'Do only Muslims commit crimes?'

[Jackeens]

Madam, – Two tragic shootings in the United States were reported in the same article (World News, November 6th). One concerned the shooting of people at a military base in Texas; the other at an office building in Florida. Updates on these stories point out that the suspect in the Texas incident was a Muslim. The other suspect’s religion is not mentioned. It never seems to be reported that a Christian committed an act of violence. Are we to assume that only Muslims commit crimes? – Yours, etc,

NICOLAS JOHNSON,

Iveagh Gardens,

Dublin 12.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/letters/2009/1110/1224258476972.html

[valerief]

1. Muslim is the new black, I guess.

A black perp's color is always noted in a news story (or it used to always be) but a white perp's color never is (or was).

(I realize that many Muslims are black, too.)

[intheflow]

40. Sad but true.

:(

[Beacho]

45. Also the new 'Commie'

I noticed a lot of RW mouth breathers love putting their old paranoia propaganda back into play since 911

[Brigid]

90. Apparently so.

:(

[Scurrilous]

2. K & R

:thumbsup:

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

3. Nothing like the Irish lecturing people on religious violence.

[seabeyond]

6. isnt that the truth. good point. nt

[Jackeens]

10. Oh seabeyond, I thought you of all people were WAY better than comments like that! n/t

[seabeyond]

15. it was ironic. of all countries. cool for the kid. proud of him. and was thinking

how cool it was a kid would say that. thought his comment excellent, as i told my hubby just now the ironic nature of it.....ok

i hold my head down in shame.

i just didnt catch it...

sigh

bad, bad

thanks for the reminder

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

23. The only one who understands. Very wise.

[Jackeens]

34. “Humour brings insight and tolerance. Irony brings a deeper and less friendly understanding.”

One of the smarter quotes of our time. :-)

[seabeyond]

56. i will argue that quote. who said it? humor today is used to be mean and less than

insightful

irony, deeper, but ya, probably not so friendly.

a comendian said it, huh?

andrew dice clay? lol

[marmar]

7. And what does that have to do with his point?

:wtf:

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

8. That the Irish have no business lecturing people on religious discrimination and violence.

[marmar]

11. Whatever. If he's got a point, he's got a point.....

..... and perhaps this writer had no connection to Ireland's history of religious discrimination, n'est-ce pas?

[Jackeens]

12. Where was the FUCKING lecture? It was a letter from an Irish person criticising an Irish newspaper..

...for its reporting on the two incidents.

Damn right there's been religious discrimination in Ireland over the years - maybe that's why we recognise ignorance like yours when we see it.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

13. You're funny. I like you.

[keroro gunsou]

66. um... yeah...

FireMedicDave:

not to lecture you or anything about Irish history, but, the vast majority of the religious discrimination was done by the English, which carried over to the next generation born in Ireland, and continues to this day, albeit in a more muted way.

That said, the Irish are in a unique position to comment on the nature of religious discrimination, have suffered through it for many centuries.

Who would you rather have lecture you about the job that an EMT does? an actual EMT or an accountant?

The closer one is to the subject matter, the better off they are at recognizing the obvious parallels between two separate or dissimiliar instances.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

88. Jackeens and I are all settled on things. My apologies if I have offended you also.

I'm Scottish and Irish. I truly meant no offense.

[keroro gunsou]

89. it's ok

drunken sheep fucker that you are :evilgrin:

[barbtries]

17. that's like saying that i have no business lecturing

people on religious discrimination and (especially) violence, because i'm american. i mean the USA has a terribly violent and discriminatory past. every irish person is not a violent, religiously discriminating person. my bet is that the writer, who makes an excellent point imo, is not a violent discriminator.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

20. You don't.

[barbtries]

22. for the reasons stated?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

25. I don't think we (Americans) have any business lecturing anyone on discrimination of any kind.

[barbtries]

27. i gotta go to sleep

or i would pursue this further. i believe it's worth it to try the raising of consciousness and work against discrimination. gotta start somewhere. i thought the letter in the OP was just that.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

30. Night. Sleep well.

[Electric Monk]

72. That means you'll stop posting about guns now, because you have experience with them?

WOOHOO!!!

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

81. If guns and the 2nd Amendment were things to be ashamed of I might.

[Maraya1969]

18. And we Americans do? The point is some of us are not ignorant.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

21. I missed where I said that. Care to point it out.

[ZombieHorde]

33. An argument should stand on its own merits or lack thereof, regardless of the source.

The argument made in the OP would be neither less true nor more true if it was made by anyone else.

Side note: In our poor economy, I find your continued advocacy for firing Medic Dave to be in bad taste and lacking compassion.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

35. and I am a union member.

