I'm torn. Honoring war dead is one thing, but

[SoCalDem]

when it becomes so ritualistic, so full of congratulatory pageantry, it may be a psychological "nudge" to keep on doing it.

All the choirs, the flags & parades, to "honor" the ones who "gave their lives" or who are the "fallen".

They did not GIVE their lives, and they did not "oops-fall", they were SENT to war by a GOVERNMENT that for some reason, could not negotiate, and chose to fight...with other-people's-children, of course.

Wars, looked at long-term, are an oddity. We are trading with those countries, are allies with them, even friends now. Did the spilled blood of war do that? or did each side finally have so much loss and fatigue, that they each said "uncle" and decided to talk?

We fought the British, and we are best pals
We fought the Philippines and now we are friends
We fought Germany TWICE, and now we are "bestest-buds"
We fought part of Spain and we vacation there now
We fought Japan, and we are their "parent-turned-buddy"
We fought Viet Nam, and now they are valued trading partners (and makers of cheap shit we love to buy)
The exception is North Korea, but we have shunned them,but South Korea is very prosperous, and more powerful than ever in their history
We even fought part of ourselves, and now eagerly accept presidents from their "parts" (although sometimes the war still seethes, just below the surface)

For the family and friends of a deceased soldier, there has to be something to make the pain less; a reason to accept the unacceptable, and that may be the pageantry, the idolization of the "fallen warrior". They have to be made to believe that their son/ daughter/ mother/ father/ uncle/ brother/ sister/ cousin/ aunt/ friend died for something. To believe otherwise means they died for no good reason.. that their lives were thrown away.

But during and after those parades, there are more "fallen" being added to the list for next year, more headstones being carved, and the leaders who place the wreaths, all go out to dinner with friends, and resume their normal lives...few if any of "their own" are in harm's way...and then we wait for next year's pageantry.:(

[Mari333]

1. right now all those kids are dying for corporations and greed

it makes me ill to watch the fake pageantry.

[Ruby the Liberal]

2. I don't think its fair to call it "fake"

Some of us really do believe in honoring those who chose to serve - for whatever reason compelled them to enlist.

I blame the government for their decisions (my ex was a Vietnam Vet who would have night terrors decades after the fact), but that doesn't mean that our honoring the men and women who serve is "fake".

We need to bring them home and honor them while they are still alive, IMO.

[arcadian]

23. "just following orders", huh?

Where have I heard that before?

[Ruby the Liberal]

33. Enough of you.

[Thothmes]

13. Not true. They are there because the President of the United

States, and a Congress ordered them there. Now if you think that President Obama is a tool of the corperation, ok. If you believe that the 400 or so members of the house are in the pay of the corporations and that the 100 members of the Senate of the are in the hands of the corporations. OK.
but in fact it is now President Obama and a strongly Democratic Congress that now control the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. Those men and women over there are there because a Democratically controlled government has sent them there.

[C_Lawyer09]

21. Devils Advocate

I've read several of your posts, and agree with much of what you say. I also realize there may be some alterior motives to why we are involved so much overseas, protecting, controlling resource interests etc. But just what if... What if troops in Afghanistan are keeping Pakistani nukes from falling into dangerous hands, or what if we stick it out, and are the force that ensure greater rights for women in Afghanistan/Pakistan? I can see you're raw about this, but understand there are many whom do feel they are fighting the good fight for good reasons. I agree in large part with your position on the draft.

[stray cat]

3. When more Americans serve then you may have a point until then you and I enrich outselves

while others sacrifice. I'll listen to a veteran who has experienced combat on this point but not one who stays home in comfort without risk.

Its like Dick Cheney pretending to be a warrior.....

[wolfgangmo]

30. Bingo - we have a winner.

Yes. While I honor the soldiers who have either chosen to serve, in too many cases those who "serve" do so just so that they have a chance of getting a decent education and then a decent job and no longer have to live in generational poverty or do so because their parents make too much for them to get student grants/loans but too little to help with college so they elist for the education benefit.

In truth, most of those who serve do not make a career of it, are not in it purely to serve, and honestly just hope to make it out alive and not too damaged in mind or body.

Until we have a true unbiased draft where EVERY kid has exactly the same chance to get drafted (and none of this bullshit exemptions, deferments, or future-rock-star-so-scared-he-shit-in-his-pants-for-a-week-to-avoid-the-draft-and-then-became-an-insane-2nd-amendment-idiot -- they should have hosed his ass off in the parking lot and then shipped him to the front line -- it would have saved us from listening to his current stupidity and years of really his really crappy music -- ahem) then there is no real noble sacrifice. It is just window dressing in many cases.

Don't get me started on how the military started to lower the bar so far that they were taking prisoners, gang members, religious nuts, end of timers, and white supremicists. I don't honor those asswipes at all.

This does not mean that we shouldn't honor them, completely, and support them with a fully funded VA and education benefits. Yes, even the aformentioned asswipes, because we just don't know, and a civilized country honors it's dead. Of course a civilized country doesn't pick fights like a bully.

