Why I believe we need to actively engage the discussion of party direction that is occurring

[Go2Peace]

I think it is evident to most here that there is a division in thought on where we are as a party and what is important to achieve, and what is acceptable "not to achieve". People feel pretty strongly, which should not be a surprise here, since we are all pretty aware of the consequences and the serious issues that our country is dealing with.

There are some who seem to believe that we are weakened by this discussion, even to the point that we should try and put down those who express discontent, and actively fight against it. And there is an idea, sometimes voiced, sometimes not directly voiced, that those who are critical of our current direction and policies should not do so. Or alternatively, that they need to "see the light" and that they just need to be convinced that their concerns are not valid.

Well, the fact that we have division is definitely a real problem. But I am not sure how a democratic political organization can *not* expect it's members to express, and even attempt to influence, party direction and policy? Isn't it exactly because people at DU tend to be "good party Democrats", that we are going to see people outspoken when they feel the party, or members of the party, not moving in the best direction? And shouldn't we expect to see it on DU, especially given that there is a HUGE internal division in thought in this area.

I would argue that, Ultimately we MUST engage this discussion head on and WELCOME it, because the only alternative is to fracture, and we all know who will benefit from that.

I would also argue, that shouting over or trying silence those who are dissatisfied with the direction we are going actually HURTS the party. Instead of trying to "capture" DU and drive off dissent, shoulldn't we all attempt to back off, listen to each other, and engage while working to solve the issues.

There have been some that have gone way off the deep end, but despite the claims to the opposite, the majority of critical discussions are not attempts to belittle the party or leadership, but are rather over policy, tactics, and direction. And I hope the mods will continue to take a farely careful view when considering when to tombstone authors. But I will argue, that the majority of these kinds of discussions are not against the purpose of this site, but that instead we should embrace this discussion, because we really do *need* to find the answers and keep from dividing.

Unlike the Republican party, the Democratic party is full of people who believe in democratic principles. And dissent and pushing for change is all a part of the political process in a democratic society. Our party cannot work like the Republican party and make our members "fall in line" in the same way Republicans do, we have to appeal and work with each other. It just won't work the other way, our basic principles deny that kind of power. I believe we will only weaken our party if we attempt to employ it.

[anonymous171]

1. Some ideas are not reconcilable. No amount of "dialogue" can make DLCers right

Or make me think that any of their ideas should be taken seriously.

[Go2Peace]

2. I am not arguing that you should not express that, but that we need to be open to discussion

And actually my argument is against the idea that is going on here that criticism should not be tolerated. We have to listen to it as a party and we HAVE to change. The only alternative is to fracture.

[ProSense]

6. You don't want open discussion, you want nothing but opposition

Why are you so afraid of the fact that the President has support?

[Go2Peace]

8. Have your opinion Prosense, but please don't attempt to hijack the thread. You are one voice

and I strongly disagree with it.

[ProSense]

12. Hijack the thread?

Isn't this a thread about the benefits of discussion?

[Go2Peace]

17. Come on, this crap is part of the problem. Cut it out please.

[bobbolink]

24. I rest my case.

THIS is what happens all the time, because it is ALLOWED, and will continue to happen until reasonable people like yourself give up and leave.

This is just like the RW, as I said. Raise a ruckus until others give up, and the discussion dies.

[ProSense]

25. What crap? You seem to only want to have a discussion with people who agree with you. n/t

[DontTreadOnMe]

14. Support?

If true Healthcare Reform is not passed, this will be the END of Obama's term.

It looks to me that he has less than six months to get it done. And then he has jobs and the war to deal with next.
The American patience is wearing very thin. Obame needs to get SOMETHING done fast. Every day the clock is ticking.

[ProSense]

15. "If true Healthcare Reform is not passed, this will be the END of Obama career."

OK.

[bobbolink]

22. That's all so true, and why his policy ratings and the Dems ratings are going down.

Yet, if we talk about it, we just get the same old same old. "Give him a chance... it's only been (fill in the blank) months. You're just an impatient (fill in the blank)."

Then come the verbal attacks.

