When excuses are just plain inexcusable

[Violet_Crumble]

I think it's appropriate to post Daniel Pipe's take on the Fort Hood murders here at DU seeing as how I've seen more than a few posts from DUers over the past few days that come across as sounding more like Pipes than the attitudes of left-wingers

When a Muslim in the West for no apparent reason violently attacks non-Muslims, a predictable argument ensues about motives.

The establishment - law enforcement, politicians, the media and the academy - stands on one side of this debate, insisting that some kind of oppression caused Major Nidal Malik Hasan, 39, to kill 13 and wound 38 at Fort Hood last week. It disagrees on the specifics, however, presenting Hasan as the victim alternatively of "racism'', "harassment he had received as a Muslim", ''a sense of not belonging", "pre-traumatic stress disorder", "mental problems", "emotional problems", "an inordinate amount of stress", or being deployed to Afghanistan as his "worst nightmare". Accordingly, a typical newspaper headline reads "Mindset of rogue major a mystery".

Instances of Muslim violence against non-Muslims inspire the victim school to dig up new and imaginative excuses.

Colourful examples include the use of a prescription drug for depression to explain the 1990 assassination of Rabbi Meir Kahane by Arab extremists in the West Bank. Or "road rage" to explain the 1994 killing of a random Jew on the Brooklyn Bridge. There was also the ''loneliness and depression" which supposedly led to the 2004 explosion in Brescia, Italy, outside a McDonald's restaurant. The bomber left a note indicating ''he was acting in the name of Allah for war in Iraq'' yet police accepted his brother's assurances that his mental state was behind the bombing.

<snip>


Everyone finds blaming road rage or depression easier than discussing Islamic doctrines. And so, a prediction: what the military analyst Ralph Peters calls the army's "unforgivable political correctness" will officially ascribe Hasan's assault to his victimisation and will leave jihad unmentioned.

And thus will the army blind itself and not prepare for its next jihadi attack.

http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/society-and-culture/when-excuses-are-just-plain-inexcusable-20091110-i7i9.html

[earcandle]

1. Are you shitting me?

[Violet_Crumble]

2. Me? No, I don't think so....

But if you think I agree with the views of Mr Pipes, I most definately don't. He's a nasty reactionary bigot and I find it a bit sad that I suspect there'd be more than a few DUers who'd agree with him...

[EFerrari]

3. Stanford seems to be overrun by ignorant anti-intellectual bigots

nowadays.

[TicketyBoo]

4. No.

DU seems to be overrun by fatally blind politically correct individuals unable or unwilling to accept the truth when it smacks them in the face.

Daniel Pipes knows what he's talking about.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Pipes

Everyone finds blaming road rage or depression easier than discussing Islamic doctrines. And so, a prediction: what the military analyst Ralph Peters calls the army's "unforgivable political correctness" will officially ascribe Hasan's assault to his victimisation and will leave jihad unmentioned.

And thus will the army blind itself and not prepare for its next jihadi attack.

Yep. Unfortunately, that's very likely.

He handed out copies of the Koran to neighbours just before going on his rampage and yelled "Allahu Akbar", the jihadi's cry, as he fired off over 100 rounds from two pistols.

His superiors reportedly put him on probation for inappropriately proselytising about Islam.

…note what former associates say about him: one, Val Finnell, quotes Hasan saying, "I'm a Muslim first and an American second" and recalls Hasan justifying suicide terrorism; another, retired Colonel Terry Lee, recalls that Hasan "claimed Muslims had the right to rise up and attack Americans"; the third, a psychiatrist who worked very closely with Hasan, described him as "almost belligerent about being Muslim".

To be a progressive doesn't mean you have to blind yourself to the truth. If it looks like an Islamic terrorist and it walks like an Islamic terrorist and it quacks like an Islamic terrorist, well…it doesn't take a genius to figure it out.

Or are we saying there is no such thing as an Islamic terrorist?

If all this man wanted was a way out, there were a dozen different ways to accomplish that without killing 13 unarmed American soldiers. He was killing in the name of Allah, and I don't understand how anyone, knowing the facts, can chalk this up to anything but Islamic extremism. This isn't bigotry; this is the truth. We should be wise enough to know that denying truth in the name of avoiding "bigotry" is, in itself, bigotry.

