Down with moderates

[wuushew]

Please help me understand the apparent nobility or practicality of labeling oneself a "moderate".

This country has never viewed itself or practiced any policy which could be described as far left. Was the minimum wage ever to high, financial or environmental regulations to strict? Other industrialized counties face the same problems we do at yet there solutions to often objectively described problems are many times very much superior to what we end up following.

Also the less that a proposed solution differs from the status quo the weaker the resulting data is for judging the efficacy in the a change in policy. To be liberal is to experiment with the nature of a thing. Draconian criminal sentences, draconian views on drugs loved by conservatives don't generate any new information which can be used to shape policy. It is the desire to change the nature of a thing and to discuss which is how society progresses. What human mindset would view less information as positive outcome?

Is there some subconscious belief that taking an "average" view of some set of issues helps the most people? I feel moderation as defined and practiced in America is of the wrong mindset. Metaphorically It is more of an ideological median average instead of a mean average. The results are disastrous. The world is often not Gaussian. Income distribution in this country is completely FUBAR. Helping the vast number of poor, lower middle and middle Americans requires and demands massively increased taxation.

Compromise is shameful. Settling for anything less the an optimal solution should be met with sadness and a desire to improve in the future. If a political issue failed why aren't the moderates nagging and or berating the enemies of the ideal? I also reject the idea that moderate views are unique solutions in their own right. The compromise between red and blue is purple, the compromise between hot and cold portage is luke warm portage. What issues are multi-dimensional? Political systems aren't set up as simultaneous multi-choice decision making entities.

There is no forseeable reason ever to stagnate as a society or as we have done in the past 30 years regress. The complexity and improvement of civilization demands ever more leftist solutions. As wealth and complexity increases government must compensate by an equivalent degree, to do not so is to invite systemic collapse, corruption, etc.

Discuss

[bigwillq]

1. Read that as: Down with moderators!

:rofl:

[Tommy_Carcetti]

2. But Up with People!

[arcadian]

43. Hooray! for Everything

[Tommy_Carcetti]

49. And Sideways, with Paul Giamatti!

[Sebastian Doyle]

3. Most of the politicians who descitbe themselves as "moderate" or "centrist" are actually corporatist

It has nothing to do with the manufactured illusion of "most of the population being in the (never actually defined)center" and everything to do with money, money, and more money.

[wuushew]

6. but what about those posters on DU who describe them as moderate or centrist?

are they too on the corporate dole? Voters and politicans alike use the label "moderate".

[robinlynne]

34. They tend to support the same things. "realism is working within the system we have

now". But the system is BROKEN.

[Echo In Light]

41. Exactly. It's the weaker/lesser liberal position, so naturally is VERY popular in professional/estab

... establishment circles

[rudy23]

4. It's a rationalization for those who want to call themselves progressives, but benefit from

a pro-corporate alliance of some sort.

That's why I contend most adamantly pro-DLC'ers are trolls. Who outside of Washington DC has to take such a compromised position, and after doing so, what would steer such a compromised person towards an impassioned political site?

[Vincardog]

14. What would steer such a compromised person towards an impassioned political site?

They come here for the same reason they went to the town hall meetings this summer.
1) to APPEAR to be a larger fore than they are by:
being disbursed in the crowd
Shouting out their message
and sitting down.
2) To disrupt any real information sharing.
3) to impede real progressive discussion organization or action.

[rudy23]

40. Bingo. Every healthcare thread since July has started with a long argument upthread.

Precisely because those who are paid to fling shit on a site that means nothing to them have nothing to lose fighting those of us who do care. It's easier to fuck something up by sewing dissent than to preserve it in the face of the shit-flingers.

[rudy23]

44. Also -- $9 an hour, a virtually worthless Poli Sci degree in a bad job market., no conscience,

a generally ornery attitude and nowhere to unleash it.

[imdjh]

5. The answer is in the movie Rob Roy, I think.

When the Marquess of Argyle tells his idealistic son something like, "Our friends are as rich in English titles as Scottish, the mark of a nobleman is the art of compromise."

