The Unspoken Christian Problem in the United States

[Are_grits_groceries]

Dallas Dem's diary :: ::

Why does the main stream media continue to ignore the Christian problem here in the United States?

According to the FBI, an estimated 1,382,012 violent crimes occurred nationwide in 2008, and the 99% of those crimes were committed by Christians . In fact, Christians in the United States murdered over 14,000 Americans last year. Christians also committed close to 10,000,000 property crimes against Americans last year.

One of Christianity's major sub-sects, Catholics, are responsible for the majority of illegal immigration from Mexico into this country. Christian bankers on Wall Street have wrecked the economy. Last spring, a Christian terrorist drove around Dallas randomly shooting people on the Freeways. Why is political correctness preventing the media from saying what we all know is true? That Christians in America pose a grave danger and that you and your family are likely to be victims of Christian criminals sometime in your life.

While many claim that Christianity is a religion of peace, hundreds of wars in the past 2,000 years have been started by Christians. And while gunpowder may have been discovered by the Chinese, just about every weapon of modern civilization has been developed by Christian scientists and engineers. There can be no doubt that Christians are responsible for just about everything that's wrong in America.

I say, send them all back where they came from.

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/11/11/104927/73

When you put the shoe on the other foot, you might be able to stop walking in the same direction.

[Kolesar]

1. RW fundies are sick and the Catholic hierarchy permits criminal acts

But that hardly represents the world of Christianity as experienced by millions of believers.

I am sticking with atheism, myself.

[Are_grits_groceries]

2. I posted this to show how another

perspective would read. I wish I could put it in every newspaper. It shows what happens to other people every day writ large.

[malaise]

3. Nicely put

I'd love the stats on atheists - bet we're the least violent of all.
:hi:

[Are_grits_groceries]

4. Heh!

If I was to form an opinion about Gawd based on the actions of a lot of his followers, I would assume he was a mean little fucker.

(I'll see what I can find out. Everything is somewhere on the interwebs.) :hi:

[malaise]

7. I avoid all gods

I prefer the stray cats to 'imaginary voices' who apparently tell people to commit horrible acts in 'their' name.

[Are_grits_groceries]

9. I am the Archcatfish of

"The Church of Grits and Shrimp." We believe in eating well. Helping whoever we can, and minding our own business. Our guiding principle is to choose the kindest course of action possible.

(We also don't take any shit.)

[Bette Noir]

54. I'll join.

If you can get 20 people to call you "Pastor," you can perform weddings in Las Vegas.

[Are_grits_groceries]

60. Joining is simple.

If you want to be in, you are. I don't want to perform any weddings. I thought about that years ago when I was a notary. I decided that I didn't want to in any way be responsible for anything that happened.

[BrklynLiberal]

66. That is a great philosophy. The universe would be a better place if everyone followed it.

:pals: :fistbump: :yourock: :thumbsup:

[Are_grits_groceries]

67. Thx. We like to keep it simple. nt

[Go2Peace]

201. 99% of crimes in Saudi Arabia are committed by Muslims too, what does it prove?

Just that most Americans identify themselves as Christians.

I don't completely disagree with the premise, because I do believe that fundamentalist Christians are overrepresented in crime statistics. They live in denial and hypocrisy and they project their personal problems onto others. So someone who rails against Child porn, well, later we find they were addicted to Child porn, or people who rail against welfare tend to be overrepresented on the welfare rolls. I think that is human nature.

But I think your conclusion is overly broad.

[Go2Peace]

203. Also, can you provide a link to the stats? I don't see any data to support the hypothesis

[The Doctor.]

260. Hmmm...

Seems you've missed the point.

It's making the point that the faith of the criminal has little or nothing to do with the crime.

[mike_c]

125. you just reminded me that it's been way too long...

...since the last time I cooked some grits and shrimp! Yeah!

[malaise]

157. LOL

Well we're off to have some shrimp pasta at a friend's restaurant - it's restaurant week and the prices are too good to miss - tonight's the last night and hubby insists that we cash in. :D

[Zoeisright]

145. Read the Bible to get the same assumption.

The God of the Bible IS a 'mean little fucker', killing babies (live, actually post-birth babies) and telling his followers to kill everyone but 'save the virgins for themselves'.

[WVRICK13]

10. I Agree

we tend to think with our brains and not our emotions. When logic enters the picture irrational violence takes a back seat.

[Kolesar]

6. What is English for the words : "jihad", "caliphate", "sharia law"?

"The global war on terror"
"North Atlantic Treaty Organization"
"World Bank rules"

[Swamp Rat]

32. "Think of the Children"

;)

[Bette Noir]

56. "Crusade," "Diocese," "God's Law."

Why don't people get that?

[liberal_at_heart]

71. Christian translation of infidel: heathen or pagan

[Old Time Pagan]

120. I resemble that remark NT

[BlancheSplanchnik]

134. jesus loves you n/t

[Bette Noir]

52. Thanks. Somebody had to do it.

[Maraya1969]

96. It would be read with less knee jerk disagreement if you mentioned the use of "terror"

when people talk about the Fort Hood shootings. I know your post, (And I think it is great btw) is about how twisted out bigotry has become against minorities, (but I do agree that more people in the history of this world have been killed in the name of Christianity than anything else)

I was thinking about a way to send this to my fundy family and that is why I wanted a prelude about how many people see Muslims and other minorities now

[old mark]

14. But look at the history of christianity in the US - Killing the "heathen" indians,

killing "witches", in colonial times to killing abortion providers and running the RW political psychopaths in congress (The family) today, killing gays, spreading hate, encouraging murder...and not paying taxes on all that property.

Great influence, christians - go back top Europe where you came from.

mark

[tavalon]

18. Sorry, Europe ditched those reprobates long ago

We're stuck with them. Why couldn't we have gotten the convicts instead of the fundy whackadoos?

[amandabeech]

103. We received plenty of criminals.

Georgia was originally a penal colony.

Many of the indentured servants came out of English prisons. Many were petty criminals or debtors.

[nickinSTL]

26. now, don't blame it on Europe

the Christians invaded Europe a thousand plus years ago :evilgrin:

[Bette Noir]

58. Nah, they come from the Middle East, ultimately.

I don't think they'd get along, there.

[BrklynLiberal]

73. But didn't the original "Christianity" that started in the Middle East get

"mutilated" by the Greeks and Romans who decided it needed to be spread all over the world and destroy all the other "pagan" religions?
I would guess that the original followers of the teacher, Jesus, would not recognize what we call Christianity these days.

I would think that Christianity, like many religions, was used by those in power to stay in power, and rile up the masses to follow them into whatever war served their own private purposes.

Even the Popes were political appointees back in the day. IT was all so down and dirty, and has come to be revered as something so "holy".

I am with grits...I like his "religion".

[tblue37]

193. The original followers of Jesus--and Jesus himself--would be derided

by today's Christians as dirty liberal hippie cowards. They would also get thrown off airplanes for looking like "Muslim terrorists."

[BrklynLiberal]

215. You absolutely got that right...

http://www.liberalslikechrist.org/

http://www.jesusisaliberal.org/

[SergeStorms]

5. Well stated........

rec #8. Perception is reality. If people actually put their belief systems to this same cross examination it would be a totally different world. Or maybe not. People don't seem to have the same aversion to hypocrisy as they did a few decades ago. :shrug:

[Christa]

8. 13 th rec

Thanks for posting!





there is no god and I am his prophet

[DesertDiamond]

34. Christa!!! Love this!!! LOL!

[wuvuj]

11. We followers of the GREAT PUMPKIN...

...do not commit crimes....except maybe during Thanksgiving and Christmas when the heathen eat.....PUMPKIN PIE! If ever there was a travesty and outright blasphemy! For shame...for shame.

[Are_grits_groceries]

12. Do you take

marshmallows or whipped cream in vain?

[wuvuj]

13. Not I...but I beleive the heathen do....

...

[Arugula Latte]

36. Squash abusers!

:o

[Delphinus]

15. Very interesting

way of stating the facts. Good points. Thanks.

[Le Taz Hot]

16. LOL!

Excellent. :applause:

[tavalon]

17. Kudos!

[Sultana]

19. Lame as FUCK

Thanx for the broad brush....

[Echo In Light]

20. 1,382,012 violent crimes in 08, 99% Christian perps?! On the surface I'm skeptical of that figure

I was raised one, although abandoned organized religion when I was twelve, and so by family, extended family, I know of many, many people who are Christians, or try to adhere to the central 'do unto others' tenets, and off the top of my head, most have never committed a violent crime that I'm aware of. So yes, the article is painting w/a rather broad brush ... and I'm interested to know the source of those crime stats.

[Are_grits_groceries]

21. It is an example of the broad brush

that is used against other people all the time. Substitute Muslims, gays, hispanics for Christians and you see what happens to a lot of groups.

You are offended because a broad brush was applied to Christians. Well, then these other groups have feelings that are just as valid. It's not right to broad brush anyone.

[Echo In Light]

22. Okay. Got that aspect of it...but for those of us waking/baking, the article isn't....

... presented as, well, aside from the stats, an obvious parody, so I thought the data was being presented as factual :silly:

[JonQ]

95. I would be offended

if people likewise completely fabricated numbers to attack muslims, rather than using real stats.

[ImOnlySleeping]

163. I'm sorry....

Did you just imply that there is a valid reason to attack Muslims?

[Dogtown]

29. Was your childhood

satire-deprived?

[Electric Monk]

43. No true Scotsman...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

[JonQ]

98. Like saying all real muslims reject violence

ergo there is no such thing as islamic terrorism.

[Quantess]

250. Thanks for that.

That was the clearest explanation for that fallacy I've ever read.

[mike_c]

128. perhaps you should look up the definition...

...of ironic humor?

Sometimes the broadest brushes paint the most meaningful pictures.

[Zambero]

166. If this post offends...

then it's most likely doing what it intended to do. It's not often that we in the "majority" have an opportunity to experience the finger-pointing tactics applied so freely to others, on the basis of an isolated incident perpretrated by someone else. No fun, huh?

[DailyGrind51]

23. "Christianity" ended with the death of the original 12.

What we have now are posers, perverts, and profiteers.

[RagAss]

25. ...and the banning of the Gnostic Gospels.

[Igel]

79. That's just a different redefinition.

What Xianity started at is far different from what you see in the Gnostic gospels, I think.

We recognize a fallacy when others do it, screaming "critical thinking," but seldom stop and think half so critically about ourselves.

Sorry, my elitist grad school training showing. (Then again, only a couple of professors actually suggested idea--most thought such an idea insanity and self-limiting. Best only to limit others, I guess.)

