The logic of the masses: the reps did a dumb thing in NY 23

[Yuugal]

The reality: it was a good move for the far right. They lost a seat they can easily get back in a year when they retake congress and the reps running everywhere will be further to the right because of what they did in NY23.

I remember when our state had a liberal line on election days. All the real dems had to kiss a little liberal ass to get on that 2nd line or the libs would put their own candidate up and the dlc guy would sometimes (not always) lose. Now, without that liberal alternative, the DLC dems can just ignore us because they know we have nowhere to go.

If we really want to pull our party left we need a liberal line in every state for us to vote on. Then we need to make sure we only vote that line. The DNC will get the hint real fast.

BTW, the reason I think we are going to lose congress is the bailouts. They did so much good for the economy that unemployment is now up to 10.2% and the rich are laughing all the way to the bank they just got bailed out..... with our kids futures. I voted based on Obama's promises and so did millions of young and first time voters. Most of them will probably never be back after seeing the corporate fellating mess our party really is.

We are still fighting 2 wars, healthcare looks to be a total disaster, and the nafta review and jobs we were promised......well, they don't even want to talk about those things because everyone knows its good for the market when they ship our jobs away and both partys favor their 401k's and their corporate owners interests a hell of alot more than any working stiff. My first presidential vote was 1984 and in all that time I haven't seen the dems do much for us progressives whether they were in power or not.

For the 20 and 30 somethings that got involved and actually believed all the lies Obama told: they are gone for good I fear.

When I used to see all the worshiper's picture threads of Obama and Michele looking so stately I was so proud at first. Now I just feel like the single corporate party that runs this country only gave us a black guy to show us they can make anyone sell out and demoralize us even further.

This whole thing is a 90's redux where the supposed dem runs as a lib and governs as a dlc-er, and while he is personally popular and will get re-elected.....his party dies another agonizing disaster on election day.

[Atman]

1. You lost me at "... when they retake congress."

Suck it all in. Suck in the Morning Joe flak, the Fox News delusions. Go for it. Get high on it. And get real.

Help, or STFU. Joining Fox and Joe and the corporate interests is NOT help.

.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Vincardog]

4. I don' feel "our" party is our party I think it has been infiltrated by corporate puppets and DLC

drones just as DU has. What can we do?

KEEP SPEAKING TRUTH TO POWER

[Gman]

6. infiltrated?

Infiltrated?? What kind of extreme liberal nirvana do you think "our" party is?

[Vincardog]

13. The kind of extreme liberal nirvana that is pledged to stand up for the Democratic platform

including the rights of working people and supporting a woman's control of her own body.

Call me crazy.

[Atman]

5. Piece of corporate shit? I worked on Owen's campaign, fer chrissake!

I did a LOT of work on it. I did much of his campaign material, and am quite proud of the results in an otherwise weak election cycle for the Dems.

What I'm saying is, people like you who are so willing to suck up to the MSM's propaganda machine, that go running into the streets yelling "THE SKY IS FALLING!" at your own party, instead of actually standing up to the liars in the media - you're complicit in helping them catapult the propaganda that the left is going to lose in 2010.

And now, the alert button -- no one, but no one, calls me a "corporate pos." Nothing could be further from the truth.

.

[Gman]

7. These are called "purists"

[Atman]

9. Pure bullshit!

WTF, huh? The more these crybabies keep believing the lies the MSM is spewing, the more likely for their lies to become reality -- because our side GIVES UP. Textbook. And this guy not only steps in it, he's wallowing in it.

.

[Yuugal]

8. Are you aware Owens was bragging he was to the right of the rep candidate?

I'm sure you are DLC-man. Kiss my ass. You people have jacked this party royally.

[Atman]

10. BWHAHAHA!

Let's have a beer at my office. I think you'd be shocked to find out where I work and what I do for a living. You know nothing about me, yet you speak with certainty about where I'm coming from. Oh, and while you're at it, you can google my posts about the DLC. I doubt they'd welcome me into their little club. I worked a RACE for a Democratic SEAT. We won it. Owens voted FOR HCR. What were our options, sir, elect the crazy extremist? Sheesh.

.