[C_Lawyer09]

32. Recruiter?

Unless you have any familiarity with current recruiting and or the AR 601-210, kindly shut the hell up. You'd honor the fallen Houston Texas Battalion Recruiters by doing so.

[TransitJohn]

4. 2 things I really don't understand about our country.

1) The rampant anti-intellectualism
2) The military fetish

[burning rain]

14. Part of (2) is that the US hasn't really had its ass kicked in a war.

That seemed necessary to cure Germany and Japan of their former militarism. A nasty cure that one doesn't wish for, though.

[PearliePoo2]

15. I don't get it either

+1 :thumbsup:

[AndrewP]

18. Same here

:shrug:

[C_Lawyer09]

22. Maybe you're against pro-war intellectualism

Of the neo-conservative, Project for the new american century brand.

[bertman]

5. You are right in SO MANY ways, SoCalDem. But, it is also a day when the families and friends

of those who sacrificed can honor them.

I'm a Vietnam vet. I hate this type of celebration. At work, there are four of us who are vets and we wish each other Happy Veterans Day and thank each other for our service. We do that because we share a common bond, not because we support the war now or even supported the ones we were in--Vietnam and Desert Storm. But it's not about us. It's about others who died. I keep telling myself that. And I keep opposing these wars of choice.

I appreciate what you have said, and I wish that one day we would have Veterans Day without having to have it during a war.

OUT NOW!! Too many innocent Americans and Afghans are dying for the WAR PROFITEERS.

Rec.

[SoCalDem]

8. I remember "Decoration Day"

we would go (no parades ..no falderal) to the cemetery and clean the graves & put flowers on them

and on Armistice Day we would buy poppies & put them on our coat lapels..

Parades were for 4th of July

[bertman]

17. I have never heard of Decoration Day, but I like what you described.

[SoCalDem]

19. It's what Memorial Day used to be,

The older folks in my family still called it Decoration Day .. so we did too:)

http://www.usmemorialday.org/backgrnd.html



Memorial Day, originally called Decoration Day, is a day of remembrance for those who have died in our nation's service. There are many stories as to its actual beginnings, with over two dozen cities and towns laying claim to being the birthplace of Memorial Day. There is also evidence that organized women's groups in the South were decorating graves before the end of the Civil War: a hymn published in 1867, "Kneel Where Our Loves are Sleeping" by Nella L. Sweet carried the dedication "To The Ladies of the South who are Decorating the Graves of the Confederate Dead" (Source: Duke University's Historic American Sheet Music, 1850-1920). While Waterloo N.Y. was officially declared the birthplace of Memorial Day by President Lyndon Johnson in May 1966, it's difficult to prove conclusively the origins of the day. It is more likely that it had many separate beginnings; each of those towns and every planned or spontaneous gathering of people to honor the war dead in the 1860's tapped into the general human need to honor our dead, each contributed honorably to the growing movement that culminated in Gen Logan giving his official proclamation in 1868. It is not important who was the very first, what is important is that Memorial Day was established. Memorial Day is not about division. It is about reconciliation; it is about coming together to honor those who gave their all.

General John A. Logan
Library of Congress, Prints & Photographs Division,

Memorial Day was officially proclaimed on 5 May 1868 by General John Logan, national commander of the Grand Army of the Republic, in his General Order No. 11, and was first observed on 30 May 1868, when flowers were placed on the graves of Union and Confederate soldiers at Arlington National Cemetery. The first state to officially recognize the holiday was New York in 1873. By 1890 it was recognized by all of the northern states. The South refused to acknowledge the day, honoring their dead on separate days until after World War I (when the holiday changed from honoring just those who died fighting in the Civil War to honoring Americans who died fighting in any war). It is now celebrated in almost every State on the last Monday in May (passed by Congress with the National Holiday Act of 1971 (P.L. 90 - 363) to ensure a three day weekend for Federal holidays), though several southern states have an additional separate day for honoring the Confederate war dead: January 19 in Texas, April 26 in Alabama, Florida, Georgia, and Mississippi; May 10 in South Carolina; and June 3 (Jefferson Davis' birthday) in Louisiana and Tennessee.

In 1915, inspired by the poem "In Flanders Fields," Moina Michael replied with her own poem:

We cherish too, the Poppy red
That grows on fields where valor led,
It seems to signal to the skies
That blood of heroes never dies.

She then conceived of an idea to wear red poppies on Memorial day in honor of those who died serving the nation during war. She was the first to wear one, and sold poppies to her friends and co-workers with the money going to benefit servicemen in need. Later a Madam Guerin from France was visiting the United States and learned of this new custom started by Ms.Michael and when she returned to France, made artificial red poppies to raise money for war orphaned children and widowed women. This tradition spread to other countries. In 1921, the Franco-American Children's League sold poppies nationally to benefit war orphans of France and Belgium. The League disbanded a year later and Madam Guerin approached the VFW for help. Shortly before Memorial Day in 1922 the VFW became the first veterans' organization to nationally sell poppies. Two years later their "Buddy" Poppy program was selling artificial poppies made by disabled veterans. In 1948 the US Post Office honored Ms Michael for her role in founding the National Poppy movement by issuing a red 3 cent postage stamp with her likeness on it

snip

[wolfgangmo]

31. Canada still has a memorial day.

You can't go anywhere in the country without finding poppies to be worn on your lapel (i.e. in flanders fields ...) sold by and benefiting the Legion. Everyone wears them for about a month. I know people who buy extras so that they can have a years supply.