[anonymous171]

180. Gnosticism was/is a sect of Christianity, nothing more. nt

[BrklynLiberal]

113. Must agree.

[D23MIURG23]

24. I rec'd you for pointing out the hypocirsy of the right wing,

But I don't agree with the implication that these two religions might actually be benign. The people who take these two religions most seriously invariably commit atrocities and/or incite others to. The Spanish inquisition was not incidental to christianity, just as the "martyrdom" attacks are not incidentally carried out by muslims.

[femrap]

27. May these so-called

Xians be raptured to hell.

[billh58]

213. Dibs on

their stuff!

[Mudoria]

28. epic fail

[Dogtown]

31. Trite

Come up with an original riposte, please.

As far as the OP's "failure"; those of us with imaginations, open-minds, and an appreciation of satire got it.

[rd_kent]

161. The only fail I see is yours....

And your inability to add something of substance to this discussion.

[Swamp Rat]

30. George W. Bush and Cheney, and all of the GOP are christians, right?

[Bette Noir]

61. Most, not all.

[Swamp Rat]

70. Which GOP Senators and/or Representatives are not christian?

I was not referring to Joe the Plumber when I wrote "GOP" - only politicians.

[Sebastian Doyle]

75. Eric Cantor and Joe Lieberdouche aren't Christian

And the only cross Jeff Sessions recognizes is one that's on fire.

[liberaltrucker]

146. And Richard Shelby

:puke:

[Are_grits_groceries]

76. Keith Ellison is Muslim.

Jewish members of Congress:

U.S. SENATE
Barbara Boxer (D-Calif.)
Benjamin Cardin (D-Md.)
Russ Feingold (D-Wisc.)
Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.)
Al Franken (D-Minn.)*
Herb Kohl (D-Wisc.)
Frank Lautenberg (D-N.J.)**
Joseph Lieberman (I-Conn.)
Carl Levin (D-Mich.)**
Bernard Sanders (I-Vt.)
Charles Schumer (D-N.Y.)
Arlen Specter (D-Pa.)
Ron Wyden (D-Ore.)

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
Gary Ackerman (D-N.Y.)
John Adler (D-N.J.)*
Shelley Berkley (D-Nev.)
Howard Berman (D-Calif.)
Eric Cantor (R-Va.)
Stephen Cohen (D-Tenn.)
Susan Davis (D-Calif.)
Eliot Engel (D-N.Y.)
Bob Filner (D-Calif.)
Barney Frank (D-Mass.)
Gabrielle Giffords (D-Ariz.)
Alan Grayson (D-Fla.)
Jane Harman (D-Calif.)
Paul Hodes (D-N.H.)
Steve Israel (D-N.Y.)
Steve Kagen (D-Wisc.)
Ron Klein (D-Fla.)
Sander Levin (D-Mich.)
Nita Lowey (D-N.Y.)
Jerrold Nadler (D-N.Y.)
Jared Polis (D-Colo.)*
Steve Rothman (D-N.J.)
Jan Schakowsky (D-Ill.)
Allyson Schwartz (D-Pa.)
Adam Schiff (D-Calif.)
Brad Sherman (D-Calif.)
Debbie Wasserman Schultz (D-Fla.)
Henry Waxman (D-Calif.)
Anthony Weiner (D-N.Y.)
Robert Wexler (D-Fla.)
John Yarmuth (D-Ky.)

[Swamp Rat]

89. GOP

GOP

[Are_grits_groceries]

94. That narrowed the search to a nanosecond.

Eric Cantor is Jewish. LIEberman is Jewish, but who knows what party he belongs to.

[zoff]

236. No jewish repuglicans?

[Flatulo]

81. Yes, and I understand that they also enjoy orange juice. What's the point?

[Swamp Rat]

90. No point al all.

But I'm glad I wasted a minute of your time. :)

[Stevenmarc]

33. No one runs to Jesus because their life is going swell

Most people have their come to Jesus moment when they hit some sort of personal bottom so those numbers really don't come as any surprise.

[geckosfeet]

35. What are you? Some kind of anti-christianite? A rabid anti-christianite.

Not saying it's not justified.

Just saying.

"Kill the adults, save the unborn!"

[leeroysphitz]

37. Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter ...

[baldguy]

38. EPIC WIN!

Exposing the hypocrisy of conservative bigots.

[pleah]

39. K&R

[NJmaverick]

40. Game set and match

:patriot:

[marshall]

41. Are Scientologists considered Christians?

Those people are nuts.

[Bette Noir]

63. Gawd, no.

[liberal_at_heart]

42. I think you have a very well written satire here

It illustrates how rediculous it is to say that all of one group is responsible for anything. I hear racist people comment on how most crimes in this country are commited by black people and how the majority of people in jail are black and this must mean that all black people are bad. As you mentioned people also use this screwed up logic to judge Muslims, gay people, and many other minorities. It's all just a way for racists to justify their racism.

[Kajsa]

64. It is a satire, along the lines

of 'A Modest Proposal'.

imho, Fundies aren't Christian.

They are bat-crap crazy heretics.

[Are_grits_groceries]

65. Stew the kids.

The literalists are coming for dinner.

[Kajsa]

147. LOL!

That's it!

:)

[Igel]

80. Most don't.

It's a great piece of satire, unfortunately it rests of the shoulders of several great men.




Did I say "men"? Sorry. I should have proofread. I meant "strawmen."

1. Some say all Muslims should be punished for the acts of a few.

2. Some say that all varieties of Islam are the same--and then pick an extremist version as that one.

3. Some say that we know better than the person doing something what that person's motives actually were.

Of course, most don't fall for (1). Some do, but at that point the OP mocks only a few who can easily be mocked on other grounds.

(2) The problem is that many say all varieties of Islam are the same, the There Can Be Only One view of idiots and ideologues. They all deserve to be mocked, IMHO, if any one does. There are lots of such people on the free republic site. A fair number are here, too. They just pick different versions for candidacy.

(3) is less obvious. Roeder killed the apostate, the sinners. He had a religious motive, if you will. If you want to couch it in more anthropological terms, he was in one group and he saw abortion providers as being in a different, hated tribe, one that his tribe was not only free but honor-bound to kill. The two versions, religion vs. tribe, are equivalent, in my view. Most of the evidence so far points to his defending his tribe--he may have been mentally ill, but he picked how he expressed it and found ample justification in it. (Just as, arguably, Roeder did--the difference being that those killing for that particular motive tend to be far fewer, and more universally decried by co-religionists, and when he's supported we have no trouble decrying his idiot supporters.) The problem is that many are trying to say that the tribal boundaries didn't matter, that what Hasan said for years was unrelated to his religion. In other words, we can completely discount his own stated reasons for what he did and assert that had he been Amish or followed the Dao he'd have done precisely the same things for the same "real" reasons. We make him less than he is in order to make political hay--which is the precise opposite of what we did in Roeder's case.

It means that the satire collapses: The people responsible for most crimes in the US don't do it because of religious motives, so instead of it being a relevant criterion it's irrelevant. It's rather like saying that when a white creep kills a black girl while shouting epithets, he's really doing it because she's Baptist and he's Episcopalian--and then calling that satire. It's sad, and an attempt to make sure that the mirror, as Swift would have said, shows not everybody's face but the writer's, nor even just the faces of those he dislikes, but shows the face of the person he wants to defend in the most angelic of terms.

[Are_grits_groceries]

82. Oh FFS! It's an overall snark at how people

take groups and make generalizations based on one criteria. I'm glad you were able to use it for your dissertation though.

[BrklynLiberal]

119. .....

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

[twitomy]

44. well the obvious flaw in this analogy is...

Most of the "Christians" who do these acts, do it DESPITE what their religion teaches them. They are violating the tenants of their faith. Not very Christian.

On the other hand, the muslim extremists do their deeds BECASUE they think that is Islam calls for. Thats why hear "Alluah Akbar" when the act is committed by a Islamic extremist, but you never hear "Jesus Saves!" when an act is done by a Christian. The act done by the Christian in 99.9% of the time is never done in the name of Jesus, but for the Islamic extremist, it IS done in the name of Islam 99.9% of the time.

So your analogy is weak.

[Are_grits_groceries]

45. Don't think so.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of Christians who do use their religion as an excuse for their actions. They have twisted the meaning of their faith into knots IMHO.

Having said that, the diarist wrote this as an EXAMPLE of how indiscriminate people are with their pronouncements.

FFS, back up and look at the bigger meaning. Some people went into automatic 'offended mode," and never really got the point.

[JNelson6563]

46. Dear goodness me!

You need to read a bible friend. A real how-to guide on all the nastiest of human behavior there.

Julie

[cali]

47. Actually, I have some problems with the OP- BUT

you're analysis of it is fatally flawed. Religions are open to interpretation, to put it mildly. And there are militant interpretations of Christianity- hardly minor either. And you certainly have heard religious (Christian) explanations for some awful crimes such as the genocide of Native Americans. More recently, there's David Koresh.

It's absolutely ignorant and bised to make the claim you're making.,

[Toasterlad]

48. Um...No.

While the OP is making liberal use of the large number of christians in the US and the large number of CRIMES in the US, you can still draw an analogy between those acts committed by christians for their faith and those acts committed by muslims for THEIR faith. I don't know what abortion-doctor murderers scream when they're killing abortion doctors, but you can bet your ass that it IS, in fact, some variation of "Jesus Saves". Christians have claimed to kill gay people for Jeebuz, to murder indiscriminately because "god told them too", to kill their own children because they believed they were possessed by demons. That's not to mention the countless synagogues and mosques that have been vandalized, and all the Jews and muslims that have been victimized and abused in the name of christ.

In THIS country, christianity-inspired crime is MUCH more prevalent than muslim-inspired crime.

[amandabeech]

107. Please do not confuse those with serious mental illnesses like schizophrenia

with the sane religious.

Many of the folks who kill "because 'god told them too'" are mentally ill. They are manifesting the same illness as those who kill because the CIA told them too through a microchip that the CIA embedded in their buttocks for just such a purpose.

[Toasterlad]

142. As Far As I'm Concerned, "Sane Religious" Is an Oxymoron.

However, if we're going to exclude the "crazy" people, I hope you're prepared to discuss the possibility that anyone who is willing to blow themselves to bits - not to mention dozens of innocent bystanders - in the name of religion is ALSO mentally ill.

Even if you want to leave out the certifiables, there are still dozens of crimes committed in this country every day in the name of christ, from vandalism to murder. Far, FAR more ciminial christians than muslims in this country.

[BrklynLiberal]

127. The KKK burned a cross, not a Star of David or a Crescent and Star.

[Fire1]

168. And Charles Manson wears a pentagram on his forehead. n/t

[Sebastian Doyle]

175. Well, actually no......

It was originally an X. Now it's a swastika.



(oh yeah, BTW happy birthday Charlie, you fucking piece of shit! He turned 75 this week.)

[Fire1]

188. Sorry, my mistake. I'll leave it at that. n/t

[Fire1]

167. These are people who are clearly mentally imbalanced and

you are confusing mental illness with Christianity.

