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Bourgeois Underground - Why Class Matters PART 2

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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 01:59 PM
Original message
Bourgeois Underground - Why Class Matters PART 2
Edited on Wed Nov-11-09 02:06 PM by Political Heretic
Today I'd like to focus more deeply on context and specifics behind the generalizations, why it matters, what I desire to accomplish with posting on issues of class and how class shapes DU.

I wrote much of this before my OP which can be found http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6982965&mesg_id=6982965">here. But other things here come in response to the previous thread.

To restate the main assertion at issue: I believe Democratic Underground is maintained and managed predominantly by white upper middle class people, and populated in large numbers with white upper middle class members. I want to talk about some potential effects of that make-up.

If you're willing to consider this with me, let's move away from worrying about whether or not its 90% or 60% or 49% - the influence of privileged thinking over DU has grown over the years and is now pervasive. There is also the backlash to that growing sense of detachment from solidarity with the poor and working class, as evidenced by the 36 recommendations for the previous thread on this topic, despite nearly two hundred posts of insults and attacks against person rather than the argument.

Class is a State of Mind
When we think about class, and the conflict between class divides, its important to understand context. Just because someone is middle class, or upper middle class, or wealthy does not make them bad people. And just because someone is working class or poor does not make them good people. Thus, being someone that aligns lifestyle, beliefs and actions with rulers rather than workers is possible for anyone of any socio-economic status....

But its an easier trap to fall into the more privilege and comforts you have. This reality must also not be ignored.

It is hard to deny that there is a great temptation among the upper middle class to identify in actions and opinions with the rulers rather than the people. And its impossible to deny that ruling interests often rely on the upper middle class to function in roles of supervision, management, oversight, etc. to sever as a buffer between power and those whose lives are being marginalized for the benefit of those with power.

We should be honest about the fact that upper middle class persons face a special sort of challenge, and lots of pressures to be servants of privilege rather than partners in justice with ordinary people. It is easy to loose touch with the realities of the working class and poor. Privilege can breed complacency. It takes conscious effort to resist those forces.

Class and DU
Its very necessary to point out the class component that goes into DU's modern trend away from a place that reflects and views and interests of the working class and poor, and toward a place that reflects the views of the powerful and privileged.

It's different than some conservative place. Where some conservative place might completely cheer corporations, the insurance industry, etc. DUers unwittingly siding with power instead of with the people still speak form one side of their mouth against corporate exploitation of people. So we still see posts about the excess of Wall Street, or corporations run amok. But the same people speaking critically about corporate exploitation also reflect a timidity and unwillingness to stand in solidarity with the poor.

I believe the trend at DU today is that DUers criticize power and corruption, but only to a point. I know people mock the term bourgeois, and I know that it is dated, and easily ridiculed. But for the life of me I don't know what else to call the mindset that speaks of "change" but only ever supports "change" within the confines of what the elite consensus of the powerful allows.

Let's look at how the trend of DU today is to support and reinforce what the powerful and privileged interests in American politics and economics deem "allowable:"

  • Economics Trade and Globalization - The elite consensus on these issues is solidly to the right of public opinion. This is especially the case on the issues of trade and globalization. Support for supposed free markets, free trade and globalization are almost universal and unquestioned within elite circles. Here at DU, there is growing strong advocacy for economic neo-liberalism and ridicule of most criticism of free markets or capitalism, despite its server disservice to the power and exploitation of the working class.

  • Foreign Policy - elite consensus on this issue is center to right, discussion are allowed on the mechanics of running the empire and the management of the military industrial complex, but never regarding the reality of its existence, its necessity or usefulness to most Americans.

  • Social Issues - Elite consensus on the issues of race, sex and role of faith in public life are to the left of public opinion, the only area in which this is the case. Elite opinion is overwhelmingly secular, pro-choice, supportive of gay rights and hostile to overt displays of racism. Thus when people at DU speak rhetorically about woman's rights, or marriage equality they can "feel" as though they stand in solidary with the people without actually having to take a stand - because the financial elite who are the power in this country don't care about these issues and don't oppose people who do.

And yet, when the rubber really meets the road, and standing in solidarity with people would require true courage and go against the political party establishment, then we see why the word bourgeois still has to be used. It is a bourgeois mindset to treat women, minorities and gays as second class exploitable citizens all to maintain the status quo. The status quo is the back and forth of power between two parties, both of which bow to the interests of the financial elite. One party does so as part of that elite. The other party does so as an elite enabler, with its roots and history in solidarity with the people, but its current power and interests in capitulation to the will of the rulers.

I understand those last few sentences cause anger. But, please hear me out. Just think for a second:

I hear the arguments that the Democratic party tries to do more for real people than the Republican party tries to do. And that's true. But the point I want to emphasis is that the "bourgeois" attitude of supporting and reinforcing the status quo means that the establishment Democrats nearly always prioritizes the needs and interests of the elite over the needs and interests of working people and the poor.

Thus the health care bill being proposed, for example, is a massive billion dollar give away to insurance industries, giving them nearly every concession they have wanted so far (though they'll still say they don't like it as long as they think there's any chance they could get even more of what they want) How many concessions have Democratic made for ordinary people? That's how, even when passing health care, something technically "historic" its still a hollow victory, because its still deeply entrenched in the status quo.

I believe that same kind of "elite consensus" is at work at DU today. Perspectives at DU include a large amount of post reflecting the narrowness of white privilege, of male privilege, and of straight privilege. But most of all, I think the most serious imediment to DUs potential to function as a voice of the people, standing in solidarity with the poor and working class - that means putting justice and fairness and equality for the poor and working class first ahead of the agenda of the rulers and financial elite - the most serious impediment to that is economic privilege.

That's why class matters.

But to close, I'll give the caveat again: "Class" is a state of mind, not an income amount. But "bourgeois" thinking, the attitude that stands with privilege and enables the exploitation and injustice of the poor and working class - is a much easier trap to fall into the more privilege and comforts you have.

And I believe DU as a whole, has largely fallen into this trap in recent times.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 02:03 PM
Response to Original message
1. Thanks! This commentary is both intelligent and thoughtful.
A rare find, indeed! :-) :thumbsup:
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kaehele Donating Member (77 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 02:28 PM
Response to Original message
2. Rhetoric may also be a state of mind
Why do you weaken an otherwise interesting bit of theoretical by generalizing obnoxiously about info you cannot possibly have? And why are your meaningless generalizations so much superior to anyone else's?

Disappointing.
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #2
10. I have an answer for you...
Edited on Wed Nov-11-09 03:22 PM by Political Heretic
Because, as someone who has been around longer than 55 posts, who lurked long before posting, I can stand with others who have been involved in DU for many years and notice posting trends.

Things like http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6982498">this thread or the sentiments described http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6982965&mesg_id=6983222">here are part of a much larger pattern.

It's not an unfair generalization because I go to great length to qualify the remarks, both stating that its certainly not everyone and also stating that "bourgeois" mindset is not exclusively tied to economic or social status.

I disagree that it shouldn't be suggested that DU increasingly reflects the perspective of privilege and of those who side more frequently with establishment power rather than with people. It is opinion, but the opinion is based on a long standing participation in and reading of these forums.

I do suspect that DU is made up of a large number of upper middle class white persons. But even if the speculation about income and race prove incorrect (and we'll pretty much never know because I wouldn't even trust members to answer the question honestly) - the thesis is unshaken precisely because the "bourgeois" mindset, while frequently found amongst the upper middle class experiencing modest privilege, is a possibility for anyone.

Anyone can align themselves with power rather than people.


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kaehele Donating Member (77 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #10
20. hmmm
Having posted only 55 times does not mark me as having taken leave of my senses. I did actually think on occasion before beginning to enjoy DU. Is it possible simply to disagree with you without being subjected to ad hominem arguments? Bluster does not an argument make.
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. There's nothing ad hominem about the observation
I'm explaining that the opinion is not arrived at from thin air - it comes from years of observation. The opinion could still be wrong, but its not groundless. So given that, its appropriate and acceptable to point out that my perspective is likely different than your perspective. That's not ad hominem - that's important information.
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kaehele Donating Member (77 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. is so
Edited on Wed Nov-11-09 04:57 PM by kaehele
Well, suggesting that anyone who posts 55 or fewer times is incapable of grasping your post is ad hominem as well as a post hoc fallacy. And since I fit absolutely none of the categories into which you try to shove me, perhaps I may be held blameless for finding your generalizations inept and inaccurate.

Gee, I thought it was the right wing who insisted on placing a label on those they feared and disliked.

But I bow to your years of observation. And I appreciate discovering that "years of observation" provide a basis for opinion that is important. That must mean that Jesse Helms was right on target. And GWB and Cheney! and a raft offolk whose view of the world made and makes :puke:

Gotta go make many many posts now so I can feel free to post again sometime.
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. Except that, I didn't suggest that.
Edited on Wed Nov-11-09 05:39 PM by Political Heretic
I didn't say someone making 55 or fewer posts was incapable of "grasping" my post. You said that, in reinterpreting my words.

What I said was that your claim that the generalizations were "obnoxious" was off - that my "generalizations" were based in many years of perception of these forums and its changes - something that you might not be sensitive too having less history.

Once again, no matter how much you try to spin it, its not a personal "attack."

Interestingly, after speaking of logical fallacies, you go on to compare me personally to the right wing, and imply that I simply fear and dislike people. Further commit a guilt-by-association fallacy in bringing up Jesse Helms, GWB and Cheney, all of which are irrelevant to the topic at hand.

PS -- Really? You really went with "is so" for your subject line? :D
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kaehele Donating Member (77 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. went with is so
Yep. I have a sense of humor. I am old as dirt and a grin is ultimately more important to me than tussling with you.

But I did enjoy it. Thanks for sustaining it for a bit.
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #28
32. I'll take that as a, "yes I see that I overreacted and my accusations were inappropriate."
Cheers. :toast:
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kaehele Donating Member (77 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. man, you do want that pound of flesh
Sorry, I don't think my "accusations" were inappropriate" nor did I over-react. I just think you are a good guy who is trying to think things through. Civil disagreement does not necessarily involve capitulation. :toast:
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #35
41. Ok ok, I relent!


:D
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kaehele Donating Member (77 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #41
43. purrrrrr n/t
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #2
36. And from my experience of being poor, I can tell you that "rhetoric" is most often employed
against poor folk by more affluent people.

If you had actual experience of being very poor, you would see this completely differently.

So, now, go ahead and attack. Because that is what affluent people do with poor folk on DU with great regularity.
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. Trust Me... You're Not Attacked Because You're Poor.
Your attitude and manner in which you present things? Yeah, that might be far more accurate of a reason.
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ThomCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #36
40. That is an unfair attack.
Are you really saying that "Nobody poor would agree with what you just said."

I'm poor now, on a fixed income. I've been very poor at several times in my life. I've been homeless at one point. I grew up poor. I think he makes very accurate points.

He is also makes points that are pretty standard and classic in discussions about discrimination and class.

You are the one attacking him, basically calling him a hypocrite for having no experience on the subject he's talking about.

:shrug:
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. Riiiiiight. "Meaningless generalizations" was not an attack.
Got it.

:eyes:

To put it to you very simply.. ... that poster attacked the OP, rather than discussing anything meaningful.

And, showed absolutely NO compassion for those of us who are poor.

And, yes... poor folk can often do exactly the same thing, because they often internalize the ugly attitudes they absorb from the affluent, and fling it back at other poor folk.

What the OP said, while more left-brain than I would like to hear, has a lot of meaning for me, because I LIVE this experience. The cavalier dismissal of it was like a slap in the face to me. And if you can't understand that, then maybe you need to reevaluate your own experience.
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ThomCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #42
44. Oops. My sincere applogies.
I misread and thought you were replying to a different post. I was defending a different post than the one you are really replying to.

:(
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #44
51. Well, that explains it. ^_^
I was surprised at you taking me to task.

Thanks for letting me know.... I really appreciate it.

:pals:
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kaehele Donating Member (77 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #36
45. How are we to hold the country if we do not anticipate?
But you have no idea at all whether I am poor, rich, or somewhere in between. I am not attacking you. Just begging you to think what you are saying.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #45
49. Begging me to think. How patronizing.
Just because I told you I'm very poor, you do the upper crust thing of telling me to think.

Yes, of course... I'm poor because I don't think as well as you do.

You see..... THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT.

Thank you for giving such a clear example.
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kaehele Donating Member (77 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #49
50. this is nonsense
Well, paint yourself into a righteous corner. I wish you well.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #50
52. No, you don't. That's insincere, and you know it.
You see, the OP gave you a lot to help you to understand what some of us go through, so you would then be able to be empathetic.

Instead, you become more hard, and try to "straighten us out". That's what we poor folk get all the time, and not only isn't it helpful, its plain destructive.

You are being given a choice.

You are being given an opportunity to learn what life is like for some of us, and how to reach out in a true progressive way.

I hope you will reevaluate your own mindset.
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Laelth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 02:47 PM
Response to Original message
3. Well said. k&r
Class means a lot more than we are generally aware, and it shapes the thought of people more often than they are willing to admit.

:dem:

-Laelth
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 02:58 PM
Response to Original message
4. Translation: Lots of DUers disagree with me so they must be bad somehow -- I know, "BOURGEOISE" !
Edited on Wed Nov-11-09 03:03 PM by HamdenRice
And your data on DU's economic demographics comes from ...?

DU strikes me as being the middle of the middle economically, with a significant representation of blue collar and poor people.

My impression is the predominant class experience here is economic downward mobility as a result of the Reagan and Bush years.

Sorry people don't go along with every bit of pseudo-Marxist nonsense dredged up from WorldSocialistWebSite or wherever, but often it's because that nonsense is just plain wrong.

That's the most hilarious and consistent rhetorical crutch people throw around here: "If you disagree with me you must be <fill in the blank with loathsome political or economic label>." That's why when I confront that type of poster and they disagree with me, I just write, "If you disagree with me you support the slaughter of innocent baby arctic seals for their fur! Why???"

Just because lots of people disagree with you as a result of real world, political and economic common sense doesn't mean they're part of the bourgeoise upper classes.
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rfranklin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. You use an insult to try to win an argument...
"Sorry people don't go along with every bit of pseudo-Marxist nonsense dredged up from WorldSocialistWebSite or wherever, but often it's because that nonsense is just plain wrong."

Where exactly did the OP err in describing certain tendencies that are evident on DU?

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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. the biggest one is claiming we're predominately upper middle class without a shred of proof.
it's a fact-free opinion piece.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. What insult? Disagreeing is not "insult"
Edited on Wed Nov-11-09 03:19 PM by HamdenRice
There's almost no evidence whatsoever from what gets posted here that DU is upper middle class.

Mostly people post about financial/job/health problems and how the Reagan Bush years screwed them economically.

Because the OPer is basically fabricating a reality out of thin air, it's appropriate to take issue with his entire faulty "class analysis" of DU.

But to engage seriously, here's what I think is going on. Many DUers are a lot older than the OPer and remember the relatively more economically secure 60s and 70s. There was a system in place that could be described, as Galbraith did, as "The New Industrial State" -- a system of big stable businesses, especially in manufacturing, focused on production and stability; big effective, trade unions that bargained with big business for ever increasing wages as a share of ever increasing productivity, and that secured nearly lifetime employment and pensions; and big government that was much more autonomous from business and played the role of arbiter between big business and big government.

I truly believe that there is a lot of nostalgia (perhaps misplaced) for that era, and some faith that the Democratic Party can return us to some semblance or new version of that system. I'm not saying such views are right; I'm saying that's what I infer from what I read here.

That view -- let's call it New Industrial State economic nostalgia -- does not want to smash the system, and is focused on bread and butter issues.

Pseudo-Marxists don't like that. They want everyone to agree with them that the system is doomed, or that the Democratic Party is automatically going to sell us out, or that private corporations have no role to play in an economically secure future. If you don't agree with them on that then you must be bad -- a corporatist, DLC, upper middle class, bourgeoise, whatever. It's a stupid immature word trick and nothing more.

The reason I use the term "pseudo" Marxists, is I spent lots of time with real Marxists in the United Democratic Front of South Africa, and they would die laughing at the analysis that passes for "radical" around here.
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. hey, it took him a lot of time to write that!11!! you elitist you.
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ThomCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 03:18 PM
Response to Original message
9. I mostly agree with your post.
Edited on Wed Nov-11-09 03:36 PM by ThomCat
Yes, I have also said often that this site is run by straight white, upper middle class men and it shows. This site is biased in favor of straight, white, upper middle class men and their interests.

You explain why pretty well.

The only place I really disagree with you in where you say that this site represents an elite opinion because it supports social issues like race, sex, gay rights, pro-choice, etc.

That assumes that those poor people can't be women, or black or LBGT and therefore support these issues too. Within large portions of the poor and lower middle class communities these issues are very strongly supported because we are those communities.

The gay rights movement has been organized historically by very incredibly poor and marginalized people. A very high percentage of very poor LGBT people on public assistance have always been LGBT rights activists in my experience.

The struggle for rights for people with disabilities has also been organized and run almost exclusively by people on fixed incomes. Poor people, every one of them. You didn't mention this among your "elitist" issues, but it is usually included on such lists so I'm mentioning it too. As a gay man, feminist, and a person with a disability, I couldn't neglect to mention it.

Yes, you are right that the privileges of class get internalized, and become part of the rules and systems everywhere. Enforcing many subtle rules and the way those rules are enforced becomes a way of enforcing those privileges. LGBT people have making that argument here for years that there is a very persistent anti-LGBT bias at DU in the way rules are applied. Feminists have said the same thing, that there is a very persistent sexist bias here, built in to the way this place is run and going all the way to the top. You can take that as confirmation of your OP. But people in the positions of power persistently refuse to see their privileges, and refuse to give them up, so the privileges and biases remain despite claims to not have any.

But if you think that supporting LGBT people, or issues of sex and gender, pro-choice issues, race issues, or any of the other things you mention is proof that someone is upper class or has class bias then perhaps you are showing your biases. There is more than just class bias out there. There is bias based on being white, and being male, and being in the position in greater power regardless of the labels and categories.

That is why we generally speak of Majority Privilege generally or generically, because it encompasses whatever way someone is in the position of power over others. You can have Majority privilege and bias in some ways, while being the subject of it in others.
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. I agree with you and must have misstated my opinion on that - let me clarify:
I meant to say that DU can - out of one side of its mouth, say a lot about standing up for women, gays, minorities, etc. as a generalization - but that takes no courage, because the financial elite does not care about these issues.

BUT on the other hand - the real test of conviction would be what one says and does in response to a political party that prioritizes the interests of power over the rights of women, gays, and minorities. So, when some cook introduces an amendment that fundamentally alters women's rights, and treats women - particularly poor women who will be the ones accessing a public plan - as second class citizens, there is a rush on DU to support the bill that the powerful want.

I said that in my OP I thought. So I think the opposite of what you were saying about me. I think that throwing womens, LGBTQ community and ethnic minorities under the bus whenever powerful interests say so is reflective of a "bourgeois" mindset. And I think that upper middle class white males are the most susceptible to aligning themselves to the interests of power.

I think people try to defend themselves and say that they support women, gays, and minorities by making lots of rhetorical statements when they don't matter. But when the rubber meets the road, the "bourgeois" mindset shows, and they are nowhere to be found.

I'm glad I got to clear this up, because I think you though I was saying thigns that would make me a real sexist, homophobe and racist. :) I was attempting to say the opposite.

Thanks for responding so thoughtfully!
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MilesColtrane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #13
66. " So, when some cook introduces an amendment that fundamentally alters women's rights,..."
...and treats women - particularly poor women who will be the ones accessing a public plan - as second class citizens, there is a rush on DU to support the bill"

A bill that eventually gets to the Oval Office almost never resembles what is passed in the chamber of origin.

IF the Senate passes a version of HCR, and IF Stupak is still in it after Conference Committee, and IF there's a rush on DU to support THAT, then you might have an argument.
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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 03:24 PM
Response to Original message
11. Class is not really a state of mind.

Most people labor, a few profit fantastically on the labor of others, those are the two classes, generally speaking. Those who argue the position of the few at this place are not actually of the few(I'm sure there's a couple exceptions) but rather wanna-be's, suckfish, political operatives with too much time on their hands, and the deluded. I guess one could call that a state of mind, or lack of one. They are not of the bourgeoisie, yet they front for the parasites. Borrowing from the union lexicon there is a word these folks, scabs.
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anonymous171 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 03:25 PM
Response to Original message
12. Class is both a state of mind and an income amount
To deny that there is a material component is to deny the inequality of the entire situation. These people have a lot of things, and those things allow to them to maintain their lifestyles and beliefs.
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ThomCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. True, but on a discussion board what you own doesn't matter.
The mindset you have because of your class, and because you own so much stuff, is what you bring with you.

When you are in positions of authority, enforcing rules over another in any way, anywhere, it isn't your stuff that matters but your mindset that matters.

So it is true that class includes all the stuff you have, and the way all that stuff changes your life and makes it so much more comfortable and so different from poorer people. But that isn't directly at hand.
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #12
34. Yes yes! Thank you and other other poster below who corrected my unclear choice of words.
I agree with you, and I didn't intend to imply otherwise with my post, though I understand the confusion - my words not perfectly chosen.
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aikoaiko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 03:43 PM
Response to Original message
15. I disagree -- I think both parties are solidly middle class in numbers and thinking

but the Democratic party acts more in the name of the poor than the Republican party. As such, its perfectly befitting that DemocraticUnderground be middle class.

DU has always been solidly Democratic in nature with some voices to the left and right.

DU hasn't changed -- maybe you have.

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divideandconquer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. My 2 cents is that DU has drifted to the right because the Dems are the ruling party
One major reason is that it makes little sense for the powers that be (Astroturf and those who want to around power) to try to influence the party out of power.
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ThomCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. The democratic party acts more in the intersts of the non-rich.
That is obvious. The I think the democratic party's idea of non-rich is still very upper-middle class and still mostly the investor class. The policies and bills our party has pushed for the past few decades, even when in power, disproportionately seem to benefit middle and upper class people.

No, I do not agree that our party helps poor people. Our party ignores poor people 99% of the time. The best that can be said is that some members of our party fight for the poor and sometimes succeed in including minor provisions for the poor in some bills.

That does, technically, make your post true, but only technically. The fact that people like Dennis Kucinich and a few others keep fighting to help the poor doesn't mean that the party as a whole really tries or wants to help the poor.
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ipaint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. Welfare reform was a direct attack on the poor.
Nafta the working class and unions. De-regulation the lower middle classes and below.

Do any of the proponents of the current HIR bill know what quality of care the 15-20 million poor will be able to access through medicaid, what qualifications need to be met and what needs to be done to ensure that medicaid is up for the influx?

I know all about the subsidies for folks making multiple tens of thousands of dollars.

Poverty policy is approached from a solidly middle upper middle class here. Poverty isn't a symptom of the way we distribute wealth or a necessity which makes the accumulation of wealth in the upper classes possible. Here it is an affliction like cancer or some random disease basically disconnected from the economic system which allows the upper middle class to amass a comfortable amount of wealth and the hoarders at the top to amass the most. The approach is more programs to "help" the poor, not strict regulation to reign in the rich and their corporations. That might negatively affect someone's retirement investments.

Once you confront the fact that wealth needs poverty to survive that is when the poor are blamed for their plight.
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ThomCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. Yes, I agree with absolutely all what you just said.
Especially the part about misdirection regarding the real cause and nature of poverty. So long as it is a personal failing instead of something deliberately created and sustained, people don't need to take responsibility for how much poverty there is, or why, or where, or who.
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ipaint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #24
46. I would also add how poverty benefits them financially and personally.
Look at the draft threads that pop up.

Now more than before we have a fully functioning economic draft. Suggest that the draft should be expanded to all classes and the middle/upper middle class will pull a fit that their child, with the whole world and all it offers before him or her, should put their lives on the line. They directly benefit from a draft that fills it's quota of warm bodies strictly from desperate kids with no other choice out of permanent wage slavery. The creation of a class of poor kids certainly benefits the perpetually comfortable classes.

Threads concerning food stamps and over the controlling food choice freaks that troll them, welfare reform and what a great president clinton was, punishing financial laws to drive a car, draconian work conditions, bully cops with their overused tasers, people caught in the pile up of overdraft charges that cost them a months worth of food or rent for charging a cup of coffee, depriving poor and working women of ins. help for abortions, pictures of people who shop walmart, it goes on and on. It's always all about punishment. Tax them for driving clunkers that hog gas, drinking soda, smoking etc, etc.

My favorite is "how do you afford the internet, then?" followed by a thread about ignorant poor folk always voting against their interests.

I once read violence always flows down the economic ladder and if someone at the bottom gets it in their head to throw it back towards the top the wrath of the middle/upper middle class will descend upon him full force as they protect their coveted position just under their owners.



"There seems to be a vicious cycle at work here, making ours not just an economy but a culture of extreme inequality. Corporate decision makers, and even some two-bit entrepreneurs like my boss at The maids, occupy an economic position miles above that of the underpaid people whose labor they depend on. For reasons that have more to do with class -- and often racial -- prejudice than with actual experience, they tend to fear and distrust the category of people from which they recruit their workers. Hence the perceived need for repressive management and intrusive measures like drug and personality testing."

"Nickel and Dimed" by Barbara Ehrenreich

If you are going to create a class of people to use and abuse you must be able to control them.
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ThomCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #46
53. +1
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #21
26. Absolutely right. Nailed it 100%
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #21
61. and welfare reform was a Republican initiative
not a Democratic one.
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ipaint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #61
64. Well then he needs to stop boasting about it.
Clinton masterfully blurred the two in a recent New York Times opinion column, as did most others on the 10th anniversary of the passage of the Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Reconciliation Act, writing as if getting mothers and their children off the welfare rolls is the same as getting them out of poverty. In the absence of any evidence that poverty is tamed, he celebrates a "bipartisan" victory, which was good for his image but not necessarily for those it claimed to help.

The ex-president gloats over the large decrease in the number of welfare recipients as if he is unaware of the five-year limit and other new restrictions which made it inevitable. Nor does he seem bothered that nobody seems to have thought it important to assess how the families on Aid to Families with Dependent Children fared after they left welfare. The truth is we know very little about the fate of those moved off welfare, 70% of whom are children, because there is no systematic monitoring program, thanks to "welfare reform" severing the federal government's responsibility to help the nation's poor.

The best estimates from the Census Bureau and other data, however, indicate that at least a million welfare recipients have neither jobs nor benefits and have sunk deeper into poverty. For those who found jobs, a great many became mired in minimum-wage jobs -- sometimes more than one -- that barely cover the child-care and other costs they incurred by working outside the home.

Yet, in rather the same way that President Bush likes to follow sentences about Sept. 11 with the words "Saddam Hussein" to imply a connection unsupported by facts, Clinton follows his boasts about welfare "reform" by announcing that "child poverty dropped to 16.2 percent in 2000, the lowest rate since 1979" as if that proves a causal relationship.

But if crushing welfare is such a boon to poor children, the effects should be snowballing the further we get from the bad old days, right? Well, no: The same census data Clinton cites for 2000 also records a 12% increase in childhood poverty over the four subsequent years.

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20060911/truthdig
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #64
67. that's Clinton, not the Democratic Party
there's a huge difference. As I wrote a few days ago

However, HR 3734 passed the House originally with Republicans voting for it by 226-4 and Democrats voting against it by 30-165. In the Senate it passed by 78-21 with all Republicans voting for it and Democrats voting in favor by 24-21.

Welfare reform was part of the Republican Party's 1994 "Contract on America". Unfortunately, poor people and their allies did not vote in sufficient numbers to prevent Republicans from taking over both the House and the Senate. There is some worry that history will repeat itself in 2010.

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ipaint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-12-09 12:08 AM
Response to Reply #67
68. So it's poor people fault for not voting.
I suppose they forced clinton to sign the bill too.

When you have the democratic president promising to end welfare as we know it what the heck where poor people supposed to come out to vote for. And where was the vast democratic middle class or are they the "allies" your referring to. I suppose all those poor single mothers struggling to feed their kids, societies throwaways, could just drop everything, leave the kids and go vote for another rich white party who's leader is promising to end welfare as they know it.

"ONE OF THE loudest--and most bipartisan--rounds of applause during Bill Clinton's 1993 State of the Union address came when he reiterated his promise to "end welfare as we know it." During the campaign, Clinton repeatedly said that welfare benefits should be time-limited, and that, after two years of job training and education, welfare recipients who can work should be required to do so. "We have to end welfare as a way of life," he told Congress and the nation, "and make it a path to independence and dignity."

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0377/is_n111/ai_14152774/
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-12-09 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #68
73. Also his line "the era of big government is over" was a declaration of war on the poor.
Big government wasn't over for corporate welfare, nor was it over for our military. It was to be "over" for poor people who are of course lazy, moochers sucking money out of the pockets of "real" people.
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-12-09 01:09 AM
Response to Reply #73
79. and I, for one, sent him an angry letter after that
asking him "what the heck are you talking about?"

I said in 1992 that it seemed like we had 3 Republicans running for President and I voted 6th party, knowing that that might help re-elect President Bush.
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-12-09 01:06 AM
Response to Reply #68
77. it would have been a different story if not for the massacre of 1994
politicians generally only have your back, when you have theirs. In 1994, it's not about voting for Clinton. It's about voting for a Democrat for Congress (most of which voted against welfare reform) vs. a Republican for Congress.

Clinton, if you may remember, vetoed the bill twice.
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ipaint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-12-09 01:36 AM
Response to Reply #77
81. Well he certainly didn''t have the back of those on welfare.
You don't use a whole class of disadvantaged people as political punching bags claiming they are a main drain on society and then say you voted to destroy them (just like you said you would) because they didn't "have your back".

One look at a bipartisan cheering crowd of predominantly white rich old guys in 1993 giving a standing ovation to declarations of stomping on the poor yet again would have pretty cured me of thinking my vote would change a damn thing.
I would have been right. They were out for blood and they got it.

Clinton ran on the policy and middle class democrats loved him and voted for him because of it.

We are talking about millionaires with all the financial and political power vs. marginalized and beaten up citizens at the bottom of the economic ladder with no power, period. Who do you think is going to win, especially when the middle class can be depended on to support thinly veiled declarations of class warfare wholeheartedly.

I remember. I was horrified.
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-12-09 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #67
72. Yup. Always blame poor people, deflect responsibility away from power and privilege
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-12-09 01:15 AM
Response to Reply #72
80. right, it is better to always blame the Democrats. My bad.
I am blaming the people who elected all those Republicans in 1994, either by voting for them, or by not voting. Unfortunately, voter turnout for poor people is not very good.
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-12-09 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #80
84. Why do you think that is?
That voter turnout for the poor is not very good?
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-12-09 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #84
87. let me take a wild guess
It's the Democratic Party's fault? Because they don't goto the mat for people who don't vote? Because they decided to suck up to the rich people so they'd have some money to respond to the Republican Party's TV attack ads?


Or it could be that they buy into the M$M and Naderite talking point that their vote doesn't matter because there's no real difference between Republicans and Democrats anyway.
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-12-09 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #87
88. I'm asking you, and you haven't answered.
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-12-09 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #88
89. I have answered. The second part.
They believe, just like you and the Naderites here, that voting doesn't matter because the politicians are all the same, just a bunch of liars and corrupt people on the take.
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-12-09 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #89
91. That's why you think poor people don't vote? Any of these other factors ring a bell?
Edited on Thu Nov-12-09 05:11 PM by Political Heretic
It doesn't occur to you that it might have something to do with poor individuals and families being:

- disenfranchised from the polls (being turned away because someone can't show picture ID, even though that is illegal, laws which ban people with felony convictions from ever voting, when there is a connection between crime and poverty, etc)

- working three jobs, facing eviction, fighting to feed families so that there's far less time to being involved in national politics than there is for you?

- unable to access the same level in information on candidates, news, politics as the middle class who has internet access, and cable

- unable to find transportation to polls (this was a huge problem when I lived in Idaho, which has next to no public transportation and large rural poverty)


Any of those things ever occur to you? The more you talk the more you reinforce the characterization of original post. You speak of poverty as though its a disease, and of the poor as though they are "less than."

And of course the fact that these things don't even occur to you in your reasoning of why it might be that poor individuals and families don't turn out to vote says volumes about your own perspective and class status.

PS - contrary to your assumptions I vote. Never said I didn't. That's what you assumed.

As touched on this elsewhere:

I wrote making the case that when you are aligned with people, and particularly poor and working class people, there are sometimes strategic reasons to interact with even this failed system - so there might, on a case by case basis, be strategic reasons to vote for establishment candidates or spend time or energy advocating for a bill that cleared corporate controlled legislature. But only if doing so:

1. has sufficient benefits for the poor
2. has no critical flaws that harm the poor
3. the benefits for the poor sufficiently outweigh any remaining flaws
4. all things being equal, opposing the candidate or bill would be more harmful (to the poor) than helpful.

For example I think health care could have met those criteria, even coming out of this failed system. I was prepared to support an imperfect bill if it met those criteria above. Unfortunately, as things have progressed it looks more and more like this will not be the case. In this sense, thinking like this means that I'm not "pure" enough for some anti-capitalist revolutionaries.


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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-13-09 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #89
95. I see you have no response.
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mullard12ax7 Donating Member (500 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 03:53 PM
Response to Original message
18. DOW 10,000! I made a boatload this year, brag about your wealth too!
The war is over! We all have health care now! Screw women, screw Kucinich, screw Code Pink, screw Cindy Sheehan, screw Chomsky, screw everyone I'm rich and the Obama's got a puppy!

Gee, I have seen any evidence of that, have you? LOL.
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ThomCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Yes, often.
Sometimes it has even been pretty much that blatant too.

Often it is not quite stated that obviously and glaringly. It is there none the less, and many of us see it and often comment on it.
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #19
39. Often?
Would be nice to see that quantified with fact...
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. Um yes, its funny that you should mention the stock market:
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #18
57. And you forget the best: Thanks to the corporate Blue Dogs, the Democratic Party
ELITE rules the Congress.

But guess what geniuses? Not for long if you continue to DESTROY your base.

Pride goeth before the FALL.
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 06:10 PM
Response to Original message
29. Does empathy trump privilege?
That seems to be the way out of the trap.
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ddeclue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 06:11 PM
Response to Original message
30. The 20th Century called.. they want their rhetoric back..
:eyes:
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MSchreader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 06:18 PM
Response to Original message
31. I was pulling for you before, but you lost me
"'Class' is a state of mind"?! You completely destroyed your own position with those six little words.
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. Perhaps the words need corrected then. But how can you deny this:
Anyone can align themselves with power, or align themselves with people. Someone could be poor in terms of income, and yet still align themselves with privilege, yes?

I thought that I made it clear that I was not saying class is only a state of mind.

There's economic class divides without question. But then at the same time, that does not mean that anyone who makes over x dollar amount automatically thinks or acts a certain way, nor anyone who makes under x dollar amount.

I think the tendency and inclination of those with more social-economic status to align themselves with power against (or with insensitivity to) the poor and working class is much greater. But I don't want to make an absolute statement that implies that one's alignment is dictated exclusively by ones income. That would be ridiculous, don't you agree?

That's what I was trying to get at.

I can see how "class is a state of mind" could be interpreted in other very bad ways -- like denying the reality of underprivileged and dominated classes, or denying the realities of class conflict. But that was not my intention.
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MSchreader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #33
54. I'm not a Weberian
It's not about income, power or prestige for me. That's all smokescreen to obscure what does define classes -- relationship to the means of production, and relations to other classes.

Income is never the issue. A CEO that receives $1 in salary -- or no salary, symbolically -- is no less a manager than s/he was when they made $6.7 million. An autoworker with 20 years in and making $45,000 a year is still selling his or her ability to work on the market -- and having only that to sell on the market -- the same way that a new hire making half that amount is. A manager making relatively the same as his or her employees still has more in common with a manager making 10 times as much because they both occupy the same social position and have the same social being.

And in terms of alignments, there is the matter of social being determining consciousness. From the moment each of us is born, we are "tracked" based on our class background (social being). The schools we go to and education we receive, the stores, restaurants and shops we patronize, our friends, our neighbors, our authority figures, etc., are determined by where we stand. And our experiences with each of those elements, in turn, influence and shape how we see the world, how we understand it and, more importantly, what we want and expect from it.

I've learned over the years that there is no such thing as cross-class common interest. Common interests, when you get beyond abstractions, mean different things to different classes. "Democracy" for a worker means something fundamentally different, when you get past the abstract elements, than it does for someone who is a manager or business owner. And not only is there no universal common interests among classes, but the "common interests" on one class generally conflict with the "common interests" of others.

If working people align themselves with "middle class" managers/professionals/officials or with business owners, they are usually doing so over and against their own common interests as workers (and also usually as a result of a lifetime of propaganda being shoved down their throats). And, in my experience, when elements from the "middle class" or owning class go slumming and claim to be aligning themselves with the interests of the working class, it's because they are seeking to profit or otherwise gain some advantage from it. I have never met someone from one of these classes who called me friend and didn't have his or her hand in my pocket.

I know you want to get some of these "middle class" elements to see things from the perspective of the poor and working class. Sadly, that simply cannot happen unless they ditch their current social being and actually join the working class. Barring that, the best they can do is engage in a sappy feel-good adventure that only gets insulting for those of us who are subjected to it. The worst is use us as pawns for their own emotional (and material) gain.

This is why I'm a hardened classist, and make no apologies for it.

I am working class. What they know I can learn ... and what I know they can never learn.
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ipaint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #54
63. Wish you weren't right but you are. n/t
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amborin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-12-09 12:25 AM
Response to Reply #54
75. good post!
guess you don't go for Wright's contradictory class positions!
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 06:45 PM
Response to Original message
37. Yay! More Dribble! All This Effort Just Because Of "Some People Disagree With Me" Complex LOL
Edited on Wed Nov-11-09 06:46 PM by OPERATIONMINDCRIME
I mean, that's really all it comes down to. It comes down to you being rubbed the wrong way because some people here disagreed with your extreme position on something. Really, that's all this is. It's a grandiose display of "DU isn't EXACTLY the way I want it to be and *gasp*, some members disagreed with me on something, so I've gotta now write some filled with dribble thesis on just why those people disagree with me. Yeah, me. Do you believe it? Disagree with me? How dare they! DU is fatally flawed!"...

Really. Thicker skin. The OP is nonsense.
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ecstatic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 07:35 PM
Response to Original message
47. You're right about this site being mostly white... but who is more
likely to have a "Perfection or Nothing" attitude about healthcare reform: a privileged person who already has insurance, or someone who has spent many years uninsured and knows what it's like in the real world?
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #47
60. I'm not sure. I mean that sincerely, I went bankrupt from medical bills and have no insurance....
...and I think the bill coming out of the house will actually to more to harm people in the long run than it will to help people. In other words, if I had to vote for it - I'd probably be up all night wrestling with the decision, but I don't think I would vote for it.

But I don't know if I'm the exception to the general rule or if many other people in my situation (years spent uninsured) would feel the same.
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ipaint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #60
65. They don't seem to like working class and poor women very much.
"None of the bills emerging from the House and Senate require insurers to cover all the elements of a standard gynecological "well visit," leaving essential care such as pelvic exams, domestic violence screening, counseling about sexually transmitted diseases, and, perhaps most startlingly, the provision of birth control off the list of basic benefits all insurers must cover. Nor are these services protected from "cost sharing," which means that, depending on what's in the bill that emerges from the Senate, and, later, the contents of a final bill, women could wind up having to pay for some of these services out of their own pockets. So far, mammograms and Pap tests are covered in every version of the legislation.

Granted, Congress can't--and shouldn't--get into the business of spelling out every possible cause for a trip to the doctor. No one wants the process to collapse under a mountain of requests from special interest groups à la the Clinton mess in 1993. But women, half of all adult patients, are not a special interest group. And since both the House and Senate bills include lists of specific services that must be covered by health insurance companies and be provided without asking patients for additional money, it's hard to understand why all the services provided in a basic well-woman visit to the gynecologist isn't on them along with maternity care, newborn care, pediatric dental and vision services, and substance use disorder services."

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20091116/lerner

No birth control and abortion coverage. Between that and nothing to hold down costs the working class and working poor will pay dearly for those subsidies and premium reductions the upper classes will enjoy.

What else is new. There has been a war on the working classes and the poor for decades. Transfers of power between parties don't seem to matter.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 07:37 PM
Response to Original message
48. I have to agree. nt
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sudopod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 09:12 PM
Response to Original message
55. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Edited on Wed Nov-11-09 09:34 PM by sudopod
You say that we're being oppressed by the wealthy as they crush every last cent from us? They leverage their control of media to pull the wool over their victims' eyes with flashy advertising and carefully applied mimetics? Really! Wow, I never saw that one coming, just like I didn't see the fact that the insurance industry is spending hundreds of millions of dollars to fight the healthcare reform bill indicates that they really like it. Clearly, people who want the healthcare bill to become law are part of the "elite consensus" instead of just not wanting to die of cancer or some stupid shit. They just need to get their thinking right. And you say that lighting families on fire because they live on our oil is wrong? That's a new one on me! You'll have to excuse me for being slow to see the problem. I've just been coming here for the cat pictures.

...

I swear to spaghetti monster that this OP is one of top ten most pretentious internet postings of all time. Yes, we realize that there is something very wrong with this country.

And what the hell is this?


"Social Issues - Elite consensus on the issues of race, sex and role of faith in public life are to the left of public opinion, the only area in which this is the case. Elite opinion is overwhelmingly secular, pro-choice, supportive of gay rights and hostile to overt displays of racism. Thus when people at DU speak rhetorically about woman's rights, or marriage equality they can "feel" as though they stand in solidary with the people without actually having to take a stand - because the financial elite who are the power in this country don't care about these issues and don't oppose people who do."


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
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HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...

Bullshit. You have heard of proposition 8, right? Also, way to throw off on both the Gay AND Civil Rights movements. I mean, if the elites are all for gay marriage and black people driving in Alabama, I wonder who funded all of those "Yes on 1" ads in Maine? Assuming that the rest of the OP is right and the rest of us milquetoast DU liberals who disagree with you on any given issue are rubes being deceived by the man, what's your point with this quote? Am I missing something? Am I just too booshwa to see the truth of the Lavender-Industrial complex?

The only problem with DU that I see is a bit too much patience RE: swinging the banhammer, but if the management, who work their asses off to provide this most excellent forum, doesn't mind, who am I to judge. Could it be that maybe, just maybe, instead of the left being overwhelmed by a mob of class traitors you are over-reacting to a handful of trolls?

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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #55
56. I'd suggest one less cup of coffee ...
before you go forth to polish those jack boots? :crazy:

Simply put because I'm not near as considerate as the OP - it all boils down to LOVE OF AUTHORITY figures. Whether they be democratic or republican ... some boys and girls just want to be on the TEAM so they can bash all outsiders as they cruise on in for the big win.

Good luck with that in 2010 and 2012. This liberal is rethinking a lot ... much of it will depend on the actions of our Democratic Congress between now and then.

Unfortunately, some people who barely have a pot to piss in will vote against their own welfare IF they can have the opportunity to PUSH DOWN another group of humanity.

Kind of takes you back to 1930s Germany. And yeah, it can happen again. :wow:
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sudopod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #56
59. Sure. That's why Republicans rule the poor southern state
that I live in.

Where am I wrong, though? The OP is an insult to a lot of good people.
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-12-09 12:10 AM
Response to Reply #59
70. The OP isn't an insult to anyone unless it hits too close to home.
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sudopod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-12-09 01:09 AM
Response to Reply #70
78. It's an insult for you to say that everyone who doesn't follow your take on events
Edited on Thu Nov-12-09 01:18 AM by sudopod
or who doesn't share your priorities secretly wants to be a corporate overlord. Certainly there's some of that among the American public, especially among the freepers, but to claim that that is what's wrong with DU? Come on. I can probably rattle off the handles of the people you have in mind, who brag about how great stock trading is and how Mexicans and Indians are ruining America and who constantly throw off on the urban poor, and yeah, they're full of crap. They sure as hell aren't representative of DU as a whole, though.


One of the reasons I quit going to church was this sort of "holier than thou" treatment. Congratulations on pursuing an education and helping people for a living, but don't think that puts you in a position pass judgment on whole swaths of other activists just because they don't toe your ideological line or share your priorities. I especially don't understand why you felt the need to throw off on people who work on civil rights issues, as if their work isn't as important or as meaningful as your own.

What the hell, man?


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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-12-09 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #78
86. Interesting, since I never said that.
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sudopod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-12-09 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #86
90. Well
what did you say? Help out a dumb guy on the internets, eh?
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-12-09 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #90
92. A) I'm not a reading coach B) You're obviously not sincere so figure it out on your own.
HINT: you won't be able to use the word "everyone" is trying to describe anything I've said.
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sudopod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-12-09 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #92
93. I guess I'll just go back to "kissing the whip of power"
Edited on Thu Nov-12-09 05:36 PM by sudopod
lol, internet.
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-12-09 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #93
94. If you think that applies to you, then by all means.
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Irreverend IX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #55
62. Think before you guffaw...
Proposition 8 and the other anti-gay laws are red meat for the right-wing base. The elites don't advance those things because they believe in them themselves. Most members of society's elite don't care in the least if someone is gay, nor do they truly believe in the religions they profess. Otherwise, guys like Newt Gingrich and Mark Foley would have been driven out of the GOP long ago. Remember what the Family says: if you're "chosen," it's okay for you to do anything. Those types of people believe in power first and last, and social conservatism is just their tool to rally the base.
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sudopod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-12-09 01:47 AM
Response to Reply #62
82. If it weren't for the right distracting people with
apocalyptic visions of holiday trees, abortion, and gay marriage, the wealthy would have been brought down a peg or two a long time ago. Making advances on those issues in the minds of Americans is integral to breaking the moneyed class's hold on power.

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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-12-09 12:09 AM
Response to Reply #55
69. Elite opinion, refers to our financial owners, who DONT care/oppose civil rights.

You say that we're being oppressed by the wealthy as they crush every last cent from us? They leverage their control of media to pull the wool over their victims' eyes with flashy advertising and carefully applied mimetics?


Actually, no, I didn't say either of those things exactly - especially the latter. That's what you've added into my post.


Wow, I never saw that one coming, just like I didn't see the fact that the insurance industry is spending hundreds of millions of dollars to fight the health-care reform bill indicates that they really like it.


I know that you are smarter than this.

Insurance industries spent millions of dollars "fighting" health reform, to ensure that what finally does emerge form congress has the absolute smallest impact on their profit as possible. There will never be any point where insurance will say that they like any bill - that doesn't change the fact that they have been grated top priority in their demands and concessions across every area in which they have asked for something.

If you ask insurance lobbyists how they feel about the bill, I'm pretty sure they would tell you that they feel they've been very successful in their efforts to guide the process. That seems pretty hard to dispute.


By the way.... who led opposition to Prop 8? The mormon and catholic CHURCH. Not the financial elite or corporate america.

Yes, its true that a criticism could be that when I describe "power" or "rulers" I tend to refer to the wealthy and financial elite who run the country. But I omit discussion about the hierarchy of organized religion and its perverse influence on politics.

Perhaps that an oversight, but I don't feel it invalidates the issues at hand in any way.


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amborin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 09:30 PM
Response to Original message
58. not sure what your agenda is, but your definitions of "class" are off
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-12-09 12:11 AM
Response to Reply #58
71. Care to elaborate?
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amborin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-12-09 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #71
76. not right now
maybe tomorrow
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-12-09 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #76
85. It's tomorrow - do you have the time, or energy now?
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-13-09 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #76
96. So now its the next day? Still no time?
:(
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Desertrose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-12-09 12:24 AM
Response to Original message
74. Excellent and thoughtful post. Thanks.
I have to agree.
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-12-09 10:48 AM
Response to Original message
83. thanks for posting this!
:thumbsup:
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