[Yuugal]

17. I'm NY24 so that would be easy.

The way I see it, its good Owens won, another dem seat in a place we weren't to win anyway is ok. Can't you see though that in a district that was exactly the opposite of NY23, ie: the dem is gonna win anyway, that it is better to have the most leftist candidate we can find? Exactly what kind of BS got DLCHillary our senate seat when we have gobs of great progressives who could have used that seat so much better?

BTW, it was you who started making assumptions about me because I'm to the left of you and so you felt the need to call me a freeper who has never done anything for our causes.

[Atman]

25. Uh...but this wasn't a district exactly the opposite of NY-23. It was NY-23.

I'm on the left, man. Way left. And my discussion points were about people catapulting the MSM's "Dems are gonna lose" meme. That's what I responded to. And was called a "corporate pos" for it.

BTW, I don't live in NY. So unless you wanna drive a bit, you ain't gettin' the a free beer out of this "pos" Democrat.

.

[Yuugal]

34. You seem to be having a hard time understanding my point:

The reps didn't lose anything in NY23. They will get the seat back next year and they got to send a firm message to their party leaders that the right WILL BE HEARD. All I'm saying is we need to do the same thing in strongly dem districts so that we never again end up with DLC scum in a district that deserves a real dem.

PS- I wouldn't drink with you anyway. The way you immediately attacked my life as a dem because I don't think our party is fulfilling it promises and wanted to talk about it on a supposedly "progressive" board tells me we got enough DLC right here to fight that I don't have to drive around looking for them.

[Atman]

47. The point you are missing is that the seat will be redistricted out of existence by then.

No one will win anything. There will be no seat to win.

Too bad you'll pass on the offer for a beer, though. I think you'd be surprised.

.

[Yuugal]

53. I wouldn't be surprised.

Being disabled, I know how people like you feel about people who are "different". If you can't even discuss strategy without personally attacking me, why would I want to meet you? But you can bet your last dollar that when someone attacks me, I never forget and I always try to get even.

[Atman]

55. Wow. Freakin' wow.

What the hell are you talking about? So now I'm attacking people because they are "different?"

Yuugal, I can discuss strategy until your ears bleed. When are you going to offer up something serious?

What is with this "personally attacking me" shit? Look back a few posts -- what is the only deleted post on this thread? The one in which you called me a pos for disagreeing with you!

I didn't/don't know anything about your disability; this is the first it's come up. So for you to use it as some sort of proof that people are against you is not only ridiculous, it's a gross insult to every other disabled person.

Until now we had a perfect blind discussion -- I didn't know your race, your eye color, the color of your teeth, whether you had bushy eyebrows or huge freckles or milky white skin and subtle breasts -- so what the fuck did YOU do in response? You said you know how "people like me" feel about "people like you."

At this point I'd surmise your disability is only a small part of your problem. Get some counseling.

.

[Yuugal]

57. listen asshole

you were the first reply to my op and attacked me first. You have been projecting ever since, because I had the nerve to hit back. Go back to your "office" under Al From's desk, ok?

[Atman]

58. Yes, life would be easier if people didn't disagree with you.

In polite circles, we don't call people with whom we disagree "corporate pieces of shit." We present our case and are prepared to defend it. You, obviously, were not so prepared. Instead, you threw down a disability as some sort of trump card. It got you -- how do the kids say it? -- pw3nd.

:)

.

[Yuugal]

60. You were reply one. So who insulted whom first?

If you cant even understand that, you are just wasting my time. The DLCer doth protest too much.

[Yuugal]

61. glad you think my disability funny enough to put a smiley near it

In polite circles, you debate the substance of what was said in your first reply instead of attacking the messenger. Go away now. If you even bothered to read the thread you would see I was discussing my situation with Gman. post 16 and 44?? Disability is part of that.

Listen kid, its easy to say pwned and think you are king, I hope life brings you every bit of what it has brought me.

[Atman]

62. You're cute when you're mad.

:)

.

[Yuugal]

63. and you're ugly when you are cruel

one day my class will rise up, I pray for that day to come every single day.

[Yuugal]

19. I'm in NY 24 so having a brew will be easy.

sigh

[MineralMan]

11. Uncalled for attacks. Someone disagrees with you.

That's called discussion. Name-calling isn't discussion.