[Toasterlad]

196. "you are confusing mental illness with Christianity."

Must...refrain...from obvious...response...

[Fire1]

199. What happened to "open minded?" What happened to

tolerance? Why must Christians be equated with mentally illness? That's mighty narrow minded of you.

[Toasterlad]

252. Let Me Ask You a Question.

If someone posted on DU saying that they were a follower Apollo, the sun god, and demanded tolerance and open-mindedness, how would you react to that? What if it where someone claiming to be a follower of Thor, or Anubis, or Benten? I'm sure an open-minded fellow such as yourself wouldn't post anything negative, but what if some other person did? Would it make you angry? Would you find it necessary to rush to the god-worshipping poster's defense?

And remember: your god doesn't like it when you lie.

[liberal_at_heart]

49. You are right

Most Christian extremists who kill do it in the name of the Old Testament God. Other than Jesus saving their souls Christian extremists have no use for what Jesus taught in the New Testament. You know things like love, forgiveness, compassion, peace. The Christian extremists who kill abortion doctors, gays, Muslims, and other heathens as Christians call them do so to please their Old Testament God. I think where most Christian extremists go wrong is they think that part of their salvation comes converting other people and from remaking the world into a holy world. Jesus may have said go out and preach the word, although personally I think someone else squeezed that in there later, he did not say go out and punish all who do not convert. A Christian's salvation is suppose to come from simply believing in Jesus, not from converting people or punishing those who do not convert. And it's not suppose to come from remaking the world into a holy world through politics.

[Are_grits_groceries]

51. Oh pffffffffffft.

They tie their beliefs into a mishmash of the OT and NT. As far as they are concerned, Jesus is a direct extension of the OT or they think he was running around with Isaac. It is all balled up, and they don't let a few thological points get in their way.

They also listen to the interpretations of the Bible through a lot of grifters with strange hair, money-grubbing hands, and a tenuous hold on reality much less Christianity.

[twitomy]

85. The "body count" of todays Christian extremists is miniscule

compared to todays Islamic extremists. So the OP with his/her anti-Christian bigotry tries to "level the playing field" by claiming all crimes committed by Christians are because of the criminal's interpretation of Christianity, which is simply not the case. I can see right thru this and am not buying it.

[Are_grits_groceries]

91. Thank you for playing "Can I Miss the Point."

You can pick up your consolation prizes on your way out. Since you can see right thru this, you should have no trouble finding the exit.

I am a bigot. I hate 'teh stoopid.'

[twitomy]

129. I didnt miss the point.

Your point is you dont like it when people have a problem with Muslims in general and want to "send them back where they came from" because of the acts of a few extremists. You substituted Christian for Muslim to illustrate how it sounds on the other foot. I contend its not a good analogy because this problem people are having with Muslims is because of the disproportiantly high number of incidents rooted in their religious beliefs. The crimes committed by Christians can not be used to put the shoe on the other foot becasue they are not generally fueled by Christianity.

[billh58]

162. And exactly

where is this "problem people are having with Muslims is because of the disproportiantly {sic} high number of incidents rooted in their religious beliefs" taking place? Other than 9/11, which was not carried out by American Muslims, where have the other "disproportionately high number of incidents" happened?

How many "incidents rooted in religious beliefs" have been perpetrated by radical Muslims in the USA in the past 40-50 years? How many innocent abortion providers, blacks, gays, Jews and other "bystanders" have been victims of "incidents rooted in religious beliefs," by US radical Christians in the past 40-50 years?

If you are referring to a "high number of incidents" carried out by Muslims in the Middle East, when did they begin to increase? Perhaps after we illegally invaded Iraq? If you are referring to the I/P situation, that (like Northern Ireland) has been going on for decades with atrocities on both sides.

No, there are absolutely no facts to substantiate your, or others', attempts to scapegoat the religion of Islam, or its millions of adherents around the globe. The Islamic fanatics are not distinguishable from the Christian and Judaic fanatics in this, or any other country around the world -- except in bigoted Christian minds.

[twitomy]

164. Im talking on a global level

Cant recall any suicide bombers for Jesus....
Cant recall any Priests diving planes into skyscrapers...

"How many innocent abortion providers, blacks, gays, Jews and other "bystanders" have been victims of "incidents rooted in religious beliefs,"

None. All those incidents are contrary to Christian teaching. However the Koran explicitly calls for
the death of "infidels"

Fact is the vast majority of Muslims are not terrorists nor are they terrorist sympathizers. But most terrorists today are Muslims. Hence peoples "problem" with Islam.

[billh58]

174. You conveniently

leave out the KKK and it's religious origins, and the White Supremacist groups which have replaced them in recent years.

Of course abortion providers, blacks, gays, Jews, and others have been killed by people who sincerely believed that they were carrying out the will of a Christian "God," and many have said so in their defense. Whether they fit your (or anyone's) "definition" of Christianity, or not, is at the very foundation of this discussion.

Your assertion that the Qur'an "explicitly calls for the death of infidels," and that all Muslims believe that way is yet another false accusation and half-truth which has been furthered by those who are willfully ignorant of another ideology:

http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=7&ID=9801&CATE=3500

http://islam.thetruecall.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=36

It is clear that the call for the killing of infidels is from the time of Muhammad and relies heavily on the teachings of Abraham, and had a different meaning then, than it does now. By comparison, the Old Testament of the People of Abraham contains many calls for, and references to, the death of "unbelievers":

http://www.nobeliefs.com/DarkBible/darkbible3.htm

The bottom line here, is that there is no difference between radicals who carry out violence in the name of an ideology. To single out Islam as the "evil" religion of the day, is to willfully ignore the millions of Muslims among us (second largest religion in the world) who are NOT terrorists, as well as the few Christians and Jews who ARE. Just as mainstream Christianity does not "teach" violence, neither does mainstream Islam. There are, however, radicals from all religions, and those who would use religion for their own gain (Osama bin Laden, Al Qaeda, the Taliban, the KKK, Aryan Nation, Religious-Right, etc.).

[twitomy]

185. Im not singling out Islam as the "evil" religion of the day.

And yes I generally agree that all religions have their radical elements. I'm only saying that the reason there is a mistrust/dislike of muslims today is becasue they are the predominate religious-oriented trouble makers today. As I said, 99.9% of Muslims are fine people, but most terrorists today are Muslim. So one should not be surprised that there is a higher level of distrust of Muslims today in the US due to 9/11. This latest incident in Fort Hood only adds to it. Not saying I buy into the distrust, I am acknowledging WHY its there. To say this distrust is only just plain old bigotry, which you will always have some of, is nonsense. I have never personally witnessed or heard of any such distrust of Hindus, Sihks, Toaists, Bahai etc as they are not engaging in this bullshit in the name of their religion. And if they did, you damn well better beleive you would be hearing people say they should "go back to where they came from"...

[liberal_at_heart]

189. I would venture to say that the majority of Christians distrust anyone who is not Christian

My father who is evangelical Christian is on his way to my brother's right now to get my sister in law out of what he calls paganism and back into a Christian church so she can properly address her alcohol and drug addiction. Do you think there will be a president of this country who is not Christian anytime soon? Of course there won't be. The Christians wouldn't allow it because they don't trust anyone who isn't Christian. My first thought when my daughter told me she has decided to be atheist was well she'll never be president. And not because she is female but because she is an atheist. Christians in the military don't trust their lives on the battle field to anyone who isn't a Christian. On and on and on.

[billh58]

192. Actually, the

Ft. Hood incident has not been determined to be an act of "terrorism" as yet, and appears to be more in line with the mass murders at Columbine, and other acts of Americans "going postal."

The fact that "most terrorists are Muslim" is true, and unfortunate, but that is like saying that most acts of aggressive war are committed by Christian Western Nations. You could just as easily say that "most terrorists are Middle Easterners" who are incidentally Muslim, and still be correct. How is our conduct of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan different from "terrorism" in the eyes of the Peoples of the Middle East? Our own government once called some of these same Muslim terrorists "freedom fighters" (and supported them militarily) when they were at war with our Cold War enemies.

I hear what you, and others, are saying, but ascribing the acts of a relative few to all of the members of the world's second largest religion is also nonsense. Blaming the whole of Islam for the actions of a handful of extremists is indeed a form of religious bigotry.

Having said that, I absolutely detest ALL deity-based organized religions, and blame them for the bulk of the world's problems since their inception.

[twitomy]

195. "most acts of aggr war are committd by Christian Westrn Nations"

is true! But its not necessarily becasue they are Christian unless your talking about the Crusades.

"You could just as easily say that "most terrorists are Middle Easterners" who are incidentally Muslim, and still be correct"

Not quite. Although most terrorist are ME'ers, the fact that they are Muslim is not "incidental".

Hasan was motivated by his religion. He yelled "Alluah Akbar!" He had communications with people connected to Al Queda. He shaved his body in preparation for "martydom". He sent wire tansfers to Pakistan (He is not Pakistani). He sympathized with the Jihadists. He said he was a Muslim first, American second. In his PROFESSIONAL work he told clients infidels would have there heads cut off and hot oil poured down their neck. If it walks like a duck, shits like a duck, sounds like a duck, well..... So yes I think he was a Islamic terrorists. A homegrown "lone wolf" variety like McVeigh? YES.

[billh58]

207. I guess that

we need to more precisely define true acts of "terrorism" then. Does the term apply only to criminal acts committed by Muslims for religious reasons, or does it apply equally to criminal acts committed by anyone for purely political or monetary reasons? I have a feeling that we, as a nation, have been indoctrinated by the neoconservatives to equate any violent act by a Muslim as an act of "Islamo-Fascist terrorism" regardless of the actual motives for the act.

The fact that most Middle Easterners just happen to be Muslim is, in fact, incidental just as most Westerners just happen to be Christian. And that was exactly my point (like the point of the OP): Christian Western Nations are in the business of engaging in aggressive wars NOT because they are predominantly Christian, but because they have subjective political and/or monetary motives. Similarly, Islamic "freedom fighters" do NOT engage in acts of terrorism because they are predominantly Muslim, but because they have subjective political (and sometimes monetary) motives.

Neither Christianity, nor Islam, nor Judaism, teach hatred or terroristic violence as a tenet, as evidenced by the vast majority of their otherwise peaceful adherents. Criminals from predominantly Judeo-Christian nations, AND those from predominantly Islamic nations, do not commit antisocial acts as a result of their religious teaching, but attempt to pervert the teachings of their religions when it suits their purposes. While the American religious-right does not routinely carry out suicide bombings, they DO create an atmosphere of hatred wherein American religious and political fanatics feel free to kill those they disagree with. The same scenario goes for religious-right Middle Easterners as well.

