Whooooooo! Dr. Nancy Snyderman from MSNBC isn't happy about the Stupak amendment:

[Are_grits_groceries]

<snip>
Snyderman: Kelly, you know what I find so infuriating about this? I mean, absolutely infuriating? And this isn't about being pro-choice or pro-abortion or any of the hot button lingo. We know women pay more for insurance than men. We know women are restricted in the states. And now it's basically, if you're a 50 year old woman and you're in a monogamous relationship you suddenly find yourself pregnant, you better know that have an abortion rider in order to access health care that you thought you had? It is one more pressure on women. I mean, I'm surprised that frankly there isn't more outrage over the fact that ...this isn't fair!
<snip>
Snyderman: A white man deciding a woman's…… a woman's responsibility in her own procreation. I mean I ... I find it infuriating. I mean, I really think it doesn't matter what side of the abortion issue or pro-choice issue you're on, the fact that they are now making health care harder and harder for women to navigate the system. I think it's outrageous—just outrageous. Kelly O'Donnell, thank you so much.

And folks it's not about abortion. It really is about one more burden for women navigating the health care system. Before I blow my top, time to turn to Monica Novotny at the news desk. Monica, get me out of here.
<snip>
http://crooksandliars.com/

I hope she does blow her top. She was damn close today.

[OnceUponTimeOnTheNet]

1. K&R.

[Are_grits_groceries]

2. I have never heard her

remotely this upset. If they can set her off, there's trouble ahead.

[customerserviceguy]

3. Anybody here know any 50 year old women

who got pregnant without medical intervention?

If you're in a monogamous relationship with someone of a similar age, and you don't want kids, then make sure that one of you has had the necessary surgical intervention to prevent something from happening.

[Le Taz Hot]

5. Ah, another man without a clue

and trying to dictate what a woman does or does not do with her reproductive system. Quelle surprise. :eyes: Maybe someday you'll get it, sport. Meanwhile, ask you mom. Maybe she can offer you enlightenment on the subject.

[customerserviceguy]

24. I'm just pointing out the ridiculousness of Dr.Synderman's example

Perhaps she should have refered to a thirty year old to make her point.

[Hekate]

40. 50 y.o. is the better example in this case: on the cusp of menopause, responsible, settled down...

By the way, when I had an ultrasound as part of my annual gyn exam at the age of 52, the nurse found a ripened egg follicle just hangin' out in there. Sometimes Mother Nature plays little jokes on us women. Sometimes the joke isn't funny. My mother's generation referred to "change-of-life babies" -- as in "Isn't it sad: that Downs Syndrome child was my neighbor's change-of-life baby."

The MEN in Congress just effing do not get it. We're full human beings; why should we pay more for health insurance? We still get paid less than men; why should we pay more for life's necessities? We bear the children of men, we take care of the children of men, we feed and clothe and take the children of men to the doctor; why should we be paying more for health care?

As you are a Democratic man, I assume you are open to being educated about this matter, unlike the Republicans in Congress.

Hekate

[JerseygirlCT]

68. Yes. It's absolutely

a time for that confusion - it's hard to tell if you're dealing with the onset of menopause, or a pregnancy. Hormones are all over the place, and it makes it tough to sort out the usual signals.

A 50 yo woman was a great example.

[dugaresa]

44. just because some women are infertile or have problems conceiving don't think there aren't women out

there "blessed" with hyper fertility and who stay fertile until their 50's. My mother was one of them. She got a regular period until at least 56. Makes me cry to think it will happen to me.

i know more than a few women in their late 40's surprised by pregnancies who along with their husbands opted for abortion.

Mother nature plays nasty tricks on women. Women stop getting their period, think they are safe and out of the blue the engine starts up let's say 3 years later and voila surprise pregnancy.

[joeybee12]

45. Yeah, these damn women better not make mistakes, because while humans

make mistakes, we're not gonna make any exceptions for women. They had better prepare for every eventuality.

[JerseygirlCT]

67. +1 nt

[moc]

6. Yes, a very good friend of mine got pg when she was 51-52. No medical intervention.

Yes, she terminated the pregnancy.

Clueless you are indeed.

[Ignis]

23. And for taking the time to answer, you receive:

*crickets*

[customerserviceguy]

25. That's the first example I've heard of

but like I said above, wouldn't it have made more sense for Dr. Snyderman to have used an age example that was more appropriate to the childbearing years?

[saracat]

39. Are you dense? She gave a very good example as a 50 year old woman isn't likely to

plan ahead thinking she could get pregnant. but it happens a lot. They are called change of life babies. my husband;s mother was 50 when she had him. No intervention either.

