Modern Warfare 2 - The offensive "Airport Mission"

[RyboSlybo]

Critics are furious over the violence of "Modern Warfare 2"--and one scene is causing all the problems.

Yesterday saw the release of one of the most hotly anticipated video games in recent memory, Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2. It's already been called an instant classic. And its extreme levels of violence in game are touching off controversy. Even gamers themselves are expressing dismay, saying the game borders "on snuff."

One scene in particular is causing the trouble: The game places you in the role of a terrorist, mowing down civilian bystanders. The set-up is that you're trying to infiltrate a band of Russian terrorists. To gain their trust, you've got to go on a killing spree at their leader's bidding. As your virtual commanding officer declares, "You don't know what it's already cost to put you next to him. It will cost you a piece of yourself. It'll cost nothing compared to everything you'll save." Destructoid has the video (WARNING):

Link to story...
http://www.fastcompany.com/blog/cliff-kuang/design-innovation/videogame-breaks-unspoken-rule-virtual-gore

----------

I bought the game and played it and wanted to see what this offensive mission was about. And when it was over I felt sick to my stomach. I can't imagine how any parent in their right mind could allow their child to play this game just because of this one level. If you don't know what I am talking about go to the story I linked and watch the video. The game does give you the option to skip this offensive level which when I saw the warning I was intrigued and had to see for myself. I imagine many kids are doing the same...

In a nutshell you are on an undercover mission working with terrorists. You go into a Russian airport and kill every unarmed civilian you can find. Some civilians are trying to drag away injured civilians to try and save them and they are easy targets for the terrorists and put down quickly. In the end the swat team comes and you have a major shootout where you kill many many police officers. Very graphic and very bloody. Parents beware, this game is rated M for mature for a reason.

I found the level offensive and on many blogs today I am finding many kids praising this level.

"I killed as many unarmed civilians as I could find! It was awesome!" Writes one teenager...

"I gunned the entire place down, killing literally everyone. Then I went back and played the mission again three more times. No care ever." Writes another...

"The only OFFENSIVE" thing about this mission was that I was forced to shoot innocent Russians rather than Yanks. Shame it wasn't set in LA ....." Writes yet another...

So my question for DU is this...

Am I making too much out of this? Is it really just a game? Can this have a negative impact on kids?

I say yes, what says DU?

[fascisthunter]

1. I love Games of all types

but this is crossing a line for me personally. The problem here though, is killing is killing whether you are a good guy or bad guy. But in fact it is all virtual... though desensitizing is real.

[BakedAtAMileHigh]

2. don't you have anything better to do?

The game isn't for kids: it is rated Mature and is sold only to those over 18.

Free expression is a bitch, but here's a clue: if you don't like the game, don't play it, and don't allow your kids to play it either. And for the record, I don't play them either.

[Taverner]

4. +100

[Posteritatis]

6. Ahh, but I can't micromanage *other* parents, so there oughta be a law!

Or something.

[negativenihil]

20. The Mature rating

is 17+, not 18+. AO is 18+ :)

[Skip Intro]

91. You mean like sit around and anonymously heckle people on an internet forum? nt

[Posteritatis]

3. Yes, you're making too much of it, and yes, it's really just a game

Let the moral panic resume!

Yawn.

[PVnRT]

5. No; it sounds like that mission is beyond the pale

I generally don't decry violence in games, but that is beyond disgusting - shooting people attempting to drag injured civilians away? Just wrong. I think it's compounded by the fact that you're supposed to be a "good guy" here. At least in GTA, you're a scum criminal and everyone knows it.

It seems that the game designers were more concerned with trying to be shocking rather than enhance gameplay, which is nothing surprising anymore. Why not have a mission to, say, assassinate a top government official? Steal secrets from the army?

[Codeine]

7. It's a game. Chill the fuck out.

If you don't like it, don't play it. But going around preaching the same tired sermon about videogames and violence is just boring.

[RyboSlybo]

9. Your right! Just like at Columbine when...

The murderers were praising the violence while killing their fellow students saying how it looked just like the violent video games they love to play??

I wonder where those two boys got their ideas from?

I wonder if this could possibly give any other kids some bad ideas?

