Everything dies, eventually.

[Tim01]

There are a couple of topics here that are tied to death. And it almost seems like some people don't understand that even if a life is saved for now, the saving is only temporary.
I have a lot of experience with death. And I can tell you that people and animals that die of old age often die slowly and painfully. It isn't the kind of thing I would want for myself. I have put down a lot of animals to stop suffering, some of them I loved very dearly. And in our family old people do not have to go to a nursing home if they don't want to. We will care for them. So far we have cared for 2 people until they died. Both of those have been kind of awful as they get too old to be able to do much of anything for themselves, and their minds get slow and confused. One of them asked me to kill him because he couldn't stand it any more. I would have done it, but I would go to jail. I don't like seeing a person who I am fond of, and who is smart and a good person, reduced to constant pain, and confusion and fear, and a diaper.
I looked out my bathroom window one day and saw my favorite goat crawling across the grass in an ice storm on her knees. Her front knees had gotten so bad from age that she couldn't stand on them anymore and she was trying to get some clover then back to shelter.I had waited too long to put her down.But she was so sweet and fun that I had been putting it off.

Based on my own life experiences, I see suffering as worse than death. Death will come sooner or later, whether there is suffering or not. And as humans we can choose to end suffering, or not.
And I think people who see the saving of all life as a most important goal have not had enough real life experience.

*end of rant*

[Mari333]

1. which topics are you specifically referring to?

just out of curiousity.

[slackmaster]

2. Interesting comments, Tim01

I can think of several situations around my life and those of people I know where putting off the inevitable just created suffering. I know a woman who had a child, a daughter, who had some kind of heart problems that never responded well to treatment. The girl finally died at age seven.

My friend has gone very much against the medical profession. She once said to me "They tortured that girl to death."

Sorry about your goat.

[phantom power]

3. I have often thought we're allowed to treat our pets with more dignity...

than we are allowed to treat ourselves. We are allowed to end their suffering, but if we make a human choice to try and end ours, it's a felony.

[OneGrassRoot]

4. This is one of most profound posts I've ever read here.

We miss the forest for the trees in these policy and "moral" debates and discussions.

I couldn't agree with you more. Quality of life is what should be at the forefront of discussion about all issues. Alleviating suffering when at all possible, as often as possible...that should always be our priority.

A huge K&R, and thank you for the simple, clear reminder full of wisdom you've shared here.

[orleans]

5. "Everything dies, eventually."

and everyone.

the reason i haven't been around here much lately--it has been the saddest, most difficult time of my life for the past month...and i am still grieving and heartbroken...

[shireen]

8. .

:hug:

[OneGrassRoot]

11. ...

:hug:

[dana_b]

22. .

[queenjane]

6. Thank you!

I work in medical R&D. I think the whole purpose is to keep people breathing as long as possible. Not living, breathing. Improves the stats, makes the drugs more valuable, ergo, they can charge more, if only because those who took the drugs "lived" longer.

My mother is 81, and far healthier than most her age. But she's slowing down and she hates it, because she's always been active and independent. She's horrified that one day, she won't even be able to cut her toenails. Her future, the inevitable future, terrifies both of us.

My friends think I'm joking when I tell them I have an "expiration date". But I'm not joking. If I'm still lucid at a certain age, I intend to get my affairs in order, find homes for any pets I still have, and go out on my own terms. I don't fear death. I DO fear disability and dependency. If I have any control over the matter, I will not end up in a nursing home in a diaper.

[Cleita]

25. Well, I watched my husband die slowly, while I cared for him.

Fortunately, he had Medicare that paid for his needs when I couldn't do it. Medicare paid for a podiatrist to cut his toenails and for his kidney dialysis. Although we knew his disease was terminal and he could have refused treatment, it gave him seven more years of life, in relative comfort, to be with his family and tend to his bird feeders, which he loved doing. If it hadn't been for Medicare we wouldn't have been able to pay for his dialysis. It's too bad that we don't have Medicare for everyone so they can enjoy a chance at a cure or at least a quality of life before they die. If my husband had been younger, he could have gotten a kidney transplant that had a good chance of being a cure.