There are most likely Muslims on a discussion board somewhere in the Middle East at this very moment discussing the "terrorist" acts being committed on a daily basis by criminal Jews and Christians in Palestine, Iraq, Pakistan, and Afghanistan. And, they are also wrong because criminal behavior is not restricted to a particular religion or ideology: it is an equal opportunity, and very human, affliction.

[twitomy]

235. I agree with what you are saying...

If I was to define terrorism, it would be an extra-military (not directed by the military), premeditated act of violence against persons for political or religious reasons with the intent of "publicity". What I mean by publicity is it is done and you want everyone to know about it to further your cause. I dunno, its sort of like obscenity. Kinda Hard to define, but you know it when you see it...

[ImOnlySleeping]

170. ???

"the disproportiantly high number of incidents rooted in their religious beliefs"

please explain. I suspect the ratio exists as your perception and not as a real actual measurement. It's not entirely your fault, as that the media is there to report on every single crime committed by a Muslim, since that sells copy.

[liberal_at_heart]

155. That's just a justification

Us vs. Them. We're the good guys. They are the bad guys. Christian extremists don't kill as many people so they aren't as bad as the Muslim extremists. I don't think so. A life is a life, and murder is murder. Christian extremists are just as bad as Muslim extremists in my book.

[LWolf]

172. I don't think so.

Perhaps it's the definition of "extremist."

I think all who claim that their faith is the only true faith, that the rest are sinners condemned to eternal damnation, and that their primary purpose is to "save" those "sinners" by attempting to convert them are extremists.

I don't think that number is "miniscule."

[Flatulo]

204. You nailed it. This is a stupid attempt to disconnect islamic terrorism from islam.

[Tartiflette]

230. You couldn't be more worng

The body count in George W Bush's "crusade" against Iraq far outstrips the comparatively miniscule deaths at the hands of Islamic Terrorists, even at the lowest of estimates.

[BrklynLiberal]

137. Although there have been times and people who would make it appear that the more souls they "save"

the better a person they are..or there will be a greater guarantee of their entry into heaven.

[TCJ70]

57. I guess this article is supposed to be satire...

...so the author wants reader to see the difference between a Muslim (or whatever other identifying factor you want) doing something, and a Muslim doing something because they're a Muslim. Just as there's a difference between a Christian doing something, and a Christian doing something because they're a Christian.

At least, I hope that's the point...

[twitomy]

84. The OP is trying to say that

just about all the bad things Christians do is BECAUSE they are Christian. That may have been more of the case ages ago, but the fact is most crimes Christians do have nothing to do with Christianity.

[billh58]

165. Actually, the OP

is saying exactly the opposite: it is just as silly to ascribe the criminal acts of Christians to Christianity, as it is to blame Islam for the criminal acts of a few of its followers.

That was the whooshing sound of the point going over your head that the author of the OP was referring to. Satire = sarcasm, wit, exaggeration, and ridicule.

[Fire1]

173. I guess it went over my head, as well. That was not my

interpretation of the article.

[billh58]

194. Read The Onion

much? :think:

[Fire1]

202. Obviously not. n/t

[Divine Discontent]

255. well, just understand that it was satire. the thing that bugs so many progressives is that plenty

of self-proclaimed Christians blame large swaths of society for the ills of whatever subject they're discussing. So, the OP is saying, well, you could say that most immigrants that right-wingers talk about as being illegals, are Christians - so, what are they yelling about 'illegals' when most of them share their religion - so Christians cause most of the crime in this country. See? I figured it out as satire part way through, because at first I was like, how offensive! But, it was done very well. And if anyone agrees that Christians should all be 'sent back', is being just as nasty as the teabaggers/birthers/racists. We need to teach, not be divisive. I am a Christian, but I'm also Gay, so I have had an effect on many people positively in opening their mind to respecting people for who they are, because we're all so many different things individually!

[jberryhill]

69. Yes you do...

"Jesus" is used as an expletive all of the time.

Jesus! Are you kidding me!

OMG I didn't realize that everyone on DU who used OMG - "Oh my God" - were praying.

[billh58]

87. Let's see...

The KKK and all other White-Supremacist groups use Christianity as justification for their hatred of almost everyone. The Religious-Right uses Christianity as the basis for their hatred of other religions, races, and sexes. Most die-hard Rednecks profess to be Christian. All of these groups will resort to some form of violence against fellow humans when it suits their purpose.

American Christian fundamentalists and radicals are no different from the fundamentalists and radicals of Islam, or Judaism, and all religious radicals use terrorism in one form or another to achieve their goals.

The other thing they all have in common, is the promise of a second shot at "life" in exchange for obedience, money, and a suspension of reason.

[BrklynLiberal]

138. Well said.

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

[Hissyspit]

108. Not quite.

What is it with DU these days?

[BrklynLiberal]

121. The Crusades and the Inquisition were led by people going AGAINST their religious leaders?

[me b zola]

169. Excuse me...

The idiots who blow up abortion clinics and shoot doctors whom perform abortions say that they are instructed by their faith to do so. They are largely given a sympathetic ear by the media.

[cherokeeprogressive]

50. Putting the shoe on the other foot only causes the wearer to walk in opposite circles.

[Are_grits_groceries]

53. Not unless you were walking in a circle to begin with. nt

[TCJ70]

55. No, ONLY if you were walking in circles in the first place...

...gah...I'm being a little too semantic here. But you can't walk in OPPOSITE circles without walking in some sort of circle first...

/end ridiculous

[urgk]

59. 2,391,421 people killed in the Bible. No wonder Christianity is so violent.

At least according to one estimate. "In a previous post, I counted the number of people that were killed by God in the Bible. I came up with 2,391,421, which, of course, greatly underestimates God's total death toll, since it only includes those killings for which specific numbers are given."

http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2006/08/who-has-killed-more-satan-or-god.html

[defendandprotect]

62. I agree . . .and that's not even looking at the past!!!

[ThisThreadIsSatire]

68. Time to bring back the lions... (!) nt

[billh58]

88. So many

Christians -- so few lions.

:evilgrin:

[Flatulo]

72. Facile analogy on many levels... I know it's satire, but it's still pretty lame.

99.9% of crimes commited in the US were perpetrated by people who drank milk. 99.9% of crimes were committed by people who had masturbated... watched Fox News Channel etc...you get the idea.

Data analysis has to include linkage to causality.

For the record, I am squarely in the agnostic camp and find all religious beliefs to be equally irrational and illogical. If I ever heard voices, I would immediately seek medical attention.

Also for the record, I think it is just PC nonsense to dismiss radical Islam as a non-problem just because the percentage of these nuts living in our society happens to be pretty small. If you go to the UK, France or Denmark, they have a much larger problem because the percentage of radical muslims is much larger and they have not assimilated to the dominant culture, which is more-or-less liberal and tolerant.

[AntiFascist]

101. Actually the parallels to Islamic extremism are quite stunning....

when you consider how a so-called religion of peace can become so perverted. Was not part of the reason we, as a Christian nation, were able to drop nuclear bombs on Japan because "we" viewed most of the Japanese as Buddhist heathens? What about the 100,000s of innocents killed in Iraq which many validate on the basis of Christian vs. Muslim? What about the many godless Communists killed in the Viet Nam war?

[Flatulo]

112. I think in the case of nuking the Japanese, revenge was a pretty

strong motivator. FDR made it quite clear that our goal was the complete and utter annhilitaion of the enemy.

And although we did not nuke Germany (didn't have the Bomb in time), we certainly bombed the living piss out of their civilian population, even though they were predominantly white Christians just like us.

I think you're more on target with the N. Vietnamese. They were definitely dehumanized by us.

[AntiFascist]

159. Revenge is usually the motivation....

but religious ideals allow us to reconcile the actual massive death.

It's also interesting to note that Pope John Paul himself once compared Communist ideals with those of true Christianity. This was plausibly the worst sin he could have committed against Christian fascists, possibly resulting in a plot to have him assassinated, then framing the assassination attempt with the usual suspects:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1981_Pope_John_Paul_II_assassination_attempt#The_Mitrokhin_Commission.27s_claims

The Bulgarian secret services have always protested their alleged involvement and argued that Ağca's story was an anti-Communist plant placed by the Grey Wolves, the Italian secret service, and the CIA - all three of whom had co-operated in NATO's secret Gladio network.<9> Gladio was at the time involved in Italy's strategy of tension, also followed in Turkey by Counter-Guerrilla, the Turkish branch of Gladio. The Pope's assassination would hereafter have taken place in this frame. Edward Herman has argued that Michael Ledeen, who was involved in the Iran-Contra Affair and had alleged ties to the Italian P2 masonic lodge also linked to Gladio, was employed by the CIA to propagate the Bulgarian theory.<21> Indeed, Le Monde diplomatique alleged that Abdullah Çatlı, a leader of the Grey Wolves, had organized the assassination attempt "in exchange for the sum of 3 million German Marks" for the Grey Wolves.<22> In Rome, Catli declared to the judge in 1985 "that he had been contacted by the BND, the German intelligence agency, which would have promised him a nice sum of money if he implicated the Russian and Bulgarian services in the assassination attempt against the Pope". According to colonel Alparslan Türkes, the founder of the Grey Wolves, "Catli has cooperated in the frame of a secret service working for the good of the state".<1>

[Flatulo]

205. Ironically, Jesus would probably be considered a communist today. nt

[JonQ]

171. The A-bomb was being developed primarily to drop on the germans

fellow christians. They just happened to surrender before it was completed. Actually there was alot of outrage that they still pushed ahead after the germans had surrendered.

[billh58]

104. What would

you call the assumption that a small percentage of "nuts" living in our society are members of "radical Islam" as opposed to "mainstream Islam?" Anti-PC nonsense? What percentage of the "nuts" living in our society profess to be Christian -- radical or otherwise? Your "for the record" assumptions rely mainly on biased views of an entire people and their culture, rather than their religion.

The point of the OP's satire and exaggeration was to point out that no society or people have a monopoly on extremism in the name of pedantic religious or political ideologies. Fundamentalist American Right-Wing Christians are no better, or worse, than fundamentalist Right-Wing Muslims, or fundamentalist Right-Wing Jews.

[Flatulo]

123. Not sure I understand your response...

> what do you call the assumption that a small percentage of "nuts" living in our society are members of "radical Islam" as opposed
> to "mainstream Islam?"

I call it an observation. I would personally find it much more troubing to see the percentage of radicalized Muslims in the US growing than the percentage of radicalized Christians. Radicalized Muslims are just no fun at all. At least you can mock the Christians and they don't fucking try to kill you.

[billh58]

151. I live in Hawaii

and I personally know over 100 Philipino, Indonesian, and Malay Muslims, none of which are radicals, nor terrorists. Most of them were born here, as were their parents. I also know an equal number of Buddhists, Catholics, Mormons, and Pentecostal Christians, and surprisingly none of them are either radicals nor terrorists. Most Americans do not "mix" with those of different ethnicities, or religions, and are prone to ascribing commonly held, but totally unwarranted "assumptions" to those who are somehow different.