[LeftishBrit]

84. Perhaps they are the ones who do have the most right?

Not all or most Irish people are religiously violent if that is what you are implying!!! But most *have* grown up under the shadow of religious violence - from Christians.

That's like saying that people in the Arctic have no business lecturing anyone about cold weather.

[Name removed]

9. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[seabeyond]

19. it was a joke. wasnt it a joke. ??? nt

[Rabrrrrrr]

24. The letter write wasn't saying anything about violence, but about ignorant reporting.

Specifically that when a Muslim does violence, the guy's religion gets mentioned.

But when a Christian does it, the religion doesn't get attacked to it.

Open your eyes and read, dude.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

26. It's completely impossible that religion had anything to do with the murders at Ft. Hood eh?

[Rabrrrrrr]

43. You're not getting it at all - the letter is asking/pointing out that the media

only care about a criminal's religion if it isn't Christianity.

It's a damnation of REPORTERS and is utterly tangential to the Ft. Hoodl, or any other, crimes.

The issue at hand is - why does the media only report a criminal's religion when that religion is something other than Christian?

Same question can be asked about why it's only non-white folk who get their race added into the descriptions in the media as well.

I don't know what bug got up your ass that you have to spin this into something that it isn't, but it's pretty fucking silly and makes you look like a fool.

If you want to disagree with the letter writer, at least have the integrity to disagree with what they letter actually said instead of making shit up.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

50. I'm guessing when Dr. Tiller was shot they delved into the shooters political and religious views.

Since they may have been relevant to the story.

[Rabrrrrrr]

54. Not anywhere near the way they do with non-Christian religious people

Really, it's pretty obvious.

Doesn't take a rocket to know this - I've noticed it for more than 20 years. Surely you must have caught on at some point to the religious bias in media?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

57. Are you referring to cults Koresh etc.?

[Rabrrrrrr]

59. No, I'm referring to generalities and trends. You keep wanting to pigenhole in specifics.

Try to stay within the genre, please.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

61. Sorry I couldn't think of any examples before 9/11.

[paulsby]

80. that;'s complete rubbish. look at abortion clinic bombings and shootings

the media is plenty ready to remark on people's religion when it's christianity and highly relevant.

just like they do with islam. it's highly relevant in the ft. hood shooting.

[PVnRT]

85. How do you know it's not relevant to the Orlando shootings?

[paulsby]

87. how do you know it IS

for all i know, bigfoot and the illuminati are relevant to the orlando shootings

if your argument is that they didn't mention religion in the orlando shootings, therefore religion in that case is relevant, then you are being absurd.

the VAST majority of murders, they never mention religion.

[onehandle]

29. Grandpa Simpson: 'The last time the meteors came, we thought the sky was on fire.'

'Naturally, we blamed the Irish. We hanged more ‘n a few.'

Grandpa?

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

67. If you didn't know where the writer was from.......

....what would your contribution to this thread be?

[paulsby]

79. thread winner lol nt

[LeftishBrit]

82. Perhaps the Irish are particularly aware that Christians can engage in religious violence?

[PVnRT]

86. Please inform us who is allowed to have an opinion on anything

Or maybe we should just completely back off Christianity altogether. We wouldn't to offend anyone.

[bobbolink]

4. Naw, the Bush family is waaaay ahead of the Muslims in the crime count.

[Motown_Johnny]

5. don't forget... if a Republican President does it then it isn't illegal, (even if it is)

[Maraya1969]

14. That's why I said when someone brings this up to say, "Yes and there was an extremist Christian

shooting in Orlando the very next day!

(I don't know what the man's religion is but as far as I am concerned he is a fundamentalist radical white Christian.)

[TCJ70]

16. Did the Florida shooter...

...make remarks during his shooting that tied him to any religion?

[Jackeens]

28. After reading Jon Krakauer's book on Pat Tillman I have trouble believing any military 'information'

But I completely accept there was a big difference between the two shootings - I won't, though, accept the word of the military when it comes to their assumptions about the Fort Hood killer's motivations. Sorry.

[TCJ70]

49. Well, from what I've read...

...from the various posts on DU about his activities on the internet and what he had shared with a friend of his on base, I think his religion is pertinent to the story. We'll see what happens when he starts talking after he recovers a bit more.

[Jackeens]

60. Fair enough TCJ70, if it's proven that religion (Islam, Christianity, Judaism, who cares?)....

...'drove' him to murder then it will just confirm my view that religion is a heap of nasty shit.

[David Zephyr]

31. It's the same with homosexuals.

IF the news stories said used the term "heterosexual" in every story about a crime as they do with GLBT stories, then the majority couldn't feel so smug about themselves and their own self-righteousness.

Jackeens, your thread is a good one.

