Kucinich's rationale on the HCR vote is like Hillary's on Iraq

[WonderGrunion]

IT DOESN'T FREAKIN' MATTER WHY THEY DID IT! They both voted with Republics against their constituents. Rationale is not important when the act is so grievously against everything that we are working for as a party. It's just as bad as Kid Rock in "I wanna be a cowboy" saying he wants to "open a strip club for all the right reasons". There are no right reasons here. 45,000 Americans die each year due to lack of health insurance and Dennis voted to allow that to continue. Just like Hillary voted to let over 1,000,000 Iraqi citizens die in Bush's War.

[TransitJohn]

1. No, it's the opposite

HRC's vote for the Iraq War Resolution went against the base, but with the centrist leadership. Kucinich's vote against the health care "reform" bill went with the base against the centrist leadership.

[WonderGrunion]

3. If unknown Stupak could get an ammendment passed

Kucinich could if he wanted to. Kucinich's vote continues the deaths of 45,000 Americans every year. Nothing he has done will stop that.

[Gman]

4. What base?

and who decides what the "base" is? No. Kucinich voted against meaningful health care reform and I'm sending a contribution to his opponent in the primary next year. We need this idiot gone.

[WonderGrunion]

48. I'm with you.

We need a Democrat that actually votes to stop the deaths of 45,000 Americans each year.

[BzaDem]

5. Most of the base isn't so idiotic as to think that the House HCR bill shouldn't pass.

Of course, there are some exceptions, but they don't represent most of the base.

[tblue]

10. Why is this so hard to understand? He voted his conscience. Reasons do matter.

Hillary probably voted her political ambition. Kucinich most likely knew it would pass without his vote and he really really really thinks this bill is a sham and a direct giveaway to the insurance industry. And that makes him a bad Democrat?


What's our goal here? To support the Party right it wrong or to pass good legislation?

[WonderGrunion]

19. Hopefully, his conscience can console the 45,000 Americans'

families that will grieve the loss of a loved one due to denial of health care. I expect betrayal from the blue dog caucus, but Dennis is supposed to be a liberal.

[TransitJohn]

21. Keep catapulting that propaganda

It's a mediocre talking point, and might convince one or two people to jump on your anti-Kuch bandwagon.

[WonderGrunion]

23. Was it propaganda when Anthony Weiner or Alan Grayson said it.

Real progressives try to save the downtrodden even if the bill doing it isn't perfect or goes far enough. There is still another day to try again.

[NorthCarolina]

65. Oh please, spare me your faux indignation

:puke:

[Vincardog]

2. Dennis voted after he was sure it would pass.Thus the "symbolic" vote it may be a little subtle

[WonderGrunion]

6. There is nothing subtle about 45,000 Americans dying each year

due to inability to pay for health care. Maybe he can read off his explanation at their wakes.

[Vincardog]

18. What exactly would you have done? Besides bitch and moan about what real progressives do?

[WonderGrunion]

22. Voted for the bill and start work on a new one that addresses the failings

of this bill. If Dennis were captain of the Titanic, he never would have launched lifeboats because he couldn't rescue everyone.

[Vincardog]

43. What would the other DLC bots have done?

[WonderGrunion]

45. Talk about propaganda....

Every member of the progressive caucus voted for this bill. EVERY member EXCEPT Kucinich. And this isn't the first time he has voted against measures that progressives support.

Dennis is the odd man out here.

[frylock]

50. they would've ensured that they're corporate buddies secured a place on the lifeboats

[WonderGrunion]

52. Which is why the DLC sucks too.

It does not buy Dennis a pass. He fucked up on this vote. Every other progressive voted for the bill.

[Desertrose]

20. Dude...the bill PASSED the house,OK?

Dennis' vote didn't affect that outcome. Will it pass the senate and do you think their bill will be the same, that they won't make changes? Would this be Dennis's fault too?

So Dennis Kucinich is somehow to blame for 45000 deaths because of our horrible health insurance? Never mind he wants single payer healthcare for everyone to eliminate this problem FOR EVERYONE, not just the ones who can afford it? Your logic is faulty.

[WonderGrunion]

25. I'm pissed off from the threads here lionizing Kucinich for his vote

He voted wrong. His position, if it prevailed, would continue the deaths of 45,000 Americans a year. Maybe he wants them to just "Die Quickly" like Grayson said the Republics want.

[rudy23]

32. I've seen more threads from DLC bots trying to quell Progressives' voices on this horrible bill

You guys are trying to do damage control, and you're threatening to brand us the way you're branding Dennis if we don't fall in line with Obama on this bill.