[Yuugal]

20. Did you read his reply to my op?

I'd hardly call that discussion.

[Yuugal]

30. Should I alert you for calling me a freeper?

Nah, not my style.

[Atman]

32. Yeah, almost the same thing.

:eyes:

If we eliminated all the posts in which DUers were called "freepers," we'd have roughly the same number of posts as the Cave. That is -- virtually none.

.

[MineralMan]

12. You know, the nasty namecalling

belongs somewhere else, not on DU. Disagree, but do it in a decent way, please, OK?

[Yuugal]

21. When you call me a freeper

Get rdy to be cussed at.

[Bluenorthwest]

67. what a rude way of saying you don't agree

What it is the point of being like that? Post one on the thread a personal attack.

[Gman]

3. OK, so you want to pull a liberal version of NY-23?

Go extreme because that wins elections? That's a fine recipe for giving Congress back to the GOP next year. Is that what you want? And don't give a "we have to destroy the party to rebuild it" type answer. (p.s. notice my avatar. It's there for a reason here on DU.)

[Vincardog]

14. IS that the answer? Abandon our Democratic principals or the RepigLICKERs win? I do not think so.

Party does not trump policy. What good does it do to have the majority party if they are not enacting the POLICIES the MAJORITY of the people want?
Single payer?
Renegotiation of NAFTA CAFTA and the Whole Flat earth "Free the corporations to rape the world" trade agreements?
Ending the illegal occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan?
Closing GITMO?
Bringing the Cheney/bush crime syndicate to justice?


What about the POLICIES?

[Gman]

42. Democratic Principals???

Your list is Democratic Principals. I don't remember much, if anything you wrote that is in the platform adopted at the convention last year.

And even if it was, no one sees the platform as do or die issues. That is, those of us that are Democrats don't see them as do or die issues. They're more a wish list.

[Yuugal]

43. A wish list?

Man, this site has changed just so much. Good progressive posters banned and the party pom pom team doing to us exactly what beck and rush did to van jones. If those issues aren't important to dems anymore, why bother being a dem?

[Yuugal]

16. Why would I care what your avatar is?

I'm speaking my mind and the word Gman means authoritarian govt scum in my book. I didn't see any gmen show up when Newsday laid off my wife and then protested her unemployment, even though she worked there 18 yrs. Of course the state told us only the state or the employer can protest the payments and of course it wasn't the state. However they said they were powerless to do anything and since it was 2002 and the benefits were extended to 52 weeks at that point we lost over 20k.

Then my mortgage company calls in 2006 and says, " hey you have a 7.5% loan and we can get you 6% with no closing costs since the rates went down so much. We ended up signing a 40 yr 9.5 loan because the guy at closing handed us 500 pages and since he was our mortgage company we didn't think we'd get cheated. I mean, what bank would lend at 90% of income on a home right? Why would a bank knowingly give you a loan that would cause you to lose your house......unless they pumped up that free closing with 20k of costs, which they did. There used to be laws against stealing homes from the disabled, but of course laws only work when people feel like enforcing them, which they never do when it will benefit a poor person. We ended up losing our house after agency after agency of federal bench warmers who get all the best of everything decided they couldn't be bothered to do a damn thing for us.

When cash for clunkers came about, of course my Toyota minivan, which has never seen more than 15mpg, was rated 19 by the govt so that people like me who really could use a car that worked and was more efficient could go scratch while their well-to-do friends cashed in their Escalades for a Lexus and once again laughed at all us stupid poor people.

I've voted straight dem my whole fucking life. I was a shop steward for 10 years until I got disabled and I've never let my disability interfere with my efforts for real dems. The bare facts are we are being squeezed by rich and upper middle class scum our whole lives and they plan on doing it even worse to my kids.

I'll try to get back to your actual question about the voting strategy later, because I'm just to mad right now at not only being called a freeper but now you trying to threaten me on a message board with your name - status - power or whatever your MO is.

[Gman]

44. First off, Gman is a play on my first name

and has nothing to do with the government as some people think or even as the term is popularly known. It's what some friends used to call me.