And lots of people get together to honor the war veterans. On the other hand Canada hasn't often been involved in a war of choice.

[EFerrari]

6. I have always felt the same way. n/t

[lonestarnot]

7. Fireworks are beautiful colors, but dangerous, loud and stinky.

[cleverusername]

9. Moms ready to sacrifice offspring for honor ?

Veterans day *could* be a solemn day to honor soldiers' sacrifices without glorifying war. Right now, we have pomp and pageantry that glorifies violence and war. I think that, in part, the fact that the military hasn't won a war since WWII drives the mythical obsession. We must be a legend in our own mind.

I was especially disturbed by the segments of mothers telling how great their sons were and what an honor it was for them to die. I didn't see any mothers of dead female soldiers. They must exist but the media does not cover it. The Empire wants all of us mothers to be prepared to sacrifice our offspring. Not me!

My dad fought in WWII and flew extra missions receiving a star. He returned and lived his life. He never bought into the propaganda. He just did what he had to do and moved on.

[patrice]

10. What bothers me about it is that "nudge" you mention. Self-fulfilling Prophecy.

We do these things, BECAUSE we do these things.

[HereSince1628]

11. YEs, what was a somber day has become jingoistic for the public

But consider that a full life knows both joy and sorrow, and a full life knows a balanced perspective. In a full life there is time for solemnity and the sober contemplation of the true cost benefits ratio of war. While some parade and go jingo, there is no reason that others cannot meditate.

Do some volunteer time at a VA hospital, with respect to seeing veterans' perspectives it's a real eye-opener. You'll find feelings that cover the entire spectrum.

Accepting their feelings, whatever those feelings are, is a big part of honoring vets' service and sacrifices.

[cynatnite]

12. It's about never forgetting...

and I think it's rather presumptuous to think ANYONE has the right to tell a loved one who lost a spouse or their child that the lives of their loved ones was thrown away. Right or wrong, people need to cope and to make sense of losing someone they loved.

Like it or not, it does take a lot of guts to put on a uniform and whether they died in a shootout on a military installation, died in Vietnam, Iraq, or whatever...the very act of putting on a uniform means you are not just willing to risk your life...you are also putting faith in the leaders of this nation when it comes to going to war.

I don't view these losses as senseless or elevating them to warrior status in order to propegate wars. Some people actually do that and it's a disgrace to the memories of those who have died...whether you agree with that particular war or not.

Leaders like Bush have disgraced our military and those who have died. Every leader who CHOSE to send our military to war for dishonorable reasons are the ones who deserve our disrepect and our contempt. They are the ones who did the killing.

As for who we fought in the past...historically, that is how it is. We fought England and we're best buds with them.

I'm a vet and despite how torn I am about Veterans Day, I use today as a memorial to the fallen in hopes that in the future less wars will be fought.

[C_Lawyer09]

24. Why did you join?

It's interesting, the reasons are just as diverse as our current force

[cynatnite]

34. I was a single parent with no education and a dead end job...

That was why I joined.

[ChimpersMcSmirkers]

16. It's about remembering the sacrifice.

Those examples you give;

We fought the British, and we are best pals
We fought the Philippines and now we are friends
We fought Germany TWICE, and now we are "bestest-buds"
We fought part of Spain and we vacation there now
We fought Japan, and we are their "parent-turned-buddy

really only makes the opposite of your point, since it was only after going to war and converting those countries to democracies could we be "friends". England became a democracy so our relationship without the revolution would be similar to what India or Australia has with the UK. We wouldn't be pals with a nazi Germany or an imperial Japan. Vietnam never really had a true democracy.

In any case, some of those wars were completely appropriate and some weren't, but it all cases the soldiers who died all paid the same price and are owed the same respect and acknowledgment, regardless of the politics involved.

[C_Lawyer09]

25. Appreciated

and mother loving profound!

[EFerrari]

28. I'm not aware that the United States has ever "converted" any state

to a democracy.

Our wars against England certainly didn't "convert" their form of government.

The Phillipines had to fight its colonizers to get independence and also to deal with the Japanese in the middle of their efforts to gain independence.

I don't believe we sponsored the revolution that resulted in the Weimar Republic

Spain managed things in her own way. And Japan, well, we have very little to be proud of where Japan is concerned. To this day.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

20. They're Heroes.

And they've earned their parade.

[C_Lawyer09]

26. Hooah!

It's a shame there wasn't more of this philosophy when so many came back from Vietnam unwelcomed. I think sometimes people are quick to forget that the military is a sword wielded by politicians, or that many roles are played on many different fronts besides what are the popular topics of conversation. Who is always busting their asses to feed and immunize Somali's and saving Hatians during hurricanes?

[Bigmack]

27. Veterans... this country just makes too many of them! nt

[dionysus]

29. go tell one of the remaining WW2 veterans how fake it is and see how that goes for you.