Will I go to jail if I don't buy health insurance? No.

[ProSense]

Will I go to jail if I don't buy health insurance? No.

JB

The newest meme of opposition to the health insurance plan is that if you don't obey the individual mandate to purchase health insurance, you will go to jail.

This is false.

more

[ProSense]

1. Bury the facts. n/t

[MNDemNY]

2. This is true, but what is also true...

is that this bill sets back womens' rights 50 years with the Stupak Amendment. You support the bill with the Stupak amendment enacted, do you not?? Why is that? Are womens' rights secondary to a Rose Garden signing ceremony?? While you are correct that you will not go to jail for not buying health insurance, you WILL go to jail if you fail to pay the "fee/fine " for not buying insurance. But that is just semantics.

[ipaint]

3. Only folks who can't pay the tax will face the possibility of jail time and or additional crippling

fines. If you have the money to pay the tax, you won't go.

Class warfare at it's finest. What good is a law if you don't have a few poor people to make examples out of. Keeps the middle class in line and gives them some red meat to chew on.

[ProSense]

5. That's a nonsensical RW talking point. n/t

[ipaint]

9. So are you saying someone who can't pay their fine won't face additional fines

and possible jail time. That's not what your link says.

What are the fines for ins. company abuses? Any jail time for cheating a single paying citizen out of a few hundred dollars?

[MNDemNY]

10. Are you not familiar with the tax code?

You don't pay, you face fines and or jail time.

[ipaint]

13. At this point, not because i can't afford my unsubsidized portion of health ins.

[ProSense]

15. You obviously are not. n/t

[MNDemNY]

17. If you willfully do not pay your taxes, (including any penalty for not buying insurance)..

You face jail time. If you are contending anything else, You are just plain LYING! How can you possibly say what you are saying?? tool.

[ipaint]

21. Because I didn't say that. You think.

[timtom]

144. It looks as though he wasn't responding to you

but the person just after you. 15 instead of 13.

[Autumn]

28. My property tax keeps going up,

I can't afford any more taxes. So if the penalty for not having insurance is a penalty(?) tax can they put a lien on my home?

[MNDemNY]

36. Yes, by all means, yes.

[Xicano]

102. Yes, and

then they can sell the tax lien to someone. Then I am sure you already know that you'll have about three years to pay that person back plus interest or else you'll forfeit your home to that person.

[Autumn]

104. They should never have made it

a tax penalty. As one who has had nightmare dealings with the IRS, it sucks. They should just garnish your wages.

[closeupready]

31. Exactly. There is no point in discussing this issue with the threadstarter.

He is being deliberately dishonest.

[SammyWinstonJack]

40. And I wonder why he is being deliberately dishonest?

:shrug: What purpose does that serve?

[closeupready]

52. Indeed. Congress seems to think they can call a crap sandwich "foie gras" and

sell it to their constituents as some sort of health care reform victory. :eyes:

[MNDemNY]

108. The only goal is the proverbial "win" no matter the cost.

The Rose Garden bill signing is all that matters.

[ipaint]

20. I know you are chomping at the bit for this draconian punishment stuff to pass but today, no,

I would not go to jail for not paying my for profit private health insurance tax. In a few years. Maybe.

[MNDemNY]

113. Read the tax code.

But, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, so "in a few years, maybe" that's OK?

[Hippo_Tron]

48. How many people currently go to prison for not being able to pay their taxes?

As I understand it, people are generally not prosecuted because of their inability to pay. They are prosecuted for fraud or because they are some right wing nutjob who has the money but refuses to pay because he thinks taxes are unconstitutional. Correct me if I'm wrong on this, but I honestly don't see the government jailing people who can't afford to pay. I can see them jailing a few idiots who have the money but refuse to pay.

[kestrel91316]

53. There are no CRIMINAL penalties being discussed. You are a liar.

A fine is a CIVIL penalty. You CANNOT be jailed in the US for not paying a CIVIL penalty, dumbass.

[redqueen]

4. Aw, why do you hate RW smears about Democratic reform efforts?

I'm about half-surprised these folks weren't talking up the "death panel" bullshit in here.

[ipaint]

6. The ins. companies are death panels.

It's in their business plan.

[redqueen]

8. Clearly I meant the RW version, wherein the death panels were due to the plan.

Just as the RWers ignored the fact that the death panels were already there, just in private insurance companies and not some new creation due to health care reform... some people here (and the RWers, of course) are ignoring the fact that going to jail for not paying taxes is already a law.