If it doesn't make you sick to your stomach watching this... well... there is something wrong...

[Posteritatis]

10. Yes, yes, of course, Doom was the reason Columbine happened, right...

:eyes:

Hint: it's not nice to make up events in your arguments, such as the claim that they were comparing the shootings to video games while they were happening, which haven't shown up in anything reputable I'd ever read about the shootings since they happened.

Grownups call that "lying."

[Codeine]

12. Baloney.

Or in more Mature Rating terms, bullshit. The notion that videogames or music beget violence is a reichwing argument, not worthy of DUs consideration for even a second.

[Forkboy]

25. You sound like Lieberman calling Doom a "murder simulator".

[Odin2005]

41. Oh god, not THAT load of hysterical media-driven BS again.

I played Doom all the time, I'm no mass murderer. :eyes:

[RyboSlybo]

53. You guys all make good points... besides the put downs... but no worries

I'm am repeating what I heard on the news back when that went down, however maybe you are correct and those things were not said.

I am not saying the game created murderers by any means. But perhaps the game did give them some ideas as to how they wanted to carry out those killings...

I play these games as well and I am not a murderer.

I have never felt sick after playing a level on any video game including Grand Theft Auto... This left me feeling sick.

[gatorboy]

8. You do realize the game has a mature rating for a reason, correct?

And you're also aware that the average gamer is in their 30's?

It's not a kids market anymore. If it ever were.

Politicians & parents need to stop treating it that way.

[Posteritatis]

15. I really wish people got your "also aware" point there

For the most part the market's moving with the original demographic, but everyone still associates "game" with "elementary school" or something similarly ridiculous. Games were a kid's market when I was getting into them twenty years ago, but I know for sure my nephew and niece are far out of the target demographic for anything I play these days.

A lot of politicians and parents probably know that, or are at least aware of it, but that just won't do when there's moral panics to kick up.

I wonder why people don't flip out over, say, Dragon Age, with its deeply and horribly institutionalized systems of caste and racial discrimination that explicitly treat large chunks of the population as not real people, incidentally. If they're looking for something to panic over, they could at least be creative enough to venture outside of the FPS genre sometimes.

Of course, I have seen people seriously freak out about Spore on the grounds that destroying planets desensitizes children to murder...

[Xithras]

138. Exactly. Do these parents buy porn and dildoes for their kids too?

A parent who buys a mature rated videogame for their kid is just as irresponsible, and arguably just as abusive, as a parent who would hand their 10 year old son a Hustler, or buy their 12 year old daughter a dildo. Those thoughts rightfully horrify us because we understand that some things should be reserved for adults, or at least for people mature enough to view them appropriately and understand their purpose, context, and ramifications.

What we NEED are a couple of high profile prosecutions of parents who are handing these games to their kids. No DA would hesitate to prosecute the hypothetical "dildo parent" above, so how about prosecuting parents who are handing their kids these incredibly violent materials (contributing to the deliquency..), which are clearly marked and rated for mature players and adults only?

[SteppingRazor]

11. Must I remind everyone that in the Grand Theft Auto series...

you can sleep with hookers to restore your health level, but that it decreases your money level, but it's OK because afterward you can just kill the hooker and get your money back?

And of course, the hooker isn't armed, so it's not worth wasting ammo. Generally, it's better to just beat her to death with a baseball bat.


So, how is this new game problematic, given that GTA III came out in 2001?

[Codeine]

13. Baseball bat?

REAL gamers use the flexible purple double-ended dildo that you can find in the shower at the police station. My GTA weapon of choice! :evilgrin:

[SteppingRazor]

14. Touche.

:evilgrin:


Anyway, point being, while I'm sure the graphics and gameplay of the new game are amazing, light years ahead of GTA III, and so perhaps the ultraviolence seems more graphic, it's actually nothing we haven't seen before.

[XemaSab]

16. Since when is killing civilians part of warfare?

n/t

[Posteritatis]

17. Context is for the weak, apparently

As a more serious response, at least five thousand years, like it or not.

[deaniac21]

73. I take it you aren't familiar with the allied air offensive in europe

and japan in WWII.