Man, I'm sorry. You have been through hell and back and lived to tell about it. I too was laid off 7 years ago. Took my year's pay and pension cashed out. I was in my late 40's. I have a masters degree, and was an analyst. After hundreds of resumes later, I found absolutely nothing. The corps want someone half my age and at half the pay. I can't believe how little these kids will work for and thinking they've got it made. I've been doing contract work ever since. My age now is a huge factor. I'll never have what once was considered a good job again. My house went into foreclosure twice but I at least was able to negotiate out of it. I worked for a major Fortune 50 company when I got laid off and I was working in the corporation itself. I have been into the belly of the beast and it disgusts me to have seen just what the highest levels of these companies will do just to get their mega-bonuses while everyone else works their ass off and they take credit. Then you get laid off, they make their budget numbers (which are as fraudulent as the day is long) and their bonus is even bigger. I know corporations maybe even better than the a large majority of people here on DU as I've been into the belly of that beast.

So I'm sorry for what happened to you. As much as the desire and even justification is there to go after everything that is wrong all at one time, we can't do it. We must do these things incrementally. Get passed what we can get passed then work on improving it later. Like HCR. Even John Lennon recognized the need to resist going for everything and damn it all when he said, "If you go carrying pictures of Chairman Mao you're not gonna make it with anyone anyhow." Moderation and steady incrementalism to me is the way. Unfortunately, with this method, I probably won't live long enough to see it come to what we all want. So I'm thinking less about myself now and more about my kids and grandkids.

[Yuugal]

Can you understand my hatred of the rich and middle class?

You don't have to agree with it, but I secretly cheer when the tea baggers make trouble because govt IS out of control. They never do a god damn thing for us but when a 700 bill comes up to kill some more brown people in some shit hole desert I could care less about.....that bill shoots through in a week. Or was it 2 days? but 100 bill for medicare for all each year? Nah, cant afford it.

I call bullshit and I'm starting to dislike the dems even more than the repukes because at least they tell you they are gonna rape you and then they do. The dems act like they are the working class and poor's friends every two yrs in oct/nov. Then they tell us to fuck off for 2 more yrs. At 44 I'm tired of it and mad enough to not vote at all anymore and just start worrying about me. Heck, with all the corruption in our party selling out to every corporate hack that comes along, I just feel so betrayed and stupid I gave that liar money, hobbled the streets for him, and gave my all so I can be called a freeper here because I'm mad he is just another rich boy sellout.

Let the pom pom crew make us even madder. Pretty soon they won't have to worry about people like me at all. But when they come around next fall looking for a booty call again, I'm gonna slam the door in their face if they don't do something meaningful for the poor by then.

[mcablue]

15. Little known fact: Obama beat McCain in NY-23 by 5%

http://innovation.cq.com/atlas/district_08

[Yuugal]

23. It was our big chance, wasn't it?

To show the whole country the soundness of our progressive ideals and the un-sustainability of the opposition's views. How is that working out for us under Obama and our super DLC majority so far? We've got a population furious they don't have a job and as much as you guys all crowed that us going from 9.5% unemployment to 9.4% was the "turning point" last summer...... (HAHAHA all you progressives and Obama hater are losers! HAHAHAHA) .....oh wait its 10.2% now and the rich are even richer and the treasury is trillions poorer and noone I know can get a job. Heckuva job so far, Brownie.

[Atman]

27. Unemployment was above 13% when Bush was in office -- but they lied.

I, and many other DUers, pointed out right here that BushCo was using a different set of numbers to calculate unemployment under his watch. It was pretty much common knowledge, yet was NEVER mentioned in the mainstream media. Now that we have a Dem in the WH, suddenly the MSM is willing to go back to pointing out that "real unemployment," as measured the way it was BEFORE BushCo's fuzzy math, is actually around 17%. You're not doing a very good job of convincing me to buy whatever it is you're trying to sell. You sound far more right-wing than you're accusing Owens of being.

:shrug:

Catapult the GOP-media's meme, shit on your fellow Democrats. Yeah -- real progressive of you.

.

[Yuugal]

31. Fellow dems?

You mean all the ones who would never even consider single payer, the ones who hate on gays and unions, the ones who jumped at the chance to give the people who wrecked the economy trillions?