[WonderGrunion]

37. Were Weiner and Grayson quelled? Are they sellouts?

Every other progressive in the house voted for this bill. Dennis voted to continue the deaths of 45,000 Americans a year by denying them health access.

[Echo In Light]

39. +1

[Vincardog]

74. +1 I Stand With Dennis Kucinich

[ProleNoMore]

7. Dennis Explains Himself Here - Have You Watched?

http://www.democracynow.org/2009/11/9/house_passes_healthcare_bill_with_amendment

[WonderGrunion]

9. Cool, maybe he can speak those words at the eulogies

of the 45,000 Amercians that would die this year for him to vote his conscience. Hillary gave an explanation for her war vote too. It didn't change the fact that I would never vote for her again.

[ProleNoMore]

16. You Are Entitled To Your Position And Opinion - Not All Agree With You

eom

[WonderGrunion]

29. Thank you

Not everyone agrees with the Dennis defenders either. And not because we are DLC.

[tblue]

17. Oy gevalt. You have way more energy for this than I do. You win the Mad Prize.

Congrats.

[WonderGrunion]

30. I gladly accept it.

Although Kucinich deserves it more. I won't be voting any time soon to kill 45,000 Americans because of vanity and ego like Dennis did.

[HamdenRice]

8. Point of information: I could imagine a good reason to open a strip club

Back in the 90s, in NYC there was a neo-Burlesque movement in the arts, and some woman centered neo-Burlesque venues were created.

It's not impossible to rationalize, ya know -- unlike voting against health care reform.

[WonderGrunion]

11. I'm pretty sure Kid Rock isn't a patron of the arts like that

Kucinich, however, claims to be a progressive but voted to continue killing 45,000 Americans each year by denying them access to health care.

[HamdenRice]

15. No, Kid Rock was not talking about neo-Burlesque performance art! nt

[WonderGrunion]

55. And Dennis isn't being a progressive anymore

So the analogy works.

[redqueen]

12. Only if you ignore the fact that so many strippers

and prostitutes were sexually abused as children.

[HamdenRice]

13. They weren't actually strippers

They were performance artists acting in the roles of 1940s era Burlesque artists.

Just sayin' I could imagine it, but can't imagine voting against health care reform.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_World_Famous_Pontani_Sisters

[TransitJohn]

14. Yeah

This guy really hates the Democratic Party and isn't a team player. :sarcasm:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lv0smG7ptcM

[upi402]

24. The real problem with Kucinich is

that he has been right all the way along!

Corporate dems, and the lemmings who love them, just hate hearing about the cliff they're running toward.

This bill doesn't cure the disease, just masks a couple symptoms.

[TornadoTN]

26. Masks the symptoms and the corporate insurance cabals will get rich off of it

I want people to have the health care they need, but this bill concerns me that it is nothing more than a windfall for the insurance companies.

[TransitJohn]

27. Just like allopathic medicine.

Treat symptoms, not disease. Excellent analogy. :hi:

[WonderGrunion]

53. The disease is 45,000 Americans dying each year from lack of health care

All other progressives except Dennis voted for a cure. Dennis wants his cure to be grape flavored so he can swallow it easier.

[TransitJohn]

58. Your sauce is weak. Pathetic, really.

Keep catapulting your propaganda.

[WonderGrunion]

63. It's not propoganda that Dennis is the only "progressive"

to vote against HCR and allow 45,000 Americans to continue to die each year.

[WonderGrunion]

28. So Weiner and Grayson are the sellouts?

I choose to believe that an iffy liberal at best like Kucinich (who was pro-life until he had presidential aspirations) is in the wrong and not true liberals like Weiner and Grayson.

[upi402]

34. invalid poster

Kucinich an iffy liberal? lol

Do you really think we don't pay attention to this extent? There are but a handful of Dems who stand up against corporatism and the corporate takeover of the former Democratic Party. Kucinich is one. lol

[WonderGrunion]

38. When it comes to important issues, Dennis always votes with Repukes

The bulk of his liberal record is from procedural votes.

[winyanstaz]

70. Exactly...he was right then and he is correct now.

[rudy23]

31. Isn't it nice to know the people we helped elect are now throwing progressives + DK overboard?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6022082
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6972693

[WonderGrunion]

33. Real progressives, like Weiner and Grayson, try to stop 45,000 Americans

from dying each year due to lack of health coverage. Dennis is not a true progressive anymore when he makes a vote like that. It is equally abominable as Hillary's vote on Iraq.

[rudy23]

36. You're equally as abominable as Karl Rove for throwing your bullying fallacies around on here.

That goes double for whomever you represent.