[XemaSab]

78. Did I really need this?

:sarcasm:

[bertman]

95. Since whenever the first war broke out.

[negativenihil]

18. Got this game as well last night

...i had kept my head in the sand about the game and then it got hyped up around the office so i grabbed a copy. I was unaware of this part, but apparently it's old news around the net.

The scene in question imo is why this game should have been slapped with an AO rating. By the end of the scene i too felt rather rotten, but the scene is a key point in the game's overall story.

In any case, GTA:San Andreas gets hits with an AO rating for a bit of code that's inaccessable without modification... and then this slips out as an M rated title?

Don't get me wrong, im not calling for the game to be pulled from stores or censored. I just feel the M rating is far too light for such complex (and adult) game situations.

[Posteritatis]

21. Restricting a game to 17 and older is far too light?

What should it be? Twenty? Thirty?

[negativenihil]

23. As i said...

i feel this game should have been given the AO rating - 18+. Please don't make with the knee-jerk replied. I said very clearly that i am NOT calling for this game to be pulled from shelves or censored.

[Posteritatis]

24. Why is 17+ "far too light" and 18+ fine? (nt)

[negativenihil]

26. Because

...maybe it will make the hordes of parents buying it for 10-16 year olds think twice? Probably wishful thinking, but hey what are you going to do.

I get the feeling you're looking to get into a fight over this on the internet. I've got to warn you, i am a life long gamer.

[Posteritatis]

28. If it was AO they'd still buy it for their kids

GTA:SA is quite popular in that age group too, remember. Moving the line of acceptability up a few months won't do much of anything in that regard, especially since most people believe that games are intended purely for little kids anyway.

[gatorboy]

30. Problem with AO is no retail outlet will sell a game with that rating.

Is the ratings system a requirement for a game before it can be sent to stores?

[negativenihil]

34. The ratings

are required by the big three console makers. Also - i think it's less of an issue with stores and more of an issue that the big three will refuse to publish AO rated games (it's in the agreement to develop for these systems).

Personally i think it's silly to have a rating and then to barely use it (much like nc-17 in movies)

[gatorboy]

36. Found this on the ESRB site:

http://www.esrb.org/ratings/faq.jsp#2

Are all games required to have a rating?

The rating system is voluntary, although virtually all games that are sold at retail in the U.S. and Canada are rated by the ESRB. Many retailers, including most major chains, have policies to only stock or sell games that carry an ESRB rating, and most console manufacturers will only permit games that have been rated by ESRB to be published for their platforms.



How many games does the ESRB rate?

The ESRB typically assigns over 1,000 ratings per year. In 2008, ESRB completed 1,677 rating assignments. For a breakdown of ratings by category, click here.

---------------------------------------------

[negativenihil]

38. My bad

I was under the impression the ratings were required. Thanks for the heads up.

[gatorboy]

44. I had to look it up myself.

I remember when comic books had to be published with a "Approved by the Comics Code" symbol on their books before most retailers would display them in their stores. Like games, it wasn't necessarily required so eventually the comic companies simply stopped submitting comics to be rated. No one seems to have noticed.

[Posteritatis]

47. Thank goodness game ratings aren't as puritan as the Comics Code, at least. (nt)

[gatorboy]

51. I can't remember if The Comics Code ever charged to rate comics.

The ESRB's fee to "approve" a game is $2,500. with over 1,000 new ratings a year that's a pretty good take.

[negativenihil]

31. Yes

but the difference is GTA:SA was hit with an AO - over a portion of the game that is INACCESSIBLE without some sort of modification to the game. Totally different in my opinion.

[Posteritatis]

37. The media fearwank is similar enough, IMHO. (nt)

[negativenihil]

40. Hell

my first thought after finishing the airport level was "the media is going to have a SHITFIT over this".

At the very least - you're not rewarded with a trophy or achievement after completing that level. I was honestly dreading that trophy sound when the level finished, but was glad it didn't happen.

[gatorboy]

45. So it's good?

Considered buying this today. Problem is I have a shelf full of PS3 games gathering dust that I tell myself I'll eventually get to but never do.

I generally just play ALOT of Quake III Arena (Now Quake Live).