[customerserviceguy]

70. I'd guess that they happened a LOT more

at the time when your husband was born, and people tried to have all the children they could bear. It just doesn't happen as often these days.

[PuraVidaDreamin]

7. I'm a nurse who works with gyn pts.

It happens! Please educate yourself

[customerserviceguy]

26. I don't have your experience

and appreciate the benefit of your knowledge. But aren't most couples in committed relationships generally done with childbearing activities at that age? What's wrong with having the man in the couple get a vasectomy to take care of the possibility?

[dugaresa]

46. because they think they are safe, because when you go through the change

you can stop getting a period for months if not a year. You pretty much assume "it's over" and voila out of the blue you will be sitting on your sofa and have a rush of blood surprise you and "it's back again".

some women get pregnant before that rush happens. Others have to buy a new couch, I had a good friend call me crying about such an incident. She just bought new furniture because her kids were out of college and she and her husband thought, "whew empty nest, let's get some nice stuff" and you can imagine her absolute horror at what happened.

[gkhouston]

51. +1. Supposedly, once a year of no periods goes by, you're "safe", but it ain't necessarily so.

I went to school with more than a few change of life babies. I'm pushing 50 myself, and praying for menopause to come along so my migraines will ease up but I've got a sister seven years older than me telling me not to hold my breath. :banghead:

[trumad]

9. Dumb ass

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

13. I disagree! I think "dumbass" is one word. Other than that, +1

[customerserviceguy]

28. Well thought out argument there

Care to elaborate?

Or perhaps you think that fiftysomethings have a serious risk of this? Or that they are in a position to possibly want more children at that age, unless they are fundies who wouldn't abort anyway?

[ecstatic]

11. I could see it happening to someone who assumed

she was sterile/unable to conceive.

[customerserviceguy]

29. My point (that seems to have been missed) is that if it is at all a possibility

then the couple should take some sort of precaution that is final and foolproof. It's simple: you and your spouse/partner are fifty, and you don't want to raise kids until you're old enough for full Social Security benefits, then you do something about it.

[gkhouston]

52. It's neither final nor foolproof. Surgical sterilization has a small but nonzero failure rate.

Also, potentially some side effects, so if you're in your forties when you finish having your family, surgery isn't that appealing a "solution".

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

12. Yes. (Bonus points for counseling surgery as contraception. That's extra cute.)

[customerserviceguy]

30. Aren't vasectomy and tubal ligation considered contraception

for those who see themselves beyond childbearing years? They're generally foolproof, and in the case of vasectomy, practically risk free.

[leftynyc]

15. Is 47 close enough

A friend of mine is expecting her 6th child (after 5 daughters, the youngest being 14). Married and monogamous and pregnancy a complete suprise.

[customerserviceguy]

32. May I hazard a guess

that with five kids, she's not likely to be looking at an elective choice of an abortion anyway? Anybody who wanted to have that many kids probably doesn't mind having more if they feel that some deity has "provided" them.

[leftynyc]

47. She's Catholic

but I think it had more to do with her finding out she was pregnant the same day her mother died. She is deicdedly pro choice as a political view - she wasn't looking to get pregnant but she and her husband can well afford another child.

[Marlana]

18. Elizabeth Edwards was 51 when she had Jack.

She hasn't said if she used any fertility treatments.

Annie Leibovitz was 52 when she had her daughter.

A woman named Aracelia Garcia had triplets (with no hormone treatment) in 1999 at the age of 54.

Wikipedia has more examples http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pregnancy_over_age_50">here.

It is rare, but it happens.

[customerserviceguy]

33. Good examples

and also a good reason to use sterilization as a conception control method if you're not still in the baby-making game. Clearly, Elizabeth Edwards was in a relationship where another child was desired, since she and John Edwards didn't have kids in their earlier years, like most couples do.

[jsamuel]

50. not true

They had 2 kids in their early years. One of them, Wade, died in a car accident. They then wanted to have kids again even though they were much older. Their oldest daughter is now in her upper 20's (or there about).

[customerserviceguy]

72. You're right, I forgot about Wade

and I never did see any children other than the smaller ones who were always on the campaign trail. I guess I really didn't follow Edwards very much, he was not my pick for the 2008 nomination.

Good catch there. But many other couples do start their families late in the game for whatever reasons. Many others just decide to take steps to prevent it because they realize that they don't want to spend middle age raising small children who will be dependent on them until they are near retirement age.

[Ilsa]

19. Happens all the time. Their periods become rare and they think they

aren't ovulating. They believe they have become infertile due to menopause.