[WonderGrunion]

40. I represent liberals that vote to uphold liberal ideals

Dennis voted against climate change, against health care, and continues to vote against liberals on all big issues. He is as bad as Lieberman.

[TransitJohn]

42. No, you don't

And you are now exacerbating your smearing of Dennis. Congratulations. Hope the DLC paycheck is worth it.

[WonderGrunion]

46. I'm not DLC. Every member of the progressive caucus voted for HCR

except Kucinich. He voted with the thieving blue dogs and the Repukes.

[WonderGrunion]

54. Read my fucking Journal and call me DLC

You're talking out of your ass to defend a stupid vote by Dennis.

[TransitJohn]

56. Wow. You came back an hour later to deny again.

A little delayed reaction poutrage?

[WonderGrunion]

57. I stewed on it and got more pissed as I thought about it.

Dennis fucked up. Deal with it.

[TransitJohn]

61. LOL

"Deal with it." :rofl: :rofl: :dunce:

[madrchsod]

35. be sure to save this and give it to his republican oppenent in the next election

i`m sure they will put it to good use

[WonderGrunion]

41. I'd rather he be primaried by a Democrat that votes FOR liberal causes

Like Grayson, Weiner and the rest of the congressional progressive caucus did.

[Beacool]

44. That's not what Hillary voted for and you know it.

Same for Kucinich.

:crazy:

[WonderGrunion]

47. Hillary lost my support forever when she voted for Iraq

Dennis did the same when he voted against Healthcare that will bring coverage to 96% of all Americans.

[Bluenorthwest]

49. Dennis and his supporters were backing Obama when Biden

and his supporters were running against him. And remember his constituents are the people in his district, not me, not you, not Obama, the people in his district. They have the only say on DK that matters, and they have made the DK choice many cycles running now. You don't like their choice, you should go tell them. I'm sure you will be warmly received!

[WonderGrunion]

51. I'm sure the approximately 100 constituents in his district

that will die each year from lack of health coverage and their families will understand Dennis' principled stance against HCR.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

59. Apple meet orange.

[WonderGrunion]

60. How so? Dennis and Hillary voted to let people die

Care to explain?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

62. Hillary voted for the sake of political expediency not out of principle.

Kucinich opposed a bill that is essentially a sellout to the right and the corporations.

Get it?

“Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost." --John Quincy Adams

"I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever, in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else, where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent. If I could not go to heaven but with a party, I would not go there at all." --Thomas Jefferson to Francis Hopkinson, 1789.

"Were parties here divided merely by a greediness for office,...to take a part with either would be unworthy of a reasonable or moral man." --Thomas Jefferson to William Branch Giles, 1795.

[WonderGrunion]

64. I insist that the "Why" doesn't matter.

It was a bad vote by Dennis and a sellout of the progressive caucus that voted for HCR.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

66. So, the "why" doesn't matter when they sold out women in the bill and caved to the insurance lobby?

I say it does matter.

[derby378]

67. The only ones who sold out were the fauxgressives who voted for Big Insurance

Kucinich always knew what the American people wanted out of health insurance reform. It's not his fault that Grayson and Weiner developed selective amnesia about the whole thing.

[WonderGrunion]

68. So it's all the other members of the progressive caucus that are fakes?

Where can I find your supplier for rose colored glasses?

[derby378]

73. Hey, it's not my fault that many self-identified progressives caved in

No real progressive would ever think of setting women's healthcare back 35 years by voting for a bill that included the Stupak amendment.

[winyanstaz]

69. Our party..right or wrong..is NOT right...

We hated it when the Republican neocons did it....
This bill stinks for women and for people in general..it is a hand out to the insurance companies...
And Dennis did NOT vote for Americans to die..he voted no because this is a BAD bill for America.

[WonderGrunion]

71. And somehow, every other member of the progressive caucus

missed that it was a bad bill? I just don't buy that. This "bad bill" will save the lives of thousands of Americans and improve the general health of millions of others. Voting against it is not a progressive stance.

[winyanstaz]

72. This is a bad bill

"The bill requires every American, with few exceptions, to carry health insurance. To enforce this individual mandate, the Senate Finance Committee created the excise tax as a penalty for people who don’t have insurance – and it can run as much as $3,800 a year per family.

The House bill also refers to the penalties for not carrying insurance as a tax. It calls for a “tax on individuals without acceptable health care coverage” and amends the tax code to implement it."

http://riverdaughter.wordpress.com/2009/11/09/on-a-new-form-of-indentured-servitude/

Not to mention that this bill denies women's civil rights.
Women are EQUAL human beings that deserve the right to determine what happens to their own bodies.
This bill also breaches the seperation of church and state.
This is a bad bill for America. WE can do much better.