[negativenihil]

50. Oh yeah

It's a REAL slick game. i found it to be very impressive so far. Haven't ventured online yet (there's been some issues on the ps3 side of things. honestly im ok with that right now so i can focus on the the single player game).

I'm really itching to get home after work and dive back in.

[paulsby]

127. i'm replaying World at War

the first one on my PC. love it.

my favorite FPS is crysis. excellent mods for it on gamespot. one reason i prefer PC to consoles is the malleability through mods and the more open ended programming environment.

i just replayed the original Doom, but using the Doom III graphics engine. brought me back.

anyway, i will probably get this game for christmas. i'll make sure there are no kids in the room when i play the airport level.

[negativenihil]

35. Also

this would also fall under "bad parenting" if a parent would purchase such a title for a younger player. There are many layers to this issue.

[ikri]

19. The game has a mature rating

As such it is not suitable for children, parents shouldn't be buying this game for kids.

It isn't meant for children, this may surprise you but the biggest buyers and players of computer games are in their 20's & 30's - they aren't kids.

You don't think this game is appropriate for children, that's fine, it was never supposed to be.

[Codeine]

22. Videogames aren't really for kids anymore.

Adult men play and buy far more games than kids do.

[vadawg]

88. didnt we go through this not long ago about the new resident evil game being racist

as its set in africa, seems that people want all games to be of the same benignness (id thats a word) as manic miner, or jet set willie....

[TCJ70]

123. The faux outrage over RE:5 made me wonder...

...about how shallow some people's thinking processes are. A game set in Africa, that is part of a series historically about altered humans, has black people in it? And you have to kill them? RACISM!!!

[ZombieHorde]

27. The game looks fun. I liked the shield + grenade tactic the player was using.

Am I making too much out of this? Is it really just a game?

I think you are making too much of this. Football is more significantly more dangerous than video games, yet we celebrate kids who play football and outlaw selling these games to kids.

On a side note, I am surprised people are not freaked out over Fallout 3. F3 is way more violent and disturbing. You can kill innocent people and eat them. You can hack off people's body parts and rearrange them into funny positions. One mission involves gaining a child's trust so you can lure him away from his protectors in order to sell the child into slavery.

[proteus_lives]

29. It's just a game.

Don't stress and don't feel guilty for having fun.

Millions play these games without re-acting them in real life.

[Political Heretic]

32. Kids, sure. But as an adult, I'm quite capable of using my own judgement.

I am a social worker and human rights advocate, and I also enjoy shooting computer generated avatars in the head with my computer generated gun. :)

As a responsible adult, I can separate fantasy from reality.

The game is rated M. That means its for adults.

I think the real topic for discussion should be whether you think the rating system effectively protects kids from adult content. The answer may be no, but the solution is not banning and censoring things in a free society. As an adult, I'm extremely protective of my right to access the content I choose.

[trumad]

33. I bought it for my 16 year old yesterday

and by my count he killed at least 150 civilians in the airport.

He woke up this morning with this mad stare and glazed eyes and asked if I would take him to the airport.

Damn Video games.... fuck now I'm worried sick.

[paulsby]

128. threadwinner nt

[Odin2005]

39. It's a game. People know the difference between fantasy and reality.

This is just another excuse for the pro-censorship creeps to have a fit.

[trumad]

42. I gotta tell you

it's the best video game ever...... All my gamer friends are raving about it...it's brilliant...the graphics are out of this world... amazing amazing game.

[Posteritatis]

46. They screwed multiplayer though. (nt)

[ZombieHorde]

49. How so? I am a fan of on-line shooters, but I have not played this one. nt

[Posteritatis]

52. Compared to MW1 they basically eliminated any control over multi matches

No dedicated servers, therefore no mods, no custom maps, no clan servers, restricted match size, huge lag advantages to the host, etc.

My favorite Modern Warfare server is modded all to hell, boasts gigantic maps and matches, and is very well managed by its hosts; none of those are options under this one.

[ZombieHorde]

56. Wow, big differences. nt

[trumad]

55. Co-Op is just the same...

They never had live multi-player.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

43. Have you considered the fact that...

The sequence in question is supposed to make you sick to your stomach?

