Hasan wanted muslim soldiers to be exempted from fighting muslims...

[PurityOfEssence]

Presumably killing Jews, Christians and the ever-popular targets Atheists would be fair game...

Personally, I humbly propose a sliding scale of "conscientiousness": snuff a Christian if directly ordered, but pop off the heathens on one's own impetus for fun and advancement. They could offer double points for Jews on Saturday, and offing a non-believer on a major holy day might merit a gift certificate for, say, sporting events.

When one joins the military, one signs away one's right to affiliation beyond this organization. One should still refuse to do things that are clear war crimes, but granting privileged status to those of one's own religion underlines one of the key anti-social problems with religion: it demands aristocracy, and "others" really just don't count for much. Well, I guess they're good for bragging rights when bringing them to heel, maybe, but that's about it.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/11/09/AR2009110903618.html

[stray cat]

1. Hasan wanted all his colleagues and patients dead and did his best to pull it off

[devilgrrl]

2. Hasan sounds like all the Neo-Nazis, ex-con's and street gang members in the military...

they think that they can write their own rules.

[Gman2]

4. Have we lost our reasoning friggin minds?

[EFerrari]

5. All this bs about him is CYA for all the people who should have seen this coming.

How many doctors worked with him? How many officers? How many intel people monitored his net surfing or posts?

They all let it go.

[cali]

11. yep. This highly disturbed man was promoted and shuffled off to Ft Hood on his way to

Afghanistan. While we don't know that his colleagues didn't express their concerns, we do know that his supervisors were negligent.

[Bobbieo]

19. Yes, Yes, Yes, Cali - His supervisors were negligent!!!

[snagglepuss]

22. Perhaps political correctness gone awry. nt

[EFerrari]

32. Imho, it's simpler than that. We don't take mental illness seriously

in this country, not at all. And we don't seem to learn from these terrible deaths. :(

[snagglepuss]

41. True but I believe that PC would make that even less likely in this case.

Hasan's superiors and peers probably hesitant to signal out a Muslim doctor as being mentally ill.

[EFerrari]

42. I'd hope that this group, which can't be all white Protestant males

would have better skills than that?

[blm]

54. OTOH, there are some unconscionable powerplayers who would like nothing more than for

an incident like Ft Hood to occur so that they can reinforce the idea that we are at 'war' with Islam.

They probably noted Hasan's frail condition long ago and were counting on him snapping eventually.

[PurityOfEssence]

55. You mean religion, or secular mental illness?

It's hard for a rational mind to square observable reality with the fantastical, and that causes insanity in some cases and amplifies it in others. The real problem is that since religion is defined is some untouchable pure goodness and penultimate aspect of life, those who are whacked out of their skulls but wafting about in a beatific religious zeal often slip through the cracks.

The insane parents who hear voices and then kill their children would often be interrupted in their insanity if it didn't have some glorious religious component, and the children would live. With religion exalted as an unquestionable good, those in its grips who haven't been able to keep on an even keel are free to do as they please.

We're taught to consider religious people and especially clergy as inherently "good", and that idiotic bigotry is hard to shake. Personally, I see certainty as a failing, and supernatural certainty as generally a danger, but that's just me...

This guy is the poster child for being above reproach: he's an officer (superior), a chaplain (good by definition) and a psychiatrist (possessed of all the rest of the keys of wisdom, and by definition saner than the rest of us weirdos) and it brings to question what kind of person needs that kind of irreproachability. The list of characteristics of those who need blank-check superiority is a pretty nauseating one, after all.

[EFerrari]

57. Irreproachability -- that's an interesting observation.

I didn't know he was also a chaplain.

For someone who has worked that hard to get all those badges, it could be pretty unbearable to suddenly find himself categorically and impersonally reviled because of his ancestry or culture, both more or less out of his own control.

[PurityOfEssence]

58. Don't confuse culture with religion

Religion is a choice, and it's one for which one should be held accountable.

There's a general acceptance that religion is "off limits" when it comes to criticism of one's actions, and I find that extremely dangerous to society. It stems from the generally held assumption that religion is "good", which I strongly dispute, and I find that many people use this as a shield for their various transgressions.

I don't mean to be combative with you here, but I simply don't hold religion in much esteem at all; I find it to be, for most people, a convenient short-cut and excuse, one borne out of a desire for immunity and privilege, and I don't think that the concept of religion "plays fair" in a pluralist society. What's worse is that it glories in its presumption of superiority.

As always with early reactions to extreme events, peoples' prejudices boil to the surface; as the story develops, we'll see many more aspects of Hasan's journey, and they'll probably defy most attempts to make his life a simplistic touchstone for personal causes.

[timeforpeace]

36. Correct. The PC understanding BS doublespeak is not working, but the death toll is mounting.

[EFerrari]

40. Usually the people who complain about PC doublespeak

are those that are unclear on the concept "discrimination". And the death toll is not mounting because of PC doublespeak but because no one is really taking care of soldiers.

[chatnoir]

50. Completely

They completely turned a blind eye to this man and his mental instability.

[snagglepuss]

21. Bingo nt

[rucky]

3. oy vey.

[tblue]

6. And some, especially those contractors, make sport out of killing Muslims in Iraq..

That's just as bad.

[paulsby]

7. in england, cops are allowed to get away with this crap

for example, a muslim constable was allowed to get a new assignment since he didn't want to guard the israeli embassy.

and rubbish like that.

that may fly in the british constabulatory, but not in the US military.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601085&sid=aOvp8_fVVFsA&refer=europe

[JonQ]

9. I would grant them that right

If they refuse to guard jews then they should be free to do so, just not while being a uniformed police officer.

So turn in your badge and whistle and best of luck with that.