[Atman]

33. No, I don't mean them.

They need to be targeted whenever possible and practical. But not, imho, at the expense of giving away a Congressional seat to a REAL extremist Republican, conservative, libertarian, or whatever they're calling themselves these days.

.

[Yuugal]

35. But Owens bragged he was to the right of the rep running

So you worked for the rightwinger in the end, what football jersey he was wearing really don't matter to me. Sure, I'm glad the nutcase neocon didn't win but in a choice between a corporate conservative dem and a liberal rep, you'd vote for the dem? I'd probably stay home. I've never seen a liberal rep but I'd vote for them if there were any running against our usual assortment of DLC traitors like my personal asshat Arcuri in the 24th. Sure, he voted for HCR, but only after many of us told him we would personally campaign for that nice old farmer who ran against him last time(Hannah?) if he fucked us over. He started of by saying he was against the public option but you can break a DLC-ers will really quick once they realize you are onto their game.

Clinton and his merry band of business friendly idiots fooled us once and we got nafta and workfare amongst other disasters. If the DLC thinks they are going to sail through another 8 yrs of a popular pres and us losing seats in congress because we don't stand for anything except that Obama seems like a nice guy......well I'm not being fooled again.

Obama could have given GM their 20 bill or whatever it was and made stipulations about bringing jobs back but instead they got free money to offshore even more jobs. In everything hes done so far hes screwed up like that. The worshipers say hes just new and inexperienced(something they denied when Hillary pointed it out) but I now believe he is just another corporate sellout and since he started as a poverty profiteer(I notice the people in the south side of Chicago didn't get any richer but Obama sure did!) how am I supposed to believe he is going to be any different now given all the mistakes he has made so far?

The proof is in the pudding and when almost all of his appointments were DLC I knew we were screwed and its been going just like us "haters" have been saying it would go. Lots of great speeches just like Clinton while they do everything the "minority" wants.

[Odin2005]

18. LOL, the Pukes aren't going to re-take Congress.

[Yuugal]

22. Remember '93?

I do. Lots of confident DLC people telling us that by working with and for business interests it would grow our majority. Worked real well. Workfare, Nafta, and reps in charge for 12 yrs.

[Odin2005]

24. This isn't 1993.

The GOP is in terrible shape and the youth generation is firmly Democratic.

This is this, not something else.

[Yuugal]

36. the youth generation is firmly Democratic

Oh really? Lets see how that works out when they realize it didn't matter that they cared enough to vote because neither side seems to give a shit whether they get a job or not. They came out in droves because we promised them "change they could believe in". Since we haven't delivered any change at all and in fact are going to require young people to buy shit insurance and are keeping both wars going strong, we'll see how many of them rush to the polls to bother voting for the same guy who just boned their whole generation.

I agree that history never repeats, but as someone wise once said, it sure rhymes alot.

[Odin2005]

66. Ah, the Kucinichites are exdaggerating their numerical importance, I see.

Last I heard 88% or thereabouts of Democrats support Obama.

[Yuugal]

68. I always answer yes I support him

The last thing we need is for the other side to find out how divided we really are. I'm sure many people like me do the same thing. I don't want to see Obama go down in flames, I want him to do what he said he would do. Its been almost a year and hes done squat so far that counts. Keep in mind lots of people loved Clinton too in 94 as they gladly pulled the lever for 12 years of a rep house.

If this party is just about protecting Obama legacy and image, sure, we are doing fine. If the party and Obama were serious about the promises they made? Oh boy, are they in for a surprise next year. Maybe we don't lose the house, but we will lose alot of seats and in 2012 we will lose more even if Obama wins. (because people like him personally)

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

49. Too bad they don't vote in midterm elections

They think they only have to show up every four years.

[Atman]

28. Again, repeating Morning Joe and Fox propaganda points.

This is NOT 1993.

.

[Yuugal]

37. Who the fuck is Joe?

Is it the plumber guy? I don't watch much TV. Your only answer when I make a point is to call me a freeper. Thats all you got.