That, in fact, it's probably the most visceral way to teach people the real horrors of terrorism on both sides of the equation?

[RyboSlybo]

61. Yes I have... and they really did a good job!

I really enjoy the game! Did not enjoy that one level...

I just don't want my kids playing it...

[tabasco]

48. Video games are for lazy losers with too much time on their hands,

living in a fantasy land of blowing other people away. Sick.

[Codeine]

58. Posting on message boards is for lazy, opinionated losers

with too much time on their hands and an inflated sense of self-importance.

[tabasco]

64. I don't do it for hours on end.

Gamers sit for days and days on their idiot boxes.

[negativenihil]

66. Hi, i'm a gamer

And i have held down a steady job since age 16. I go to work every day, on time and do my job to the best of my ability.

Kindly stuff your broad strokes up your ass. Thanks! :D

[gatorboy]

71. Come to think of it, I've had a steady job ever since I was 14...

And I'm 37!

Damn you, video games for making me an over-achiever!

[Codeine]

68. You spend even more time on your high horse.

At least they seem happy.

[keroro gunsou]

81. well, as i said before

i WORK in the video game industry, so I've got an excuse to be gaming for days: i get PAID to.

again. piss off, you douchenozzle.

[tabasco]

84. LOL, well as long as you're getting paid, it must be okay.

Does your company supply the cheetohs?

[keroro gunsou]

85. as a matter of fact

no. i don't like cheetos.

if ignorance is bliss, you are obviously the happiest person alive.

moron.

[Odin2005]

59. Fuck you, too, you anti-fun Puritan.

[tabasco]

62. Here's a link for you if you like to blow people away:

www.goarmy.com

Ask for "eleven bravo."

[Odin2005]

67. I prefer to play strategy games and annihilate whole civilizations, thank you very much.

First-person shooters are not my thing.

[Forkboy]

75. heh...same here.

I don't mind shooters, but they get boring before long. Give this grognard a good strategy wargame any day.

[Odin2005]

97. Civilization 4 for teh WIN!!!

:D

[Forkboy]

99. I got to try some of the mods for that.

I've just been playing the regular game, but I noticed some cool mods floating around.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

116. Try Rise of Mankind 2

You'll never bother with vanilla again.

[Forkboy]

118. That was one of the ones that caught my eye.

I'll have to give it go.

[Forkboy]

100. I got to try some of the mods for that.

I've just been playing the regular game, but I noticed some cool mods floating around.

[Sirveri]

136. Hearts of Iron for the win.

Heck any pdox game, but EU3:IN is truly amazing.

[Posteritatis]

137. I like following the Let's Play alt-histories that people spin out of that

There's this mindbogglingly fantastic one over on Something Awful where one player started with Crusader Kings, played through, spent a few months modeling EU to match the ending situation as close as possible, and repeated the process for Victoria and HoI2. He's halfway through that one now, and there's this nearly unrecognizable worldmap, politics, borders, etc., but it all makes perfect sense historically. It's incredible.

[keroro gunsou]

82. agreed

FPS are for little boys who want to make their virtual bones with halo head shots.

real men blow away whole civilizations.

and on that note: i cannot wait for starcraft 2 :evilgrin:

[Posteritatis]

103. Bah, the hardcore play Dwarf Fortress

You wanna talk about some evil gamers? Some of the stuff those guys pull off.. bahahaha.

[Forkboy]

120. OMG, hardest game ever!

You need a Masters Degree just to get by the rules lol. It has more key commands than a shuttle launch.

[Posteritatis]

121. LOL! That's as good a description as any

The player community's fantastic though. Some of the things they come up with are ridiculous, like the guys who designed their fortress to also be a mechanical computer or the like. It attracts a certain kind of unbalanced person.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

111. Or build a SIMCity and unleash an alien attack

Or replay famous wars with more casualties.

[paulsby]

129. here's a tip

one of the most undersung yet incredible games i have ever played: battle zone

and no, not the arcade version with the vector graphics.

this came out at least 5 yrs ago, but it is just VERY well done. it's just an awesome game if you like strategy melded with action. i can't gush about it enough

[Occulus]

72. That's actually amusing, given the US Army-produced game "America's Army" n/t

[tabasco]

76. Yes, it's a recruiting tool.

Go sign your ass up, Rambo.

