What's your view of spanking children?

[Bonn1997]

What's your view of spanking children?

[eleny]

1. .

:popcorn:

[Teramis]

2. two or three slight spankings can't hurt

And may teach the baby a lesson, as he perceives the dissatisfaction in the parent's face at the same time.

[XemaSab]

3. You believe in spanking babies?

Um, welcome to DU. :popcorn:

[Teramis]

18. Babies are too fragile. I'd say it can be done to children over 5

But slightly, without hurting them.

[Hepburn]

53. What the hell do you think spanking is gonna teach a baby except fear and anger?

Sheesh...sounds like what Barbara probably did to Dumbya.

[TheMadMonk]

96. A stinging slap on the wrist, or noisy but painless clap to a well padded rear ...

...is a damned site more effective that initiating a game of "Let's outsmart/manouever mum/dad." by attempting distraction or removing the object of fascination. Eventually, no matter how careful you are, the odds are damned good that a child will be in a position to investigate unhindered. Far far better to establish an autonomous pain aversion response, than to rely on mantaining a totally "antiseptic" environment.

Generally it only takes a very small number of stings, before a two finger touch to the wrist is sufficent reminder not to touch. And then as language skills become established a verbal reminder "Is that yours?" soon suffices. The final result, generally well before their third birthday, is a child who will ask permision before reaching and who will accept "no" as an answer without demure or a shrieking tantrum.


Several hundred million years of evolution has gone into establishing pain aversion as a (arguably the) primary survival mechanism. There is not a nurturing creature on this planet that does not use in the rearing of its young.


Should it be used as the ONLY mechanism? Of course not.


Other methods: time out, grounding, removal of privileges, etc ARE NOT pain free. They are simply the substitution of emotional pain for physical. Furthermore, any "marks" left by misapplication are generally not immediately obvious, and may indeed not manifest until many years later.

A major shortcoming of "modern" child rearing techniques is that they are not terribly effective, unless they are applied with 100% consitency AND in a manner that pretty much has to be tailored to the individual needs and peculiarities of each and every separate child.

Any idiot can quickly learn exactly when, and how hard to spank. (Which is fortunate, given that any idiot can become a parent.) However, it takes a good deal of specialised training, the ability to adsorb such and a high degree of empathy to effectively apply "enlightened" childrearing methods. This is why accredited childcare now generally requires at least diploma level, if not degree level education.

[TicketyBoo]

146. I didn't ever

slap my child anywhere, and spankings stopped before he was out of diapers. I remember spanking him one time for running out into the street. It's the only time I remember, but I know I did it more often than that. His father was spanking him too hard, and I asked him to go to a parenting course called 1-2-3 Magic. It worked so well, that I started using it, too, and there were no spankings after that.

One time I was at a restaurant with my friend and her two little girls. One of them got sassy with her, and she popped her in the mouth. The kid's head hit the wall and her mouth started bleeding. This was before I had a child of my own, and I wouldn't have dreamed of hitting him anywhere but his bottom. My parents spanked me, but very rarely, and never hit me anywhere else but on my bottom. My husband's father beat him with a belt. Our son had things much better than his father did.

[TheMadMonk]

156. I don't as a rule believe in spanking past nappy age.

(Though there are the odd few tweens and teens I wouldn't mind making an exception for. With a club.) The idea is to get the basic aversion response happening at a level below that of higher cognition.

Although under plenty of circumstances a sharp reminder later in life will work wonders. I once (and only once) called my mother a bitch while she was holding a hairbrush, she meant to get me with the back, but I felt the bristles. And from that moment, to well into my teens, being asked, "Do you want to feel the rough side of the hairbrush?" was enough to jerk me up shorter than a rope around my neck.


Parenting courses are wonderful in theory, but unfortunately putting them into effect successfully requires a level of self-discipline and dedication, that is beyond the capabilities of far too many people. Furthermore, a half arsed effort is a good way to end up with the worst of all worlds.

It is all well and good for people here to brag how successful they were/are with your own children, or their parents were with them, but I've seen plenty of the horror stories where such techniques were mis-applied.

Correlation does not neccessarily equate with cause, but it is of interest to note that the rise in selfishness and anti-social behaviour pretty much goes hand in hand with the decline in real consequences meted out for bad behaviour. How many 18-21 year olds cap a ten plus year juvenile record that can often run into hundreds of offences with a nation shocking effort that all too often will see them die in prison?

[TicketyBoo]

175. Consistency is key.

And I do think it's easier if you have only one or two children to think about, at least, for me. I'm afraid my nerves would have been jangled with more than that. That 1-2-3 Magic course worked wonderfully well for us.

Our son is 22 years old and graduated from college this past May with a 4-year, full ride scholarship (tuition, room and board) which also paid him about $2,000 per semester in cash for going to school. The only thing he had to pay for out of that stipend was textbooks. Finding a good job in this economy is proving challenging, and he is bemoaning the fact that he graduated in the worst year possible as far as trying to start a career is concerned.

[David Zephyr]

72. Are you a parent?

I am. We never spanked our child and I have no idea what "lesson" you think a child would receive other than fear and that it's OK to use physical violence against another.

My child never learned that "lesson" and she turned out great.

[Midlodemocrat]

111. Hey, while we are at it. Two or three shit kickings of you can't hurt. Right?

:eyes:

[donheld]

160. That's for when they get older

:sarcasm:

[Bonn1997]

141. What are the goals of spanking? Are you sure they cannot be accomplished without inflicted physical

pain or discomfort?

[TicketyBoo]

176. I don't think

I ever administered a spanking that inflicted physical pain or discomfort. Spanking a diapered toddler merely scares him and gets his attention, but there are better ways without having to intimidate a child. If you set up consequences and are consistent, you won't have to resort to spanking.

I don't think spanking hurt me, though, and I got a few of them in my day.

[Name removed]

180. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LakeSamish706]

4. Spanking will teach kids great lessons. That hitting is ok.....

Oh wait, thats not what we want to teach them is it? :sarcasm:

There are other forms of discipline that are much more effective than hitting.

[ejpoeta]

15. i know that i tried spanking with my daughter when she was younger at the advice of a friend.

and it did indeed just cause her to start hitting. it didn't get her to stop doing whatever itwas she was doing either. funny thing is that the guy accused me of beating my kid when he called CPS on us.... which we weren't. I may have tried it once or twice, but like i said... it wasn't effective. and believe me.... sometimes it has been hard not to.... when emy would have her temper tantrums she'd hit me in the face and pull my hair.... it took everything i had not to reciprocate the slapping my face. but i knew that it would only make things worse. best thing to do was always to let her tire herself out... i'd put her in the car and stand outside and cool off.

[David Zephyr]

66. That's the only lesson they learn. Bravo for your post.

!

[TicketyBoo]

177. I agree that there are better ways

but you can believe that spanking never taught ME that hitting was ok.

Just because a parent does something does not give a child license to do it, and children learn that pretty early.

That old saw about spanking teaching kids that hitting is the way to resolve conflict just isn't true.

[murray hill farm]

5. When your 3 yr old...

tries to run from you into busy traffic, it is a good time to spank (not beat, spank)...that is about it!

[Happyhippychick]

10. I can't agree with that. My 2 year old did this and the look of absolute terror and anger on my

face combined with my shriek was more than enough to prevent her from ever doing it again. If your kids aren't used to seeing horror or hearing you scream, those things can be quite effective.

[David Zephyr]

73. We raised our daughter with zero violence. Spanking is for neanderthals.

You are a great mom.

[Midlodemocrat]

115. Here's a thought. Hold her fucking hand.

[ejpoeta]

6. i think there are times.... but as a last resort when nothing else works.

Personally I have found that it doesn't work.... but every kid is different. my kids tend to do better with positive reinforcement and taking things away. sticker charts to earn things work well.... but taking away privileges also can be quite effective. making my 10 year old earn time on her ds is quite an incentive for her.

[Mojambo]

7. It's not for me.

I think it sends a not so great message.

[NMMNG]

8. Why is hitting children "spanking",

and considered a legal, acceptable form of punishment/discipline, while an adult hitting another adult (even if the victim is quite capable of defending themselves) is considered assault & battery?

[Happyhippychick]

12. +1. I always refer to it as "hitting", not the watered down "spanking", "tapping", or "trying to

get her attention".

[LoveIsNow]

13. Couldn't have said it better myself...

[Sebastian Doyle]

39. For the same reason that hitting women is still permitted in some cultures

because they are considered "property" as opposed to human beings.

[NMMNG]

44. Sadly you're right

:-(

[JDPriestly]

55. Because spanking is defined as on the buttocks and by hand.

Straps, belts, hitting a child other than on the bottom, etc. are not spanking.

[Bonn1997]

62. Not sure that explains why it's not hitting. That just tells us where to hit (buttocks) and what to

hit with (hand).

[JDPriestly]

167. I'm just telling you what I understood the law in California to be

a couple of years ago.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

92. So I should be allowed to grab a grown adult and put him in a crib when he hasn't had his nap? n/t

[JNelson6563]

189. I wish someone would do that to me.

:-)

[MissDeeds]

95. Great post n/t

[Hello_Kitty]

173. Not to mention that if you so much as touched a random adult's ass

You could, and probably would, get slapped with sexual assault charges.

[phasma ex machina]

179. Perhpas a remnant of Roman law?

The pater familias was the head of a Roman family. ... In theory at least, he held powers of life and death over every member of his extended familia through ancient right but in practice ...

Yet another reason to hate the Roman Empire.

[polichick]

9. Spanking isn't about children - it's about adults who are out of control. nt

[MercutioATC]

11. Spanking teaches kids that it's ok for big people to hit little people.

That's my personal view. I don't favor legislating it.

[1]

14. spare the rod, spoil the child...

[quaker bill]

19. complete BS

[1]

21. says you...

[winyanstaz]

132. I have raised my own three sons and one much loved step son and three lovely step daughters...

and they all turned out fine human beings....and I didn't have to spank them either.
Children respond to time-out and having privileges taken away without having to resort to beating on them.
All physical abuse of the child teaches them is that violence is the way to deal with things.

[MajorChode]

138. ...and others who actually know what they are talking about

[DainBramaged]

51. Of course, if adults get their rocks off hitting kids it's OK

but for the rest of us, it's unnecessary and spoiling is far more enjoyable. Unless of course there's that mean streak.....

[rucky]

24. Shephard's rod?

used for tending sheep?

[1]

28. no, silly. a fenwick hmg spinning rod...

its 7' long. i don't have to run so fast...

[Orangeone]

69. Shepards don't beat their sheep with the rod

It's supposed to be used to GUIDE them....

[quaker bill]

16. I never spanked,

and both my kids are grown and just fine.

That said, I don't favor prohibition as we have more laws than are effectively enforced now. We seem less than able to enforce current law against outright abuse even where significant permanent injury occurs. I suggest we start there and when those laws are adequately enforced, perhaps consider something else. But a spanking prohibition is patently unenforceable and should never be adopted.

[LakeSamish706]

22. I agree with you, they could'nt enforce this law if they wanted to... It would be stupid...

The only spankers that would be charged, are those seen in public.... Not a good law at all.

[Bonn1997]

34. It's the law in many European countries. It sends a message about the values of the country. You

shouldn't decide to pass laws based on how easy they are to enforce. You should pass laws based on moral values and scientific research. Then find ways to enforce as best you as you can those laws. I'm sure more instances of speeding than spanking would go unenforced daily if such a law were passed. Few would argue there should be no speed limits though.

[LakeSamish706]

37. I don't know, I think if lawmakers are making laws, they should be enforceable....

For those that spank behind closed doors, this isn't the case for the most part. To many of us (as indicated by your poll) it should be common sense that spanking basically doesn't work and only teaches kids that hitting is ok.

[demmiblue]

17. I guess you were not satisfied by your Lounge post:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=9118900&mesg_id=9118900

Spanking is abuse. Duh!

[Bonn1997]

26. I wanted more serious replies

for reasons indicated here
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=9118900&mesg_id=9119004

[David Zephyr]

75. It's as important as any issue we will discuss here at the DU.

Beating children is wrong.

The proudest parents are those who can look their children in the eyes when they are adults and know they never were beaten, whipped, spanked or hit.

My daughter, now in her thirties, never has spanked her daugher either.

We are a civilized family.

[Bonn1997]

144. Yet the thread has a negative rec total. Shows how important that feature is!

I'm sure I could have posted another thread on how evil Joe Leiberman is instead and gotten a high positive rec. total though!

[alittlelark]

20. I spanked my daughter once when she was 22 months old.

The gardener left the back gate open and she ran into the street.... I freaked out and smacked her butt 3-4 times telling her never to go out into the street.

I felt guilty as hell about it (because I was spanked/beat as a kid and swore I would never hit my kids), but she has been paranoid about traffic ever since.

She's even nervous about crosswalks and is standing behind me laughing about this post. She now understands her paranoia.



That said - Spanking a child is abuse in my mind.

[annabanana]

23. Wait 'til she has a 22 month old child. She will understand.. n/t

[mnhtnbb]

99. The gardener deserved the spanking, so you spank a toddler?

That is seriously messed up.

[alittlelark]

101. good point.

The sad thing is that I would have possibly been charged w/ assault if I'd swatted the gardener.

Not so since it was my kid.

:crazy:

[mnhtnbb]

154. Crazy, isn't it? Spanking is so often an emotional response to

anger or fear (in your case)generated by a child's behavior. The hard part is figuring
out age appropriate disciplinary measures which teach the child the values we want to convey.

[Bitwit1234]

25. A light tap on the rear will let them

know who is boss. I do not believe in hurting them.

[Bonn1997]

27. Hmmmm. I thought spanking implied hurting...otherwise you're just touching or feeling the kid's butt

[Midlodemocrat]

149. Right. Just like a light tap on the head.

FFS. It's abuse. And, do you want to be 'the boss'? Because that's just fucking sick.

[kaylynwright]

29. I got smacked a few times on the bum...

I got smacked a few times on the bum and I think I turned out ok. It was never hard and I was never beaten. I think I cried a few times out of embarrassment and the action that I got spanked for never happened again. Mostly, it was when I did something really bad, like pushing my 2 year old brother down our stairs. It was actually intentional, since he was sitting on my blanket, and I was unaware that pulling the blanket one direction would make him fall the other (down the stairs), but I sure as heck never forgot that concept.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

30. Absolutely Parents Should Be Allowed To Spank Their Children.

Teachers? No fuckin way.

But if a parent does choose spanking as a disciplinary option, there are obviously lines that can't be crossed. It doesn't take much of an effort when spanking in order to get your point across. If a parent does it in a downright abusive and violent manner, then that's a whole different story.

[David Zephyr]

76. Are you a parent? Do you spank your children, if you are?

Spanking is child abuse.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

100. No, It Really Isn't.

Maybe you should go to a battered women's shelter and speak to some of the children there... Ask them what child abuse really is.

Spanking within reason? No. Not even close.

[David Zephyr]

105. You dodged the question: Are you a parent?

Maybe you might want to not assume things. I do know what battered women and children are. I've volunteered at shelters and clinics since 1970.

You dodged my question: Are you a parent? Why the dodge?

I am a parent and a grand parent. My child never was spanked or whipped in her life. Never. Her child has never been spanked. So much for your championing beating children.

Are you a parent?

[AndyA]

31. Note: spanking does not equal beating or abuse.

Painful enough to remind them they did something wrong, and used only as a last choice.

[Bonn1997]

35. Note: You have stated your opinion as if it were fact

[AndyA]

150. No, my post was made as a cautionary remark. n/m

[David Zephyr]

65. Are you a parent?

I am and spanking never happened in our home. We were smart enough to realize we could parent without physical or vocal abuse.

And our daughter is a brilliant accountant working on now becoming an attorney as a children's advocate.

Hitting children is wrong.

[Midlodemocrat]

120. Wrong.

[Le Taz Hot]

191. Spanking is a sign that the parent has

lost the battle and they should seriously think about taking parenting classes along with those oh-so-important anger management classes. Spanking isn't there to "correct" a child because if it was, there are infinitely better ways of doing that. Spanking is for an out-of-control parent and for that, serious psychological help should be sought.

[madokie]

32. As a parent I sometimes spanked

as a grandparent I wouldn't think of it. Why because it never done any good and I now see that/

[pipi_k]

38. Same here

I was spanked/hit as a child.

I spanked/hit my own kids (and I hate myself for having done it).


Now I see that it was wrong and I would never even consider doing it to my grandchildren.

My mom, OTOH, still thinks it's OK, and in fact, one time when my youngest sister's older daughter was having some sort of fits and bit my mom, my mom bit her back. I was horrified. And the really sad part about it all was that sometime later an MRI showed something wrong with my niece's brain that caused her to have fits and bite people. Now she's on medication and no longer has fits.

But geez...biting kids... I have NEVER done that....


I don't think my mom likes kids all that much anyway.

[RobinA]

78. My Mother Believed

in this "biting them back" thing, although her kids didn't bite. The idea was to show them how it felt. When I got older I explained that empathy was a developmental issue and that you couldn't teach a 1 year old empathy by biting them or in any other way. I also pointed out that hurting kids doesn't teach kids not to hurt people. I was wasting my breath. My mother learned discipline in the fine German tradition (and we all know how well THAT turned out) of her own parents and cannot be convinced otherwise. I have seen her do some really indefensible things (not physical abuse) to my sister's children and it was quite effective in the "I will never be like her" sense. I am quite proud of the fact that I have been able to extinquish the bully in me that came directly up the line like a bad gene.

[pipi_k]

33. People like to justify it by saying it "gets the kid's attention"

There are better ways to get a kid's attention than by spanking.

and why is it OK to use on children, but not adults?

People who wouldn't even consider hitting someone who could hit them back think nothing of hitting a child. Why is that...because kids can't hit back?


People who think it's OK to spank a child...try doing it to an adult friend or coworker or employee, etc. Just, you know...to "get their attention" or "teach" them something.

[noamnety]

36. A number of countries have banned it.

I can't see a valid reason for us to be behind in nearly every social issue.

[Bonn1997]

45. "Behind on nearly every social issue."--That's a great, concise way to put it.

[krabigirl]

58. France certainly hasn't.

[usregimechange]

40. Never necessary in my personal and professional opinion.

[mmonk]

41. From the back.

[LeftyMom]

42. I think it indicates a failure of parenting skills.

I've dealt, personally and professionally, with some pretty messed up kids. I've NEVER had to hit one for any reason, and only once had to physically restrain one- a toddler I had to pick up until a door could be closed and locked because he kept trying to follow a parent out.

[David Zephyr]

67. It does.

It makes me sick that there are people that think its swell to hit their kids. Pathetic.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

90. You've only ONCE had to physically restrain a toddler?

Hell, I have to do that two or three times a day, and I'm just babysitting. I'd rather he not touch the hot oven or try to eat the thing he's trying to pull out of the trash can.

[LeftyMom]

97. Yep.

They behave really well for me using just words.

[Midlodemocrat]

110. Which of course, is the appropriate response and answer.

[redqueen]

165. +1

That's all there is to it.

Toddlers should be minded, not physically coerced into submission. All the excuses rationalizing why it's necessary are lame... and simply the desperate attempts of lazy parents to try to pretend it's not a failing on their part.

[LeftyMom]

186. I'm wondering why their kids apparently run into the road every ten minutes.

Clearly spanking isn't working, I'd look into getting an electric fence. ;)

[redqueen]

188. LOL!

:hi:

[Name removed]

181. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[quiller4]

43. I consider spanking of children to be child abuse. It should be

so considered by child protective services when they are called to investigate a child's welfare. Abuse is abuse whether it is perpetrated by a family member or teacher.

[David Zephyr]

68. It is.

.

[Stargazer09]

83. That's not what CPS told me

The officer was surprised that I didn't spank my children more often than I do (which is very rarely, usually when they do something life-threatening and refuse to stop when I yell and scream at them). He said that I'm obviously not abusive, and even told me that spanking (using a hand, nothing else) is perfectly legal. He sounded like he wished more parents would spank their kids; I guess he's seen too many spoiled brats during his career.

Younger children, and those with special needs, don't understand words and explanations. For their own safety, you have to do SOMETHING.

Oh, and before you ask why I was talking to CPS, it was because my developmentally delayed kindergartner escaped from school one day and was almost hit by a truck. The officer just wanted to get more information about my son and our family to help us decide how to deal with my son's lack of awareness with his surroundings.

I certainly don't think teachers should have the right to spank children, though. They are not raising my children. That's my job. If any of my kids act up to the point where they deserve a spanking, then the teachers can call me. I'll take care of the punishment (which is almost never spanking, but my kids know it's an option).

Abuse, at least to me, is allowing your child to be so spoiled and out of control that he/she becomes a menace to society.

[FirstLight]

126. +1

:thumbsup:

Hard line views on this are really hard to swallow.

I have gone to the opposite extreme (time outs, speaking nicely, etc) and found that it doesn't work. I end up having to raise my voice to get their attention and STILL they run all over me. Nope I have recently gone back to the "old school" ways of parenting. Sit them in a chair and DARE them to move (the eyes are the effective part of THAT one! lol)...and i haven't had to DO it yet, but the threat of the soap-bar when they talk back is a good one too... my grandmother would make my mom go outside and pick her own 'switch'(.. it was in the South in the 40's, what do you expect?)

Every child is differnt and some just have a harder head (butt) than others. My oldest needed hardly ANY discipline, a look or a few words were enough...
The youngest two are hell on wheels, and i have had to try many different approaches and sometimes, they are lucky i just put them in their room and shut the door, because if i tried to deal with them at the moment it would be out of anger...and that is a hard one to deal with when they have flooded the bathroom by playing in the toilet ! :rolleyes:

[ThomWV]

46. There is simply no excuse for any adult ever striking a child - none whatsoever

[David Zephyr]

77. Yep. No excuse excep that the adult lost control of him/herself and hit a child.

No excuse.

[Raine]

47. My parents didn't believe in spanking

no one ever laid a hand on me or my brother and we turned out perfectly fine.

[David Zephyr]

80. Kudos to your parents.

My daughter is the first generation in my family to have never been hit.

My grand daughter is the second now.

Your parents were good parents, Raine. Tell them so.

[Raine]

89. THANKS

yes they were very good and I feel so lucky to have had them as my parents. My mother came from an abusive home and she worked hard to break that cycle and she did. :-)

[saltpoint]

48. Comprehensively oppose.

I'm for parents and extended family and teachers, etc. to use language to uplift rather than paddles and paws to strike.

[DainBramaged]

49. Not once did my beloved ex or myself EVER hit our beautiful daughter

There wasn't EVER a point where it was necessary or even considered. And personally, parents who need to strike their children to discipline them should have their parenting license revoked.

[David Zephyr]

63. Nor did we, DainBramaged.

You and your beloved ex along with my companion and I and millions upon millions of other parents are proof that one does not need to use physcial abuse to a child.

You are a good parent and should be proud.

[DainBramaged]

71. And you also. Proof, but those who insist on violence do not accept proof

only perpetuating the chain of violence.


:hug:

[Warren DeMontague]

50. Generally I think it's bad parenting but I'm not in charge of what other people do.

Personally, it's not how I like to discipline.

[bik0]

52. Anyone who can't raise kids without spanking

is either lazy, ignorant or both. Spanking is a shortcut which saves time for the parent but achieves little for the development of the child. It's a selfish act. Spanking takes much less brain power than trying to teach a lesson. Discipline is derived from the word disciple which means "to teach".

[krabigirl]

57. MMkay, I guess all of the parents up until the 80s were ignorant then.

[bik0]

79. My parents were ignorant.

[JDPriestly]

54. Spankings are defined to be by hand and across the buttocks only.

It is never necessary to spank. Never, never, never. But if every spanking were prosecuted, the courts would be able to do nothing else. If a child is emotionally well connected to his or her parents, spankings are not necessary. And if the child is not emotionally well connected to the parents -- well, good luck because spankings won't help to strengthen what connection there is.

Children should not be punished out of anger. That is a tough one, but if you think about it, clearly the purpose of punishment is not to allow the parent to express anger but to help the child develop discretion with regard to right and wrong and develop the personal self-control to choose to do what is right and actually do what is right. So punishment should educate the child and help the child learn self-control. Punishment should not just create a lot of drama or give the child a lot of exciting attention.

[krabigirl]

56. I think spankings are fine..not beatings obviously but I was spanked and I'm fine.

I don't consider myself "abused." What I find shocking is how people let their kids get away with anything nowadays, and how even raising your voice is considered abuse.

[Bonn1997]

64. Are you fine because or inspite of the fact that you were spanked? Was spanking really *needed* to

teach you the lessons your parents wanted to teach you?

[RobinA]

85. I Was Spanked

and no, it wasn't effective. It was usually for something that annoyed my mother, such as whining. I was a depressed kid. Depressed kids whine. Needless to say, spanking never cured depression. It was utterly counterproductive. In general, we were quite well-behaved.

[Odin2005]

59. Child Abuse.

[David Zephyr]

74. Yep. My daughter wasn't spanked and doesn't spank as a parent.

It's simply barbaric.

[JANdad]

147. So far...

You have called those who do choose to spank, Neanderthals, Uncivilized and now Barbaric...any more insults you care to throw out there oh most perfect of perfect parents of perfect little brats?

[handmade34]

60. positive discipline works

http://www.toronto.ca/health/children/discipline.htm#3

"Use discipline to encourage good behaviour. You are the best role model your child has. Show your child how to solve problems in a peaceful way"

[David Zephyr]

61. It's sick. It's barbaric. We never spanked our daughter once. Never.

And she's a CPA and a terrific mom and she NEVER was spanked or paddled.

People that beat (yes) beat their children are shitty parents at best and thugs at worst.

[mia]

70. No. Spanking teaches that violence is OK.

I've seen a plenty of violent 4-5 year olds in my life and it's scarey. All were spanked and it didn't work.

All were victims of domestic violence and in their worlds they learned that kicking, hitting, pushing and screaming are ways that people get what they want.

"Bad" is good. I'm sick of this pop culture mantra.

Children carry these behaviors into the classroom and cause daily hours of wasted instructional time, not even counting injury to the other students and teachers. How are these young children to know any better? It's a huge problem.

In my opinion, no high school subject is more important than parenting skills, and I've never even heard of such a course.

[Luminous Animal]

81. It is child abuse and like all child abuse, should be illegal.

[bik0]

82. There are ways of disciplining without the hitting

I'm not saying don't punish but there are ways of disciplining without the hitting. Bringing up my son I tried to demonstrate the possible consequences of dangerous behavior - to graphically explain what burning down the house would do to our family and his life. What it would be like to be smashed by a car going 40 MPH if he ignored the traffic light. These are images that scared the hell out of my kids and worked quite well for them to understand that it's a dangerous world and there are decisions that can mean the difference between life & death. I didn't want my kids to equate mistakes with a parental response of discipline - I wanted the consequence of the mistake to be the punishment. The fear of getting smashed by a car going 40 MPH will be a bigger motivator than the fear of getting a swat on the behind. And what if I'm not there - the fear will be there when I'm not. I can't always be there to protect my kids but if they're properly educated they will have a healthy respect for the dangers that lurk in this world.

[SoCalDem]

84. Children who spank, should be given a time-out

:rofl:

[LWolf]

86. I oppose spanking,

but am cautious about legislating it. I guess I don't trust such legislation to be misinterpreted or abused.

[Mari333]

87. children are angels, spanking is child abuse.

my opinion. dont like it? dont respond.

[eShirl]

88. Spanking is for adults. n/t

[deaniac21]

91. Five minut time outs are much more effective.

[Midlodemocrat]

93. Spanking is child abuse and people who spank are child abusers.

End. Of. Story.

It doesn't do a fucking thing. If it were effective? You'd only have to do it once and just the threat would be enough to prevent the behavior you deem a spankable offense.

It's a disgusting, lazy way to parent and anyone who does it should be ashamed.

[Orwellian_Ghost]

94. Yep

It's about authority and control. It's fucking disgusting.

[astral]

98. There are shades of gray here.

There is, first of all, a big difference between spanking a "child" and spanking a "baby." I don't think it helps to spank a baby, even if the only 'pain' is the scary sound of the swat on the diaper.

At what age is it okay to 'spank?' Three? I don't know, but not any younger than two.

What does it mean to "spank?" For me , it meant the flat of my dad's hand, usually not with my pants pulled down, and extremely rare, perhaps three or four strikes and yes it hurt bad enough to make me horrified, ashamed that he felt he had to do that, and despondent.

My galfriends two houses down, however, defined a spanking as a belt with the buckle side slapped on a bare but. They were terribly afraid of a spanking, and remembered all the things they'd ever been spanked for before so they'd remember not to ever do any of those things again.

_____________________________________
Then there's the parents who don't spank, and don't effectively discipline their children at all, whose kids grow up to run the parents' lives as they get physically too big to try to 'change the rules' on them now. What will happen if they don't do what you say? NUTHIN'.

I believe there is a balance there, and parents using corporal punishment or not are not all right or all wrong -- the trick is to bring up your kids to have respect and obedience and grow themselves a little backbone in the process, which they will badly need later on in life.

And you'll be able to pick out the ones who didn't get what they needed growing up.

[Midlodemocrat]

113. No, they're aren't. Raising your hand to inflict punishment on a child?

It's wrong. And if you disagree? You're a lazy, disgusting excuse for a parent. Not spanking a child does not equal permissiveness. In fact, I would go as far to say that most permissive parents spank because it is the easy fucking way out. It takes a lot to parent and to parent well? Well, let's just say it's fucking impossible.

[flvegan]

102. See? I told you that you'd get what you were looking for here.

[Midlodemocrat]

108. Oh, schmoopie. I wuvs you.

[flvegan]

112. Didya see?

This thread? My fault.

*skips away laughing*

[Midlodemocrat]

114. Thinking it might be mine. I *did* wonder where you were. LOL.

Hitting a child? My God. What have we fucking become? Next you know? Michael Vick and his abuse of animals will be poo-poohed.

Oh. Wait. My bad. Gah.

[flvegan]

124. Check it out:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=9118900&mesg_id=9119015

[Midlodemocrat]

125. Well, you know me, dude. I have no experience in this.

At. All. That PhD from UCONN? Fucking worthless. I will capitulate to a loser on an anonymous forum.

Oh, wait. No, I won't.

[flvegan]

135. I fear for the forthcoming quints.

[redwitch]

151. You should be spanked!

:spank:

[HipChick]

103. I'm tired of seeing kids who dont behave themselves..and the parents do nothing

[Midlodemocrat]

109. And, beating those babies' ass is the answer. Awesome.

:eyes:

[1]

117. "beating those babies' ass"??? beating??? my god, can you be more melodramatic?

melodramaticdemocrat?

[Midlodemocrat]

118. Nah, I'll leave that to you.

You apparently have decided that all the 'brats' that you run into are the 'unspanked'. You couldn't be more wrong.

Fact checking. Not a bad thing.

[1]

121. beating? really? beating? checking one's hyperbole. not a bad thing either...

[Midlodemocrat]

123. What is the person you were hitting was an adult?

*taps foot*

[Bonn1997]

142. What are the goals of spanking? Are you sure they cannot be accomplished without inflicted physical

pain or discomfort?

[1]

104. ok. y'all have convinced me. but do me a favor, keep your un-spanked and un-disciplined kids home.

because whatever other method y'all are doing?

it ain't working.

your little "expressive" precious is a pain in the ass to the rest of the world...

(which is probably why while most of the comments are against spanking, the spanking vote is winning the poll. ha!)

[Name removed]

116. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jeanpalmer]

106. If you read the definition of criminal assault

in just about any state statute, it qualifies as an assault. To get around the obvious breach of the law, the law has to spell out an exemption for spanking.

If you can spank a child, why can't a husband "spank" his wife if she's been bad?

[1]

107. heh. perfect! in the future, at birth, baby is introduced to mommy, daddy, and her lawyer...

[brendan120678]

163. My wife likes it when...

I spank her for being bad! :spank:

Oh wait - that's not what you meant?

[nachosgrande]

119. I was spanked as a child and have no problem with it.

The rules were clearly spelled out by my parents and I knew what the punishment was if I was to willfully break those rules. The threat of a spanking had a great deterrent effect on me and I was probably only spanked a couple of times during my childhood. I did not turn out to be a homicidal maniac, nor do I have lasting psychological/emotional scars from my parents' "abuse."

Having said that, I do think spanking in many cases, unfortunately, serves as a cover for an abusive or lazy parent.

[Midlodemocrat]

122. YAY!!!!

:eyes:

It's abuse. Anyone who spanks is an abusive parent. Game. Set. Match.

[nachosgrande]

127. That's bullshit.

Spanking was only used when I was of an age where I knew right from wrong, and clearly understood the consequences of my actions, and my parents never even did it to the point where it was any more painful than a slight sting at worst. It wasn't abuse any more than my parents telling me they were ashamed of me for my actions (which was the worst punishment I personally could endure), or being grounded was. My sister and I knew it wasn't abuse, but punishment for our actions. Abuse implies senseless, meaningless, random, or excessive physical/verbal violence against another. If you are against spanking, then you should be against all forms of punishment, since they all inflict emotional "pain" upon their recipients.

[Name removed]

128. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nachosgrande]

133. Lol. Personal attacks. The last line of defense for those with no argument.

Yes. I am a newbie. I did not exist on this planet prior to my 26 posts on DU. Your 1000+ postings worth of Internet wasted life gives so much added power to your opinions. I bow down to thee, Lord of Child Abuse. Thank you for enlightening such a peon as myself.

Now please explain to me why what my parents did qualifies as abuse. You hold yourself out to be something of an expert in the field, with your reference to your Ph.D and all - so give me something a little more instructive than "end of story" please.

[Midlodemocrat]

148. The simple fact that you think it is okay to hit a child

is what your parents did to you. Hitting a child is wrong. And, spanking a child? Is hitting a child.

Only a bully and a coward hits someone smaller.

[XOKCowboy]

131. Midlo isn't interested in facts...

You're now a "newbie" and hence have no credibility. Midlo's mind is pretty much closed.

PS I agree with you 100%.

[XOKCowboy]

130. You just insulted my parents and grandparents.

I'm glad that you know the "Truth" and that anybody who disagrees with you is wrong (and obviously stupid). You sound like the members of Westboro Baptist Church.

[LeftyMom]

140. I got the piss beat out of me as a child and I came out okay.

I wouldn't say that means it's a good idea. :shrug:

FWIW, getting hit didn't keep me out of trouble. It made me really good at not getting caught.

[madamesilverspurs]

129. Define spanking.

Are you talking a swat on the butt or a fist to the side of the head? What some call 'spanking' would qualify as assault and battery if done to an adult. There's enough pain in life without grownups like me finding excuses to cause it for beings less than half my size. I've never struck a child, and at 61 there are no plans to start doing so. Brutality is a piss poor excuse for discipline.


---

[Midlodemocrat]

134. Happy to.

Putting your hands on another living breathing person to inflict pain is abuse. Regardless of age.

[slackmaster]

136. I voted for teachers but not parents, because that viewpoint is underrepresented

Just to try to make it a little more fair.

[Evoman]

137. Spanking children need to be stopped. Why should kids be able to spank people?

I saw a spanking kid the other day. He tried to hit me with a paddle. I shouted ICE CREAM MAN at the top of my lungs, and it distracted him long enough for me to run away.

Something has to be done.

[gleaner]

139. I picked the first option ....

I don't think hitting kids or adults teaches them anything except how to be afraid and angry. There are much better ways to deal with your kids and have them take something other than an image of you out of control coming at them away from the experience.

[Xicano]

143. All my friends I grew up with who did not get spanked

Have been to jail and don't have good jobs or don't work. As kids they were all spoiled.

On the other hand all us who's parents spanked us, we all but a few ended being responsible working adults.

[Bonn1997]

145. The research doesn't support your anecdotes

As far as the research goes, better outcomes are consistently associated with not spanking. There are unsettled issues of causation but the correlation is considered a settled issue. Many European nations don't allow spanking? Why are their citizens (a) not all criminals and (b) on average actually much more peaceful than ours?
(You are throwing in an unrelated topic on spoiling though, which I'm not going to get into unless a separate thread is created.)

[Happyhippychick]

152. +1. Here's another bit of research: almost 100% of people in jail were spanked as kids.

nt

[Bonn1997]

153. Why does this thread get a NEGATIVE rec total? (Just wondering)....

especially when I could have posted another "Joe Leiberman is evil" thread and gotten a positive total. This thread has already generated a lot of good discussion on a very important issue (in fact one poster called it the most important issue we'll ever discuss here). What criteria do people use when they decide to rec or unrec a thread? I've reached a few conclusions
Factors that seem to get ignored:
A) redundancy with previous threads;
B) amount of productive discussion generated in the thread

Factor that gets a lot of weight:
-OP confirmed and made me feel good about my pre-existing views

I suspect when you start a thread with neutrality like I did, you don't help people feel good about their views and thus don't get a positive rating.

[Orsino]

155. Spanking is an admission of failure.

It says that the parent is incompetent, or has otherwise failed to discipline the child through non-violent means.

That said, I wouldn't ban the practice completely. As a last resort, it may be a way to reach a child who no longer listens.

[Bonn1997]

157. Do you think it was wrong for many European countries to ban it?

[Orsino]

158. Probably.

However, cultures that don't enshrine violence are of course less tolerant of it. Perhaps European parents have generally better support from government, family and friends? :shrug:

[pipi_k]

159. One of the things I wish I had learned years ago...

Sometimes it's really not all about making the kid listen.

Sometimes it's all about the parent doing a bit of listening as well.


Parents want their kids to listen to them? Then they need to respect their kids as human beings with thoughts and feelings and listen to them, too.


Treat people like human beings and you get a whole better response than by trying to force them to do what you want.

[donheld]

161. Spanking is for monkey's only

:D

[happy2bhere]

162. When a parent spanks, they make the job more difficult for the teacher

I do not spank my children but have taken care of preschool children who were spanked regularly. When a parent spanks the child for bad behavior, but the care provider cannot, the child has nothing to fear. They will ignore other forms of discipline.

Spanking is a failure of imagination. There are many ways to provide discipline without hitting. That sort of 'thinking' leads to presidents who attack nations unprovoked. Remember Saddam asked Bush to debate him, contrary to Bush's 'remembery' he let the inspectors in. He was more than willing to talk but instead we bombed the country all to hell killing millions of innocent people and we are still there.

In our house we have a point system. Good Points lead to video games and movies. Bad behaviors take away points. Most kids do not want to lose their video games or movies. It is that simple.

Many parents let their kids watch as many movies as they want and play video games non stop which provides free babysitting. They do not want to take these things away because they will then have to deal with their children. Spanking is much easier.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

164. "You should only beat your children until YOU feel better."

What one of my Psych professors told a woman who asked how much she should spank her kids. Eventually, she got it.

[redqueen]

166. It should be illegal.

There's just no reason for it.

[Echo In Light]

168. We've never spanked our daughter b/c we find it morally wrong & creepy

Not to mention that it only instills the idea in the child that conflict is best resolved through violence ... violence is an unfortunate reality of life, but no need to promote it at that level. That, and I find the idea of an adult striking a child to be a psychotic act that serves no helpful, moral purpose ... but then, I'm not inclined to strike those I love.

The few people I know who got 'whupped' a lot when they were kids have a-hole, conservative parents w/violent tempers - even if they DENY it. Hell, especially if.

[redqueen]

169. My parents are both lifelong Dems...

but they were raised with spankings (or worse) so that's what they used, too.

I find it tragic, really. I think of this child, this new being who trusts their parents completely... and I just can't understand why anyone would want to violate that trust by using physical violence against them.

[Echo In Light]

170. And as we know, there unfortunately ARE plenty of conservative Dems

I was just offering my own perspective from the few people I've known, especially way back when, who had parents like that that they had to suffer with.

[redqueen]

171. My parents are both Yellow Dog dems.

My dad regularly extolls the virtues of socialism and communism... so...

[Hello_Kitty]

172. Yes, creepy. eom

[TheKentuckian]

174. Other: Discipline of last resort for children too young to reason with

or that cannot connect the dots from action to consequence.

In general though, I don't think it works. I remember most all of the spankings (and the beatings too) but learned no lessons other than what random objects hurt the most.

[Shell Beau]

178. I think I accidentally hit the "I agree with spanking" vote.

I do not, however, agree with spanking. I was spanked maybe 2-3 times as a child. I do not plan on hitting my child. I will find other ways to discipline. Ways that don't involve any violence. How can I expect my child to be a peace loving person when she is taught that hitting is ok?

Anyway, I wonder where all of the people are that voted it is ok. It seems most of the replies I have read here are against.

[cynatnite]

182. We generally don't, but there has been a slap on the butt on occasion...

It was never strong enough to hurt, but it most certainly got attention. We have done this in a number of years now. Our oldest two are adults and the youngest is 10. He's too old for that.

[Xicano]

183. Getting a whoopin

LOL this short clip is so true: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Bbap0ocwRE#t=3m31s

(cont) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgZo06eryFg


:rofl:

[flvegan]

184. Kick!

[Midlodemocrat]

185. Dude!!!! LOL.

[invictus]

187. Spanking is barbaric. It should be illegal.

[Le Taz Hot]

190. Child abuse.

Period.

[mdmc]

192. --