[Atman]

50. You don't watch DU much, either, I guess.

Don't give me that shit. How stupid do you think the rest of us are? Every day, every morning, a couple of dozen posts about "Joe" hit the DU discussion page. Even if you don't actually watch MSNBC's morning GOP offering, you cannot be a thousand-plus gold star DU poster and NOT know what I'm talking about when referencing Joe and Fox news in the same sentence. Nice try. Again -- not buying what you're selling.

.

[Yuugal]

52. Thanks, now I'm a liar too.

Except I honestly didn't know who the hell you were referring to. If he's a neocon, shouldn't he be on fox? I don't read threads about the MSM much because I can watch a Chevy commercial over and over for an hour and get about as much news as anyone in the MSM would provide. There is some irony in the fact you know so much about these people but accuse me of being the brainwashed neocon. Hmmmm. At least the name was familiar so I'm still slightly in touch with your world. Reminds me of the Maddow people or the check in for Malloy people. Sorry, I'm just not interested in what paid people think since they usually say what they are paid to say. Come to think of it, I watched Weiner totally blow away joe on DU in a video here. Guess that makes me a Joe disciple in your eyes. Pardon me for not noticing who the hell he was or why I should care what some corporate tv jerk thinks.

Your ignorance about post counts is interesting too. 90% of my posts consist of "K&R nt" or "Done nt" for polls. I've only ever started maybe 5 threads in 5 years and one of them was Pat Robinson's pancake recipe for my 700th post. The reason I don't talk much here is because DU is just an echo chamber for the Obama club these days and people are getting banned for doing what he told us to do: hold his feet to the fire. I submit you aren't living up to Obama's wish and I am so maybe I'm a pom pom girl after all.

[pnwmom]

26. The main bailout happened during the Bush administration.

And without the bailouts our unemployment rate could be twice as high as now -- or more.

[Yuugal]

39. Its a good thing....

Those NY fed a-holes and all of the Bush cabal were run out of town on a rail..... Oh wait, they are Obama's top guys for the economy. Just freaking great. Its like saying, if we didn't hit Iraq, they might have developed a new space ray to destroy us. The facts are: the economy sucks, there are no job, and Obama doesn't seem to give a shit about it as long as he personally never loses any face. If Obama thought Bush's bailout was such a bad idea why would he keep the same people? Just think, if we had more bailouts companies could afford to move even more factories overseas! Yippee!

[Brother Buzz]

29. Retake Congress? Must I remind you the GOP is rudderless

Steele, Palin, Bachmann? :rofl:

[Yuugal]

38. I agree

But they were rudderless after watergate too and even contemplated changing their party's name in the late 70's. How'd that turn out? Within a few years they owned it all either officially or with help from the vichy dems. The time to be most afraid of your opponent is just after you've embarrassed him by knocking him to the mat.

I also think too many here underestimate the sheer rage us poor and working class people have at the middle and upper classes. REGARDLESS OF PARTY! If the economy keeps tanking, and the market starts tanking again (and I believe it will because the boomers are going to all need to start drawing on their 401k's and the market can't handle all that selling at once) then we are going to see serious trouble for our party.

Lets see: baby boom starts in '45 add 65 yrs thats 2010....what a coincidence. All those ARM mortgages that are about to implode the financial markets again? Yeah 2010 again. No Obama running so no coattails. A perfect storm.

To top it all off, the party, and this site, has done everything humanly possible to alienate us progressives. How psyched will I be to vote for my blue dog in 2010 while its obvious he doesn't gives a shit about me and people like me? The dems haven't lived up to their promises, and the millions of young people who came aboard have now seen the futility of our system ever changing anything and are also disgusted.

You guys keep reliving the glory of our "victory" last year. All the Goldman Sachs, I mean, Obama people, let them keep reliving it too. In a year you will all be crying here about how us damn progressives screwed you and made you fail. Being a progressive in this party means being a battered wife who has to defend hubby so he don't lose his job and we all starve.

[Brother Buzz]

40. I'm less reliving the glory of our "victory" than I'm reveling in their disasterous fall

It's a slow motion train wreck that is still being played out today. They ain't got nothing.

[quaker bill]

41. First, the problem is laws

In Fl and in most places, lines on the ballot have candidates, otherwise the line is not on the ballot. If there was a candidate on a "liberal" line, then it would appear on the ballot and he/she would get and keep any votes received. I understand New York to be different in this regard.

