The Fall of the Wall....

[unkachuck]

Germany is celebrating today. It's been twenty years since the fall of the Berlin Wall marking the beginning of the end of Communism in Europe.

In the final analysis, Communism served the best interest of the people with a bloodless relinquishing of power. Billions will probably have to die when capitalism relinquishes power oneday as it must....kudos to Gorbachev and Communism.

Will capitalism relinquish power without a bloody fight?

[UTUSN]

1. Huh. Well, RAYGUN didn't do squat. Other than that, I don't get this post. n/t

[unkachuck]

2. the point....

....is when you consider the size of the standing armies of the East and West along with all the nuclear weaponry it's amazing how the Cold War ended. I'm grateful that one side had the sense to quit and save humanity from a blood-bath....

....I wonder if capitalism would/could 'quit' without a blood-bath....I wonder what DU'ers thought....

[Seeking Serenity]

3. "Communism served the best interest of the people with a bloodless relinquishing of power."

FINALLY. Only once it was clear that their house of cards was collapsing and they couldn't stop it. After years of bloodshed of their trying to hold on to their jacked-up system.

[usregimechange]

4. Sorry but I don't think it is accurate to call communism bloodless by focusing on its end

[unkachuck]

5. think of nuclear war....

....which was an everyday possibility for people of my generation....an all-out nuclear exchange would have made WWII look benign....

[mamaleah]

6. GHow was communism in Eastern Europe at all bloodless?

Were people not trying to get out of E Germany and into W Germany shot? Did Stalin not send plenty of dissidents to camps or to their deaths? How is that at all bloodless?

[unkachuck]

9. many many died....

....in the battle between Communism and capitalism last century, and I'm not trying to minimize that on a personal level....but when you consider the tens of thousands of nuclear warheads being unleashed, all of mankind actually hung in the balance....

....we were prepared to use our nuclear arsenal in defense of capitalism....using nuclear weapons on Japan proved we had and would use nuclear weapons....if the Soviet Union had used nuclear weapons in an all-out defense of their system, we would not be here today....

[mamaleah]

11. Again that does not address why you chose to call communism in E Europe bloodless

They were nothing but ruthless. The systems set up were very oppressive.

[notesdev]

7. Does capitalism even exist anymore?

I know of a lot of corporatist arrangements that people commonly mistake for capitalism, but actual capitalism? Can't think of a single place where you'd find it, outside of the black market.

[anigbrowl]

8. Stupid, stupid comparison.

Is anyone held prisoner inside a capitalist nation by as if it were a prison, as was the case in East Germany? Spare me the talk about invisible shackles and so on, there aren't any fucking landmines or machines guns keeping you on the inside of the mall.

[mamaleah]

12. Right now as we speak someone is holding a gun to my head and forcing me to buy things online!

Help Help!

:P

[Sebastian Doyle]

14. Well, you might be forced to pay a criminal's excessive salary, or go to prison

as a result of the Monica Lewinsky Memorial Corporate Fellation Act of 2009 (mandatory insurance bill)

[mamaleah]

17. I like that name!

Well done!

[unkachuck]

15. I don't believe....

....anyone in the former East Germany would have held a gun to your head and force you to buy things....

[mamaleah]

16. No but they certainly didn't let people freely leave, did they.

And why not? Why was there such a need to prevent people from leaving?

[unkachuck]

19. when you educate....

....everyone through college for free, when you provide healthcare to everyone for free, when you guarantee everyone employment for life with pension, maybe they needed the brain/manpower and time to do battle with capitalism and thought they were protecting their investment?

[mamaleah]

20. Oh, so by force is good in your book. If it's for the "good" of the citizens.

Maybe some of those folks didn't want to play. Maybe just being born in that zone didn't make them want to stay. So shoot them when they try to leave.

I would certainly join any armed resistance against living under the conditions that people in Soviet Russia or E. Germany had to endure.

I am certain you have just a wonderful excuse for Stalin and his treatment of dissidents.

[unkachuck]

13. "Is anyone held prisoner inside a capitalist nation by as if it were a prison..."

....that makes the way the Cold War ended even more remarkable....

[anigbrowl]

18. Address the point. There is no capitalist equivalent of the Berlin wall

It's not that I think capitalism is perfect or free of the need for regulation or even reform, it has lots of flaws as an economic system. But I have set to see the capitalist nation that is so unsure of itself that it erects barriers with barbed wire, machine guns, and land mines for the express purpose of keeping its own citizens from going abroad.

Out of curiosity, have you ever been to a communist country? If so, which one?

[unkachuck]

21. totalitarian....

....Communism sucks; totalitarian capitalism sucks....

....how many have died in the name of capitalism? How many have died in the name of Communism? Be fair and count count all the capitalist inspired wars....

[anigbrowl]

22. So you don't hve an answerr

All countries engage in wars, regardless of their economic system. Capitalist countries engage in wars, so do communist ones. The point is that no modern capitalist nation has ever needed to keep its people prisoner. In that sense, capitalism is fundamentally different from a totalitarian regime. I'd say communism is probably somewhat ahead in terms of death tolls, to be frank. Russia and China racked up a lot of suffering under communism, North Korea continues to do so.

[HughMoran]

10. oh, dear

I'm speechless...