YOU in that sentence, but the government).

One age, all the perks and responsibilities.
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #1
9. I do, too
but the idea of lowering the drinking age below the driving age might be a good one.

I know when I got plastered at 13 and fell off my bicycle, there was no way I could kid myself that I rode better when I'd had a few. Plus, I was the only one with the road rash.
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #9
15. That, or as some people suggested
you can have a drinking license, or a drivers license, but not both.

Again, for me, all these age restrictions are silly when you can be tried as an adult at 14.
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Zensea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 11:30 AM
Response to Original message
2. if you're old enough to kill and vote, you're old enough to drink
Edited on Thu Apr-19-07 11:31 AM by Zensea
The drinking age was 18 when I was 18.
The problem isn't drinking, the problem is driving while drunk.
Europeans deal with this much better than Americans.

edit to add that it also just occurred to me that suggesting raising the age of these other things is more of enforcing the delayed adolescence of Americans. It's bad enough already.
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #2
7. Well, there is some problem with drinking
Since we have binge drinking in this country. I agree with you that Europeans have less problem with drinking, and we should investigate why.

As to "enforced adolescence" I see it as more time to mature.
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Gormy Cuss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. The binge drinking phenomenon grew with the reinstatement of higher minimum drinking age.
I'm also from the era when the legal drinking age was 18 in most states. Binge drinking by groups was rare in college (except at known 'party schools' or in some party-hearty frats and other student groups) and not very common among my working friends. The thrill was gone. Most students knew that they could buy a beer or two and get a buzz without breaking any laws. There was none of the "get it while you can" attitude, which seems to drive underage drinking binges. Of course, there was this mentality in underage drinkers but since they were living at home, most with parental supervision, there was less of it. Kids under 18 are still drinking, so raising the legal age didn't solve that problem either.

I used to believe that a single age of majority was correct, but I feel now that stepped access is not such a bad idea. The ages we have set now however are kooky. There is no rational reason to trust a 16 year old with solo driving while not trusting them to make informed decisions on drinking or smoking. If there were a training course similar to driver's ed and the kid passes, why not give them restricted access just as we do with driving in most states? If you're at a social gathering with your parents, they can decide if you are mature enough to have wine with dinner at 16, I think, just as having a 16 year old drive with a parent in the car is considered safer than having a group of teen peers in the car with a 16 year old driver.

I believe the majority age in most of Europe is 18. I guess we think American kids are too immature until they're 21.
:sarcasm:
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. The issue for me,
Edited on Thu Apr-19-07 02:46 PM by Kelvin Mace
(and I guess I was too subtle) was trying children as "adults". The reason we do this is because children are subject to different criminal penalties than adults. However, some crimes piss of the establishment so much, they wish to punish these kids even if they have to break there own laws to do it.

If I can be "tried as an adult" at 14, then I should be granted ALL adult privileges at 14.
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Gormy Cuss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. You have a valid point there, but each of the ages of majority should be re-examined.
At 14 you can also become a parent or even marry with parental consent, but don't try to buy a cigarette. As I said, the whole set of majority levels are screwy and most certainly subjecting a 14 year old to adult punishment is one of the kookier ones. I understand that it's allowed because trying under juvenile statutes limits the incarceration period but it seems that the fix should be addressing the juvenile laws rather than pretending that a young adolescent is an adult.
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Agreed
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Zensea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. Binge drinking is not specific to age though
More time to make excuses for behavior is what I would say regarding more time to mature.
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. From what I have seen of the phenomenon
on the six college campuses in my area, it is a fairly frequent occurrence when drinking is going on.
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aljones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 11:32 AM
Response to Original message
3. I personally believe that we consider too large a segment of the population children....
I personally believe that we consider too large a segment of the population children....In the course of the last few days, all I have heard is "the children at Virginia Tech". Obviously these were not children, these were adults, granted young adults, but adults none the less.

But I agree with you, there should be a set age for everything. One age across the board that separates childhood from adulthood.

aly
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. Ah, but here we are discussing
emotional maturity, aren't we?

Some people who occupy incredibly high offices in this land frequently behave childishly, but then I've met some incredibly mature 12 year-olds.

Personally, I still see college students in many ways as children. College is that last stage where we are still connected to our parents. It is once we leave college that MOST of us cut the final parental ties.
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Irreverend IX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 11:35 AM
Response to Original message
4. "Based on custom or tradition?"
People are perfectly capable of behaving as adults at age 15. The only thing that prevents them from doing so today is culture. There have been successful kings and generals aged 15 and younger. In past eras when living was much more hand-to-mouth and everyone had to pull their weight or starve, people grew up really fast.

That said, I think the optimal adulthood age would be 17. High school's mostly over at that point, and you might as well be an adult when you step out into the world. If any 17- or 18-year-olds end up getting in trouble or killing themselves through the abuse of adult privileges, that's just Darwin doing his job.

Adulthood at age 22 is absurd. There's no way someone should be stripped of rights and shielded from the consequences of their actions for that long.
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. When the average life expectancy was 35
yes, some people were kings at 15. Quite a few were mothers at 12, and that was considered normal. Today it is not.

Are you hankering back to these days?

The level of emotional maturity is very lacking in many, many teens. I know few 17 year-olds I would trust with a gun, alcohol, and even driving (myself included at that age).
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 02:49 PM
Response to Original message
14. nice find!
I used to work with "at risk youth". Please trust me when I say it is easier for an "at risk teen" to buy coke or crack then it is to buy alcohol.

:kick:R
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. I am sure you are right
and that is yet another problem in need of addressing. The trouble is, a lot of adults are less upset with alcohol abuse than drug abuse.
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. well it would be legal [i]for them[/i] to drink, but drugs is bad m'kay
:kick:
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. Not unless they are 21
:)

And drugs can be bad, as can alcohol and nicotine.
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-20-07 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. everything is bad
:)
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Threedifferentones Donating Member (820 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 03:56 PM
Response to Original message
19. The drinking age should be lower than the driving age
if it exists at all. Its ridiculous that we train people to drive BEFORE we train them to handle alcohol responsibly.

And aren't there plenty of people of all ages that do stupid things? Granted most people improve their decision making abilities as they age. But, saying that the age for "adulthood" should be set after HS and college graduation because students do so many dumb things is ridiculous, are there not plenty of people of any age that do stupid things? I am twenty years old, if the government tried to take away my legal rights for another two years I would consider it an act of tyranny and fight anyone who tried to enforce such a law with violence if necessary.

As has been said many times, 18 year olds have been expected to fight and die for their country, and should thus be entitled to all rights and privileges enjoyed by other citizens.
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. As I said earlier,
we have a chief executive who acts like a nine year-old.

There are exceptions to all rules, but, by and large, the human race gets more responsible as it ages from childhood to adulthood. The trick is the dividing line, and my view is that anyone who can be tried as an adult, should be invested with ALL adult perks. Our society needs to decide where that age is, and stop playing games.
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