Your assumption that there are a disproportionate percentage of radical Muslims in the USA who have committed acts of terrorism, as compared to radical Christians in the USA who have committed acts of terrorism, is not a valid "observation," but is based on a factless and false perception of an entire people. That is the point of the OP.

[Flatulo]

200. Where on earth did I say this?

Please read my post again more carefully.

I said this:

> I call it an observation. I would personally find it much more troubing to see the percentage of radicalized
> Muslims in the US growing than the percentage of radicalized Christians. Radicalized Muslims are just no fun at
> all. At least you can mock the Christians and they don't fucking try to kill you.

I clearly stated that I would be alarmed if the percentage of radicalized Muslims here were to grow. I did not state anywhere that I felt that their numbers here were larger, either absolutely or proportionately, than the numbers of radicalized Christians.

[billh58]

209. Meh...

"At least you can mock the Christians and they don't fucking try to kill you." Try telling that to almost any Muslim in Iraq, Pakistan, or Afghanistan who listen and wait for the next drone bomb to wipe out their neighborhood. Yeah, if they can't take a joke, fuck 'em.

I understand what you are attempting to say, but Islam is not the problem that the neoconservative, religious-right, Christians would have us believe that it is. Osama bin Laden, Al Qaeda, and the Taliban, are nothing more than antisocial psychopaths who are using Islam as a front for their criminal activities. The anti-Islamic panic that is gripping this country as a result, however, is very much like the anti-Japanese (Shinto) paranoia that swept the country after Pearl Harbor, and is both dangerous and un-American.

I don't like fanatical assholes who take out their anger and perceived grievances on innocent people, regardless of their ideological bent (OBL, Hasan, McVeigh, Roeder, etc.). By the same token, I don't like assholes who blindly take out their anger and perceived grievances on an entire group of people whose ideology (by itself) is not to blame.

[Flatulo]

216. I'm not trying to play word games here...

I am not trying to conflate mainstream Islam with the Wahabbis or Salifists This is going to sound cliche, but I too have friends from foreign countries who are muslim (Turks, Iranians, Egyptians) and they are without exception among the nicest people I know. Very educated, sophisticated and cultured.

But when you compare RW christians in America to looneys like the Taliban, who execute people for whistling or teaching a girl to read, I just don't see it.

With few exceptions, the RW christians in this country are preoccupied with fleecing little old ladies from the pulpit and getting prostitutes to shit on their chests when no one is looking. Unpleasant stuff, but nothing I lose even one minute of sleep over.

[billh58]

218. Please ask the

Southern Poverty Law Center, the ADL, the NAACP, and many other civil and religious rights groups about the statistics for the "unpleasant stuff" that you lose no sleep over. The religious-right extremists in the USA are the ones who set the stage for these hate crimes, and many people in fact DO lose sleep after the deaths of their friends and loved ones. ALL rednecks consider themselves superior "white Christians."

http://www.dominican.edu/query/ncur/display_ncur.php?id=99

Which gives some background for the necessity of this recent legislation:

http://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/civil-rights/67025-the-hate-crime-bill-is-now-law--whats-next

Your defense of the so-called "Christian" religious-right in this country is at least misplaced, and at best disingenuous. A radical extremist is a radical extremist regardless of their ideology -- religious, or otherwise.

[Flatulo]

237. Here's a homework assignment... find out how many

terror incidents were perpetrated worldwide by muslim radicals and compare it to the number perpetrated by christian radicals.

I'd be shocked if the christians were even a blip on the radar.

[billh58]

238. Do I get to include

the military forces of Christian Western Nations, and their "incidents" in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Pakistan?

You are, of course, correct in that individual criminals using Islam as an excuse perpetrate more incidents using terrorist tactics than do Christians worldwide -- but not in the USA (and yes I'm counting the Civil Rights wars). Looking at the numbers through the eyes of Muslims in the Middle East, however, the perception is that Christians commit more atrocities against civilians than do Muslims.

As stated in another post, we really need to define the term "terrorism" before assigning blame. Is terrorism defined only as an act of violence committed by a Muslim? Or, is terrorism a military tactic used by criminals around the world for centuries? Is terrorism confined to violence against innocent civilians for religious reasons? Or, can violence against both civilians and soldiers for military or monetary gain be termed as terrorism? Is a suicide bomber more of a terrorist than bomber pilot? Many questions, few answers.

The neoconservative, religious-right Judeo-Christians of the world have framed the term "terrorism" in such a way as to make it exclusive to the Arab and Muslim world, and have in essence re-ignited the Holy Wars. Who is more to blame: Judeo-Christians, or Muslims? What part do the vast oil reserves in the Middle East play in all of this? When Osama bin Laden, Al Qaeda, and the Taliban were fighting our Cold War enemies using the same tactics, we called them Freedom Fighters and supplied them with money and weaponry. When Saddam was at war with Iran, we supported him and his brutality. What changed? Is it only "terrorism" when it's used against Western Christians?

And please remember, like the "Troubles" in Northern Ireland, the Muslim/Judeo-Christian animosity is centuries old, and both sides fight with the biggest sticks they have on hand. The bright spot in all of this, is that none of the current mainstream religious leaders support the acts of their followers who use religion as an excuse for criminal behavior. Those radical priests, rabbis, mullahs, and preachers who DO support hatred and violence, and the politicians who enable them, are the real enemies of the world -- in both the Western World, AND the Middle East.

[Flatulo]

240. I get your point, and I can't undo the Crusades or the last millenium

of greviences. The muslim world's beef with the West go back a long way.

However, the current wave of hostilities started more or less with the '83 marine barracks bombings, escalated to the '92 WTC bombings and continued to escalate for the next decade with the only response of the US being retreat. This escalation culminated with the 9/11 attacks, which prompted the invasion of two countries, which also hasn't worked out very well, so I certainly don't know what the solution is.

It's a tough nut to crack. Apocolyptic religious nuts see the lack of a response to an attack as weakness, and the presence of a response as justification for further violence and martyrdom.

[AntiFascist]

243. It doesn't help matters...

when covert entities have enabled terrorism at every step of the way. Keep in mind that the response to 9-11 has been a tremendous cash cow for certain elements of the military industrial complex and has also advanced their agenda. Many of the most powerful of the PTB simply don't want terrorism to be eliminated, in fact they want it to get worse. Who cares so much about the failing economy when you have scary pictures of jihadists all over the place?

[Fire1]

187. Exactly. Kos dropped the ball on this one. n/t

[JoeyT]

221. While your point about radical Islam in the UK is correct.

Ireland, India, Romania, Russia, Uganda, and a bunch of other countries have much worse problems with Christian extremists blowing things up, killing people, or practicing gunpoint conversions.
The US has problems with them too. The Christian Identity Movement, KKK, Army of God, Lambs of Christ, etc. These people aren't yelling Nietzsche to get themselves worked into a killing frenzy.

Which kind of ties into the point I think the OP was trying to make. It's perfectly fine to shout "Islamo-facist terrorist!" until you're blue in the face on television, even if you're talking about a guy that looks kinda like a Muslim getting a jaywalking ticket. Were a news anchor or any other public figure to dare speak the words "christian" and "terrorist" in the same sentence, they'd be yanked from the public eye so fast it would violate the laws of physics. You'll notice when things explode people usually start shrieking about how it was probably a Muslim terrorist. If it's later discovered the bomber was a Christian, the word terrorist mysteriously vanishes into the aether, never to be mentioned in connection with that incident ever again. It's about double standards.

There's also an argument to be made that people that think they're going to an afterlife are probably less likely to be concerned with getting locked up or killed in this one. Non-believers are about 15% of the population of the US, but we're less than 1% of the prison population. It isn't the religion's fault, but it does give them a convenient excuse.

[hfojvt]

74. turns out that Brian Smith is a Mormon, not a Christian

but that's okay. Satire doesn't have to be factually accurate as long as it's properly insulting.

Kinda funny, or not, that the standard response was not "yeah, mass stereotyping a religion is unfair" as was supposedly the point of the essay. Instead the response has been either "yeah, Christianity sucks" or the broader "yeah, religion sucks".

[Sebastian Doyle]

78. Mormons consider themselves Christians (though the fundagelicals disagree)

The church is formally called "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints", and Joseph Smith claimed that he was "restoring the original church" on orders directly from JC and his dad Elohim.

[Initech]

77. I like what George Carlin said:

"We could outlaw religion and most of these crimes would disappear in a couple of generations, but we dont have time for rational solutions!!!!"

[BrklynLiberal]

139. The man was a genius...

[liberal_at_heart]

144. I love George Carlin but I disagree

Religion is just a vehicle. Human beings have been fighting over money and power for centuries and although religous people claim to be fighting over religion most of the time they are just fighting for money and power. Take religion out of it and they would still fight for money and power.

[JonQ]

83. I very much doubt 99% of crimes were committed by christians

that would suggest they are committing crimes far out of proportion to their numbers. Considering only 78.4% identify themselves as christian. I suspect that number was entirely made up.

Anyway, the question is whether certain groups are committing acts of terrorism out of proportion to their population size.

Completely hypothetical but lets say 3/4s the population is christian and 1/4 muslim. And muslim/christian acts of terrorism occur in equal numbers.

Which religion correlates with terrorism more?

[Are_grits_groceries]

86. That loud whooshing sound you hear is

the point of the post sailing right over your head.

[JonQ]

92. Oh I get the point alright

it's unfair to criticize muslims because christians have committed more crimes in the US.

It just fails to take in to account population size. So it is inaccurate.

For instance: Blacks and hispanics commit far more crimes than white CEOs in total numbers. Therefore looking for any sort of trend of lawlessness in our top echelons is not only unnecessary but racist as well.

[Are_grits_groceries]

97. Hear that whoosh again??? You should. nt

[JonQ]

102. You have the perfect combination

of rude, incorrect, stubborn (especially in refusing to admit that you are wrong) and condescending that makes for just a delightful human being.

[billh58]

105. Your insistence

that the OP is either right, or wrong, is complete evidence of totally missing the point of its satire and purposeful exaggeration.

On the other hand, your portrayal of all (most?) American Muslims as belonging to a sect of radical Islam is bigoted and laughable (even if that were the point of the OP). It has nothing to do with "percentages," but rather with perceptions. Condescending? Look closer my friend...

[Name removed]

110. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[billh58]

118. Thanks for the lecture

but I believe that my ability to read between the lines is far superior to yours, and I sincerely believe that you are a bigot with some anger issues. But then again, you may just be "reaching out."

At my age, sex with a 50-year old woman would make me a pedophile...;-)

[JonQ]

124. Let's get back to the crux of the issue

The "satire" is supposedly skewering christians for unfairly blaming muslims for committing crimes by pointing out that christians do it too and do not recieve the same level of criticism.

