I can't wait for the day our politicians stop pandering to the religious

[Stumbler]

I can't wait for the day our politicians stop pandering to the religious

As an American, and an atheist, I firmly believe there should be a sturdy wall separating religion and politics. When I watch our "representatives" bend over backwards to please a backward-thinking group "because of their religious beliefs," it makes me sick.

Our current political culture tells us that no atheist can run for office and reasonably expect to win. This seems to be obvious as 90% of us in the US have some religious belief, and of that group, 100% take offense to someone saying there is no God, or even questioning It's existence. To do so publicly is political suicide. And it is very difficult for a candidate "without faith" to tip-toe or dance around the issue, as many policy issues are based on religious arguments, ie, abortion, gay marriage, DADT. Thus, today's representatives must pass a religious screening to become a representative, even though they're not Constitutionally bound to.

With the absence of atheism among our leaders, our policy debates become entrenched in the warfare of religious beliefs, instead of being weighed in the eyes of Science. Instead of a reasonable, adult conversation about the issues or abortion or gay marriage, we're given a lecture on God's laws, and God's plans, etc. We can't talk about the value of ending a life prematurely, (health of the mother; socio-economic status of would-be parent(s); world-wide over-population concerns) without being told it's murder in the eyes of God to kill a 6-week old, unformed clump of cells. We can't discuss homosexuality being forbidden in the Bible fewer times than adultery and divorce, with regards to "traditional marriage." And so, our politicians, who are essentially perpetual-candidates to their next election, bow to the pressures of the religious in the hopes they haven't lost "the church vote" in 2, 4 or 6 years.

The common argument I hear from those "with faith" is that atheists have no values, morals or beliefs. On more than one occasion I've been asked with full sincerity, "If you don't believe in God, then what's to keep you from killing people?" For some reason, my answer of "simple human decency" doesn't seem to get through most of the time. And for the record, I too have beliefs. I believe in the power of humanity as a whole to overcome and forgive the evils caused by lesser individuals. I believe in Mathematics and Science, and believe that we can use their teachings to create a better world for ourselves, our families and our neighbors. And I believe our society's moral code can and will exist without the threat of punishment from a supernatural being. After all, the threat of our society's death penalty, or many religious beliefs' threat of Hell have done little to curb violence and other anti-social behavior throughout history.

I only hope I can live to see the day when we can put our religious beliefs, or lack thereof, behind us when tackling the many issues facing our future. As on of my favorite ethics teachers said frequently, " 'Because God says so' isn't a valid answer. Think on it, and try again."

[Taverner]

1. You'll be waiting for some time then...

The religious have always had a lock on politics

[Deep13]

2. +1

[paulsby]

3. simply not true

you are being dismissive, prejudiced, and intolerant towards others...

and you are also wrong...

"This seems to be obvious as 90% of us in the US have some religious belief, and of that group, 100% take offense to someone saying there is no God, or even questioning It's existence"

it is simply not true that ONE HUNDRED PERCENT of theists TAKE OFFENSE to somebody claiming there is no god, or (even more ridiculous) "even questioning it's existence"

as to the latter point, some of the most famous and influential theists have repeatedly questioned god's existence at various times in their lives

many theists do not take offense at people who disbelieve.

in your zeal to condemn religious prejudice and ignorance, you ... use ignorance and prejudice.

[Stumbler]

6. I'll conced that the 100% figure is an exaggeration.

First off, I'm not citing any polls or research stats, so I'm not claiming to be 100% accurate. The post was written based on my personal experiences, and in those experiences I agree, it's probably closer to 70-90%. While there are some theists who actively take time to question God's existence, or His role in our lives, they are vastly outnumbered by those who do take offense to such subjects. And it seems those theists who do question God's existence, do end up falling into the camp of atheists and agnostics, whether they state such beliefs publicly or go to their grave with them. Many reports show Mother Theresa having a crisis of faith personally, while maintaining a public image of her being a woman of God.

And yes, I am prejudiced. We all are, in fact, it's human nature. We may like to think it's not universal, but everyone has their own prejudiced views of others. So I won't take offense to that. As for being dismissive, intolerant and ignorant, I can't help but think those words should be reserved for the politically-active religious right in our country, to which the original post was intended to criticize.

[paulsby]

8. well, you just earned metric assloads of respect from me

70-90% may very well be true. i can just say that it aint 100%

fwiw, there are a fair %age of atheists, who would also be offended by an argument for god's existence.

i disagree that those who question god's existence do endup falling into atheists and agnostics. some do, many don't

many religious traditions have great respect for questioning. the jesuits come to mind

also, many believers will say they have FAITH in god, but do not KNOW he exists, and have no problem with questioning faith. many argue that a faith that can't stand up to questioning is a worthless faith

faith takes concentration of will, energy of soul. it's hard (paraphrasing eric lidell in chariots of fire)

many christians, for example, even believe that when jesus questioned, the whole "why hast thou forsaken me" god, he was questioning god's EXISTENCE.

faith is ultimately a choice. theists realize that. so do atheists (i would hope).

i;m not aware of any religion (there may be one) that requires consistent, perfect fait, without doubt or reservation, at all times.

ime, speaking with clergy, it's a process thang as much as a results thang. iow, blind faith is not desired.

[Pool Hall Ace]

4. You get a standing ovation from me.

You speak the truth, and I look forward to the day when a President-elect takes the oath of office and does not conclude it with "So help me God."

And I happen to believe in God.

[LiberalFighter]

5. I don't agree with your assessment on percent with belief.

It is in my opinion 80% or less.

In regards to those that challenge your morality. Challenge them back with all the wars that were fought in the OT. The Spanish Inquisition, Christian Crusades, witch burning.

If morality from one's religious belief is suppose to keep one from killing others than why was it necessary to create their commandments against it? And keep in mind that those commandments weren't in existence until about 1450BC. By their reckoning using Ussher's calculations they didn't have their laws for more than 2500 years.

[ThomCat]

11. When the public is polled about their religious beliefs

the percentage who profess religious beliefs is often in the 90-95% range.

I ran a department in a research firm years ago that did one of these national religious surveys. I remember that was the first time that a statistically significant number of people reported being Wiccan, which was very interesting. But I also remember being very surprised that more than 90% of all people really seemed to belief in a higher power and participated in some religion. I thought it would be lower too.

[tularetom]

7. If fear of god is the only thing that keeps people from killing others

they must assume god is so fucking stupid he cannot read their true intentions.

Either god is omnipotent or he ain't. If he is, you can't fool him by professing faith when you really don't have it. If he isn't there is no reason to be afraid of him.

I think these people are simply taking out an afterlife insurance policy. And it won't work.

[Stumbler]

12. "...taking out an afterlife insurance policy"

Thanks for another springboard to rant on: I've known one good friend and several other acquaintances who've explained their "belief" by using Pascal's Wager. In my experience, it seems these people were indoctrinated at an early age, and haven't had the will nor the interest to pursue the question of God's existence. As for my friend, I threw many ideas and thought-concepts at him, but no matter what I offered he'd say, "You make a good point, but I don't want to take that chance." "That chance" being risking an eternity in Hell for being wrong. My rebuttal at the time, which I still stand by: "If God does exist, would He be more pleased with your blind obedience out of fear, or my use of the cognitive thinking skills he bequeathed me with, even when I use those skills to question or invalidate His existence?"

[ThomCat]

9. Good post!

It would be wonderful if we could demand that religion be removed from politics.

Believe whatever you want, for whatever reason you want, but when you start talking about laws and public policy you better be able to justify and defend your position using logic, reason, and science without ever referring to god or religion.

If the only know that killing someone is wrong is because a god told you this, then you apparently can't figure out right and wrong on your own. That doesn't sound like a very wise person to me.

If the only reason you won't kill is because god is threatening you with hell if you do, then apparently you are only acting good out of fear of reprisal. That doesn't sound like a good person to me.

A good person is good simply because they are. No god is necessary.

A good person learns that you don't do things that harm others because we have a sense of fairness and want everyone to be treated well. No god is necessary to tell us.

Religion is excellent at providing a context and language for talking about being good. I'll definitely admit that. I think that has always been its successful purpose. It convinces people that they have shared valued about what is good so that they know they can get along. But it just doesn't provide that 'goodness'. That was either already there or it wasn't.

When that 'goodness' isn't there, history shows us that religion won't put it there. Religion can be used for evil as easily as anything else. The important religion becomes, the more capable it is of being used for more evil. That evil doesn't come from the religion though, any more than the goodness does.

(Though, the structure and history of a religion will definitely favor or encourage some forms of good and some forms of evil. That's a whole separate issue.)

Today if someone wants to go into government and talk about laws against murder, I don't want them talking about god or the bible. Murder can be discussed and legislated quite well without any need for god or the bible to be involved. Our entire government and everything we need from our government can be done quite well without any need for god or religion. All adding religion is going to do is add bias into our government in favor of one group, and against all others.

[Stumbler]

14. Thanks, ThomCat.

To butcher the paraphrasing of another person's quote: "Without religion, good people would do good, and bad people would do bad. But, it takes religion to make good people do bad things."

For the record, I have few issues with people using religious texts in order to raise bright, well-behaved children. The problems I have are concerned with religion being brought to the public sphere in the guise of political debate, a la, abortion rights, gay marriage and DADT.

When a politician has the nerve to say my gay sister has no right to government-provided marriage benefits, or to deny a loving gay couple of the option to adopt, based solely on religious grounds, that is when I'm outraged. If a person uses the Bible to say "God hates fags" they should also be holding a sign stating God's hatred for Divorce and Adultery. And I'm doubly perplexed when it's a divorced "Christian" who attacks gay marriage or gay families, as if they have some moral superiority due to their being "straight."

Sorry to rant in response, especially when I just wanted to say thanks.

[stray cat]

10. If you think its not corporations, money and business in charge you are naive

[DavidDvorkin]

13. Politicians, the news media, the entertainment media

The culture in general.