[Jackeens]

38. Thanks so much David

I appreciate your point, thanks for thinking rather than abusing :-)

[David Zephyr]

39. Well, you are a thinker here and I've always liked your posts.

:hi:

[Jackeens]

47. For you

One of my favourite songs, live from Ireland:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lai6Edx6RuM

I'll think of you always when I listen to it. :-)

[LostInAnomie]

32. Kind of an idiotic point.

Someone is trying to create a false equivalency where there is none. AFAIK, the Florida shooter did not fire on innocent people for religious reasons, he hadn't made extreme religious statements about the heroic religious murders, and he didn't make a religious statement before he shot up the place.

Hasan may be mentally disturbed, but it would be ridiculous to not look at how his extremist religious views may have effected his behavior.

[Jackeens]

36. Hasan is a murderous piece of shit - but how do we know he had "extremist religious views"?

Because the military told us? :shrug:

Maybe he was just unbalanced, like, say, Timothy McVeigh?

[LostInAnomie]

37. Besides his apologetics for suicide bombers...

... and what his fellow soldiers say, and the reports that he screamed "Allahu Akbar" before he started shooting, I guess we don't really. On that basis alone, it's worthy of mention though.

[Jackeens]

41. Sources for that info?

All that may well be true - and I'm hardly going to deny there are extremist Islamic fundamentalists out there. But honestly, after reading the Tillman book I won't ever believe a word out of a military man/woman's mouth again. Three words: agenda, agenda, agenda.

[nadinbrzezinski]

52. In the defense of the military it is not JUST the US Military

any large enough organization has that instinct to self protect and create a story.

What is ironic is that RETIRED general officers have said on the TV machine the same thing I did... there were damn signs there was a problem and the command missed it.

So yes, they are BLAMING the military... I guess they are as anti military as I am (never mind hubby retired from the Navy and I served in another large organization with that instinct for self protection)

But according to some folks, if major organization said such (in this case the US Military) then there is no reason to doubt it.

Fer the bloody record, the US military has a serious problem with this level of violence within the ranks... and it is due to a stressed force. But in the US nobody wants to ask for underlying reasons. And for the record they know about it, but what can you do? They are not allowed to expand the force to decrease pressure on individual soldiers and people are doing two and three and four tours... but somehow civilians expect them to be normal

Yeah I know, before some folks here say it. Hassan didn't go in country, but there were reasons he exploded... and yes they are related to the war.

And yes I now have good company, a few general officers who've retired and said the same thing I have... there is trouble.

But the army is doing exactly what any major organization does after an embarrassment and this is one.

[Jackeens]

55. The thing is....

"But the army is doing exactly what any major organization does after an embarrassment and this is one."

That's exactly what I felt reading the Tillman book, I felt Krakauer's anger was completely misguided: the military did what it had to to protect itself after his death, the rage should have been directed at the media for promoting the lie in an utterly unquestioning way.

This was the story that taught me never to believe a 'war time' story:

http://www.antiwar.com/orig/cohen1.html

[nadinbrzezinski]

64. Unfortuanely most folks did not learn that lesson

That said, that story was not manufactured by the US Army... but at the Enterprise Institute...

[LostInAnomie]

58. The officials aren't the ones saying he yelled Allahu Akbar.

Witnesses are.

Unless I'm wrong, the apologetics for suicide bombers was posted to his own facebook page before the shootings.

NPR said the other day that his psychiatrist colleagues refused to refer patients to him because of his extremist views and that he had used his presentation time at a professional conference to make a fanatical speech about Islam.

It's not the military officials that are saying this stuff, it's the people that actually know him or were witnesses.

[nadinbrzezinski]

63. I am willing to bet three things will happen soon

that witness testimony will ahem stop. Easy to do actually... legal, lawful order.

The army officers INSIDE the armed forces are doing right now a top down review and a lot of this will be buried under Top Secret or Above Top Secret.

Even Intel and Homeland security had warnings of this... which those same officers in the chain did NOT ACT UPON.

Having a clue as to how large organizations work, they will do self protection and FAST.

Oh and the witness testimony, like most witness testimony in almost any other disaster of this magnitude has to be taken with a grain of salt.

But the OP stands. Did Tim McVeigh's faith ever make it as part of his reason for OKC? No.. it is only Muslims and Gays (and a few other choice minorities, such as Blacks) that get their actual characteristics used to create a story line to create an other. The US is perfectly good at this game. It is not the only country to do it, but since I live here, when we start seeing Christian (insert here murder of abortion doctor, or attack on guv'ment facility) in the same amount as this muslim... well then until that happens... yes there is this bias, and give that MOST Muslim Americans in active duty serve with honor and distinction and a few are buried at Arlington I am fucking tired of this, m'kay.

[LostInAnomie]

65. It wasn't Tim McVeigh's religious views that caused him to bomb OKC.

It was his RW militant views, and he was rightly described as a RW militant repeatedly.