This is false in many ways.
1) no one claims all muslims are terrorists.
2) muslims DO commit more acts of terrorism in this country than their total numbers would allow, which raises questions. If christians represent 70% of the population and commit 70% of crimes that doesn't really prove much. If muslims represent 5% of the population and commit 30% of the acts of terrorism that suggests there is some correlation between religion and terrorism.
3) Christianity is blamed on here when ever christian terrorists act, I trust you weren't around for the tiller murder but christianity was routinely bashed as being the cause of this crime. There are no similiar threads about muslim terrorists. On here if anything the bias is in favor of muslims.

And on a personal note I am an atheist, but that doesn't mean I can't recognize when christians are held to a different standard on here than other faiths, and I have no personal animosity towards any religion, but I do think numbers and statistical trends are relevant, and not racist.

What you call "reading between the lines" I would call "making stuff up".

[billh58]

133. "Satire"

like any other form of humor (and beauty) is in the eyes and ears of the beholder or reader. I got the OP's point right out of the box, and did not read anything into the piece that demanded that I take the "statistics" at face value. I immediately recognized the obvious exaggerations, and found humor in them.

There is definitely an anti-Islam mindset in this country, and is mainly coming from those who fervently believe that the United States of America was founded as, and remains, a fundamentalist "Christian" country.

The very percentages that you point out (small number of Muslims vs. large number of Christians) belie your argument that Muslim fanatics carry out a disproportionate number of "terrorist" attacks in the US.

Chill out, and try to have some fun dude -- it's Saturday...;-)

[JonQ]

176. Finding faults with it

does not equal "not getting the point". Like if you tell a joke and no one laughs it's possible they didn't get it, it's also possible it was a terrible joke. In this case the satire was rather obvious, not a lot of subtlety or wit involved actually. It just wasn't well done. And I called him out on that, and because of that apparently I'm a bigot, despite not having preconceived prejudices. Apparently bigot = someone who disagrees with me, good to know, ya bigot!

"There is definitely an anti-Islam mindset in this country, and is mainly coming from those who fervently believe that the United States of America was founded as, and remains, a fundamentalist "Christian" country."

And on this site, how would you say that balance swings? Exactly.

"The very percentages that you point out (small number of Muslims vs. large number of Christians) belie your argument that Muslim fanatics carry out a disproportionate number of "terrorist" attacks in the US."

You don't understand proportions then. If a large population commits a larger number in total, but smaller number in percentage of some particular act compared to a smaller population (with fewer acts, but more as a percentage) then it is the smaller population that is disproportionately committing more acts of whatever per person. You should get that if you are as old as you claim.

"Chill out, and try to have some fun dude -- it's Saturday... ;-)"

Right back at you, unless your idea of fun is uncalled for personal attacks. It seems you have a bit too much vitriol to be enjoying yourself here.

[billh58]

182. Meh...

You still haven't addressed my question about the "disproportionate amount of terorist attacks in the USA committed by Muslims." The last I heard, pointing out fallicies in an argument does not constitute personal attacks, but you on the other hand...

No vitriol whatsoever, just trying to do my part at eradicating ignorance one person at a time. And, FWIW, I live in Hawaii and I AM having fun in between sessions on DU...;-)

[JonQ]

186. You called me a bigot

by "reading between the lines" ie, lying. So don't try to pretend you didn't.

And muslims constitute .6% of the population.

Would you say they have committed A) less than .6% of terrorist attacks in the US, B) more than, C) exactly that amount?

[JoeyT]

223. Depends on your definition of terrorism.

What are we calling terrorism?
Can we call burning crosses in yards, an act clearly intended to incite terror in a population, terrorism?
Can we call dragging someone behind a pickup truck until they die terrorism?
What about burning at the stake, crushing, or dunking?
Beating up people for being a different religion?
Death threats against students that report teachers that violate the separation of church and state?
Violence against gay people?
Death threats and being run out of town on a rail for teachers that teach evolution?
Harassment, death threats, and actually killing OB/GYN doctors?
Throwing stuff at and spitting on women at clinic protests?
Lynching? Is lynching terrorism?
(This could run on for pages, but I'll go ahead and cut it off here.)
Is it only terrorism if white people are killed? I KNOW that's the definition the right wing uses. I'm pretty sure that isn't your definition. I'm not going to assume you're a bigot. In fact, given where we are, I'm assuming you aren't.
Does terrorism require a burning building? Does a charge of murder need to have arson or destruction of property added to it before it becomes terrorism?

If we use the word terrorism to mean what the word actually means, which is "the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion" then I'd say they commit a hell of a lot more than anyone else, even adjusted for population. So the answer is B by a ridiculous amount. If we define terrorism as "something Muslims do that Christians don't", as you seem to be doing, then I'm sure the answer is probably A.

You seem to think the "All Christians are terrorists!" meme is being pushed here. It isn't. People aren't even suggesting *most* Christians are terrorists. They're simply pointing out the double standards that exist for the two religions. I don't recall TV personalities screaming that all Christians had to distance themselves from Roeder. I don't see a lot of "Christian Americans need to call out their extremists if they don't want to be lumped in with them." coming from elected officials.

By the way, the 99% was exaggeration to make a point. The actual numbers are 79%ish Christian, 82% of the prison population are Christian. It doesn't sound like much of a difference, until you take into consideration that about 80% of the conversions in prison are to Islam.

[Are_grits_groceries]

106. Perfection is what I strive for daily.

You have drawn one point that you will see forever. Okay. Whatever.

My point is and was that if you substitute any group into that post with some numbers that may be exact or not, you have broadbrushed an entire group. In this case, Christians got the shellacking.

Broadbrushing any group is wrong.

You didn't like it much when Christians got put in the queue and have spent your time and effort debunking the numbers. It must have hit a nerve. Now you may know how it feels when somebody in another group feels when they read generalizations about their classification no matter what it is.

[JonQ]

111. Oh yes you have shown me the light!

It is so unfair to completely make up numbers and invent incidents to bash a particular religious group.

Now, who exactly has done this that you are parodying? I can't recall the newspapers inventing acts of terrorism and assigning them to muslims, perhaps you would be so kind as to point those out?

[Are_grits_groceries]

115. I think you better back up to your post #110.

I have nothing more to say to you. You have leveled a very serious charge at another member of DU.

I don't know why you felt possessed to post such a thing, but I think you need to back off.

[JonQ]

116. He called me a racist and a bigot

based on no evidence. I called him something equivalent, based on the same evidence.

Such a sensitive dear aren't you?

[Are_grits_groceries]

122. Let me tell you one thing and let me tell you right now!

No names are good. However, don't you EVER, EVER call somebody a pedophile unless you are sure, and then you better call the police.

That is one of the most, if not the most, horrendous crimes imaginable. It has no place on this board ever!

It is not something to trivialize by using it to call somebody a name.

You better believe I am sensitive to that kind of thing.

Edit: and you change the word to liar all you want. You still posted pedophile, and you should be ashamed. If you aren't, then you need to learn what harm molesting a child can do.

It isn't a 'name.'

[Name removed]

126. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JonQ]

177. Yawn

censorship and bad jokes, pretty lame.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

212. So I won't find your name in any of those Glenn Beck or Limbaugh threads eh?

[billh58]

130. Nope.

Go back and re-read. I said that your assumption that most Muslims are members of radical sects of Islam while defending Christians was bigoted. I mentioned absolutely nothing about "racism."

In any event, you have shown your propensity for vitriol and anger, so I have no desire to further your hissyfit. Go in peace and and try and get some rest...;-)

[JonQ]

131. You shouldn't make such accusations

without evidence, that is impolite.

I believe the hatred and vitriol accusation would more fairly be leveled at those who initiated personal attacks based on zero evidence.

[Are_grits_groceries]

135. Meh!

You called someone a renowned pedophile. You can call me a liar all you want, but I know what you wrote before I got 'sensitive,' and you edited it. You are mistaking vitriol and hatred for outrage.

I have seen a lot of posts, names and flames, but that is beyond the pale.

[billh58]

140. I never claimed

to be either polite, or neat. Your choice of a term to use as a flame-throwing slam, however, was a tad juvenile, but totally predictable.

:hi:

[JonQ]

178. So out of the blue accusations of bigotry

not substantiated by facts are the mature response?

Ok, you racist. :eyes:

[billh58]

183. LOL!

For a religious bigot, you're funny... :bounce:

[JonQ]

181. Seems I'm not the only one who had issues with your "satire"

I suppose they are all bigots as well.

Anyone I contest the use of the word satire to describe this screed as satire implies a certain amount of wit, which is distinctly absent.

[billh58]

184. Something about

never match wits with an unarmed (fill in the blank)? There seems to be a majority in agreement with the OP here, and most of those who disagree do so with true wit and grace. You, on the other hand... :crazy:

P.S. I am finished with you, so you may have the last whiny word.

[Paladin]

99. Just Can't Let Go Of The Hatred, Can You? (n/t)

[JonQ]

100. Hatred and statistics

are very different things.

Noting statistically significant trends is not an emotion.

[billh58]

109. Meh...

I have a red pencil box...

[JonQ]

114. I'm proud of you

thanks for sharing.

[billh58]

136. That's an old line

from a Benny Hill show of long ago, and for a while stood as the epitome of "I don't have a clue, but I'll say something anyway."

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

214. Pot meet Kettle. That's priceless coming from you.

[Liberty Belle]

93. But what % of all Americans are Christians? If it's in the 90s, that's a meaningless observation

[southernyankeebelle]

117. I wouldn't say majority of catholics are on Wall Street or in the Banks.

[anonymous171]

143. Let's not talk about the religious make-up of those institutions.

[Fire1]

132. I think there's a big difference between Christians and

fanatics and yes, there have been misguided wars in the name of Christianity. Since you know your history so well, you also know, there are many positive things that have derived from the "modern" day Christian church. How does the FBI determine who a Christian is and who is not?
Charles Manson is certainly not a Christian and by the same token, there have been crazies across the universe on a killing rampage b/c "the voice of God" told them to do it and "rid the world of sin." I don't classify such people as "Christians." I classify them as mentally imbalanced.

[anonymous171]

141. THEY ARE THREATENIN' ARGH CULCHURE I TELL YA! nt

[Are_grits_groceries]

148. CHANGE 'CHRISTIANS' TO 'REPUBLICANS'!

Maybe that will help. It wasn't meant to start the Crusades or the response to them.

[billh58]

153. LOL! n/t

[spoony]

154. Lol, you know

even I got the satire, and I'm usually among the first to get my quills up when I see (actual) broad-brushing of the religious. I thought it was pretty clear!

[Are_grits_groceries]

158. A lot of people just want to quarrel or

they hear that whooshing sound too as the point sails over their heads.