As others have mentioned, the bailout is a Bush fiasco created in an attempt to derail another Bush fiasco. Further, no one proposed the "bailout" as a stimulus to curtail unemployment. It was only created to prevent a total market collapse, and shallow the downward slope, little more. The point was to simply buy time while power changed hands. It did this, but little more. To the extent folks expected more, they were confused. Alot of very rich people made really bad bets that they could not cover. The point of the bailout was to "free up" credit. What folks don't get is that "free up" meant that we would go from nearly zero dollars to lend to anyone, to a small amount of dollars to lend to the very best prospects.

The notion that the repugs will take back congress is rather far fetched. When all is said and done, I would not be at all surprised to see Dems lose a few in the House but pick up a just a few in the Senate. A year, my friend, is a political eternity.

[Yuugal]

46. Thank you for being polite

You didn't call me a freeper or stupid or brainwashed for my views and that is a rare response to anything a progressive says around here. The fact is though, both rep and dems alike realized the bailout was a huge scam stealing from both us and generations to come.....AND WE WON AND DEFEATED IT. Then what, a week later, they slip it through anyway. Thats why I think we will lose big next time around. Pelosi and Reid held the purse strings so yes, it was a dem bailout.

We can't run against Bush anymore, the economy still sucks, Obama wants to make it even worse by making the poor classes pay for the rich people's healthcare.(subsidies my ass, the working class can't afford premiums and copays or we wouldn't need HCR) Now Obama wants another NAFTA with the pacific rim so every last good job in America can finally be given away. And while his kids enjoy privileged lives and the best of everything, mine are supposed to work at taco bell and like it.

It is just hard for me to see all the overconfidence here. The cheerleaders know the Titanic is unsinkable. I don't trust authority or its motives, EVER. Smooth sailing. But thanks again for being polite and thoughtful. Five yrs ago when I joined this site was a haven for angry lefties. Now that we won we not only have to scream to get anyone to even hear our issues, we have to yell even louder because the bandwagon cheerleaders refuse to do anything but gawk at how handsome a couple our pres and his wife make......and work their hardest at getting every leftist voice they can off this site, with the help of the mods. So, saddest of all, one by one they are tomb-stoning many of my favorite posters because they weren't loyal enough to Emperor Obama.

I've only posted maybe 5 threads in 5 years and after Will Pitt told me and bobbo we basically deserved to be poor, I realized there is a whole class of poverty profiteers who make serious money from our angst while not giving one good god damn about us people. I now believe Obama to be like that and I think Americans of both partys will see it too by next year.

[Atman]

48. Hooha! Bwhaha! That's a good one!

You started off the attacks with "corporate piece of shit," and now are thankful that respondents don't treat you the same way. Fuckin' rich, man! Awesome play. I've seen John Boehner and the other right-wingers work that angle with great success. I give you credit for pulling one out of your -- er, their -- ass.

.

[Yuugal]

51. You are reply number one

and you call me a brainwashed freeper. After that, the gloves come off asshole. Now go back to licking Al From's scrotum like a good little boy.

[Atman]

56. Actually, no. I never once called you a brainwashed freeper.

Are you projecting or merely misquoting?

:shrug:

.

[Yuugal]

59. is the D is DLC for disingenuous?

"Suck it all in. Suck in the Morning Joe flak, the Fox News delusions. Go for it. Get high on it. And get real.

Help, or STFU. Joining Fox and Joe and the corporate interests is NOT help."

Those are your words. You insist I'm a fox news freeper, a joe fetishist, a corporatist, and I've never done anything for my causes when you don't even know me. You've been projecting ever since. You then have the balls to complain when a lifelong dem gets mad at some bitchass punk who lives in an "office" in his mom's basement while he posts here 500 times a day? Try posting less and getting your lazy ass out to the local food pantry, which since you know everything about my area you will of course know they need money and donations NOW. There sure as fuck wont be any help coming from Obumble for us poor NY'ers this year. All that money went to rich people. Are you one? That would explain everything.

[quaker bill]

71. Quakers often are polite

Our commitment to non-violence is more than simply not carrying weapons. One can disagree without being disagreeable.

One should trust authority to be authority as one should trust politicians to be politicians.