[ipaint]

11. How convenient for the health ins. companies!

[redqueen]

16. And the uninsured, and those who worry about pre-existing conditions,

and small-business owners...

but hey... when one is more concerned about corporate welfare than the welfare of citizens, well...

[MNDemNY]

23. Will you support this bill if the Stupak language remains in the final bill?

Yes or No???? If you are going to push this bill you need to be clear on this issue.

[redqueen]

27. Yep. (nt)

[MNDemNY]

32. So you are willing to set womens' reproductive rights back 50 years?

Are you pleased with the amendment? Are you an anti-choicer?

[redqueen]

34. I'm not pleased with it, and not an anti-choicer. (nt)

[MNDemNY]

41. Then (real question) how/why would you still support the bill with Stupak?

Are there other rights that have been hard fought for by Democrats that you would be willing to sacrifice as well?

[redqueen]

51. IF it gets passed with Stupak (which I doubt)

I'm sure it'll be amended.

[MNDemNY]

107. Thems a lot if ifs. Looks like the "bishops" have a direct line on the hill.

Hope you are right, but I think not.

[kestrel91316]

61. You cannot go to jail for not paying taxes in the US. You CAN go to jail

for not filing a tax return. One is a civil offense, the other criminal. DO NOT repeat RW lies here.

[redqueen]

74. Read US Tax Code 7201.

Do NOT assume you know shit. :rofl:

[kestrel91316]

84. I owed the IRS a large sum of money for a time (according to them, not me, and

I eventually prevailed when I could get a hearing) and though they were champing at the bit over my bank accounts, they never laid a hand on me physically.

Please cite the exact wording of the US tax code and provide a link to the applicable part where it says you CAN be jailed for simply not having the money to pay taxes you filed for, otherwise you won't convince me.

And I am not talking about any other offenses, like criminal comtempt, or failure to file, or filing a fraudulent return.

They can hound you into bankruptcy, but they cannot jail you. Ask Willy Nelson and his wife.

[redqueen]

87. Ugh... lazy.... you DO know you can look this up for yourself, right?

:eyes:

Any person who willfully attempts in any manner to evade or defeat any tax imposed by this title or the payment thereof shall, in addition to other penalties provided by law, be guilty of a felony and, upon conviction thereof, shall be fined not more than $100,000 ($500,000 in the case of a corporation), or imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both, together with the costs of prosecution.


Now... do not post to me ever again. :rofl:

[MNDemNY]

110. True, they very seldom do, but jail is an option.

[MNDemNY]

109. Wrong.

[Changenow]

24. Please explain what happens if someone

fails to pay the fine.

[ProSense]

42. Their wages are garnished.

Their income tax return is adjusted. Similar to what would have happened if health care had passed in 1994. Except then the proposal was to garnish the cost of coverage.

People are distorting this beyond belief. The IRS, except for criminal tax cheats, uses a civil process to resolve these issues.

The IRS is not going to bottleneck a system for 2.5 percent of someone's income, and they certainly are not going to suddenly begin treating people who try to avoid such a small penalty as criminals. It's absurd.

[redqueen]

55. Yep... people are distorting this beyond belief.

I guess people have learned a trick or two from the RW.

[Loge23]

7. But, if I go to jail....

....will I get government-provided health care???
Hmmmm

[MNDemNY]

12. Yes, you will. That is a highlight of this bill!

;)

[alc]

14. Will I be punished if I don't buy health insurance? Yes

Will I go to jail if I don't accept my punishment? The bill says you can be sent to jail for not accepting your punishment.

[ProSense]

18. That's complete nonsense.

This is a perfect example of how deluded some on the left have become.

There are people every day whose wages are garnished by the IRS, many for taxes owed years before.

That one of the top Constitutional experts, who happens to be progressive, would state the facts, only to have these be denied by so-called progressives is surreal.




edited for clarity.

[MNDemNY]

30. Are you saying that nobody goes to jail for not paying taxes??

You are idiotic.

[closeupready]

35. That is exactly what is he attempting to imply. I doubt he will admit that.

n/t

[MNDemNY]

44. She will not even admit her willingness to capitulate to Stupak in order to get a 'win"

[closeupready]

47. Oooo, I didn't know that.

Makes more sense now.