[liberal_at_heart]

160. lol

[BrklynLiberal]

149. K&R

[colsohlibgal]

150. Messed Up On God

Religious insanity/zealotry is an enormous problem here just as it is elsewhere. "Jesus Camp" is one of the scariest films I've seen, it's sick that they are setting out to brainwash innocent youths. So many millions over time have been tortured or killed just for believing something else than the people handing out the punishment.

I would hope that the day will come when all people can live in peace believing what they choose about the big picture - and when religious beliefs play no part in any government.

[valerief]

152. Excellent! nt

[bowens43]

156. I have always said that there is a much greater

threat to our freedom from Christianity then there is from Islam. We won't allow fundamentalist Islam to take away our freedom but we'll gladly hand it over to fundamentalist Christianity. Unfortunately , our politicians are scared to death of the Christian right.

All deity based religion should be discouraged. I find it hard to believe that in this day and age there are still so many who are slaves to the mythology of bronze age goat herders.

[2Design]

179. exactly n/t

[mdmc]

190. thanks for posting

peace and low stress

[Sinti]

191. LOL - I thought it was funny

I can't believe it started such flames.

[Hekate]

197. Don't forget our radical Christian clerics, while you're at it: Pat Roberts and that bunch...

... aren't exactly sweetness and light.

Nice piece of satire -- too bad so many here choose not to get the point.

Hekate

[Catamount]

198. Totally agree in very way!

K&R

[paulsby]

206. ridiculous analogy

if people can't differentiate between a religious person committing a crime IN THE NAME of his religion or because he was ideologically driven BY HIS RELIGION, and a crime that a person who belongs to that religion happens to commit, then they need a brain transplant

for example, hasan isn't being correctly pointed out as an extremist islamic murderer, merely because he happens to be muslim.

any more than a muslim who shoplifted, would there religion be relevant.

hasan shouted allahu akbar while committing the crime. how many christians shouted "jesus rocks" before doing their crime? certainly not all of them. duh

hasan gave away copies of the koran right before his shootign spree, something his neighbors say they had never seen him do

he made posts on the internet supporting, according to his interpretation of islam, suicide bombers

etc. etc.

christian criminal religion is noted and concentrated on WHEN it's RELEVANT. see: abortion clinic bombers, etc.

[Touchdown]

226. I think crimes by christians are driven by their christianity, simply because their "saved"

Their "saved", therefore they can do what ever they like, act as nasty as they like, and be as hateful and violent as they like, because the crime/act of terrorism is forgiven even before the act is planned.

Get out of sin free card. It's why Christianity is such a great insurance policy for criminals, and very popular among the corporate thieves destroying lives as well.

Every crime committed by a Christian is RELEVANT, because of the auto-forgiveness clause. Otherwise they might think twice about knocking off that liquor store/raping that skank/killing that fag/cheating on that wife/embezzling that money from that boss, etc. There's always Sunday, and the slate is wiped clean. Quite a racket!

That "once saved, all is fine" thing is also good when a Christian claims there is a false analogy between violence by muslims and violence by Christians... But you are already forgiven by your Sun God for omitting a very important part of your religion, because it falsifies your point, so I guess no harm done.;)

[paulsby]

239. that's a facile

piece of rubbish and you know it.

the real world (tm) can distinguish between people who are motivated by, and who commit a crime in the name of religion and people who aren't.

let's look at another comparison.

please show me the last time a director who offended christians had to go in hiding out of fear for their life.

please show me the last time a director who offended christians got murdered for offending a view of christianity

please show me a predominantly christian religiously run state that still has slavery

please show me christians rioting, murdering, and threatening people over a cartoon

etc.
etc.

specious analogies are specious analogies.

i have interviewed or interrogated hundreds of criminals. in NONE of those crimes were the crimes motivated in any way by religion. sorry, but your silly response fails.

there are christians who commit crimes in the name of christianity (their twisted version), such as abortion clinic bombers. the VAST majority of criminals do not

[Touchdown]

241. Don't agree. The get out of sin "I'm saved" card is an easy pass to do anything...

Whether in the name of religion or not.

What is facile is that you narrow your demand to film directors in this question, leaving out heads of state (Chavez, Clinton, Obama), Scientists (Dawkins), Authors (Harris, Hitchens, Signoreli), and political gadflies (Michael Moore). Awfully convenient for you to set the terms of my response by limiting it to specific subjects. How typically Christian of you! The narrowing of a "cartoon" as well. DaVinci Code isn't a cartoon, so that apparently doesn't count with you.:eyes:

And for the record, Martin Scorsese received hundreds of death threats from Christians when his film The Last Temptation of Christ was in production. Those threats exploded into tens of thousands when it was released. Did he go into "hiding" like your narrow criteria demands? I don't know, but death threats seem to be enough to cause concern. Even Salman Rushdie is still writing books and on the talk show circuit.

You've interviewed hundreds of criminals. Did you ask all of them if they believed in Jesus? Why no! That wouldn't be pertinent to the investigation. They didn't do it "because of Jesus" They just did it because they're going to Heaven anyway, so what's to lose? If they know they're going to be rewarded in Heaven no matter what they do on Earth, as long as they claim Jesus as lord and savior, then all bets are off on anything else they do to the "Secular humanists" among them, whether they claim "God told me to" or not.

[paulsby]

242. again, this is a ridiculous argument

lots of christians (not to mention jews and muslims) believe they are going to heaven even IF they commit crimes, as long as they are truly repentant, bla bla

if you can't distinguish that, from people who commit crimes BECAUSE of religion (their twisted version thereof), then there really is no hope for you.

the vast majority of christian and muslim criminals are criminals. their motivation is greed, recklessness, pleasure seeking, etc. like any criminal, regardless of religion.

the %age of crimes that are motivated by religion is small. ANY criminologist knows this.

your argument, which is ridiculous, is that because (some) christians believe that they will go to heaven even if they do bad things, that therefore this means that their religion is relevant to the crimes committed.

i am sorry if you cannot grok the distinction

[Touchdown]

244. Nope! Wrong! Christianity is a ridiculous belief!

And like a typical Christian, you ignore what's in your face, and a key tenet of your faith. Also typically Christian of you is the non-response to anything else I said, including the answer you demanded of me. You framed them rhetorically, I answered them with facts.

When you believe in talking snakes and a virgin who has babies, then anything is justifiable.

Statistics and facts are sound arguments. The United States has the largest church going, actively faithful Christian population in the industrialized world. It also has the largest violent crime rate by far of any other industrialized nation. Connections between the two have not been made between the two, because nobody wants to upset the Christian majority.

[paulsby]

245. again, with the ridiculous

why do you assume i'm a christian?

you can't deal with facts, if you are making such ridiculous assumptions.

the facts are clear. hasan's religion is relevant in his crimes because there is metric assloads of evidence that his (twisted version of) adherence to islam is directly related to his motivation for his crimes.

that is not true with most crimes committed by people of any religion, or of no religion. heck, some crimes have even been motivated by atheism.

but most crimes committed by atheists or theists are not MOTIVATED by their beliefs (or lack thereof)

the vast majority of crimes are motivated by very simple desires: greed, lust, anger, revenge, etc.

not religion.

that you won't (i won't even use can't. i'll give you some credit) admit this is typical of moral equivalence crowd.

[Touchdown]

246. I assume because you talk like one, and are segmenting your arguments like one.

If you are not, then you have been trained well in the culture.

I know that most crimes are motivated by those "7 deadly sins".

Hasan's religion is only relevant in a court case where the facts are presented, and argued by counsels. Not by a cop on a message board (who has no facts, but is presenting his argument as factual) who already has The perp tried and convicted with motive.

Still nothing on the death threats by other Christians... including the filmmaker you narrowed your demands for.

[paulsby]

247. i prefer not to debate with people

who are blatantly prejudiced and bigoted.

there is no reason to assume i am a christian, or even a theist for that matter.

you exercised prejudice by doing so. what next? opining about my ethnicity or sexual orientation because of the way i "segment my arguments"

all you do is expose your bias

hasan's religion is relevant outside of court.

as far as the TRIAL goes, all that is LEGALLY relevant, is testimony and evidence accepted into that court .

as far as public discussion goes all kinds of stuff is relevant.

yes, you are correct- filmmakers have been threatened by christians, or more correctly, people who purport to be christians (since the threats are mostly anonymous)

but they are idle threats.

the threats by radical muslims are not idle, since thye have backed up their threats with murder.

scorcese never went into hiding. rushdie did.

and no director of any film viewed as anti-christian has ever been murdered based on their filmography.

artists have (for example) dipped crucifixes in urine and smeared dung for a portrayal of mary.

no artist i am aware of has done the same with the koran, and there is a reason why they don't. because you can pick on christianity or judaism, (or wicca or hinduism) in the US w.o fear. these religions have gone through a reformation. radical islam is stuck in the middle ages, and responds to ridicule with violence.

if you doubt this, then go ahead and publically declare you are going to dip a koran in urine. and then do so, publically. see what happens

radical islam has thus installed a heckler's veto. which is injurious to free speech and debate

heck, most mainstream US publications would not evne print the offending cartoons due to fear, some were honest enough to admit that as motivation.

your idea that incident facts cannot be discussed outside of trial by the lay public is absurd. there is no such precept in the law or in common sense. people on this message board readily speak of incident facts for all sorts of cases before trial, heck many that have never GONE to trial (see: bush and war crimes for instance)

spare me

[Touchdown]

248. Thank you for proving my point.

:hi:

My prejudice screeds against Christians, is directly related to your "concerns" about Islam. Both sides of the same hand.

And... Rushdie is still alive. Tiller is not.

I do agree with the assessment that Islam is still in the middle ages, and thus less flexible to it's rules. That does not absolve the other religions of their deadly tendencies. The other two do their killing with state militaries now (so much for reformations), and the third still adheres to a caste system.

[paulsby]

249. it's not concern

with scare quotes, and it's not about islam.

it's about RADICAL islam.

and i clearly made that distinction

i define radical islam as exemplified by people who will kill or advocate killing apostates. it's VERY difficult to find christians or jews who think apostates of their religions should be killed. it's easy to find radical islamists who believe this, and in fact murders have been carried out many times, for such transgressions.

if people support suicide bombers (as hasan did) , they are part of radical islam. just as if somebody supports abortion clinic bombers, or the murders of dr's who practice abortion, one is a radical christian.

a quarter of young muslim americans support suicide bombers (according to pew research)

find me a poll that shows anywhere near that # of christians or jews who support bombing abortion clinics and the people therein.

two things are clear. one, that the vast majority of crimes are not religiously justified by the perps (something you can't or won't admit to grasping)

two, radical islamists are more prevalent as a %age of muslim population than radical crhistians, or radical jews, as defined as above.

