Mixing religion, politics and private lives

[Ineeda]

Does anyone else wonder why the apocolypse-believing, end times-believing, 2012-believing, the-Earth-is-6000-years-old and men-rode-on-dinosaurs believing, my-God-is-the-only-way believing, global-warming denying and rapture-awaiting fundies fight so hard to control and stop Earthly progress? What do they care? They think we'll burn in their hell, so they should just leave us alone and let us burn. If they're so firm in their beliefs, they should step back, let their god take care of them and let us get on with the business of our lives. Their attempts at controlling private lives and the political arena is a clear indication that they don't really believe their own message. It's their Catch-22. :crazy:

[LiberalEsto]

1. You don't really expect lunatics to make SENSE?

If they're crazy, naturally they will think and act crazy.

:crazy:

[Ineeda]

2. Good point. What was I thinking? n/t

[kctim]

3. So mixing personal beliefs, politics and private lives

is wrong?

[Ineeda]

4. Yes, it's wrong to mix religious beliefs and politics.

Did you miss the point of my post?

[kctim]

5. Nope, didn't miss the point at all

it's just a hypocritacal point, that's all.
Religious beliefs are nothing more than personal beliefs, so I have to ask why its ok to push some personal beliefs but not others? I mean, if both sides are so firm in their beliefs, shouldn't they both just step back, let who they want take care of them and let the rest of us get on with the business of our lives? You do realize that BOTH sides use the political arena in their attempts to control private lives, right?

So tell me, why is it wrong for a religous person to use govt to force one to love or help his neighbor because his God tells him its the right thing to do, but ok for a non-religious person to use govt to force one to love or help his neighbor because they personally believe its the right thing to do?

[Ineeda]

6. Name one thing that the government forces on religious people versus the non-religious.

And religious beliefs go beyond personal beliefs. Religious dogma has absolutely no place in government, unless you want a theocracy. In addition, if one is truly, genuinely religious, (especially, but not limited to, Christian) no one and no entity such as government would have to force "one to love or help his neighbor." The "help" the religious want to force on others is not wanted or needed, thanks anyway.

[kctim]

8. You avoid the question

which was why is it ok to force beliefs onto others as long as the word religion is not in the equation?

Ones personal beliefs are derived from ones religious beliefs, or lack of religious beliefs. I am an atheist, so my belief to help my neighbor comes from myself, where as my neighbor is very religious and believes his belief to help his neighbor comes from what God has said. If we both want to help, why am I right and he wrong?

Of course no entity has to force a religious person to love their neighbor, and seeing how they are the most charitable, I don't think most of them have a problem with it. But why is help as you see it, better than help as they see it? Because theirs is based on their religion?

[Ineeda]

11. Obviously neither the helpful atheist nor the helpful religious person is wrong.

What is absolutely wrong is the government being involved. I don't want my government to impose any religious behavior or beliefs or to prohibit them. Which is exactly my argument. Again I'll ask. What has the government forced on the religious?

[kctim]

13. If it is absolutely wrong for govt to be involved

then what validates govt run social programs? You don't want your govt to impose any religious behavior or beliefs or to prohibit them, but are you not imposing what you personally believe to be the proper behavior by supporting govt run social programs and how they are funded? Are you not telling people they must believe as you do and support it? Are you not prohibiting them from believing differently and expressing their own beliefs?

Your argument is that it is wrong for somebody to use govt to push their personal beliefs if those beliefs are founded in religion, and my point is that that is no different than using govt to push personal beliefs not founded in religion.

I am not a religious person so there is no way I can judge how or why a religious person believes the govt has forced something onto them.

[Ineeda]

14. Governmental social programs are not religious programs.

I am absolutely not telling anyone what to believe or not believe, and I fully support people expressing whatever beliefs or non-beliefs they want. How can anyone "tell" someone what to believe? One either believes something or they don't. If the government told you to believe in god, despite being an atheist as you say, you would believe? I am not "pushing" anything (except the removal of anything that even hints at religion in our government.) That includes, BTW, the removal of "In God We Trust" and "under God", both of which were pushed by an evangelical zealot and added to our culture in the 50's, during the anti-Communist Joe McCarthy era.

[The2ndWheel]

15. No more taxes with threat of penalty if they're not paid?

That at least hints at religion(since religion isn't special, and simply another form of organization). Either pay our taxes, or go to jail/pay a fine. Believe in our god, or go to hell/we'll find a way to make you believe.

[Ineeda]

16. LOL Funny analogy.

[kctim]

17. Are they not based on the same belief of helping those who need help?

And aren't those govt social programs primarily created by those who held or hold religious beliefs?

Of course nobody can tell another person WHAT to believe, but are we not being told how to believe when we are forced to support beliefs we do not wish to? Of course we are, and it does not make one bit of difference where those beliefs come from either.

Eh, you can fight to have those mere words removed if you wish, I have better things to do. I have never looked at money and said "geez, I need to pray." In fact, I don't care what it looks like just as long as I can still use it. Besides, it should actually say "In Govt We Trust," those bastards take more of it than this God guy does.