[MNDemNY]

54. Her only goal is ..

a Rose Garden bill signing. A "win" (so to speak) nothing else matters.

[Hippo_Tron]

60. Do you know of any cases where a person who really couldn't afford to pay went to prison?

Again, I haven't researched this a whole lot, but it seems like the people who go to prison for tax reasons either committed fraud or some sort or had the means and simply refused to pay.

[MNDemNY]

115. That is not the argument.

If you are assessed the fine/penalty/surtax (whatever you want to call it) it is assumed you CAN afford to pay, therefore you are "refusing, avoiding payment, you can be fined, and or imprisoned under today's tax code.

[Hippo_Tron]

117. You can in theory be imprisoned, but people are very rarely imprisoned

And I don't see that changing with the mandate. The hysteria about mass numbers of poor people going to prison because they can't afford to pay is unwarranted. The amount of people who actually go to prison for not paying is a small fraction of the people who don't pay and that fraction is made up of assholes who have the money but simply refuse to pay their taxes.

[MNDemNY]

119. Not "in theory", "in FACT"

Is it only seldom? yes. Does that matter? no.

[Hippo_Tron]

121. For the sake of honest debate the difference matters a great deal

There's a difference between arguing "If you have money and you repeatedly refuse to pay your taxes you will go to prison" and "You will go to prison if you can't afford to pay this tax". Arguing that nobody should go to prison for not paying taxes is a perfectly valid position. Distorting the facts to scare people into thinking they will go to prison because of their inability to pay is dishonest.

[closeupready]

123. The fact is that nobody goes to jail right now due to a failure to buy health insurance.

After this legislation passes, out of 300 million people, it's likely that some will. That is a RADICAL reversal from the liberal tradition here.

[Hippo_Tron]

128. If by "some" you mean a dozen or so idiot tea-baggers, then yes

There are lots of people in this country who don't or can't pay their taxes. The ones that actually go to prison are a tiny fraction of those people. These are the people who constantly evade the IRS' attempts to collect their taxes. They largely the right wing nutjobs who have the money to pay but think that taxes are unconstitutional and so what they are doing is perfectly legitimate.

I'm sure that once the mandate passes there will be a few right wing nutjobs who spend every moment of their day trying to evade the IRS' collection of this tax and they might wind up in prison. In other words, you can indeed wind up in prison for not paying your taxes. You just have to try REALLY REALLY REALLY hard to get there.

[MNDemNY]

124. There is NO honesty in saying that one is NOT subject to imprisonment

for not paying tax penalties owed. They in fact are. To say otherwise is spin.

[Hippo_Tron]

125. I'm not denying that...

I'm telling you that this fact is being used to scare people into believing that they will go to prison if this bill passes. That is dishonest.

[Hippo_Tron]

126. Dupe n/t

[kestrel91316]

62. WRONG. This is a RW lie. You CANNOT under any circumstances

be jailed in the US for not paying a civil penalty. We do not have "debtor's prison" here.

The proposed fine for not getting health insurance is a CIVIL penalty. I don't support it, but the RW lies about it are beyond stupid.

[Hippo_Tron]

122. You can eventually go to prison for not paying your taxes, but...

You have to try really really hard to get to that point. The IRS will take any number of measures to collect taxes and generally people wind up in prison because they of some fraud they committed in the process on averting these measures.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

19. I'm behind a firewall that won't permit blogspot.com

Please post the relevant passages.

Thank-you! :hi:

[ipaint]

39. Here you go.

The newest meme of opposition to the health insurance plan is that if you don't obey the individual mandate to purchase health insurance, you will go to jail.

This is false.

Section 501 of the House bill imposes a tax of 2.5 percent of adjusted gross income. You are exempted from the tax if you already have qualifying health insurance from your employer, if you receive benefits from Medicare or Medicaid, if you are a dependent, if you are overseas, and if you have religions objections. You also get subsidies in the form of tax credits and tax deductions if your income is below a certain level; and if you are in poverty you are already exempted because you participate in Medicaid.

If you are not exempted, and you don't purchase health insurance, you just pay a higher tax. You don't go to jail.

Now, if you refuse to pay your taxes, the government will fine you in the same way that it does whenever you refuse to pay your taxes. Prison is also a possibility for the most determined tax cheats, although generally speaking prison terms are reserved for the most egregious violations of the tax laws.

