Considering these two topical O.P.s

[Uncle Joe]

"Bush At Fault For Ft. Hood Shootings"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x495288

"D.C. sniper John Allen Muhammad executed."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4141798

Do you believe there is a common psychological dynamic between the desire for the death penalty and Bush's "heroic" popularity after 9/11?

[anonymous171]

1. Bush's heroic popularity was due to the rally effect.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rally_Round_the_Flag_Syndrome

Peoples' support of the death penalty comes from their desire for murder/revenge. I personally do not see much of a connection between the two .

[Uncle Joe]

2. Wouldn't a rally affect against a great villain also be based on revenge? n/t

[BoneDaddy]

3. That is interesting

my support for the death penalty is to preserve the rights of the group over the rights of an individual who I believe have abdicated their "right" to live due to their actions. It is done not with glee but with the same necessity as it would be correct to put down an animal that has "gone bad".

We wouldn't think of killing a dog who attacked people and in most cases we think it humane to do so, yet we defend people who have consciously killed others. REvenge is not the motive, necessity is.

[spanone]

4. i don't equate people with dogs. revenge is often the motive.

[BoneDaddy]

10. And what if revenge

was the motive. If someone messed with my family or friends, revenge is justified. Actually I wouldn't want the state to do it. I would.

[Uncle Joe]

6. That's ironic because my opposition to the death penalty is to preserve

the rights of the group over the rights of the individual.

You, a friend or family member could be executed by the state either by mistake or corruption of the process and this possibility is always there so as the death penalty is legal.

I see individual right for revenge as driving motivation for the death penalty.

[BoneDaddy]

9. Yes, that is true

and had been one of my biggest criticisms with the DP. The fact that poor and people of color were most likely executed as innocents always drove my opposition to the DP. But as science has evolved and equality of justice growing, I have changed my view. Leaving people like the BTK killer and other serial killers alive places everyone else at risk if they escape. I do not believe people like this are able be rehabbed and killing them is one way to ensure they never do it again.

I am not talking about the case where there was bias and the wrong person was arrested, jailed and killed via DP. I am talking about the small percentage of serial offenders who consciously destroyed individual lives and families. For that they deserve death.

[Uncle Joe]

11. The problem is, with the death penalty you can't have one without the other.

The heinous cold blooded murderers easily deserving society's contempt and the innocent ones caught up by circumstance; whether accident or design in to a nightmare scenario of facing execution by the state for a crime, they didn't commit.

No matter how much technology advances; humans will always be fallible, it wasn't that long ago when Illinois's Governor put a hold on capital punishment because of this.

Aside from fallibility, is the issue of corruption by potential political leaders. Maybe some future Cheney/Bush type political leaders and/or their appointed minions would be above executing innocent people but I wouldn't want to wager American Lives on that assumption.

Regarding risk of escape, I believe when they were discussing closing down GITMO, it was disclosed that no one has ever escaped from a maximum security lock-down type facility. But if the worst happened and a murderer did escape and kill somebody at least the murderer would be the only one guilty of murder; and as bad as that is, that would be a micro tragedy compared to the collective macro murder committed by a state, when it executes an innocent person.

[BoneDaddy]

12. Again

I am talking about beyond a shadow of a doubt situations. Jeffrey Dahmer for instance. There was no room for error. He had a head in his fridge.

As long as there is doubt and the defendant is still professing innocence then I am fine with imprisonment, but for those clear cut situations, such as this one, I can support the DP.

[Uncle Joe]

13. "Beyond a shadow of a doubt" is subjective to a jury and if the process

is corrupted or human fallibility occurs; as it ultimately will, "beyond a shadow of a doubt" becomes meaningless words, that leaves open a window for abuse or error.

When society is angered because of a particular heinous crime, the emotions of fear and hatred can overcome reason and drive the lust for vengeance, this takes us back to my O.P. Saddam Hussein had nothing to do with 9/11 but that was the continual drumbeat by both the nation's highest political "leadership" at the time and our "fourth estate" free press, guardian watchdogs, for democracy in spite of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. How many innocent people have lost their lives as a result from that corruption of the truth?

The interesting thing about Jeffrey Dahmer is, if there was ever a case for criminal insanity; he was it, the man lived with and ate corpses. Had he been wealthy, he would have been isolated and locked away in an insane asylum instead he was placed in a conventional prison and left alone with a large black man in a bathroom. As most of Dahmer's victims were African American the end result from that kind of action seems all too predictable; for those people; who don't know, he was beaten to death with a mop stick.

My point being; the justice system, nor our society in general is no where near being equal, your life depends on your income and to my way of thinking this makes the stakes too great for a civilized nation to allow the death penalty as the ultimate punishment.

Prison without the possibility of parole should be our most severe corporal punishment, at least that would allow an innocent person; wrongfully convicted to have the possibilty of eventually being exonerated; and living to enjoy it.

[BoneDaddy]

14. I understand your points

but still believe differently in some cases.

[Uncle Joe]

15. That's cool, everybody has to draw their own conscious lines somewhere.

Peace to you, BoneDaddy.

[BoneDaddy]

16. absolutely

and the same to you.

[Laelth]

5. Absolutely. Both are responses of people principally motivated by FEAR.

I am an anger creature, not a fear creature.

To understand, go here: www.enneagraminstitute.com

:dem:

-Laelth

[Uncle Joe]

7. Fasinating, thanks for the link, Laelth.

:thumbsup:

[Laelth]

8. My pleasure. n/t

:dem:

-Laelth