So, let 'em all lose in '10, and then MAYBE there will be some who will find the "patience" to listen.

[bobbolink]

13. Unfortunately, "fracture" has already happened, and will continue.

Many of us have given up with the tactics of the RW, and will no longer tolerate the bullying, regardless of what "side" it comes from.

[anonymous171]

32. What is wrong with fracturing? nt

[Go2Peace]

36. Because we all lose. We are a two party system. If Dems lost half their numbers Rep win

[anonymous171]

38. What's the point of electing democrats if they just act like republicans once they are in office?

I really don't see fracturing as a bad thing. Just look at the GOP. Despite being in the minority, they have managed to bring the legislative process to a screeching halt. But then again, I doubt whether progressives dems have the nerve to do something like that.

[Captain Hilts]

3. The term 'DLC'er conceals more than it explains. What about those who are centrist

on some issues, and liberal on others? Conservative on taxes, but liberal on Choice?

[Yuugal]

31. The DLC is about corporatism

The idea was if labor and management worked together, everyone would benefit and the reps would lose as the dems would make a few compromises to business and labor would stay strong. The dems would never lose again! Hoooray! Of course, in practice, it turned out all the pro-corporate stuff went through congress like shit through a goose, and labor got shafted bad by nafta and other corporate destruction of our middle and working classes.

Ever since then I've hated those people's guts for what they did to this country. Here is that scumbag Al From still at it again.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704107204574473793640804078.html

[CANDO]

41. On the current political spectrum...

a "centrist" is an Eisenhower/Nixon Republican. Those of us who feel we are on the left, are really the centrists who formed the Democratic base of FDR Democrats. There are no "leftists" to speak of anymore. And the mainstream "left" is always marginalized as the "far left" for the specific reason of propping up the corporate state. Many people call themselves "moderates" so as to not draw too much attention to themselves. They don't want to be seen as extreme. But nothing gets done through "moderation" except continuing the status quo. I'm really sick about where the Democratic majority hasn't taken us. What have they accomplished? In my mind the EFCA and health care reform were the cornerstones of showing the American people what we can get done for them. We've done neither.

[ProSense]

4. "I would also argue, that shouting over or trying silence those who are dissatisfied

with the direction we are going actually HURTS the party."

I would argue that you're creating a strawman, and that people who disagree with the direction of the party aren't necessarily helping.

For example, do the 14 Senators who oppose the climate change bill help the party?

"Unlike the Republican party, the Democratic party is full of people who believe in democratic principles."

Is Senator Webb's position the right one or is Holder's?

[Go2Peace]

7. I am not surprise you feel that way Prosense

[ProSense]

9. Feel what way?

Not all opposition to the party is progressive.

[Atticus]

39. And where did the OP say that everyone who disagrees is helping?

Talk about "strawmen"! The OP was trying to encourage meaningful discussion (look it up) and you trot out this nonsense? You were useful though; if only to serve as a bad example.

[Roosesvelte]

5. Good Post

Discussion of tactics and ideas is critical to evolve along with changing conditions and times.

[DontTreadOnMe]

11. I foresee a future 4 Party System in the US

The GOP is already deep into their splinter, with the Tea Party dividing away from Moderate Conservatives.

The next step we will see the Progressive Left move and splinter away from Centrist Democrats.

The problem with this scenario, is it gives more of a chance to an extremist Tea Party candidate to actually win in a close race.

But I don't see anything that can stop this emerging 4 Party division. The GOP is already going there, and I welcome that division.
But the Obama Administration is driving away the Progressive Base. Already Ralph Nader is announcing a run against Dodd in Connecticut. ( I am NOT a Nader supporter)
Expect to see more Green/Progressive candidates to run against Dems, or worse as the "fourth" party.

But I am getting ready to jump ship from the Dem Party. Not one more dollar to any Dem candidates from me until I see the pandering to the center stop.

I am running out of hope for change. And I am going to do something about... by not supporting the Democratic Party anymore.