[wuushew]

10. I think you are thinking of the scene in Braveheart

where Robert the Bruce is being lectured by his father.

[imdjh]

59. You are probably correct. I could watch both movies at the same time while eating chocolate.

And be in heaven.

[SIMPLYB1980]

7. Moderates are here to stay.

Don't know why you would want them to go and vote republican, but I'm sure you will be much happier with them in control instead of Democrats.
:shrug:

[Vincardog]

15. What good is it to have a PARTY in charge that does not provide the POLICIES we want?

IF all the so called "centrists" and "moderates" worked as hard against the Republican policies as they do against the democratic policies; I would be glad to have them vote republican.

[SIMPLYB1980]

16. Bla bla bla...

Heard it all before.

[Vincardog]

17. AND? Has any of it penetrated? Or are you really one of the Corporatist masquerading as a Democrat?

[SIMPLYB1980]

22. Since when has the Democratic party been anti Corporation?

[Vincardog]

25. The Democratic party has been pro LABOR pro CHOICE and pro environment . Where that impacts Corporat...

profit TOUGH SHIT

[Vincardog]

26. You do not have to be Anti-Corporation to resist Corporate goals

[SIMPLYB1980]

28. No shit, but some think it would have been good to just

let it all burn, and not all corporate goals are bad.

[WI_DEM]

30. This is nothing new. You talk of the Dem party as if it's always been a liberal party and it hasn't

It's always been full of conservative Dems and moderates along with progressives and liberals. JFK was a moderate in many ways. Certainly a pragmatic liberal as was FDR. They knew you generally have to compromise to get anything accomplished.

[Vincardog]

32. You generally get something for your compromise. What do we get for taking Single Payer off the tabl...

[wuushew]

18. How do know you are a moderate?

http://www.politicalcompass.org/index

[SIMPLYB1980]

24. Because I am. I'm just not a bleeding heart progressive,

or a racist tea bagger. I am somewhere in between, but the Democratic party is way better than the republican and I have always been happy to be a part of it.

[Duke Newcombe]

53. -0.2, 0.0...

Let the DU purity brigade start stoking the bonfire for me!

[Bluenorthwest]

21. Is the strict binary thinking part of being a 'moderate'?

And why would they 'go and vote Republican' over a post on the internet? Oh, that's right, because they already are half Republican, so it matters not to them. Feathers blowing in the wind.

[robinlynne]

35. not encessarily. At some point people will need to take sides. It is either

the wealthiest .001 percent of the naiton (currently supported by the moderates) or the rest of us.

[HamdenRice]

8. My most heartfelt unrec ever! Forward comrades under the vanguard of the Khmer Rouge!!!

The most un-moderate political party of all time.

[Warpy]

9. The problem is that people who call themselves moderates

are generally hard right conservatives.

People who are genuinely in the middle hold positions the "moderates" decry as rabid socialism: fair taxes on the rich and corporate, national health insurance, getting out of imperial wars and reducing the imperial military around the world, and strengthening the social safety net so that we don't have to live in terror every time the "moderates" fuck up the economy beyond repair.

Definitely down with self identified moderates whose positions favor corporations over human beings every single time and who think our civil rights are up for discussion.

Conservatives are always the problem and can never be part of any solution, no matter what they call themselves.

[robinlynne]

36. well said. Right now, in this country, being a moderate is NOT a good thing at all.

[Forkboy]

11. Down with both the Left and the Center doing their best to tear us apart.

[Lautremont]

12. I'd have to find out if Archbunker Stevenson is a moderate before I comment.

[Peacetrain]

13. Read the OP, not sure I understand, since I am a liberal...

But this is troublesome to me

"Compromise is shameful"

Politics at its more artful is "compromise."

We will not always be in power.

Just like the republicans were not always in power (though they thought they had moved to that place.. )

They refused to compromise, or seek any kind of understanding of the oppositions, point... which got us into the Iraq war quagmire.