[Gman2]

26. You may rethink that. My Grandmother is in a diaper, in a home.

She is not in pain, although she has had bad arthritis for years. She is lucid. Her lungs are shot,copd, and then a few bouts of pneumonia. She is in a diaper, cuz she cannot get up to the toilet. And yet, there is more to learn from her. She can teach us alot about death. To do her yet, would be premature. Pain, and suffering, are good teachers. They teach you to divorce yourself, from self. They strip us of our ego's. This is what Jesus commanded of us, Same with Buddha. The journey of life, is to slowly, imperceptibly, make that ineviteable letting go of me.

Americans, with our rugged individuality, and individual rights, style and position being all important, will suffer the most, in this process. We dont even give lip service to the process. We hide all those away, that we could learn from. good God, imagine the journey, into death, of a trophy wife, or obnoxious rich businessman. A little suffering does the soul good. Without it, most americans are doomed. Everything about our worldview is skewed to elevate the self as too cool, to be anything but immortal. We even grew up, with life extension experts, that told us we could live forever.

I have faced that slide, to hell. Almost died of heart failure. Sat up straight in bed, for four months. Every breath, was thought the last, and I would pass out, and die. No sleep, for four months. Maybe an hour total a night. And yet, it took some fight, to get back where I am. Had I given up, I wouldnt be writing this.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

7. when "they" proclaim "The Dignity of Life"

they should understand that what that truly means is quality of actual life, here and now. We should seek to face suffering and relieve it.

Any action should be judged by whether it helps to relieve suffering of (one or more) living beings.

Rhetoric and dogma and corporate profits and myths of suffering now in exchange for glory in the clouds later should never be put before compassion for the pain and suffering of actual living, breathing people. (And for animals.)

"Based on my own life experiences, I see suffering as worse than death. Death will come sooner or later, whether there is suffering or not. And as humans we can choose to end suffering, or not." --- very beautifully stated.

[Warpy]

9. The one thing I was able to gasp out when I went into the hospital

the last time, and I was in shock, was "Do not resuscitate!" If my heart stops, my pain is over and I will be glad for that. I've lived in pain since my teens and I'm tired of it.

I cared for both my parents when it was their time. Old age and disability terrify me because I have no family left, not that I'd ever want to burden anyone.

Needless to say, like every nurse who has ever cared for an Alzheimer's patient, I have my plan in place.

I just hope I can remember what it is when the time comes.

[lapislzi]

20. Amen, warpy

:hug:

[Tim01]

10. Some... reply to Mari333

Hunting, farming, animal shelters, elder care, abortion, death penalty.
Though these topics all have their own particulars. Like the problem with executing an innocent man(death penalty).

[Mari333]

12. Thank you for your response.

I think that most people who have had any life experience are well aware of the fact that everything ends. But many are just concerned, when they start their topics, about quality of living, whilst still very aware that everything ends.
One can wish to save and protect others, for instance, and still be aware of the fact that everyone loses their bodies eventually.
Everything is temporary.
However, quality of that temporary state of being is , I think, what a lot of people are concerned about.

[tjwash]

13. Did you know human beings are the only creatures that know they're going to die?

nt

[Mari333]

14. How do human beings know what other animals actually know or dont know

is my question.
:)

[dana_b]

23. that's what I've always wondered

I'd imagine that in my dog's young 3 y.o. life, she isn't imagining her death however when she gets old, arthritis sets in and/or she gets some bad illness, she will tell me when she's ready. Many animals do that.

[tavalon]

16. I'm not at all sure you're right

We should ask KoKo what she thinks about death, specifically her death. And I've had enough pets to wonder about that as well.

[lapislzi]

21. Don't know that at all.

My pets have certainly been aware of the absence of a longtime companion. Whether they have taken the next cognitive step to comprehend what became of the companion, and the fate that eventually awaits them, and all of us...is a mystery. I wouldn't rule it out, though.

[Brickbat]

15. Everyone's dying, all around us, right now. I am. You are.

I try to remember that to help myself be more compassionate.

[deutsey]

17. Nice

:thumbsup:

[Delphinus]

18. Thank you for your thoughts.

Death has been on my mind a lot lately and I'm glad to hear what you have said. And I do hear you - not just with my ears, but with my heart.

[Greyhound]

19. .

:thumbsup:

[Cleita]

24. We have hospice care today for just what you are saying. However,

many religions would not allow that if the Terri Schiavo fiasco is any indication. However, I think you are referring to the health care discussions. What we are talking about is people who could have been cured of their diseases if they would of had access to doctors and health care in time but died needlessly because they didn't. There is no excuse for that and I believe it could be regarded as negligent homicide by those who prevented those people from getting it. Also, the provision for patients being able to discuss their end stage diseases with their doctors was characterized as death panels by those very same idiots, like Sarah Palin, for religious reasons.

[EmeraldCityGrl]

27. I've gained a certain kind of peace...

living in a state (Washington) that offers assisted suicide. No one should live with the threat of endless suffering at the end of life.

[planetc]

28. Yes, thank you, and Fifi...

In human beings, it's both harder and easier to tell when to stop torturing them for a few more days or months of life than it is with animals. If human beings aren't mentally impaired, they will often tell you when to start letting them go. If they are mentally impaired, or unprepared mentally for the inevitable, then everyone involved has hard decisions to make. The current state of our laws on assisted suicides (in most states) sometimes makes the already difficult horrendous. I know of a man who died at almost 100--he was staying in private nursing care, and when asked what he wanted for his 100th birthday party, he replied "a belly dancer!" He was cracking jokes almost to the end, but he and his body decided that 100 was just a little too long. It is harder with humans, but it's possible to prepare for what's coming, and the help we need from our legislators is way overdue.

In England, they're having this discussion, in civilized and heartfelt tones of voice. In America, we're running around like chickens with our heads cut off, shouting about death panels and socialized medicine. We have a lot of work to do before we can claim to be a civilized society.

Fifi was the name of a toy poodle who lived happily with her first owner, a woman, until the woman's death. Fifi passed into the care of our next-door neighbor, whose name was "Fred", and who was probably in his late seventies when he adopted Fifi. After a difficult transition period, Fifi made the transition to a new master, and retrained herself to do useful things for Fred, like barking furiously to scare away the pigeons when they flocked into her driveway. She was a good and faithful companion.

When Fred died, however, and Fifi passed to the care of Fred's best friend, she seems to have suffered a breakdown of some sort. She could not start over again with a new master, and "Arthur" put her down. I have no doubt this was a wise and kind thing to do. Animals, I have concluded, have souls, and hearts, and deserve the best treatment we can give them. People do too.

[Xicano]

29. I believe the physical world is the placenta for developing consciousness.

And that consciousness is purely energy and thus cannot be destroyed. I believe the non physical dimensions (the spirit world) are just as real as the physical dimension. They are just at a higher vibrational rate than solid matter (condensed energy) can vibrate.

M-theory is starting to get the picture (scientifically) on the multidimensional aspect of the cosmos. So therefore it is of my opinion that death IS only the beginning.

[malaise]

30. And that is the essential

philosophical truth.

Super post.

Rec

[mdmc]

31. yes

[sudopod]

32. I plan on living forever.

So far so good. :)

[drmeow]

33. My grandmother

had rheumatoid arthritis before there were any effective drugs (by the time she died, her hands were folded sideways, it was horrible) and was in an assisted care facility. She got pneumonia twice - each time they put her in the hospital and treated it aggressively. When she got out the second time she told my mom, "Don't let them do that to me again." A few months later when my mom was visiting she noticed my grandmother was coughing up blood (a symptom of pneumonia). She quietly didn't tell anyone and my grandmother died of pneumonia. I think it was both the hardest and bravest thing my mother has ever done.

[Tim01]

35. Man, that's pretty hard.

One of the people we took care of until death said he never wanted another long stay in the hospital ever again. So I know where you are coming from.

[andym]

34. But some value life above all else

including suffering. And I strongly agree with them. My own father and grandmother were exemplary of this. My Dad so loved life, that even though he hated the idea of depending on others and had lived his life in a very independent manner, he wanted every second of life. Even after a crippling heart attack had reduced him to a painful dependent existence in the hospital, he accepted the loss of everything he could previously do and was planning how to make the best of his situation should he have been able to be brought home. He believed that one gets one life (with no after life) and that every second was to be treasured, no matter what.