[Occulus]

86. Actually, I prefer to manage a city at the moment

Did you know, SimCity is used in some urban planning and management courses? Also, Lionhead's "The Movies" is used by some film studios to help visualize storyboards.

Shooters are just a subgenre, and a natural appendage of the industry as a whole. Some of them- like EA's "Dead Space" or 2K Games' "Bioshock"- also tell an interesting story into the bargain. I don't need your permission to enjoy a FPS once in a while, and I certainly don't need your approval of the ways I choose to entertain myself or my friends.

You sound exactly like Mr. Benchley, and I think he got himself banned for this exact behavior.

[paulsby]

132. and MS Flight Simulator

iirc was used by the 911 guys to help them learn how to fly a plane.

my buddy from college is a commercial pilot now (which blows my mind. this is the guy i used to go to surf team parties with, now he pilots a friggin' DC-10 with hundreds of passengers relying on him), and said that it IS very realistic, especially the IFR stuff.

[vadawg]

90. unfortunately the goarmy game isnt as good as the other games on the market

personally im a big resident evil fan, scarey shit....

[Forkboy]

60. Nice post, Lieberman.

:rofl:

[tabasco]

65. Looks like the truth hurts.

Really riled up the couch potatos.

[Forkboy]

69. Looks like I riled up the dumb hypocrites.

Unless you're jogging as you post and not sitting at your computer. :hi:

[tabasco]

77. LOL!

I'm posting one-handed while rowing on a rowing machine with just one hand.


:hi:

[Saboburns]

107. Wow, you are sooooo manly!!

Just how studly are you anyways??

On a scale of 1 to 10

[keroro gunsou]

80. as a long time gamer

and someone who works in the industry: piss off douchenozzle.

don't like games, don't play them. i'll be damned if i let a close-minded, ignorant, mouth breather take away my right to play whatever the fuck game i want.

about the rating system: it was put in place to help lazy parents do their fucking job and keep games they don't want their mewling spawn to play out of said mewling spawn's hands.

yes, this issue really gets on my nerves.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

93. So are all people who have hobbies lazy losers?

Or just hobbies that you don't participate in? Not surfing the web and posting on message boards, for instance.

[Posteritatis]

106. I, too, am interested in this list of permitted hobbies. (nt)

[arcadian]

54. BFD - it's only fake Russians you are mowing down.

They aren't fake Americans for goodness sakes, then we would have a real problem.

[Arkana]

57. Mr. Thompson, don't you have better things to do than rage about video games?

Like getting your law license back?

[RyboSlybo]

63. How about a game where we fly airplanes into skyscrapers?

Does that sound like a good time?

Question is does there ever come a point where a game is crossing a line?

[Codeine]

70. Are you kidding?

I've been flying Microsoft Flight Simulator planes into buildings - both deliberately and through sheer incompetence - since 1982.

[vadawg]

83. rofl, yeah i think that was the point of the simulator from the start..

flying from point a to point b was never my thing...

[CRF450]

74. You sound just like my rethug aunt....

Who goes on and on about how the games I play are gonna make me go out shoot a mall up one day, even the heavy rock music I listen to might do it. I'm pretty sure most of us growing up are taught well to tell reality from fantasy.

[Lucian]

79. Anyone who says violent video games can cause kids to go violent are idiots.

I've been playing violent video games since I was 10 and I NEVER had any desire to mimic what I saw in the games. Only a person who is already disturbed would want to act out what they saw in the game. People tend to forget that video games are NOT REAL, and besides, there's a reason that game is rated M for mature, because it's only for those who are 18 and over.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

87. Holy Shit That's Right It's Out! Can't Wait To Fuckin Get This Now!

That mission sounds awesome!

(reality check... It's just a game...)

[spoony]

89. Interesting the flack you're taking

I guess if you don't worship violence in all its forms you're a freeper puritan fun-governer. Video games like this are just another way for a bloodthirsty, but ultimately cowardly, society to get its rocks off.