So if you have the following choices: If you are not exempted, you must buy qualifying health insurance. If you'd rather not, for whatever reasons, you can pay a higher tax. If you pay your taxes, nobody will come after you.

If you don't want to pay your taxes, the government will punish you, not because you object to buying health insurance, but because the government doesn't like it whenever you don't pay your taxes. It also doesn't like it when people don't pay their taxes because they object to the government's defense spending.
----------------------------


According to this article the only folks who don't pay their health ins. tax fine will be those who would "rather not".

[kestrel91316]

68. NO ONE goes to jail in the US for not paying taxes. EVER.

They can and do go to jail for CHEATING on their taxes fraudulently, or failure to file a return, both of which are CRIMINAL offenses.

Failure to obtain health insurance in the proposed law is a CIVIL offense.

If you do not understand the difference between civil and criminal law, you need to stop posting about it, lol.

[ipaint]

83. That's from prosense's link. Tell him. n/t

[Autumn]

85. They should just garnish your wages and leave

the IRS out of it. The IRS has too much leeway.

[GMA]

22. How did we go from free universal health care

to this?

[redqueen]

25. "free"

*roffle*

[MNDemNY]

26. By rolling over to the industry before we even started.

Now we are rolling over to Catholic Bishops. We are truly through the looking glass.

[ipaint]

29. Wall Street

There is no way in hell they were going to watch the health industry investment business go down the tubes a as a result of real reform.

The steady influx of taxpayer cash fixed that. Tying it in with the irs just gives the taxpayer that extra incentive to pay up. Sort of like a massive taser.

[Cleita]

33. Mandatory car insurance has had a possibility for jail sentences.

Read this:

https://www.carinsurance.com/kb/content35892.aspx

Circumstances similar to those can lead to jail time with health insurance also unless there is really specific language in the bill forbidding it.

[Fumesucker]

37. Your link does not say that..

It says that non payment of taxes will eventually lead to prison.

So the eventual outcome of not buying health insurance very well could indeed be jail if you do not have the money to pay the extra tax.

Your car breaks down and you have no way to get out and earn a living without it, fix car or pay for insurance or pay tax?

Decisions, decision, all it will take is one not particularly unusual emergency situation to put you on track for going to prison.

And you *still* won't get health care even if you pay the fucking tax.

I'm sure you've heard the term "Catch 22"..

[ipaint]

45. Or a $5000.00 deductible/co-pay. n/t

[Zodiak]

50. There are a cpouple of prominent DUers who do that sort of thing

They know few people read the links themselves, so they post it to lend credence to their arguments knowing few will check. They also ignore anyone that says there is a problem with the links, so do not expect an answer to your inquiry.

[ProSense]

58. No it doesn't

Section 501 of the House bill imposes a tax of 2.5 percent of adjusted gross income. You are exempted from the tax if you already have qualifying health insurance from your employer, if you receive benefits from Medicare or Medicaid, if you are a dependent, if you are overseas, and if you have religions objections. You also get subsidies in the form of tax credits and tax deductions if your income is below a certain level; and if you are in poverty you are already exempted because you participate in Medicaid.

If you are not exempted, and you don't purchase health insurance, you just pay a higher tax. You don't go to jail.

Now, if you refuse to pay your taxes, the government will fine you in the same way that it does whenever you refuse to pay your taxes. Prison is also a possibility for the most determined tax cheats, although generally speaking prison terms are reserved for the most egregious violations of the tax laws.

As it stands today, only 100 in 150 million people were jailed for failing to pay taxes.


People are distorting this beyond belief. The IRS, except for criminal tax cheats, uses a civil process to resolve these issues.

People's income tax return is adjusted or their wages are garnished.

The IRS is not going to bottleneck a system for 2.5 percent of someone's income, and they certainly are not going to suddenly begin treating people who try to avoid such a small penalty as criminals. It's absurd.

[Fumesucker]

67. If you cannot pay you will go to prison..

It's really that simple.

Like I said, one relatively normal emergency and you can wind up in a world of hurt with the IRS.

I don't think you have any idea how many Americans are hanging on by their fingernails financially speaking, one tiny push and they can easily fall over the precipice.

Mandatory insurance is going to be that push for a great many more people than you let yourself realize.

[SammyWinstonJack]

70. "Catch 22" That about covers this insanity.

Will the government take into consideration ones' debt to income ratio?