Yes, they need to educate themselves on the riskiness, but apparently, you do too.

[customerserviceguy]

34. I have been educated here by the examples given

but I think we can all agree that they are rare, and I use that reason to state that Dr. Snyderman probably used that age as a poor example. She could have easily used a 40 year old as one that many more people might relate to.

[Jax]

56. "I think we can all agree they are rare" bullshit

that is what YOU get for thinking. Don't lump me in with your anti woman right wing spew.

Not surprised at your posts on this at all...

:puke:

Alyce

[customerserviceguy]

71. How does my lack of knowledge and experience on this subject

make me right wing? I'm in my early fifties myself, I have never known any contemporaries who have been pregnant in the last few years. Part of that might be that they have had abortions, and never said anything, that would certainly explain my lack of knowledge.

One of the things we do here is to educate each other, all of us have our own set of life experiences, and we can benefit from sharing those with each other. If asking a question and responding to the answer makes me right wing, then I guess those who never inquire and think they know it all are automatically left wing, correct?

[Lars39]

22. Have you never heard of late in life babies?

It happens.

[customerserviceguy]

35. From the responses I have read here

I have indeed learned some things. To all above who gave polite responses, thank you. To those who gave less than polite ones, good luck convincing the people around you of your point.

[Darth_Kitten]

43. Uh, yes, as a matter of fact.

ANY pre-menopausal women can get pregnant. In some societies, getting pregnant at 50 is actually not a big deal. :eyes:

[undeterred]

48. You need to take a bath in hot oil.

Really hot.

[customerserviceguy]

49. Ah, yes, the usual man bashing that takes place

every time this topic comes up, and a guy doesn't express the exact politically correct view of the most radical female to pop in on the subject.

I wonder how long a post would last, say for instance, on a military topic, if a man just suggested that "women don't get why we need to fight" with half the vitriol that I've seen here on just this thread...

[undeterred]

53. Your question showed your ignorance and insensitivity.

[customerserviceguy]

54. I'll admit the ignorance

and I did so under the posts that sought to politely enlighten me.

The "insensitivity" is just my amazement that Dr. Snyderman would use an example that was not typical of most people's experience.

[undeterred]

62. What is "most peoples experience"?

As you learned, there are unwanted, surprise pregnancies at the end of a womans fertile years. It seems to me that an unwanted late pregnancy at 50 is more likely to raise the issue of abortion than an unwanted pregnancy at 30.

[customerserviceguy]

63. I had never known one

and it took experienced people (like an OB/GYN nurse, who sees lots of pregnant women) to point that out to me. There just are not that many cases of it.

She probably should have used the age of 40, there are far more people who would have related to it.

[fascisthunter]

55. ahhhh....

on ignore.

[arthritisR_US]

57. I do and her husband had had a vasectomy which they found later his

wee tubes had reinstated themselves, it does happen. Suspend your judgements for a moment please.

[csziggy]

58. Even with surgical intervention, there is a 1 in 100 chance of pregnancy

http://www.plannedparenthood.org/health-topics/birth-control/birth-control-effectiveness-chart-22710.htm

I had a tubal ligation in 1977. In the late 90s there were reports of women who had gotten the same procedure at about the same time getting pregnant. They generally did not realize they were pregnant until fairly well along since at their ages (mid to late 40s into their 50s) they assumed they were going through menopause. That scared the hell out of me - I never wanted children and when other forms of birth control were dangerous for me medicall AND failed, I elected to "make sure" I would not have a child. The idea that so much later in life I could still end up pregnant was panic inducing.

In 2002, I made completely sure - I had a hyterectomy and had my ovaries removed. Medically, it was called for because of other reasons, but I was so relieved to not have to worry any longer about getting pregnant.

As for your original question, I went to high school with a girl who had a little sister born the year we were in twelfth grade. LaDonna had been a late child - her little sister was born when her mother was 52. No medical intervention - this was in the late 60s before all the fancy ways to help infertile couples were developed. In fact, it was not a desired pregnancy at all - LaDonna had to drop her plans to go to college because of the expense of another child to the family.

[Ripley]

59. Close to 50% of US abortions are performed on women near 50 years old

who thought they had already gone through menopause. I don't have the time to find the link.

So why don't you take your ignorant ass misogynistic statements and shove it.

[customerserviceguy]

64. That is a stunning "statistic" if I ever heard one

and yes, it would require a reliable link.