And of course it all impacts kids, and adults for that matter. How many times can you be told that human life is only worth what entertainment is gained by snuffing it out before you believe it? We live in a country where Shock and Awe was marketed by cable news as must-see TV, like it was a fireworks show. Murder is a spectator sport now, in fantasy and reality.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

96. I think prudery should be tightly controlled by the government.

It can lead to similar but more extremely forms, such as child brides and abortion clinic bombings.

[spoony]

108. Another substantial contribution

to DU dialogue. Surely there's some think-tank somewhere missing you?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

110. It's only a matter of time.

Let's not pretend that we all don't know it really happens.

[Forkboy]

98. "Murder is a spectator sport now, in fantasy and reality. "

You mean like the Christians and the lions? That kind of "now"?

Those durn video games. If it wasn't for them we'd all be hugging one another right now.

[vadawg]

101. rofl, i dont think the poster ever watches TV either in case of a murder on it

and action movies are a big no no...

[spoony]

105. You don't see a tiny difference

between, say, a murder in a detective show and taking the controls to gun people down? That some things include violence, and some glorify it and tell you to indulge in it as recreation?

[vadawg]

109. yup its recreation, nothing like sitting down to kill zombies etc etc after a hard days work

or liberating europe after a taxing meal with the in laws, you do realise that these are just games, or should we only be able to play games that involve flower pasting or feeding of virtual goldfish....

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

112. There's a tiny difference. An insubstantial difference.

You're splitting hairs. You want to violent entertainment that you enjoy to be morally superior to the violent entertainment that other people enjoy.

You think you're holier than thou.

But you ain't.

[spoony]

104. So it's either all or nothing?

If virtual violence isn't solely responsible for real violence it plays no part at all, ever?

And what's with the super-kneejerk reactionary defensiveness to even suggesting that recreational violence isn't good for people? Reminds me of smokers' reactions in threads about second hand smoke.

[Forkboy]

117. No, there's a middle ground. It's called not playing them if you don't like them.

If virtual violence isn't solely responsible for real violence it plays no part at all, ever?

The only studies I've seen that made that connection are from people who actively work to censor video games. While it may effect someone who already has issues, so can anything else. Since banning all violence in games, movies, tv and music isn't going to happen (and shouldn't), the option you have is to not play them or not let your children play them. That's your choice. Mine is to play them, and so far, at 42 (in a week), I haven't killed anyone.

And what's with the super-kneejerk reactionary defensiveness to even suggesting that recreational violence isn't good for people?

Because games are a scapegoat, just like movies are, and comic books were, whenever anything violent happens involving someone who plays them, as if there aren't a host of other issues involved in the decision to commit violence, or as if there isn't a history of issues before the game was even played. It's a cop out by people too lazy, afraid or unintelligent to look deeper at the issues of what causes violence. Things like poverty, class, race, bullying, mental issues...all of which are so big that people can barely even wrap their heads around them, so they use games or movies or comics as a scapegoat instead so they can hurry up and get on with their day without exerting any real mental energy.

[paulsby]

131. listen to the people criticizing UFC for example

iirc, it was mccain who referred to it as "human cockfighting".

pissed me off

[Odin2005]

102. I'd rather people take their frustrations out with games than with killing people

And people, even kids, know the difference between fantasy and reality.

[nadinbrzezinski]

92. Yes, it is called desentization and for god sakes I write games

By the way this parallels military training to the nth degree.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

94. Sounds like fun.

Are they going to have a expansion pack with a DMV level and a Chuck E. Cheese level?

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

113. I'm not for censoring video games

But the fact that during a period where I played GTA: Vice City heavily, I had to stop myself from driving on the sidewalk to get around traffic in real life scared me deeply. I'm serious.

[vadawg]

114. rofl, i see the resident evil games as training for when the H1N1 vaccine turns us

all into the undead, so i say play it every day, in all conditions of sobriety, just leave a light on...

[gatorboy]

115. I had the exact same reaction with Crazy Taxi.

After playing marathons of the game, I'd find when I ventured back out on to the real road, I was looking for the quickest shortcuts around traffic, always eyeballing for a good sized sidewalk!