Don't make enough to pay the outrageous health insurance rates, but make too much to qualify for subsidies so the government taxes you and you can't pay that tax so the IRS fines you.

Puts a lien on your house or garnishes your wages, seizes your bank account.

NICE! :eyes:

Screwed by this great health insurance reform

[Cha]

38. Rec'd to get the facts out there..

[MNDemNY]

49. But this post is a bald faced lie.

What facts are you getting out?

[AllentownJake]

57. That one doesn't care

I believe I remember it using the term left wing orgy of blood or something like that when getting upset about a critical thread.

[Zodiak]

90. That one simply does not think...ever

Might as well not post, really, because what will be said the in the posts is predictable.

No intellectual honesty at all.

To be honest, I find it rather sad. I would hate to be seen as a blind follower.

[Cha]

140. Just so we're clear..I take it as a badge of honor to

be dissed by you.

[Zodiak]

43. Sigh

Every day with the talking points.

The TRUTH is in between the two sides on this one.

Will the bill force you to buy health insurance? YES
If you fail to get the insurance and the government thought you could, will you be fined? YES
If you fail to pay your fine, can you be jailed? YES
If you fail to pay your fine, are you likely to be jailed? NO, but they will get the $$$ from you regardless.

So the TRUTH is that there will be punishment for no insurance, and that punishment DOES possibly cover jail time.

Neither the "you WILL go to jail" side of the argument nor the "you will NOT go to jail" people are right on this.

[kestrel91316]

73. You cannot be jailed in the US for failure to pay a CIVIL penalty, no matter

how large it is, or how much interest accumulates over time. We do not have debtor's prison in the US.

Jail is for CRIMINAL offenses.

[AllentownJake]

78. Actually you can

Contempt of Court but failure to pay taxes is a criminal offense.

[Zodiak]

88. I guess all of those people in jail for tax evasion would be glad to know that n/t

[AllentownJake]

46. The bill comes with a penalty tax

if you don't pay your taxes the IRS has several recourses, one of which is imprisonment.

The more obvious obtion is siezing of assets or garnishment of wages.

[ipaint]

56. And the punishment for an ins. company denying care illegally?

Or cheating a paying customer out of a thousand bucks. Slap on the hand maybe.


And the ins. companies are pushing the senate hard for larger fines.

[AllentownJake]

59. They'll get them

it will be part of the compromise to bring Lieberman on. We are being played and I laugh at the DLC idiots on here cheering their own destruction.

[ipaint]

63. Exactly.

The authoritarian law and order for the lower classes only crowd eats this stuff up. Until it takes a chunk out off their own behinds.

[Name removed]

65. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProSense]

66. "I laugh at the DLC idiots on here cheering"

That's your problem. You're more interested in distortions than facts. There is nothing DLC about disliking distortions.

[AllentownJake]

72. Good Afternoon Pro

[ProSense]

77. Could never figure out which one you are

The brown image on far right?

[AllentownJake]

80. Nah

Pretty sure I'm the sheep dog.

This is what I think this OP is

[redqueen]

95. What kills me is that they'll cry and whine about how poor progressives are bullied...

but then they'll turn around and dish it out with the best of 'em.

:rofl:

[ProSense]

111. It's amazing to watch people take stock in a claim that requires ignoring the facts. n/t

[depakid]

106. There's currently no tort recourse against companies denying valid claims if they fall under ERISA

all one can do is hire an attorney with their own money and attempt to recover the amount in benefits that should have paid.

Small solace to the widows and orphans. And there are MANY of them.

[ipaint]

141. Funny how that works every time.

lower classes, full weight of the law descends / upper classes. meh...you must of had a good reason to not follow the law we'll give you a second chance.

[ProSense]

64. Failure to pay a penalty doesn't automatically mean jail. In fact, it rarely does.

Section 501 of the House bill imposes a tax of 2.5 percent of adjusted gross income. You are exempted from the tax if you already have qualifying health insurance from your employer, if you receive benefits from Medicare or Medicaid, if you are a dependent, if you are overseas, and if you have religions objections. You also get subsidies in the form of tax credits and tax deductions if your income is below a certain level; and if you are in poverty you are already exempted because you participate in Medicaid.

If you are not exempted, and you don't purchase health insurance, you just pay a higher tax. You don't go to jail.

Now, if you refuse to pay your taxes, the government will fine you in the same way that it does whenever you refuse to pay your taxes. Prison is also a possibility for the most determined tax cheats, although generally speaking prison terms are reserved for the most egregious violations of the tax laws.