[Ineeda]

18. Social programs are based on recognizing and addressing human need,

regardless of the religious beliefs of those who recognize those needs or those who have those needs. "Of course nobody can tell another person WHAT to believe, but are we not being told how to believe when we are forced to support beliefs we do not wish to? Of course we are, and it does not make one bit of difference where those beliefs come from either." Give me an example of a belief not based on religion that we are forced to support. Oh and your "Eh, you can fight to have those mere words removed if you wish, I have better things to do." tells me that you can't be bothered to stand up for your 'atheist' principles.

[kctim]

20. Social programs are based on the personal belief

that says to help those who are needy. Personal beliefs shape who is recognized as needing help and it is personal beliefs that encourage how people address the situation. Whether those beliefs come from a rock, a book or out of thin air, they are personal beliefs that not all hold and therefore must be forced upon others.
Religion is nothing but a scapegoat where the extremes are used in order to justify the others methods.

An example? Welfare, social security and soon, single-payer healthcare. MANY people hold personal beliefs that welfare creates dependency and that a dependent populace is bad for the country. MANY people believe they should be in charge of their own retirement and that the way social security is used for is pointless. The prefer it to be a safety-net for those who actually need it.
There are so many different personal beliefs on everything and other than politics, I just don't see why its ok to force some but not for others.

Stand up for my atheist principles? How in the hell do I do that when I don't believe in anything? Should I really be so trivial and childish as to allow a simple word or symbol bother or offend me? Come on. To be completely honest, I wouldn't give a crap if there was some nutball wiccan or some greenpeace Earth first tool on money as long as I had the freedom and could still spend it.

[Ineeda]

21. AHA. There we have it.

"...nutball wiccan or some greenpeace Earth first tool..." Your true colors are finally revealed and your bias is showing, dear. In addition to the above quote, you also imply that atheists don't have principles. Atheists have self-determined principles, ones that no pastor, minister, priest or pope tells them to have. You're no more an atheist than Jerry Falwell. BTW, all of those programs you mention in your post are social programs, not religious ones. No decent human being has to be told when another human being is in need. They just have to open their eyes and their hearts - not their bibles.

[kctim]

23. Aha?

Please go back and read our little debate trail we have left and this time, please try a little harder to comprehend. I will try to make it a little clearer.
You state you do not want religious beliefs forced upon you and I mention how religious beliefs are nothing more than personal beliefs. I ask why it is wrong for someone to force their beliefs onto others if they think a God tells them it is the right thing to do, but ok for you to force the same beliefs onto others, not because of a God, but because you have opened your eyes and heart? Not a hard question to answer.

One's personal beliefs do not matter to me and to be quite honest, I don't care, nor does it bother me if somebody worships nature, mother Earth, a God or a freaking whale. I know its hard for some of you to understand, but I really do not believe that I know what is best for another or that they should live their life according to what I believe.
The only "true colors" being revealed are the ones you need to see in order to avoid the truth.

The ONLY principles ahteists have are personal ones we have allowed ourselves to embrace on a non-religious level. Some are nuts who can't stand even the sight of the word God and some of us believe in live and let live. The word God on our currency is NOT going to harm anyone and others saying the words under God in our pledge is NOT going to make us say it or believe it. Those are trivial matters in a time when so much more really does matter. So, with all due respect, you keep fighting against those words and I'll just stick with gay marriage rights thank you very much.

Of course those are social programs and not religious ones, but you miss the point completely, sigh. Those social programs are founded on personal beliefs and those beliefs are forced upon others in the same way you believe personal beliefs are forced upon you by the religious. The two sides are striving for the same goal, but because the methods to reach that goal are a little different, they fight amongst themselves because their way is the only right way. That is nothing put petty politics.

I am no more an atheist than Falwell? Why is that? Because I do not conform to what you believe an atheist should be? Contrary to what you think, atheism is NOT a religion and those who speak of it as a religion are just as ridiculous as the fundies who tell others they are no Christian.

[valerief]

22. Guess you're not a believer in the concept of the commons, are you?

Too founding fatherish for you.

[kctim]

24. Not you too

We are talking about personal beliefs in general and how it is that some believe it is ok to force those beliefs onto others but not for others to force their beliefs onto them. We are not talking about where we stand on issues nor have I mentioned where I stand on any issue.

[valerief]

19. Whoa!

Of course no entity has to force a religious person to love their neighbor, and seeing how they are the most charitable,

Where did this unfactoid come from?

You referring to that religious dad who ran over his daughter for being too Western? Religion.
I'd look up more, but you get my drift.

[kctim]

25. No

I am refering to the study that showed religious people give more of their time and money to charitable causes than the rest of us do.

[valerief]

26. What study? nt

[Ineeda]

7. Waiting patiently....

[The2ndWheel]

9. Organization

Any organized entity, be it religion, or the state, etc, wants to mold the world into it's own image.

http://www.context.org/ICLIB/IC07/Schmoklr.htm

[TheKentuckian]

10. Everyone's personal beliefs be they religious or otherwise play a part in their politics

the thing is arguments and law must be translated from whatever personal belief to common secular language.

If you can't make your case without referring to a religious document then it has no place in the political discourse.

[Ineeda]

12. Exactly. n/t