[Touchdown]

253. You define. You challenge me another narrow BS shit again. You are a real rule maker here!

Well, two can play at that game. George Bush tried to get France to go with us in invading Iraq because of the biblical prophecy of "Gog and Magog". It's been openly reported on in France and confirmed by the PM. I define radical as in a President who is so deep into a religion that he embarrasses his country, and kills more than 500,000 people in two countries because of some acid trip book at the end of the Bible.

So with that. "Find a poll that shows anywhere near that #... abortion clinics.

69% of American conservative Christians supported the Iraq Invasion before the invasion began. 54% of these same Christians support Israeli actions against "Palestinian Terrorism".

So you say, what does that have to do with crimes motivated by religion? Simple, just because a head of state makes it legal does not make it good, acceptable, or less violent.

Crimes... No... Bush made them legal. Gen. Boykin said our God is bigger than their God, in reference to islam in Iraq The aforementioned Christians who supported it to 69% support it because it is an epic battle between good (Christian) against evil (Islam). Their support of Israel is also biblically based, as the jews are expected to convert when Jesus comes back or they will be slaughtered. To say it's just about oil, economic leverage. WMDs, Daddy's Attempted killer, or whatever, no armed conflict in this region of the world is completely devoid of religion. No matter which side one falls on the Israeli/Palestinian conflict it must be agreed that the entire basis, the very foundation of the violence is religiously based. That God/Allah/Yahweh gave this plot of dirt to the Hebrews, or to the Philistines depending on which of these two Tooth Fairies talks to them. Everything that transpired since does not change that fact.

I see no difference between the fanatic who straps a bomb to his chest and a redneck who kills a family planning doctor because some preacher or radio show host implied that it would be good to. Said radio hosts have also explained how to murder ATF agents as well. EVERY instance of gay bashing is religiously based. Without a religious basis for bigotry, then there would be no implicit sanctions for gay bashing. There is no parsing that. Islam beheads gays, to be sure, but the Dominionists/dispensationalists in this country want to stone us to death. What's the difference? About 35 million of them voted for Sarah Palin in the last election. I also see no difference between GWB and the but who killed Dr. Tiller. The difference? GWB killed a few hundred thousand more.

It's not that Christians are criminals in their actions, it's just that they're to chickenshit to try it, because the game is coming on. A poor muslim not in a royal family has nothing to lose.

[imdjh]

208. Not clever. False equation, and I say this even though Christians are on my shitlist right now.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

210. Dallas dem is an idiot of the highest order.

[snailly]

211. Oh please.

Grow up.

-agnostic

[Withywindle]

217. I had a really unpleasant "Christian experience" today.

Leaving work at 1:30 this afternoon, at State and Adams in Chicago. We get a lot of street preachers, and usually, y'know, whatever, I can just kind of ignore them. Mostly they're pretty benign.

But this trio of young guys - wearing some kind of robes, having a cardboard sign about the "12 Tribes" of something or other I didn't want to get close enough to read...the dude in the middle had a microphone and was screaming about all the kinds of people HIS god says are damned...he actually started yelling about "YOU FUCKING FAGGOTS, YOU LESBIANS, HO'S..."

Yeah, free speech, yadda yadda, but as soon as I got on the bus, I called 311 (non-emergency police number) and reported a nuisance anonymously. I just said to the operator, "You know, I don't think all these families out shopping, little kids, etcetera, need to hear that kind of language."

It really got my blood up. I have not heard that kind of open violent hate speech in broad daylight in quite a while, at least when I wasn't prepared for it. I mean, I've done women's clinic defense and KKK counterdemonstrations and the like, so I'm at least psyched for it then. There's no reason people just walking down the street, mind their own business, maybe wanting to go into the CVS drugstore they were loitering in front of, should have to listen to that.

edit: i suppose I ought to make up some story about how I heroically confronted them, but the truth is, they were three men, I'm a single skinny woman, and I had somewhere else to be. So I called the cops. And I'm fine with that. I hope they got a LOT of complaints.

[JoeyT]

224. You did exactly the right thing.

Even if you were a 'roided out man that was 6'6" and 300 pounds of solid muscle, it generally isn't a good idea to confront a bunch of crazy people. Especially when you're outnumbered.

Edited to add: And I'm sure they got a ton of complaints.

[Withywindle]

227. Thanks. I really just felt assaulted.

And in a way I was, because their hate speech was aimed at ME and the people I care about, and I FELT it. Ugh. Spiritual ICK. I just wanted to buy some lip balm and a bus pass and some allergy meds, before going to off to an afternoon book club, y'know? The most mundane of the mundane. And all of a sudden there was this random nasty verbal assault on my very existence, in the name of "god."

FUCK that. And fuck confronting them directly - I don't give a rat's ass about their fucked-up convoluted theological justifications and I don't care to hear it and I don't care to risk myself dealing with it. I just want them to preach their hate in some crappy little cinderblock room somewhere, to all 10 of their buddies who agree with it, and leave the rest of the universe alone.

I'm really glad they were using profanity and sexual slurs loudly in front of children in the middle of the tourist shopping season. If playing that angle up to the cops is what it takes to get them removed, I will exploit that angle freely.

[Divine Discontent]

254. I commend you for what you did in seeing them - but it's not a "Christian experience" imho. It's a

rabid religious cult group drumming up trouble and trying to keep people down under the guise of Christianity.

The OP, that I will take as satire, that is written because of the broad brushstroke assault on different types of people when religious groups twist facts, points out that putting people together can make an entirely different viewpoint. All Christians are not warmongers. If a Christian who follows the Prince of Peace really believes in love of their neighbor - there would be no warring. That is not the case, because many Christians are for preemptive warring, and many are for the death penalty for really evil acts. And so, I can't agree that your experience was a Christian one. It was a hate attack cloaked in religion rather poorly (the cursing and name-calling).

I am so glad you called on those sick miscreants.

[Withywindle]

257. I hear what you're saying, I really do.

I know there are Christians who really walk the walk, or at least do their best, and would never ever indulge in hate. I've seen your posts around and I know you are one of them. I appreciate that, I really do. Thank you.

It's just wearying, that there are so many bigots and authoritarians and haters out there, and so many of them use the language of religion, and our society sanctions it and even people here argue we're not allowed to confront bigotry and try to shut it down because it's their "deeply held faith."

Well, my deeply held faith is that religion doesn't justify hate, never has, and never will, and all ideas, religious or not, stand or fall on their merits.

When religion reinforces compassion and understanding and standing up for others--as it often does, I know--then that is full of merit. When religion reinforces hate and judgment and cruelty--as it often does--then that needs to be criticized, strongly.

Those guys consider THEMSELVES Christians. They probably think anyone who doesn't hate "sin" as energetically as they do isn't a "true" Christian. After enough centuries of that, the brand name does get kind of devalued.

[Djarun]

219. Doh!

Jeebus is behind the couch!

[Withywindle]

220. I have a BIG problem with any religion that takes evangelizing, proselytizing, and conversion of as

as many souls as possible as tenets.

That believe their way is the ONLY way and therefore, shoving their faith down various people's throats by any means necessarily is not only tolerable but ENCOURAGED.

Christianity and Islam have this in common, which is why both creep me out way more than Judaism, which doesn't subscribe to this belief. (Converting to Judaism is actually pretty difficult, and you have to do a lot of studying and proving that you're serious. Which, IMO, is as it should be.)

Sue me, but I think global spiritual biodiversity is very important, and any religion that wants to be a global monoculture like McDonald's and Starbucks, crowding out all the local faiths wherever they go, creeps me the fuck out. I find it metaphysically repellent.

Christianity and Islam, like Judaism, came out of a relatively tiny little corner of the world that I've never been to and probably never will. Judaism, UNLIKE Christianity and Islam, respects my space and independence as a member of the Other Peoples of the Old Testament, not subject to Yahweh's laws, then, or now. Unless I choose to be. Which I don't.

[Autonomy]

222. There is a real inequity described in your post

"And while gunpowder may have been discovered by the Chinese, just about every weapon of modern civilization has been developed by Christian scientists and engineers."

Every modern weapon, and every modern technological advancement, incuding medicine and all the other good ones. I've no point here, at least not one that is not a total non sequitur. It's just interesting.

[DeSwiss]

225. Nicely put.

I am now giving you a Full Standing Keyboard Ovation!!!!!

And let's also not forget to mention those white-collar Catholic kid-diddlers. the ones set loose upon us by the never wrong Popey's plan to play musical chairs with his pedos. Nor the Lear Jet flying, White-tooth smiling, Pompadoured hair wearing, fraudsters either!

K&R

http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2006/05/12/geraldrobinson_narrowweb__300x457,0.jpg



- And then sometimes they even let their own kids die for nothing. And it's all done tax-free.......

[BillDU]

228. Mixed bag of trix

I call bullshit on your stats..
although I sympathize with your ideas.

[truthrocks]

229. READ "THE FAMILY" BY JEFF SHARLET! "CHRISTIAN" POLITICS IS

a seriously pernicious movement - C Street is just the tip of the iceberg - we need to pay attention

http://www.talk2action.org/story/2009/11/10/192635/30

:rant:

[PatrynXX]

231. Gahndi has a line for that N/T

[Are_grits_groceries]

232. This was a general piece of satire

meant to illustrate how people broadbrush groups using specious statistics.

If you are caught up in finding out if the stats used are correct, don't be. People pull numbers out of thin air to support their claims about different groups a lot.

The OP doesn't have one word in it about Muslims or Islam, but people jumped on that train in a nanosecond.

As I said, change the word 'Christian' to 'Republican' in the OP. It is still making the same point.

Some people have dissected and parsed every word in the OP. There have been elaborate analyses of the OP. It was meant to be a simple post from a diarist with a simple message.

We now return to the regularly scheduled squabbling.

[Kolesar]

234. But when US fighters wrote "Happy Ramadan" on bombs for Desert Storm,

... the US fighters put some truth to this satire. It sure as hell seems like a Christian-inspired conquest to the Muslims in Indonesia, Palestine, and the Muslim country that is controlled by the House of Saud.

I am ashamed of my country. Not for what some young ordinance man did in 1991, but for allowing a militarist culture to own us. Some national self reflection would reveal us as imperialist thieves of the world's resources (and as hypocritical "followers" of Jesus, the prince of peace).

[TCJ70]

251. I don't see that as an indication of a Christian...

...inspired crusade. I'd just call it insensitive. If it said, "Happy Ramadan Non-Christians! Convert or die!" you'd have something. But this event just points out some serious jerks.

[ProgressOnTheMove]

233. I like the great irony at the end.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

256. The unspoken stupid problem of an idiotic blogger.

[Electric Monk]

258. Well, at least you're consistent...

fwiw

[BenThere]

259. don't you know christians hate cats?

The Dark Underside Of America’s Obsession With Cat Ownership
http://christwire.org/2009/10/the-dark