I have been a liberal all my life.. and that is exactly what a liberal is. A person or philosophy that is liberal is capable of handling others points of views

lib·er·al (lbr-l, lbrl)
adj.
1.
a. Not limited to or by established, traditional, orthodox, or authoritarian attitudes, views, or dogmas; free from bigotry.
b. Favoring proposals for reform, open to new ideas for progress, and tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others; broad-minded.
c. Of, relating to, or characteristic of liberalism.
d. Liberal Of, designating, or characteristic of a political party founded on or associated with principles of social and political liberalism, especially in Great Britain, Canada, and the United States.

[Vincardog]

20. How about this "Compromise 'on your core beliefs' is shameful" We are talking basic human rights.

[wuushew]

33. There are many issues where perfect is quite obtainable

no more lead in gasoline is nice.

The basic technology of the incandescent lightbulb was unchanged for 100 years. On many environmental issues moderation retards or halts progress on laudible goals.

[WeDidIt]

19. Cool, another DU thread advocating a return to minority party status

Think about it, if the Democratic Party went as hard left as the GOP has gone far right, a moderate party would have to form to pick up the slack in the center and you'd still have to either form a coalition with the moderates to govern or remain in minority status.

Moderates exist and if you don't form a coalition with them, those on the right will.

[Vincardog]

23. Define MODERATE. If they do not follow the basic planks of the Democratic party they should not be

here

[WeDidIt]

29. Then you are advocating minority party status

which is fine if that's what you want, but very few people will agree with every plank of the Democratic Party. This is why there are always platform battles to get certain planks in or keep others out.

That's how politics works. Expecting monolithic thinking is political suicide for any party as is currently being evidenced by the actions of the GOP.

[Vincardog]

39. ANd compromising those core planks of the hard fought platform helps HOW?

[WeDidIt]

58. You don't have to compromise them

You have to have a large enough percentage of elected Congresscritters that hold to them in order to mov3e the agenda forward.

I think we're there. If you look at how the votes on Stupak fell out, most of the hard core supporters aren't going to vote for the final bill any way, so it's safe to pull Stupak if you can get Kucinich on board.

[robinlynne]

37. most democrats in congress do NOT follow those platforms. the so- called "centrists".

[Vincardog]

42. IF they do not want to follow Democratic party platforms are the Democrats?

[Kaleva]

38. "We permit members to be pro-life or pro-gun or whatever.."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2509862

[Bluenorthwest]

31. Hmmmm. So the GOP has gone far to the right

and yet somehow moderates are still halfway 'twixt them and liberals. No matter how right the right goes, the moderates are half way there. This means that a few more steps to the right, and they will be holding forth in the Bush, the GW Bush, and they will now be 'the right'. The tea baggers are off the reservation by then. Moderates are going to be the new GOP. Because they keep stepping right to keep that 'moderation' as the 'left' holds tightly in place.
Off into the weeds go the moderates, following, as they must follow, the right half of their nature...bye bye.

[WI_DEM]

27. Would you prefer more conservatives or moderates. Compromise is shameful

sure, but in history that is the way things generally get done. FDR did it. JFK did it. It's nothing new. Of course there are basic things we shouldn't compromise on and imo a Public Option is one of them.

[muriel_volestrangler]

45. How successful in the US are parties and individual politicians to the left of the Democrats?

There's Bernie Sanders (who cooperates extensively with the Democratic party, and seems very comfortable working with 'moderates'); and that's about it at the national level, in how many years? I looked it up, and the Green Party has had 3 reps at state level in the 21st century; 2 later left the party, and the other got voted out in 2006. It's hard to see that there's any real appetite for moving further left in US politics.