As it stands today, only 100 in 150 million people were jailed for failing to pay taxes.

People are distorting this beyond belief. The IRS, except for criminal tax cheats, uses a civil process to resolve these issues.

People's income tax return is adjusted or their wages are garnished.

The IRS is not going to bottleneck a system for 2.5 percent of someone's income, and they certainly are not going to suddenly begin treating people who try to avoid such a small penalty as criminals. It's absurd.

It's easier and cheaper for them to garnish someone's pay than threatening thousands with jail.

[AllentownJake]

69. I think I said that Pro

"The more obvious obtion is siezing of assets or garnishment of wages."

[ProSense]

75. Glad you acknowledge the distortion

A few posts back, I could swear you were claiming that the facts were a DLC agenda.

[redqueen]

76. *roffle*

[AllentownJake]

81. Is jail a possibility

yes,

More likely the IRS will go to your work and garnish your wages, the act alone will jeopardize your employment or result in lost of advancement opportunity.

[ProSense]

89. For 100 in 150 million,

the biggest tax cheats, some who have evaded the IRS for years, owing tens of thousands So its highly improbable. Now deal with reality.

[AllentownJake]

93. Well it is pretty easy to verify

and a low hanging fruit from an IRS prospective, all they need is proof of insurance and an income level to know whether or not to asses the fine/tax.

[Echo In Light]

79. As if the seizure of one's assets, or garnishing of wages is 'no biggie' in and of itself

yikes

[ProSense]

82. It's not jail as the distortion goes.

That's a "biggie."

[AllentownJake]

86. Yes and the wonderful part of the IRS powers is that

they don't even need to have a hearing or trial to begin garnishing wages or siezing assets. Tax court is the only place you are guilty till proven innocent.

[Name removed]

91. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[redqueen]

116. "Pussies"? Really? (nt)

[closeupready]

92. As we all remember, Hillary's plan was condemned because she admitted

that garnishment would be one means of making people (who refused) pay for insurance.

[AllentownJake]

94. Yep

It was in Primary literature.

[Bluenorthwest]

118. I remember Obama's literature and TV commercials

portraying Clinton as a terrible heartless person for supporting mandated insurance backed up with wage garnishment. Obama claimed to be vehemently opposed to any such thing. Apparently it was a posture more than a position.

[closeupready]

127. He's either making sausage or playing chess.

Not sure which. :crazy:

[varelse]

143. Perhaps multitasking?

:shrug:

[ProSense]

96. And I remember

a lot of people still wanted her to be president. In fact, if health care had passed in 1994, wages would have been garnished for mandated private health insurance. Except then the proposal was to garnish the cost of coverage, not a penalty.

[AllentownJake]

97. What did you think of the Hillary plan 1 year and 6 months ago?

Careful, I have the answer.

[ProSense]

98. Obama's was better

He picked up Kerry's catastrophic care coverage, which is huge.

[AllentownJake]

99. Neither of us were oh to happy about Mr. Krugman's analysis

Just saying.

[ProSense]

101. Who cares? Mandates are part of the bill

and the penalty doesn't include jail.

[AllentownJake]

103. LOL

I love your principles or lack there of.

The penalty can include jail, however if someone goes to jail, it is because they are trying to create a Supreme Court case.

[ProSense]

105. You never did pay attention

Mandates are a part of all universal plans. Obama smartly stress affordability before mandates. It's why he can insist on a public option now.

[AllentownJake]

112. I have to send you some of the primary lit

you'd enjoy it

:rofl:

[ProSense]

114. No need to, I paid attention. n/t

[laughingliberal]

142. And when I see him insist on a public option,

I will be right there cheerleading with you. So far, we have a very weak public option to which few will have access, meaning it will likely not control the premium costs much. A pool of, possibly, 6 million people will not do much to spread risk and bring down the costs. President Obama's support for the public option has been very weak. He has called it a 'sliver' of the overall plan. His CofS called progressive ads run in favor of the public option 'fucking stupid.' Progressives in the House who have tried to avoid throwing the average citizen to the wolves (insurance cartels) have been silenced and told to play nice while the Blue Dogs have been able to weaken the public option and turn back reproductive rights. And this is in the more 'liberal' House version. I can hardly wait to see what comes out of conference with the Senate which already has a more conservative bill.