There is nothing in the current healthcare legislation that will require the poor to pay for rich people's healthcare. People as rich as I am, which is not all that rich, have insurance, will not qualify for the program, and will get no subsidy. Other than protection from recission if I or my wife get sick, the HCR program will have no benefits or impact on me, at least as currently written. Several versions have folks wealthier than I paying a significant tax to support HCR, but as they already have access to good insurance and healthcare, it will bring them no more benefits than I will obtain.

My insurance family coverage, my contribution and my employer's contribution included, currently runs a little more than $1,200 a month. This premium is for the stripped down, lowest priced plan my employer offers, with a significant deductible, co-pays for nearly everything, and a whole booklet full of restrictions and procedures. Screw up anywhere in the process, and they pay little or nothing.

Under HCR, folks will get a similar plan, but with fewer restrictions, and preventative medicine without co-pay. At the lowest income levels, say minimum wage as an example, folks will be required to contribute 2.5% of their income, basically one hour of pay a week, locally $7.15. This totals to $28.60 a month. There is nothing in the legislation to indicate that I the cost of my insurance will ever be less than $1,200 a month, there is hope that the cost will stop increasing, but that is about all.

I do not mind this at all. I have been affording my share of the premiums, roughly $425 a month, for a very long time and I am doing just fine. HCR for the poor, as proposed, is very much like the insurance I had when I was poor and working a unionized factory assembly job. This was a long time ago when I made just a little more than minimum wage at $2.50 an hour, and paid $2.50 a week for insurance. The insurance proved most useful with a new born in the house.

As far as pacific rim "free trade", I would have to see the details before I would offer criticism. I know that it is true that several Presidents in a row have been working hard to open the Japanese market to our imports. Japan is one of the few places on the planet where wages and standard of living are higher than in the US. Structured properly, this is one of the very few places where "free trade" might actually bring jobs to the US for a change. We are now a comparatively cheap labor country when Japan is considered. They are comparatively wealthy because they have avoided globalization and free trade with great vigor. It will be interesting to see if this changes.

[depakid]

45. I'm inclined to agree- it was a good move by the far right- and the Dems are on the way down

as they yet again managed to create the perception that they stand for nothing through their endless corporate and religious pandering and are incapable of getting through reforms that help ordinary Americans.

The irony of course is that the right wing Dems who are causing most of the problems in Congress and the Senate- are those with the smallest swings and therefore most likely to lose their seats!

[Yuugal]

54. You are still here?

Wow. I thought all my favorites were gone. I know we disagreed over the Polanski thing but you are another of my fav posters who I wonder if will still be here when the purge ends. We are the Titanic II right now and captain Smith....er Obama says full speed ahead, damn the icebergs. Never mind we've done the "help the rich first and nobody second" thing before. Here we go again. Thanks for posting on my last thread. I'm not going to originate any more threads because the hatred I get in return for advocating my commie issues like poverty, worker's rights, gay rights, health care just isn't worth the bellyache. What we need is a Progressive Underground, like DU used to be.

[Political Heretic]

64. Its a mistake to trivializing the power of the fanatical right and its sway over the easily swayed

Many of the public are moved more by emotion and a sense of momentum and bravado than by any sort of politically consistent position.

Right now, the conservatives have both the fire and the momentum to attract attention. I think its a mistake to blow this off and not take it seriously. This is how the country swings radically right... by parties blowing their chance to take dramatic action for the people and allowing movements like this one going on in the right to attract people with its sense of momentum and emotion....

[Political Heretic]

65. PS -- Atman and you both need to stop acting like children and get the fuck over yourselves

Look at this thread.... its all you do, acting like children. I'm not sure it makes a difference who's right or wrong at this point - I'd be embarrassed either way, personally.

[Atman]

70. Thanks

I'll give your opinion all the consideration it is due.

.

[Fire1]

69. I don't know what kind of Dem I am after reading this thread

but I certainly agree whole heartedly with much of what you've posted ( minus the name calling exchange, of course). However, I don't think the problem is Obama, so much as our system of government.

[Renew Deal]

72. The multiple "lines" in NY are a nightmare.

And they don't benefit anyone except a few power-players.