[Ripley]

66. one

[customerserviceguy]

69. You're misreading that chart

All it shows is the cumulative numbers, as time has gone on. When you look at the orange line representing 2008, and you see that peak around the age of fifty (on the horizontal axis) you are seeing that somewhere between 40 and 45 percent of women at that age have had an abortion at some time in their lives. It probably occurred in their teens or twenties, abortion was legal when women of that age were in those decades.

Want further proof that you've misread the chart? You see the right hand side of that orange line, where it crosses the 5% mark? It means that for women between the age of 70 and 75, five percent say they have had abortions. When Roe vs. Wade became the law of the land, those women were about 35, and after that point, they probably didn't get an unwanted pregnancy that they would have aborted.

Reading the chart your way would mean that five percent of abortions are being done on women who are between the ages of 70 and 75. Try again.

[Neecy]

61. I do.

She was actually 49, but it *does* happen.

She and her husband decided that she'd carry the child to term, but it was quite a shock for them.

[customerserviceguy]

65. Again, as I have said before

I have indeed been educated about this. However, using the example of a 40 year old versus a 50 year old would have indeed made the comment more relevant to a greater number of people. I simply take Dr. Snyderman to task for not thinking as clearly as she usually does when she speaks.

Perhaps she was sputtering mad, which is what a lot of posters here are when they assume that I am misogynistic just because I question something when the topic is abortion, and it's obvious from my username that I am male.

[Le Taz Hot]

4. There were 3 women on Joy Behar's show

last night. One of them was from NARAL and I can't remember who the two others were. Anyway, all four of them were P-I-S-S-E-D OFF! I don't think these guys have a clue the wrath they just unleashed! It's been WAAAAYYYY too long that women could unite on the same issue. I think ERA was the last time. I also saw Barbara Boxer on TV vowing to get this piece of shit rider out of the bill. The bad news? Ben NELSON (R/D-Sellout) is going to put the same rider into the Senate version.

[newfie11]

8. About that POS Ben Nelson

Every time I send that sucker an email about his stupidity he replies addressed to my husband, never to me. I have no idea how he even got my husbands name as I sign only with my name. I certainly hope on the next election people around here wise up and vote his sorry ass out.

[femrap]

36. I agree with you 100%....

Joy Behar has her own show??? Oh, I love her, but stopped watching The View because I just couldn't bare that Elizabeth thing. Where is Joy's show?

I'm still very pissed about the ERA....again the fucking religions ended that. Even the Christians worked with the non-Christians on that one!

"Clipped Balls. Problem Solved."

[eppur_se_muova]

38. On CNN, 9 PM EST, also http://joybehar.blogs.cnn.com/

http://joybehar.blogs.cnn.com/

[femrap]

42. Thanks....I googled her after I asked you

(duh) and caught her last night interviewing Carrie Fisher. Joy rocks. She makes me laugh.

[ecstatic]

10. It is infuriating. We pay 2 to 3 times more than men

and they still want us to jump through hoops. I got my annual increase notice again from BCBS (an increase of 100 dollars this time!!!) and I'm considering just dropping them altogether until healthcare reform is passed. It's not right and hopefully that discrimination will be addressed sometime soon.

[FBaggins]

14. Can you expand on that?

I've never seen health insurance premiums impacted by gender. Maybe it has something to do with purchasing insurance without an employer pool?

Do women really pay 2-3 times what men do (and no... I don't mean for dry cleaning) ?

[ecstatic]

20. I use Individual insurance. Next time they send a flyer to your house,

check out the little chart where they give the estimated rate based on age and gender.

[FBaggins]

21. Thanks.

I just went online for a quote and sure enough... you female types were more expensive.

It was more like 20-30% rather than 2-3 times as much... so maybe you should shop around?

[bridgit]

16. Separate Church & State Now! Shutdown C Street!

And The Weasel-Men That Run It!

[populistdriven]

17. Let Bart know what you think of him

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6979368&mesg_id=6979368

[SoCalDem]

27. Bart doesn't care what people think of him...except for the

people who give him money for campaigns, and for the simple majority he needs to get re-elected from his district

[annabanana]

31. Neither is any other clear thinking woman. . .n/t

[SagefemmeCollective]

37. There is a LOT of outrage!

the only thing she is wrong about...

I think the thing that is so outrageous is that it was so unexpected, truly.

Hopefully, Stupak will not only be the new swear word, but also a wake-up call.

[Hekate]

41. KnR. Good for her. This is our homegrown version of the global gag order, and it stinks.

:grr: I want to see American women go :nuke: in large numbers.

Hekate

[Neecy]

60. I like her.

She's pretty no-nonsense, and she's not afraid to call bullshit on something.