Hasan's religion is pertinent because his extremist views may have led him to shoot a room full of innocent people. That is the direction all the evidence is pointing. So, it is acceptable to mention his religion is reports.

It's silly to be afraid to call a spade a spade.

[nadinbrzezinski]

69. You may want to take a second look at the Dominionist movement

as well as C Street.

And I am not afraid to call a spade a spade, what is why I am pointing out that RELIGION was a VERY STRONG element in OKC as well.

That said, the US Military will bury a lot of this because they just got a good serving of egg on face, incidentally so did Homeland Security.

Oh and yes the Militias have connections to the Dominionist movements, and McVeigh did this to avenge both Ruby Ridge and Waco... and we all know Waco had zero religious elements to it.

:sarcasm:

[LostInAnomie]

70. McVeigh was an agnostic.

Religion had very little if anything to do with OKC. McVeigh's anti-government extremism, RW views, and an obsession with The Tuner Diaries had a lot more to do with it than any Domnionist views of C-Street.

[nadinbrzezinski]

73. And waco

and that is the point... there was a religious connection to it.

[LostInAnomie]

74. The only connection McVeigh had to Waco...

... is that he thought is was evidence of the government taking away liberties and attacking it's own citizens. He wasn't a Branch Davidian, he didn't bomb OKC because he felt allegiance to their religious views or for any other religious reasons. He was a RW militant and and his RW militant beliefs led him to bomb OKC. That is why it was fine for the media to call him a RW militant.

From all accounts, Hasan was a Muslim extremist and his beliefs contributed to his murder spree. That means it is fine for the media to point out that he is a Muslim when discussing his attacks and describing him.

[nadinbrzezinski]

75. Yeah you are right

our media should just tell us when it is fine when it is a Muslim. There is evidence that he was angry about waco also there is evidence that the Militias have ties to the dominonist movement. I do not expect that to ever come to the media...

So we better agree to disagree. And yes it is bothersome that they chose to emphasize one and not the other. by the way, they did not call Roeder a Religious Radical either... and that is pretty clear cut. That is the US media... the other goes nuts, not us.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

42. The fact that his former Imam is now a recruiter for Al Qaeda. Nothing to do with it right.

[Jackeens]

44. Buy yourself a Christmas present -

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Where-Men-Win-Glory-Odyssey/dp/1848873018/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1257824808&sr=8-2

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

48. So you actually live in Ireland. That explains so much.

I truly meant no offense.

[Jackeens]

51. It does. I'm a cross between a leprechaun, Che Guevara and Patty Hearst.

Which means I'm hopelessly confused.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

53. My apologies, I meant no offense.

[Jackeens]

62. I apologise right back - I'm a contemptible eejit a lot of the time.

Message to you up-thread, thanks Fire_Medic_Dave, you're a good man.

[keroro gunsou]

68. hey pal...

we've all been there... :D

(and yes, I'm Irish also)

[Hippo_Tron]

46. On a related note do Muslins commit crimes?

[thepeopleunited]

71. A good number of "IRA" bombings were apparently carried out by MI5

i.e. British intelligence for the purpose of inflaming "religious" prejudice against the Irish Republic, and it more and more appears to me that this latest act of terra is just another in a long line of CIA-engineered stunts including 911. Sick and evil. JMHO.

[mrbarber]

76. Except more and more info is coming out that the Fort Hood shooter..

Was motivated by his religion.

And you bet your ass that when Dr. Tiller was murdered, all the red flags went up that he was some nutso christian extremist. And he was.

[nadinbrzezinski]

77. Did our media emphasize Roeder's brand of Christianity

No, and that is the point the OP is making.

If they did... fine by me... but they don't when it is Christian Extremist, Hell, OKC WAS a terrorist attack... did you ever hear the MSM refer to it as a terra attack?

Now they are moving fast to do that...

[paulsby]

78. rubbish

it wasn't just that the guy was a muslim

it's that he was a muslim and

1) shouted allahu akbar during his murder spree
2) proselytized the koran at a frigging psychiatric conference, when he was supposed to be discussing psychiatric issues on the stage
3) passed out korans prior to going on his murderous spree

etc
etc

the other guy's religion wasn't relevant, because there is no evidence it played a part in what he did

there is a metric assload of evidence that hasan was influenced by his twisted understanding of islam

[cali]

83. Oh for the love of rationality

Was the religion of Dr. Tiller's murderer reported? Yes. Was his motivation being grounded in his interpretation of his religion brought up in the MSM? Yes. Was religion is any way connected to Dr. Hasan's actions? Apparently it was. Were the Florida murderer's actions connected to his religious beliefs? There is no indication that they were.


I deplore the lack of critical thinking extant in this moron's letter.