You ask 'What issues are multi-dimensional?' Many. Trade policy is. There's the dimension of employment for Americans, but also of affordability of goods. How much should a government control what a consumer spends their money on? When the US has to import oil, at what point would a trade war be ruinous for the US? Healthcare policy is multidimensional. There's affordability for the whole country, and affordability for individuals. Should hospitals and practices be nationalised, and all healthcare workers federal employees, so that a uniform service is guaranteed? Or is it OK for regions to decide they want different standards of healthcare? Or for individuals? As long as they meet a federal minimum? Crime policy is multi-dimensional - is the purpose of prison to deter, or rehabilitate? Do you allow the cost of it to influence your judgement? And so on.

You say "compromise is shameful". Compromise is a fundamental part of society. There isn't just one obvious right answer (or 'optimal solution', as you put it) for everything, and so taking into account other people's ideas is a good way of getting the wisdom of many to work on a problem. I don't think that extremism is the only honorable position.

"the compromise between hot and cold portage is luke warm portage". Damn right, Goldilocks (I presume you did mean to allude to food, not canoe-carrying).

[redqueen]

47. Wish I could rec this post.

You said it very well... but I don't think there's any point saying it, sadly.

[StrongBad]

46. Is it hard to just accept that some left leaning ppl have moderate views?

[reflection]

48. I'm channelling my inner Derek Smalls

We're very lucky in the band in that we have two visionaries, David and Nigel, they're like poets, like Shelley and Byron. They're two distinct types of visionaries, it's like fire and ice, basically. I feel my role in the band is to be somewhere in the middle of that, kind of like lukewarm water.

[superduperfarleft]

50. The Democratic Party IS a moderate party.

I know that most Americans are so warped by how screwed up US politics (and by how self-absorbed most USAmericans are) but in most of the world, our Democrats would be the equivalent of their Republicans and our Republicans would be the equivalent of their racist, far-right loonies. There has always been a populist movement in this country, and oftentimes those people will identify with the Democratic Party, but there's nothing in the Party platform that makes them a core group.

People on this website love to complain about how the Democratic Party isn't nearly as liberal as them, and then out of the other sides of their mouths bash Nader or Chomsky or others who are actually true leftists (as in pro-labor, anti-corporate, and for many of them, anti-capitalist). I don't think most of the "progressives" here who continue to identify as Democrats have a clue when it comes to political theory or history.

[GreenArrow]

51. Moderates, more or less,

are simply those who want to be on the side that's winning.

[Kaleva]

56. Moderates generally determine which side wins.

According to the CNN exit poll data, about twice as many moderates voted for obama as did self described liberals. Had Obama and McCain split the moderate vote 50/50, we'd be bitching about the McCain/Palin Administration now.

[Spike89]

52. Part of the problem are lousy definitions

What's the difference between a politician that wants free universal health care for everyone, but feels the only path that works is a step at a time and another politician that wants a bit less than the first, but insists that it all happens at once? Well, the 1st gets called a moderate and the second gets called an obstructionist.

The end result, we can build no strong coalition and the right continues to press our buttons.

[Blue-Jay]

54. Down with toast!

Especially Eric Estrada toast!


:thumbsdown:

[jpak]

55. Down with stupid divisive posts!!!111

:evilgrin:

[Number23]

60. +1

[many a good man]

57. Democratic Party is a coalition, NOT a party

Our government has instituted a two-party system therefore everyone in the spectrum has to fit into one of the two parties to affect change. This is quite unlike other countries that have multi-party parliamentary democracies where many like-minded parties need to form a coalition together in order to govern.

The result of this form of government has been "stability." Stability also implies slowness to change. It has also led to the ability of monied interests to take effective control of both parties.

In order to create any kind of meaningful change in this country requires an overpowering social movement or a strong, charismatic leader. In the absence of the above, small incremental changes in a positive direction are the only thing we can hope for. So get off your ass and make the movement for progressive change overwhelmingly powerful or quit whining (Note: not directed to the OP, but to all of us).

[Kaleva]

61. Interesting thought. We have two "coalitions" .

As a party (coalition) broadens its support, it gains power but that leads to infighting as groups within the coalition fight to promote their individual agendas. This leads to perceived ineffectiveness and loss of power and the other coalition takes over for a time but suffers the same fate.