[EFerrari]

5. No, it doesn't take a genius to twist this incident into "Islamic terrorism".

You got that right.

And no, objecting to bigotry isn't bigotry no matter what Glenn Beck says.

Btw, you don't know the facts yet and when it turns out that this man had a psychotic breakdown, I'm sure at that point you will claim that his clever impersonation of someone in a psychotic break is all part of Osama bin Laden's plan.

[TicketyBoo]

7. No such thing

as an Islamic terrorist, I reckon, then?

Those 15 guys on 9/11 all had a case of mass psychosis. The poor dears.

There are none so blind as they who will not see.

[EFerrari]

12. See? All part of Osama's plan. Thank you for delivering so quickly. n/t

[timtom]

54. So, you like that 15-guys-with-box-cutters story, eh?

(tee hee)

Actually, I believe the count was 19 -- five of whom were still alive after 9/11 and two of whom had died prior to that event.

<edited to add dashes in subject line>

[TicketyBoo]

68. Right.

Nineteen it was.

[TicketyBoo]

11. Also,

the only time I've ever heard anything Glenn Beck has said is when I see a clip of some of his outrageousness on Countdown.

[rucky]

75. Isn't he a PNAC signator?

[artfan]

6. It is entirely possible

that the fort hood shootings were precipitated by the shooters religious beliefs; what concerns me is the rush to judge. Did he actually shout anything? What are the facts not just the hearsay. I remember that when the Oklahoma bombing occurred the early reports were that the bombers were arab. there was a lot of speculation about 'eastern extremists'.

I am also concerned about the idea that islamic persons who talk about their faith are automatically suspect. When my husband was in the Navy and taught at the Great Lakes training center one of his co-workers often used his position as an instructor to 'share' his christian beliefs with students. Repeated complaints about his behavior went ignored even though he would tell anyone who listened that AIDS was an airborne virus that only killed the unrighteous and other extreme views. Over the last few days I have heard/read that muslims should not be allowed to serve in the military if this is policy we need to extend it the encompass all extremists. Nutjobs come in all shapes,sizes and belief systems.

[The Magistrate]

8. Hear Hear, Ma'am!

[TicketyBoo]

9. I don't believe

that Muslims shouldn't be allowed to serve.

However, I think it wouldn't be a bad idea for every military service person, no matter their faith or race, to annually repeat the sworn oath that all military personnel take when they are inducted, so they are reminded of what they promised their God and Country at the outset of their service. I've been thinking a lot about this.

[artfan]

14. I too have been thinking about it

and in my experience the military does their best to discharge questionable persons but because people are so young when the join they often undergo great changes in their beliefs and etc. as they age and gain life experience. To give some sort of 'personality' test at the time of enlistment would in all likelihood cause overconfidence and we would still miss many unstable people.

[EFerrari]

18. That's a good point. The onset of some very serious problems

often doesn't happen until late teens or early twenties.

[EFerrari]

10. This Pipes piece is meant to fan bigotry and to shut down thought

because, as Pipes intimates, if you use your reason to process this event, you are sympathizing with the perpetrator and putting the nation at risk.

[TicketyBoo]

13. This piece

is the truth as Pipes, a scholar on the Middle East and Islam, sees it. I think he's right. I daresay that he knows more about the subject than most of us here know.

Daniel Pipes (born September 9, 1949) is an American academic, author, writer, and political commentator who focuses on the Middle East and Islam.

Pipes has taught history at Harvard, the University of Chicago, and Pepperdine University, served as a member of the board of the U.S. Institute of Peace, and is the founder and director of the Middle East Forum, a think tank, as well as the founder of Campus Watch, an organization which critiques those who it characterises as sources of "poor scholarship" concerning the Middle East.

[The Magistrate]

15. His Problem, Sir, Is Not What He Knows, But What He Knows That Ain't So....

[EFerrari]

16. Don't you think someone who is teaching at Stanford

knows the difference between understanding something and excusing it? Don't you think someone who poses as an academic should be able to make this very basic distinction?

And yet, he collapses that difference in this piece, starting with his dishonest title.

[TicketyBoo]

19. His point is

his past actions have been excused to the point of allowing this to happen, and the powers that be will make the same mistakes over again.

You should be very happy with this, since the political correctness you demand is being adhered to, never mind that it is to the detriment of national security.

[artfan]

22. was he 'excused' because of

the military not wanting to make waves over his faith or because of the intense need for people in his profession?

[EFerrari]

24. What does political correctness have to do with the FBI screwing up

their case? Or with Hasan's superiors neglecting their supervisory duty? Nada. They fucked up. There's no evidence whatsoever that they excused anything. There's all kinds of evidence that they didn't pick up on the instability this man was telegraphing all over the place.

You and this dishonest right wing hack are blaming "political correctness" when instead of making a political argument about the left you should be noticing the flaming incompetence that allowed this man to be dismissed by three different agencies charged with security.

And that's not even taking into account the level of professionalism in the psych unit where he worked. I think that were I bin Laden, I'd put "sleepers" in military psych units because apparently no one ever checks on them despite the fact that trauma is essentially contagious.

[The Magistrate]

27. Which Is Bloody-Minded Nonesense, Sir

And nothing but a right reactionary's attempt to squeeze political points against 'liberals' out of this by employment of a straw-man.

He knows what he is saying is trash; he is banking on many readers being sufficiently bigotted to think, you know, damn it, we need strong manly Republicans back again, when they read this swill....

[EFerrari]

30. Strong manly Republicans who can keep us safe from jihadis

like Louis Freeh, Donald Rumsfeld and Condi Rice.

[TicketyBoo]

32. It makes absolute sense to me.

I don't see how anyone can say that this was anything else. I just don't see how DU'ers can be this blindly politically correct as to not see what happened here. It's ridiculous.

[The Magistrate]

41. Oh, Do, Please, Sir, Charge Me With Political Correctness: Wife Could Use The Laugh

Pipes is describing a fantasy world inhabited by rightists of a certain stripe who are best described as creme-puffs masquerading as hard-rolls. In that world only they are alert to huge malevolencies only they are hard enough to oppose properly, and their opponents are squishy things in sandals who wear their hair like women do, so they look like girls from behind, which confuses the poor dears horribly. It takes a core of fundamental fear, great enough to overpower reason, to live in such a mental world.

Political violence pushed to the point of suicidal murder, whether by direct self-immolation or by commital in circumstances practically guaranteeing arrest, requires one of two things: either careful grooming over time by an authority figure in circumstances of some social isolation, or a degree of mental disturbance for which a received ideology provides a narrative that gives the sufferer a sense of being not maladjusted but exalted, and makes the condition bearable and even welcome. The first sort requires a good deal of organization, and is potentially very dangerous; the second gives rise to 'lone wolves' of varying degrees of competence, but mostly not particularly adept at the work.

A variety of ideologies have served the turn for the latter group. Nineteenth century Anarchism, with its 'propaganda of the deed', depended almost wholly on such types for its more spectacuar outrages in Western Europe, though in Russia, there was real organization and planning behind most incidents. 'White Power' types, and anti-abortion killers, generally arise in the 'lone wolf' style nowadays, though there are loose networks encouraging and sheltering those with the potential. Militant Islam certainly provides a narrative very suitable for this form of escape from mental disturbance, that a number of disturbed individuals latch onto. But such instances are distinct from organized attacks carried out by networks and criminal conspiracy, and in many such instances, were that particular narrative frame-work absent, some other readily available one would be found to serve the turn, because the impulsion to the act comes from within the personality, not from any external source.

The problem with policing such persons is that for every one who actually does cook off into serious violence, there are thousands who show some of the incipient signs. All who display this potential in some degree cannot, as a practical matter, be swept up off the street, whether for incarceration or treatment, it is not possible even to keep close watch on them all. Police effort is, properly, directed mostly at detecting the pug-marks of organized efforts, which, if their plans come to fruition, can do serious harm.

[TicketyBoo]

48. Pipes is describing

what happened and the events leading up to it.

Pipes is a distinguished scholar, specializing in Middle East affairs and Islamic studies.

Oh, Harvard and Stanford are real hotbeds of conservatism, all right. Not.

Why you keep addressing me as "Sir" is more than I can figure.

[The Magistrate]

50. Pipes, Sir, Is A Rightist Shill

Who has been continuously wrong in pronouncements and predictions in what he claims as his area of expertise. You might as well cite Yoo or Adington on Constitutional law. There is a market for people who tell imperial dreamers what they want to hear....

[TicketyBoo]

52. Well, Madame,

I believe in this particular instance, from all the facts we have at the present time, that his assessment of this particular situation is correct.

[The Magistrate]

53. You Have Provided Ample Evidence, Sir, Of What Weight Your Opinion Should Be Rated At On This....

"Happiness can be cured. Contact me for details."

[TicketyBoo]

58. As, Madame,

have you.

[The Magistrate]

62. And The Verdict Of The Audience, Sir, is Awaited With Confidence....

"Can't nobody here play this game?"

[TicketyBoo]

66. NPR is on the story, Madame…

…some of Hasan's supervisors and instructors had told colleagues that they repeatedly bent over backward to support and encourage him, because they didn't have clear evidence that he was unstable, and they worried they might be "discriminating" against Hasan because of his seemingly extremist Islamic beliefs.

[uppityperson]

63. "Why you keep addressing me as "Sir" is more than I can figure."

That is what that poster does. If he/she has it wrong, tell him/her and she/he happily changes to the right sex. Have you ever read or watched "To Kill a Mockingbird", esp the court scene?

[uppityperson]

65. "Why you keep addressing me as "Sir" is more than I can figure."

That is what that poster does, acts as if there was a reason to be respectful to all posters. If he/she has it wrong, tell him/her and she/he happily changes to the right sex. Have you ever read or watched "To Kill a Mockingbird", esp the court scene?

[artfan]

21. the military by its very nature attracts

people who are often unsuited to the job (psychologically) there is something about the idea of 'god,guns and country' that speaks to people who crave order and power. I am NOT saying all people in the military are like this but when my husband was still on active duty we saw firsthand how many people were in the military who were 'troubled'. I am sure some of it is because of the overall youth of those serving as well as the intense pressure they are under (even in peace time) but, spousal abuse, alcoholism , and extremist views are commonplace.


**by extremist views I mean all extremes if you go to any large military base you will see the same sorts of things just outside the gates strip clubs, porn shops, pawn shops, 'easy credit' signs, places selling hot cars, churches, gun shops, etc

[Violet_Crumble]

44. The piece I posted was a piece of bigoted and hateful swill...

Not sure why you think copying and pasting some resume of his is impressive. Campus Watch? You have to be joking. Do you have any idea of the bullshit he and that bunch of morons peddle? Clearly not...

How do you explain that first sentence in the OP where he instantly turns it into Muslim vs non-Muslim? Is he so tied up in his hatred that he actually thinks the man questioned people as to their religious affiliation before he shot at them? Also, how does Pipes know what religion any of the victims were? More importantly, why is their religion so important to him? I'd hazard a guess that it's for the same reason antisemites are so fascinated by who's a Jew and who's not. Then again, given what I've read from you in this thread, you'd more than likely side with those fellow bastions of intolerance, antisemites, and insist that anyone who objects to their bigotry is blinded and ever-so politically correct...

[TicketyBoo]

49. It's absolutely disgusting

that someone gets called a bigot because they are not afraid to look at and accept the truth.

There are no Islamic terrorists. They don't exist. Live in your blind, comfortable world.

Ridiculous.

[The Magistrate]

51. Tell You What, Sir....

How about you enter 'Topic Forums' and come on down to the Israel v. Palestine forum, where you can tell the regulars all about what they do not know....

[Violet_Crumble]

55. Yep, I'm sure antisemites and other bigots would all agree with you on that...

How sad it is that it's only fellow bigots who can see this amazing TrUtH that to everyone else comes across as nothing more than ignorance and intolerance. Rather than bleat away about how no-one appreciates yr TrUtH enough, how about you try and answer the question I asked you about the bigotry in the very first line of Pipe's article?

What's ridiculous is making out I think there's no such thing as Islamic terrorists. That's a really silly thing to claim, so you might want to back up on that one before you end up with more egg on yr face than is already there...

[Raineyb]

60. You're called a bigot because you openly and unashamedly declared that people

of a certain faith cannot serve because of their faith. It is the very definition of bigotry. That you insist on squealing as though you were the one affronted when you've shown yourself to be a bigot demonstrates a deficiency on your part not on those who rightfully call out your bigotry.

[TicketyBoo]

76. I said no such thing.

I did not say that. Ever.

Maybe you've replied to the wrong post, because I never said that.

I don't think that, and I am no bigot.

I guess you think Ed Schultz is a bigot, too, because he said exactly what I've been saying.

[TicketyBoo]

77. Please

post a link to where I said anything remotely like that.

[stranger81]

69. Sorry, but Daniel Pipes only gets called a bigot because he is a huge, blatant, stinking bigot.

Why anyone remotely interested in political views of the persuasion discussed at this site would want to defend this d-bag is beyond me.

[Raineyb]

59. Pipes is as bigoted as you are

It's no surprise that you'd find him to be credible.

And I would suggest Juan Cole would know more than Mr. Pipes.

[TicketyBoo]

67. And, again,

someone calls me a bigot because I am not too blind to see the truth.

I truly wish that this had been someone without an Arabic name and Islamic background who had perpetrated this craziness. But it wasn't.

My heart sank when I heard his name because I knew that the right-wingers would be spewing hate against all Muslims, and now you have lumped me in with them because I can see that this was a result of this man's extremist views running amok.

Too many people on this board are willing to absolutely believe that this could not possibly be related to Islamic extremism. But they are wrong, and obviously so. Open your eyes, people. Don't shut out the truth.

From NPR:

some of Hasan's supervisors and instructors had told colleagues that they repeatedly bent over backward to support and encourage him, because they didn't have clear evidence that he was unstable, and they worried they might be "discriminating" against Hasan because of his seemingly extremist Islamic beliefs.

[Violet_Crumble]

42. Yeah, it's the rush to judge that concerns me as well...

And having skimmed through this thread, I can see one poster embracing the bigotry of Pipes (after all, the very first sentence of that dribble he wrote where he takes pains to point out the killer was a Muslim and the victims non-Muslims, indicated a very bigoted perspective towards Muslims) and trotting out the stalwart of those who condone bigotry and intolerance, that what they're peddling isn't bigotry but is deemed to be politically incorrect by those who want to stifle their freedom of speech.

[LostInAnomie]

17. He's right.

People have been twisting themselves in knots to avoid saying what the evidence so far has clearly shown.

At best, Hasan is a mentally disturbed man whose problems were exacerbated by radical Islamic views.

[TicketyBoo]

20. Whew.

Somebody gets it, at least.

[artfan]

23. I 'get it' as well

but what is the solution? Nuts come in all kinds. How do you filer out dangerous people without punishing the innocent?

[EFerrari]

25. It's not that I don't "get" it. It's that I think Pipes is not only wrong

but also full of it.

[TicketyBoo]

28. And I

respect his opinion and think he's correct.

I also think that too many people on DU just can't see something that is as plain as day, and that is a shame, because this exact reasoning is why it's going to happen again.

It's the exact point Pipes makes. You're the proof of it.

[EFerrari]

31. What utter cr@p. Pipes is trying to make political points

when the dead have barely been honored yet.

He's not only dishonest, he's disgusting, too.

[TicketyBoo]

33. I see nothing

political about that piece. I truly don't understand how you can refuse to see this for what it was.

[EFerrari]

35. The whole piece is a diatribe against the left.

And not a very good one, at that.

lol

[The Magistrate]

43. Then, Sir, You Are Not Looking....

"There is none so blind as him who will not see."

[TicketyBoo]

45. I said it first.

So right back at you.

There is no way to see this as anything but killing for a religious purpose.

Some DU'ers say they want to "understand" this so it won't happen again.

But, no. That's not what this is about.

Poor thing. He was so abused. Better not abuse any potential terrorists so this doesn't happen again.

Well, lots of guys are taking worse abuse than this privileged doctor-Major and they don't go around yelling "Allah akbar" while they're shooting people.

Personal responsibility. Shooting himself in the foot (or robbing a bank, if he couldn't take the pain) would have got him OUT if that was all he wanted.

Nope, he equated suicide bombing with one of our soldiers throwing himself on a grenade to save fellow soldiers. He was trying to take out as many "enemies" as possible. Planned and calculated.

[The Magistrate]

46. If You Wish To Continue Playing, Sir, Engage No. 41, Above....

At this point, it is abundantly clear you are simply wrestling phantomsof your own creation, rather than engaging actual comments by persons here in this thread.

[EFerrari]

57. You're justifying bigotry on the ground of national security

just like this creep Pipes did. Well done!

[EFerrari]

26. I have yet to read anyone make the case that Hasan killed those people

because he was oppressed and so, not guilty of murder.

[TicketyBoo]

29. Really?

Well, that's coming. The poor, poor thing.

[EFerrari]

34. Only in the Faux cartoon version of what the left thinks.

Of course, if Faux or Pipes or the wingnuttery had to actually weigh an argument instead of put out their sorry predictable spew, their little pointed heads would explode.

[LostInAnomie]

36. I haven't seen anyone say he's not guilty...

... but I have seen it said that he killed those people because of oppression.

Here's and example: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6980127

[EFerrari]

37. That OP says explicitly that his observations are not excuses.

Do you disagree that Muslims and in particular, younger Muslim men have been treated badly since 9/11? Maybe I'm not understanding your point.

[LostInAnomie]

39. Ugh... I had the exact same argument...

... with the OP in that thread. You can't make a thread titled "We created the socalled terrorist", make a whole list of reasons why he was pushed to kill by society, not even hint at the idea that Hasan is responsible for his own actions, and then claim that you aren't making excuses for him. It's an insult to everyone's intelligence.

Yes, I am saying that young Muslim men in the US have not been treated bad enough by society at large that it would warrant or excuse mass murder or any acts of terrorism. I am further saying that if radical Islamic views played a direct role in Hasan's murder spree we should shy away from calling him a terrorist out of PC fear.

[EFerrari]

40. Okay, I don't want to put you through a repeat of what seems to have been

an unpleasant argument although "everyone's intelligence" should be able to hold the thoughts that we are incubating violence AND that he is responsible at the same time.

[EFerrari]

38. I wonder if the right wingnuttery is going in this direction because

it's going to turn out that Bush's FBI screwed up again.

ETA: Well, looky here:

Major Hasan came to the attention of the FBI in December 2008 as part of an unrelated investigation being conducted by one of our Joint Terrorism Task Forces (JTTFs). JTTFs are FBI-led, multi-agency teams made up of FBI agents, other federal investigators—including those from the Department of Defense—and state and local law enforcement officers.

http://www.fbi.gov/pressrel/pressrel09/forthood110909.htm

[TicketyBoo]

47. Your supposition

is further proof that this was terrorism.

If "it's going to turn out that Bush's FBI screwed up again" they wouldn't be pointing out that this was an act of terrorism. No, they would be arguing just the opposite, that he was just a poor misguided soul who cracked. Just exactly what you argue.

President Obama: "No faith justifies these murderous and craven acts; no just and loving God looks upon them with favor."

It obvious that the President thinks Islamic fervor was responsible for this.

[EFerrari]

56. Um, my supposition turned out to be correct.

And I haven't argued that he is a poor misguided soul. :)

[BoneDaddy]

61. So "left wingers" should ignore

that his muslim beliefs didn't, in part at least, fuel his acting out a massacre?

We can look at Timothy McVeigh and clearly blame his white supremicist thinking as one of the main reasons he did what he did, why would we overlook this?

Instead the focus of this the focus is on oppression, somehow excusing him of his behavior. I would like to believe it probably was a combination of both.

[uppityperson]

64. Did he single out and shoot non-Muslims? I hadn't read that he did.

I read that he just started shooting, not that he'd lined up non-Muslims.

[kctim]

70. This Pipes stuff

sounds just like the stuff blasted here when that guy shot the Pitt cops. Got even worse when they found the righty books.

[EFerrari]

71. Today Hoekstra and McCain said the same thing.

It's the Republican response.

[kctim]

72. They read DU?

Doesn't matter who said it though, if its true.

[EFerrari]

73. They said the same thing Pipes says in this article.

Disgusting, dishonest swine.

[kctim]

74. Ah, gotcha now

sorry so slow, almost 5 here and ready to head home.