[paulsby]

14. works for me

what next? anti-choice cops refuse to guard clinics?

not gonna fly.

[JonQ]

15. It's like the pharamcists

who refused to give out birth control, or that bus driver lady who wouldn't drive a bus with an atheist ad on it.

Fine you don't have to do anything that goes against your beliefs. But you also aren't guaranteed a job that will cater to your beliefs either.

[snagglepuss]

25. Well said. nt

[snagglepuss]

23. That's outrageous. In fact that should be grounds for dismissal. nt

[paulsby]

29. i knew a cop at WTO

who was on the riot squad who was strongly against WTO

it didn't stop him from standing the line, on a riot squad, during WTO.

[EFerrari]

34. How's our way working so far?

[JonQ]

8. As an atheist

I don't believe people have souls, could I be exempt from having to kill people whom I think are soulless?

[Morning Dew]

10. How much actual fighting do psychiatrists do, again, please?

[snagglepuss]

28. Its not about him as a shrink. He doenst want any Muslim soldier to be required

to kill Muslims.

[wtmusic]

12. Nice. The New York Post version of what he Actually Said.

"It's getting harder and harder for Muslims in the service to morally justify being in a military that seems constantly engaged against fellow Muslims."

"Muslim Soldiers should not serve in any capacity that renders them at risk to hurting/killing believers unjustly."

:eyes:

[Withywindle]

26. Oh, but...

"Muslim Soldiers should not serve in any capacity that renders them at risk to hurting/killing believers unjustly."

Being at risk of hurting/killing unbelievers unjustly is OK then?

[wtmusic]

52. Straw man.

Because I criticize OP for misparaphrasing doesn't imply that I condone the statement.

[Withywindle]

56. Well, the direct quote in the statement is definitely worth a critique on its own.

It hardly exonerates the guy.

[snagglepuss]

35. Who defines unjustly? The essence of being in the military is that you

obey orders, you don't question them. The military isn't a debating society.

[wtmusic]

51. You always question them

or you end up with Haditha.

[snagglepuss]

53. Some circumstances may require questionning but a soldier's duty is to obey

commands, not to question them. I'm not saying that is morally right but that is the reality.

[T Wolf]

13. During WWII, weren't there groups (units) of Japanese-American soldiers that were formed and

didn't they only send those units to Europe rather than the Pacific in order to avoid this very "conflict?"

In today's wars, with the emphasis on killing Muslims, wouldn't that be a prudent move by the military?

Of course, expecting the military to act prudently is itself insane...

[JonQ]

16. I think if muslims were segretated in to special units

people would have a problem with it.

During wwII we also rounded up americans of japanese in to concentration camps.

We did alot back then that wouldn't fly today.

Imagine if obama were to propose camps for muslims, segregated military service for muslims, and nuking mecca. How do you think that would go?

[cali]

17. And did they send Germna American soldiers only to Japan? How about Italian Americans?

The way we treated Japanese Americans was shameless. And your post reflects bigotry. I know you don't mean it that way but the paternalism is sickening. And your post is redolent with it.

[T Wolf]

20. Amazingly, I agree with everything you say. Thanks for the "correction."

I had not thought about the US sending German- and Italian-American soldiers to Europe. You are correct - it (J-A units only to Europe) reflects, not a sensitivity on the part of our government back then but a prejudiced view that soldiers of Japanese descent could not be trusted if they were faced with a face that looked like themselves.

I can come off as paternalistic - my daughter calls it being an asshole. I am glad that you realize that I was not meaning to be bigoted - it just comes out that way sometimes (a lot)?.

[snagglepuss]

38. Kudos to you for such a civil reply.

:applause:

[cali]

39. Thanks. Kudos to you.

And no, I know you didn't mean it the way it came off.

[geek tragedy]

30. As I posted elsewhere, my German grandfather was sent

to the Philippines and Okinawa. Wouldn't surprise me if they did send Germans only to the Pacific.

[Codeine]

46. A quick glance at

the listings of American servicemen awarded the MoH in WW2 quickly disproves that line of thought.

[geek tragedy]

27. My German grandfather got sent to the Pacific. nt

[Garbo 2004]

49. Japanese-Americans also served in Pacific theater. Majority served in Europe, but thousands also

served in the Pacific and Asia. Primarily in noncombat roles as interpreters, interrogators, and in intel. But some also served in front line combat operations.

[Speck Tater]

18. Then in WWII we should have exempted Christian soldiers from fighting Christians. nt

[kenny blankenship]

33. Christyuns got no problem killing Christyuns

they do it all the time.

[paulsby]

37. muslims have no problem killing muslims

happens all the time

[snagglepuss]

43. DING. DING. DING. We have a winner.

Hammer meets nail. That really is the crux of the matter and why Hasan's position is such BS.

[Codeine]

44. Good thing Muslims never kill -- wait. nt

[Thothmes]

47. Neither do Muslims

Think Seljuk Turks and Ottomans. Their empires were built on conquest of other muslims. Certainly in Iraq and Afghanistan, Pakistan, Muslims seem relativley comfortable killing other Muslims.

[WeDidIt]

24. That desire alone has me nearly convinced he's a terrorist

I'm still not completely convinced he's not legally insane, but I'm damned close.

[malaise]

31. And many Xtian soldiers signed up to

kill Muslims. Check the graffiti on some of the bombs dropped on the Iraqi citizens.

Put simple - fuck all religion.

[Codeine]

45. On DU we're only allowed to fuck one religion,

all the rest of the stupid skydaddy nonsense has to be respected. :eyes:

[T Wolf]

48. Not me. I don't respect any of them, except maybe Druids. And only the Reform Druids who worship

bushes, ala Capt. Spaulding.

Not those bushes.