I've been out there in the trenches for years fighting for reform of this horrible health care system. A few people will be helped by this bill but it is certainly not a big 'win' for most of the American people. Keeping the current employer based system in place means continuing stagnation of wages while employers continue to incur the costs of rising premiums.

Those who are poor but have, in the past, fallen just outside the income level to qualify for Medicaid will be helped as the income level for Medicaid is being expanded. People who have no insurance through work and have some financial means will be able to get insurance. If they are at or below 400% of federal poverty level the premium will be subsidized to keep their cost at or below 11% of their income. People who can afford coverage but who have been denied due to preexisting conditions will be helped. People without insurance in upper age brackets who make over 400% of federal poverty level, such as myself and my husband, are screwed. Not saying it won't help anyone but it is certainly not, imho, cause for dancing in the streets. Nothing here that keeps me from wishing I'd been born in Canada, England, France, Australia or that I was still young enough to emigrate.

As for jail, it is unlikely but it is possible. Denying that it could happen is as bad as the RW's who are acting as if it is automatic.

edited for grammar

[billh58]

120. The bottom line is

that both sides of this argument are correct -- up to a point.

"The House bill imposes a surtax of 2.5% of income, up to a maximum of $2500 on incomes of $100,000 or more, for failing to maintain health insurance. (There are “hardship” exemptions for those who can’t find affordable insurance, under some definition of affordability.)"

"Willful refusal to pay federal taxes is punishable both civilly and criminally. (”Willful” means that you can’t be put in jail for not having enough money to pay your taxes, only for refusing to pay them although you could.)"

"Therefore, someone who refuses to get insurance and then deliberately refuses to pay the tax surcharge could, in an extreme case, face jail: just like someone who refuses to pay any other federal tax."

http://www.samefacts.com/2009/11/watching-conservatives/pants-on-fire-award-pelosi-wants-to-put-you-in-jail-for-not-buying-health-insurance/

:hi:

[twiceshy]

129. However you slice it, it will be enforced........

I think a person should have the choice to buy inexpensive catastrophic health insurance, but as I understand this plan, that will not be available. In effect young healthy people, Gen X, Gen Y, etc., will be called to subsidize us baby-boomers, by being forced to purchase more HI than they need.

[billh58]

131. You mean

kind of like Social Security and Medicare?

[Autumn]

130. The IRS 'corrected" my taxes one

year. Came back on me with interest and penalties. Getting that straightened out was a long nightmare, and it was their mistake. I didn't have to pay the interest and penalties, but got audited for four years after that. I hate the IRS, they can really complicate your life.

[ProSense]

132. What does hating the IRS have to do with the fact that no one is going to jail over this?

The IRS collects Medicare and Social Security, and they would be responsible for collecting taxes if we were going to a single-payer system.

[Autumn]

133. Penalties, the IRS will

collect them. They collect the penalty if you don't buy insurance. If you don't qualify for subsidized rates and can't afford to pay for insurance the IRS collects the penalty. So you deal with the IRS, who are so sweet and helpful.

[ProSense]

134. Collecting a penalty the same as going to jail. n/t

[Autumn]

136. I never said it was,

what I do know is that the IRS has many choices open as to how they will collect the penalties. If you owe the IRS tax money and penalties they can seize your assets and if that doesn't satisfy what you owe they can go after you in other ways to get what you owe them. However on reflection if that means jail time, that's one of their options.

[Echo In Light]

135. There's doc films available showcasing the NIGHTMARE they put families through

[Autumn]

137. Most unreasonable , nasty

organization there is. They can make you miserable.

[Echo In Light]

138. BRUTAL! Organized crime. Our govt is basically part of a global crime syndicate

[Autumn]

139. And our Government is going to

use them as a collection agency.:scared: Jail might be a kinder solution than monetary penalties.

[Uncle Joe]

100. It seems to me, that giving an exemption on a tax for religious objection reasons would violate

the First Amendment?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

71. KInda seems like...

...a distinction without a difference.

The only real out is to claim religious objection if they try to impose the 2.5% tax.

The rationale has been the gov't needs the money to pay for benefits. Perhaps price conrols and compensation limits would be better as these are the things that are driving up costs in the first place. It's our money they're taking to pay for obscene profiteering; let's just end the profiteering angle...just like on Wall St.

[Odin2005]

145. I see the hysterical people have been unrec'ing this thread to hell.