[Luminous Animal]

18. I would welcome that.

[Go2Peace]

19. The danger is we don't have a parlamentory system, so if we fracture power goes to the Republicans

[bobbolink]

29. There are some who are now saying that is almost inevitable, and maybe HAS to happen.

Ed Schultz, Thom Hartmann have spoken to this.

The "left" is fresh out of capitulation.

[bobbolink]

28. I completely agree with you except for one thing.....

They aren't "pandering to the center".... the center has been moved far right.

This administration is Clinton on steroids.

Obama is more far right than Nixon ever dreamed of being... Nixon, our last liberal president.

:( x(

[FarCenter]

40. You need at least 8 parties

depending on whether one is liberal or conservative on:

- economic policies (pro or anti-business, but trade policy may subdivide these two positions)

- social issues, or

- foreign and defense policies (or maybe three -- isolationist, globalist soft power, versus neocon global superpower)

[bobbolink]

10. The problem is not the problem... its that so many people don't know how to "DISCUSS"

Its exactly like the RW tactics we have been enduring now for so many years.... if they can't counter an argument rationally, they resort to the same thing as the ugly RW.... attacks, denigration, name-calling.

CLUE.... that is NOT discussion, it does NOT reflect well on your Pres, your senator, etc., and does NOT reflect well on the party as a whole.

Unfortunately, it has become accepted on DU, and the admins have said they expect it, so.... that's all she wrote for rational discussion, because ugliness triumphs everytime.

[Go2Peace]

16. I can't disagree, that is a big problem. But why do they combat nastily? They don't want to hear all

voices. They want the half of the party to fall in line. And it won't work. Progressives are not "sheeple" for good or ill.

[bobbolink]

20. Because if they overcome us with nastiness, they win.

Look how many of the more kind and gentle people have already left.

of course, we are then told... "There will be more good people who join." So, its all OK, and the result is that it gets nastier and nastier as the aggressive people gain in numbers and gall.

[Go2Peace]

23. Maybe you are right

One of the primary antisocial posters is posting disingeniously even on this thread. I watched that poster last weekend sending out negative DK OPs literally every 15-20 minutes for hours on end, just trying to push their point and outpost others? I suppose it might be true and we might just all end up looking for someplace better moderated. But the mods only appear interested in moderating based on political viewpoint, not the damage people do to discourse?

[bobbolink]

27. Again, that is the standard RW tactic. Overwhelm others with nastiness until

the air is saturated, and all the oxygen is sucked out.

Yes, we are being gamed, and it is allowed.

[bobbolink]

21. Given that the Dems are not doing well nationally (which many of us predicted!)

its crucial that there BE a large discussion.

But, that ain't gonna happen on DU.

[Go2Peace]

26. Exactly, the Party needs to recognize the issue or we all lose.

DU is a place where, at least initially, a lot of party activists used to be.

[bobbolink]

30. Initially is the key. So many have been run off that the whole site is weakened,

:shrug:

[Yuugal]

33. Can we start a Progressive Underground?

Ya know, a place where people who are against wars for profit, for civil rights, gay rights, workers rights, the environment and keeping our jobs here can talk without the constant censorship from the mods and the DLC "moderates"? I posted maybe my fifth op in 5 yrs today and spent 90% of the thread defending my character for asking where is the beef? Not only that the mods must have deleted 3 or 4 of my posts today but everyone calling me a freeper and laughing at my poverty and disability......not a fucking thing. So we know which side the mods are on. This is a business like any other and I guess DU figures we aren't as good an investment as all those "centrists" that will take our place.

Someone posted a thread about Israel cutting off the water to the palestinians and would you believe they erased that thread too? Maybe AIPAC gives DU more money than us proles ever can. We need a home and I just don't feel welcome anymore.

[bobbolink]

34. We're not allowed to talk about that here.

:wtf:

I will say this... there have been people who have tried, and too often it dissovles in bickering.

We have been so saturated with the Rugged individualist crap, and so unschooled in how to listen to each other, that we have lost any sense of community.

:cry:

[Yuugal]

35. we are not allowed to talk about that here

wow, that says it all don't it?

[XemaSab]

37. I get the sense that both parties are struggling

We're less fractured than they are. :shrug: