Okay I need some input here.. What is the difference between a progressive and liberal

[Peacetrain]

I have always been a self identified liberal who belongs to the Democratic Party. Back before Clinton even, people started calling themselves Progressives, who formally had been self identified as liberals.

It really got under my skin then, because the right heads were trying to demonize the word "liberal", so I never took the progressive title.

Well, my question is, have we now split ways. Are there differences in people who call themselves Progressives, and those who call themselves Liberals.

I pulled up the definition of liberal and progressive on the free dictionary. Is there a difference in a political sense. I am a little confused by it all now




lib·er·al (lbr-l, lbrl)
adj.
1.
a. Not limited to or by established, traditional, orthodox, or authoritarian attitudes, views, or dogmas; free from bigotry.
b. Favoring proposals for reform, open to new ideas for progress, and tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others; broad-minded.
c. Of, relating to, or characteristic of liberalism.
d. Liberal Of, designating, or characteristic of a political party founded on or associated with principles of social and political liberalism, especially in Great Britain, Canada, and the United States.


progressive
adj
1. of or relating to progress
2. proceeding or progressing by steps or degrees
3. (Government, Politics & Diplomacy) (often capital) favouring or promoting political or social reform through government action, or even revolution, to improve the lot of the majority a progressive policy
4. (Social Science / Education) denoting or relating to an educational system that allows flexibility in learning procedures, based on activities determined by the needs and capacities of the individual child, the aim of which is to integrate academic with social development
5. (Economics) (of a tax or tax system) graduated so that the rate increases relative to the amount taxed Compare regressive <2>
6. (Medicine / Pathology) (esp of a disease) advancing in severity, complexity, or extent
7. (Group Games / Card Games) (of a dance, card game, etc.) involving a regular change of partners after one figure, one game, etc.
8. (Linguistics / Grammar) denoting an aspect of verbs in some languages, including English, used to express prolonged or continuous activity as opposed to momentary or habitual activity a progressive aspect of the verb ``to walk'' is ``is walking.''
n

[Taverner]

1. IMO Progressive is a cop out

Progressive is the word Liberals use to describe themselves these days, since the GOP made Liberal into a bad word.

I am a LIBERAL dammit!

[ananda]

2. A progressive is a coward.

nt

[Oregone]

3. Nothing anymore

Now that the fakers who co-opted the term liberal have done the same to progressive.

[SidDithers]

4. I think progressives think Kucinich is God...

whereas liberals think he's only a minor deity.

Sid

[frebrd]

26. I'm a Liberal Atheist who thinks he's "God".

:)

[Warpy]

5. Progressives are liberals who are sick of being in the back of the bus

or under its wheels. Progressives are uppity liberals who realize they've been right about everything all along and aren't going to rest until "conservative" is the dirty word it should be.

Progressives are liberals who are no longer going to sit down, shut up, and try to get along.

The stakes are just too high.

[knixphan]

17. Seconded.

And to me- Progressives are Liberals, vice-versa. We can use either term, and sometimes it pays to use one over the other, depending on the conversation...

[saracat]

6. IMHO a Liberal is the real deal. Progressive is a DLC term

that incorporates the big teant of the gop in our fold. it was adopted to not "offend" the GOP.

[geek tragedy]

19. Uh oh. You better duck.

You're braver than I am. Self-described 'progressives' aren't going to like your answer.

:hide:

P.S. You're right.

:hide:

[clear eye]

25. Actually recent history of "progressive" as a political term was as a code word for

socialist, self-coined during the McCarthy era. It's long since lost that meaning politically, retaining only the flavor of "for the people".

Since it had already meant something like "in favor of technological advances", creating the double meaning made it safe. It sounded strange for critics to complain about someone being too progressive, unless you were speaking to a Luddite audience.

Edited to add: I have the (dubious) advantage of being old enough to remember the former usage.

[NRaleighLiberal]

7. don't we cover this ground on a weekly basis?

[Peacetrain]

8. Well if it has been... I missed it..

[Gidney N Cloyd]

12. At least.

[kaehele]

9. Interesting

that no one really deals with the language and the semantics. Almost immediately the charges begin to fly. Easier, I guess, than to deal with the question posed in the op.

[Forkboy]

10. I see Progressive as a relative term that can be applied to any group or party.

There are, relatively speaking of couse, progressive Republicans, progressive Dems, progressive Libertarians, within the context of their own party. Liberal could also be used in that way, and this is just a case of semantics I realize, but for me liberal is associated with Left Wing ideals.

That's just my take and it's not etched in stone. :)

[Ruby the Liberal]

11. I am glad you asked this as I am curious as well.

The dirtier the RW tried to make the term "Liberal" made me sink my heels in even more in claiming it.

[NRaleighLiberal]

13. If you spend some time on Wikipedia it fleshes out the definitions

You start getting into the various subdivisions (fiscal/social liberalism, progressivism - and how these labels can vary greatly depending upon which country, which party, when in history, etc).

It is a simple question, but there is no simple answer - and since each label carries negative or positive connotations, it can set off quite the debate (which is what I've seen each time the topic is introduced at DU!).

[noiretextatique]

14. seems pretty clear to me

progressive: favouring or promoting political or social reform through government action, or even revolution, to improve the lot of the majority a progressive policy

liberal: Favoring proposals for reform, open to new ideas for progress, and tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others; broad-minded

progressives want real, progressive reforms...liberals are open to ideas for progress.
progressives want to improve the lot of the majority...liberals want to be broad-minded.

[ecstatic]

15. I think it's almost like mac vs pc

Both serve the same purpose just that one group puts themselves on a pedestal over others.

[Echo In Light]

16. Terms needn't matter. If you support war and corporate rule, you're neither

[geek tragedy]

18. What's the difference between "zesty" and "flavorful?"

They're both marketing terms, just like 'centrist' and 'conservative' and 'moderate.'

[C_Lawyer09]

31. A little more kick

and just a smidge of tang. I love zesty. What if we replace the term progressive with zesty? I'd definitely be proud to claim the title!

[clear eye]

20. From your dictionary definitions -

progressive: "favouring or promoting political or social reform through government action"
liberal: "Favoring proposals for reform"

Looks like the terms overlap. I've always thought that a person could be both. Liberal seems to emphasize social tolerance along w political reform, while progressive stresses favoring reforms that benefit the majority, and include the possibility of revolution for some proponents ("or even revolution" in the definition you quoted).

There are so many other more important distinctions with which to be concerned, that I'm o.k. when people use them interchangeably even if it's not quite accurate.

What I'm not o.k. w/ is when people confuse "liberal" w/ the misleadingly named "neoliberal", the latter generally meaning someone favoring lack of restrictions on capital, especially international capital.

[BigBluenoser]

21. I'm just gonna kick the nest cuz it's fun...

Progressives represent the authoritarian and evangelical side of liberalism.

Now I am gonna haul ass very quickly.

[frebrd]

37. Agreed. n/t

[frebrd]

22. It seems to me that Progressives tend........

to be more aggressive.

I've always called myself Liberal, and don't give a damn what the "right" thinks about it!

[Cleita]

23. Liberals drink latte and wear headbands or so says RushBo. n/t

[Peacetrain]

24. Okay guilty as charged with the latte..but I have never worn a headband

[BigBluenoser]

34. I wear headbands from time to time...

but steamed milk is really gross.

[C_Lawyer09]

36. So does Willy Nelson

But he drinks whiskey

[Hepburn]

27. Money....

...:evilgrin:

[guitar man]

28. who gives a shit

we gonna fight each other or fight the damn right wingers? :shrug:

[happyslug]

29. Herbert Hoover considered himself a Liberal, and said FDR was NOT

The whole Right Wing of this Country called itself Liberal before the 1930s, for it was liberal to oppose Government interference with how people did things, even if what people were doing was harming other people. Now, liberals then as now had a problem, most liberals opposed some liberal ideas. In the 1920s the Liberals opposed any regulation on business, for that was GOVERNMENT power being used to "suppress" people from doing what they would otherwise do (i.e. Liberal supported the idea that industry could suppress Unions for Unions were attempts to regulate people and such regulation was opposed by liberal.

Now you may be confused by the previous paragraph but the main problem with the term Liberal is that is has two meanings. The first meaning and the meaning it has in Europe is what we would call Republican economic platform (leave people alone, regulations interfere with how business should run etc). Liberalism had the same meaning in the US till the 1930s when FDR, running away from the left wing of his party, embraced the term Liberal to show he was NOT some radical left wing nut. FDR then re-defined the term "Liberal" politically to basically mean the progressive wing (Especially after FDR further embraced the left as the economy went to hell in 1937-1938).

After WWII, the rights wing had to redefine itself. Seeing how FDR redefined the term Liberal, the Right wing decided to demonized the term (a tern the GOP had embraced as its own till that time). FDR's second VP decided to run against Truman in 1948, for he saw Truman as not left wing enough, Henry Wallace then ran as a progressive. This had the effect of turning the term "progressive" from being the left wing of the Democratic Party, to being a bunch of isolated nut cases, in all by name communists (Not MY opinion, but how the term was viewed afterward).

Of the two terms, I prefer Progressive for the simple fact if I use that term for the Left wing of this country I do NOT have to explain why "Liberal Economic Policy" is OPPOSED by the left wing. I.e. why do liberal oppose the liberal economic policy? Progressive can oppose liberal economic policy on the grounds it hurts the working class. Progressive can oppose liberal economic policy on the grounds it does not work. Liberal can oppose it for the same reason, but you have that confusion as to why a liberal opposes something that is liberal.

[handmade34]

30. complex in historical context

I believe that the idea of progressivism is more relevant to the concerns here as 'liberalism' has a very diverse and changing history. Today's tea people would be considered yesterday's liberals. (19th century) Your question is appropriate as it is very difficult to discuss and understand issues unless terminology is standard.

This from http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/liberalism/
"Given that liberalism fractures on so many issues — the nature of liberty, the place of property and democracy in a just society, the comprehensiveness and the reach of the liberal ideal — one might wonder whether there is any point in talking of ‘liberalism’ at all. It is not, though, an unimportant or trivial thing that all these theories take liberty to be the grounding political value. Radical democrats assert the overriding value of equality, communitarians maintain that the demands of belongingness trump freedom, and conservatives complain that the liberal devotion to freedom undermines traditional values and virtues and so social order itself. Intramural disputes aside, liberals join in rejecting these conceptions of political right"

"Progressivism is an umbrella label for a wide range of economic, political, social, and moral reforms" that began very early 20th century.

[Jennicut]

32. I always liked liberal better. Why should it be a dirty word? Wear it loud and proud.

[C_Lawyer09]

35. Or like a shroud

While you wish for something with silver lining, maybe a cloud.

[superduperfarleft]

33. Liberals are economically privileged, usually white

who talk about high ideals such as economic, racial, and gender equality but generally do so in a way that is ridiculously condescending, and rarely put anything on the line to support said ideals.

Progressives are usually young and have little knowledge of political theory, which is why they cling to the Democratic Party even though the Party rarely represents their beliefs (and then get all huffy when they don't get their way).

[C_Lawyer09]

38. I wanted a Schwinn

But got a Huffy for Christmas.

[anonymous171]

44. It's the other way around actually. Progressives have always been the condescending ones

[superduperfarleft]

45. Progressives are condescending but it rolls right off because they don't know what they're talking

about half the time. They're like the left's version of Ron Paul fans.

Liberals are the ones who actually shape policy, which makes them far more dangerous. Liberals are the ones who give us NAFTA and welfare reform.

[Uncle Joe]

39. I've rarely been one to ascertain much to labels but I believe H2O Man had a decent definition

on this thread.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6986068

"I’ve been a member of the DU community since 2003. I joined, in part, because I found this forum to be a place where liberal and progressive democrats could talk shop. There are people who have slightly different opinions on what "liberal" and "progressive" means; in my view, a liberal seeks to make substantial changes to the system, in order to bring about social justice, while progressives believe that the system requires changes from the foundation up, in order to make social justice a possibility."

[QC]

47. That's it. Liberals want to smooth a few rough edges off the system,

while progressives want to make fundamental changes to that system.

[HamdenRice]

40. Liberals are foxes and Progressives are hedgehogs

There's a famous essay by Isiah Berlin about the "Fox and the Hedgehog." It is about political ideologies, but is based on a tiny scroll fragment of Greek literature that simply said, cryptically, "The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing."

Berlin applied this to politics, and in particular claimed that liberals were foxes. This is not to say, as one might conclude that Berlin (or the Greeks) were saying hedgehogs were stupid.

They were saying there are two ways of approaching political theory. You can be a systematic thinker and believe that there is a grand theory that explains everything (or at least a lot of things). If so, you are a hedgehog. Many Marxists are hedgehogs, but so are many free market, Chicago style right wing economists. They have mastered one big theory, and that theory explains the world to them.

Foxes have no one big theory. They know many things. They have no plan. That makes them seem unprincipled. They try one thing, and if it doesn't work, they try another.

Being a fox or a hedgehog has nothing to do with where you are on the political spectrum. There are right wing foxes and left wing foxes, and right wing hedgehogs and left wing hedgehogs.

Liberals are foxes; progressives are hedgehogs.

Liberals, another theorist once said, believe in "muddling through." They have no answer when they start. They are not bound by ideology. For example, a liberal would not say, a priori, that insurance corporations cannot be involved in health care reform. They would say, maybe they can, maybe then can't -- let's experiment and see.

Just to show how this has nothing to do with where you are on the spectrum:

Franklin Roosevelt was a fox.
Abe Lincoln was a hedgehog.
Bill Clinton is a fox.
Jimmy Carter is a hedgehog.
George HW Bush is a fox.
George W. Bush is a hedgehog.
Dwight Eisenhower was a fox.
Lyndon Johnson was a hedgehog.

Barak Obama is a classic fox, and a liberal.

Ralph Nader and Dennis Kucinich are hedgehogs.

Liberals are foxes.
Progressives, who have a systemic theory of what's wrong, are hedgehogs.

Hedgehogs get mad at foxes for not understanding their hedgehog "theory of everything" that explains why certain experiments must not be tried.

[BigBluenoser]

42. I think that was well stated...

[old mark]

41. Used to be that a "Progressive" was a much more leftist "Liberal".

Back in the '70's for someone on the far left to call someone a "liberal" was to insult them for being too conservative and middle of the road.

I have no idea what either term means today, but it's probably not very different than it used to be.



mark

[anonymous171]

43. Progressives, historically, have been middle class left-leaning paternalistic "pragmatists"

While Liberals have always been more leftist (moving closer to anarchist/socialist territoy.)

[rucky]

46. None / Nobody Knows

Maybe there used to be a difference - now they're used interchangeably.

[muriel_volestrangler]

48. Since you say "*a* progressive and liberal", here are definitions for the nouns

Merriam-Webster:

progressive
Function: noun
Date: 1846

1 a : one that is progressive b : one believing in moderate political change and especially social improvement by governmental action

liberal
Function: noun
Date: 1820

: a person who is liberal: as a : one who is open-minded or not strict in the observance of orthodox, traditional, or established forms or ways b capitalized : a member or supporter of a liberal political party c : an advocate or adherent of liberalism especially in individual rights

lib·er·al·ism
Function: noun
Date: 1819

1 : the quality or state of being liberal
2 a often capitalized : a movement in modern Protestantism emphasizing intellectual liberty and the spiritual and ethical content of Christianity b : a theory in economics emphasizing individual freedom from restraint and usually based on free competition, the self-regulating market, and the gold standard c : a political philosophy based on belief in progress, the essential goodness of the human race, and the autonomy of the individual and standing for the protection of political and civil liberties; specifically : such a philosophy that considers government as a crucial instrument for amelioration of social inequities (as those involving race, gender, or class)

Oxford English Dictionary:

progressive
1. a. A person holding progressive, avant-garde, or liberal views; an advocate or supporter of social, religious, or political progress or reform, or of change within or to a particular political system; a member or supporter of a Progressive Party

The OED rather chickens out of a specific defintion for the noun 'liberal', and just gives uses, which may indicate the problems with its use - it has (tedious long bit here):

B. n.

1. A member of the Liberal party (see A. 5). a. in continental politics.
1820 Edin. Rev. XXXIV. 3 Our travellers..continue to resort to Paris..and occasionally take part with Ultras or with Liberals. 1823 SOUTHEY in Q. Rev. XXVIII. 496 The Liberals of that day .. flew at high game... There was a scheme for establishing a society of Liberals at Cleves, where..they were to employ themselves in the task of destroying Christianity by means of the press. 1848 W. K. KELLY tr. L. Blanc's Hist. Ten Y. I. 52 The part played by the liberals during this time was as follows. 1885 LOWE Prince Bismarck I. 469 This was evidently the calculation of the Liberals in the Reichstag, when..they began a series of attempts to cobble at the Constitution.

b. in British politics.
Early in the 19th c. the n. occurs chiefly as applied by opponents to the advanced section of the Whig party: sometimes in Sp. or Fr. form, app. with the intention of suggesting that the principles of those politicians were un-English, or akin to those of the revolutionaries of the Continent. As, however, the adj. was already English in a laudatory sense, the advocates of reform were not reluctant to adopt the foreign term as descriptive of themselves; and when the significance of the old party distinctions was obliterated by the coalition of the moderate Whigs with the Tories and of the advanced Whigs with the Radicals, the new names ‘Liberal’ and ‘Conservative’ took the place of ‘Whig’ and ‘Tory’ as the usual appellations of the two great parties in the state.
<1816 SOUTHEY in Q. Rev. XV. 69 These are the personages for whose sake the continuance of the Alien Bill has been opposed by the British Liberales. 1826 SCOTT Jrnl. 19 Nov., Canning, Huskisson, and a mitigated party of Liberaux. 1834 M. EDGEWORTH Helen xxxv. III. 66 That one born and bred such an ultra exclusive..should be obliged after her marriage..to open her doors and turn ultra liberale, or an universal suffragist.> 1822 (title) The Liberal. Verse and Prose from the South. 1828 Blackw. Mag. XXIII. 174 What lurking conspirator against the quiet of his native government..has failed to ask and receive the protection of our Liberals? 1850 L. HUNT Autobiog. II. xi. 77 Newer and more thorough-going Whigs..were known by the name of Radicals, and have since been called..Liberals. 1865 J. S. MILL in Morn. Star 6 July, A Liberal is he who looks forward for his principles of government; a Tory looks backward. 1879 MCCARTHY Own Times II. xix. 51 A large number of Liberals were no doubt influenced by this view of the situation.

c. In extra-European politics, and in wider application.
1832 Liberal (St. Thomas, Ontario) 20 Sept. 3/4 We shall first notice the slanderous imputations cast upon the Liberals, that they are a discontented set of men, ever on the watch to find occasion for complaint and clamour. 1854 N.Y. Tribune 22 Apr. 5/5 The ‘Liberals’ of Maine have called a ‘State Democratic Mass Convention’ at Portland. 1918 H. V. EVATT Liberalism Austral. x. 66 The Sydney press claimed that its own free traders were the Liberals. 1940 N.Y. Times 23 Jan. 20/4 Since then Liberal has been a word of confusion. Everybody who was not a Conservative became a Liberal or Radical or Red, whichever came first to the mind. 1955 D. VIKLUND tr. Tingsten Probl. S. Afr. x. 116 A Communist in South Africa is often, according to the general usage of the word, a liberal. 1957 New Yorker 12 Jan. 25/1 Both she and Robbie were campus liberals; they had met at a gathering that had something to do with the Spanish war. a1964 H. HOOVER in W. Safire New Lang. Politics (1968) 232/2 Fuzzy minded totalitarian liberals who believe that their creeping collectivism can be adopted without destroying personal liberty and representative government. 1969 New Yorker 14 June 44/2, I don't think he is a liberal. He's tight with his money, and he wants to see the poor work for their money.

For the (political) adjective, it has:

Of political opinions: Favourable to constitutional changes and legal or administrative reforms tending in the direction of freedom or democracy. Hence used as the designation of the party holding such opinions, in England or other states; opposed to Conservative.


So I'd say the fundamental difference between a liberal and a progressive is that a liberal thinks more about individual rights than a progressive does. But there's a lot of overlap.

[anonymous171]

49. So progressives are the more moderate ones. nt

[muriel_volestrangler]

50. Perhaps; or perhaps progressives are more 'collective', and liberals 'individual' (nt)

[burning rain]

51. Liberals were the kids conservatives beat up for their lunch money every day.

Progressives were the kids the conservatives didn't fuck with.

[anonymous171]

54. Progressives were the bullies who felt sorry for their victims. nt

[JackRiddler]

52. The usages have shifted through the years.

In the 19th century, liberalism was a pro-market economic philosophy. At around the same time, modern conservativism was defined in reaction to the French Revolution.

Liberalism still retains its old meaning in Europe. In Germany, for example, the Liberals are the most pro-business party, although they're also what we would call social liberals.

In the US, progressive first came into common usage to describe reformers of the early 20th century, a time when liberal would have still resonated with its original meaning.

In my experience, most people on the left do not identify as "liberal," which to them means little more than capitalism with a human face and opportunistic compromises by career politicians and triangulating corporation men like Bill Clinton.

So they have come to prefer "progressive."

Keep in mind, even the DLC call themselves liberals, even Lieberman does. I don't really care for the term. But I pay attention to how the word is used, and sometimes I like what people who call themselves "liberal" think it means.

Meanwhile, in the mainstream, after decades of propaganda, "liberal" is a dirty word associated with the myths of champagne-drinking "elites" in limousines, insufferable latte-sipping hipsters at Starbucks, and "welfare queens" guzzling Thunderbird.

Progressive is the smarter way to go for good PR. Unlike liberal, people can hear what it means, it has the magic word "progress" in it and is very hard to taint.

The key perhaps is to get past the labels altogether, and ask the questions that matter:

Do you want to get out of Iraq and Afghanistan? Do you support a single-payer universal health system? Are you against providing trillions of taxpayer dollars to the criminal banks who burned the financial system? Would you like to end US interventions on behalf of the right-wing governments in Colombia and Mexico? Would you like to end the drug war, establish public campaign finance, end corporate personhood, see a truly open government that does not engage in covert operations and psyops on its own people?

If yes, then I don't care what label you use.

[Motown_Johnny]

53. about ten grand a year