[Danger Mouse]

119. I'm a lifelong gamer. Love all kinds of games. This seems wrong to me, though.

I'm not going to say adults shouldn't play it, but kids definitely shouldn't.
It does beg a question though...how far would a game have to go for it to be TOO far?

[Occulus]

122. I watched the whole sequence earlier

This is a really hard mission to swallow, but not in the way most people here are claiming.

The mission puts you, a "good guy", standing by the side of some really, really bad people to infiltrate their organization. The slaughter in the mission- and a slaughter is the only thing it can possibly be called- is intended to get the bad guys to accept you into their organization. This is a very, very dirty intelligence op, and I don't think anyone who plays it ends up being particularly happy about what they did- especially given the mission's ending, which I won't spoil here.

The thing is, this entire sequence could easily be part of an action thriller film. It's horrifying and brutal, but in the context of the overall story, it does in fact have a place. As far as I can determine, the actions your character takes in this scene, while certainly barbaric, are actually necessary in the context of the story.

As to how far a story can go, that's up to the author. Even Les Miserables is brutal in some places.

[paulsby]

130. as is shakespeare and the bible

lots of killing in both.

and sex

[slutticus]

124. "It will cost you a piece of yourself..."

I'm gonna have to pick this up tomorrow.

[JesterCS]

125. I stood in line at midnight

with the rest of the gamers lol

Its a fun game. Yeah the airport mission was a bit meh, but the overall context leading into events in the game makes sense.

The multi player is really nice, but its too short for me. They took out dedicated servers. now you just do matching like Left 4 Dead

[paulsby]

126. where is tipper gore?

does she know about this?

[Kurska]

133. They CARDED me when I bought this game for a friend, I have a full beard.

Gamestop atleast is serious about keeping M rated games out of the hands of kids, this isn't a kids games it is rated M for a reason.

[NuttyFluffers]

134. he missed a few, and was sloppy. could have been a better run.

oh, and i also feel that the moral conundrum for me is that they copped out and allowed the players to bypass this moral carnage and leave it in a nice contained package. that leaves the event as almost innocuous; the carnage is just for pleasure since it's avoidable and you don't get to truly savor/suffer the moral consequences of it. the ramifications should have been graphic: sniping of CIA agents around the world from Russian retaliation, intelligence finding coalitions among other terrorist cells after this coup, and the rapid buildup to war between USA and Russia. then your game has to live with consequences, which is far more enriching experience, i think.

fiction has always been the purview of the deeply disturbing. the mind can be a truly sick, dark place. but it's better to have it writ large on a page, song, film, or game than in real life. the reason i never fear fiction in an absolute sense is because it is mental play -- and play is where we learn about ourselves and the consequences of actions without truly suffering them upon the world. can it push the deranged mind? well, shit, anything can push the deranged mind. the problem is letting play and art explore things in a manner without values or consequences AND let it leak into our world. questions like Interview w/ a Vampire where a woman is murdered onstage as part of the play, or Ender's Game where xenocide is committed in the form of a video game, shows examples of play/art leaking into the world without real consideration and debate on values or consequences. however, even though the game let's the moral dialogue shamelessly glide over things, it poses no threat for it is contained within the game itself (it's not a simulator of a drone actually doing such things in real life).

[WilmywoodNCparalegal]

135. Here's something to scare y'all with...

I'm 37, I have a full-time job, I'm college educated, I'm sane, I don't kill people, I hate guns... Last night, I was playing CoD-Modern Warfare 2

Oh, and I'm a woman.

My boyfriend was off, bought two copies (we each have our own Xbox) and we were playing multi-player in a matter of minutes. We both love first person shooters and we play together all the time.

Now, at the beginning of the game there is a disclaimer that one of the missions could be disturbing and you are given the option to opt out of it, without harming your score or ranking.

I make it no secret that I'd rather play video games all day than go shopping or other supposedly more feminine activities.

On the topic at hand, this is certainly a game for adults. If a parent buys this for a kid, that parent is at fault, not the game.

[TwilightGardener]

139. My older son bought this last night. Pretty sure he knows it's just a game.

Not worried.