Are people here really willing too kill this bill because it's not as good as we want it to be?

[no limit]

I fully support a strong public option and I completely agree that the version the house passed on Saturday was weak and the one the senate will pass will probably be even weaker.

But I also know that we are faced with political realities. Those political realities aren't going to be changed this year, or the next, it will take a long time. Right now we have to work with the government we got. And that government is proposing the following:

• prohibit health insurers from charging different rates based on patients' medical histories or gender.
  
• prohibit health insurers from refusing coverage based on patients' medical histories.
  
• repeal of the exemption for insurance companies from anti-trust laws.
  
• requiring most employers to provide coverage for their workers or pay a surtax on the worker's wages up to 8%.
  
• new restrictions on abortion coverage in private insurance plans (note: Medicare is already prohibited from covering abortions by law.).
  
• an expansion of Medicare to all low income Americans.
  
• provide a subsidy to low to middle income Americans to help buy insurance.
  
• a central insurance exchange where the public can compare policies and rates.
  
• a government run insurance plan (public option).
  
• requiring most Americans to obtain health insurance or face penalties.
  
• a 5.4% tax on personal income over $500,000 (individuals) or $1,000,000 (families).
  
• reductions in projected spending on Medicare by $400 million per year.
  
• includes the Tax Equity for Domestic Partner and Health Plan Beneficiaries Act
  

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affordable_Health_Care_for_America_Act#cite_note-NYT1-2

The CBO says this bill will cover 96% of the uninsured.

Now keeping in mind that we have to work with the government that we got what is the alternative to this bill? It is not single payer, it is not a strong public option. It's no bill at all. So ask yourself which is better, the status quo or what is outlined above? I think the winner is clear.

This in no way means I think we should excuse the democratic leaders for putting up such a weak bill. When primaries come around I will fully support any effort to get rid of these conservadems. But even for how shitty this bill is it's better than what we have now...way better.

[Oregone]

1. Yes

:)

[Raven]

You must be healthy, without a preexisting condition, and rich. n/t

[Oregone]

13. None of the above

Though, I have already fled the idiocracy in Moronville. Still, not being a desperate emotionally attached indentured servant with Stockholm Syndrome does lend a hand to objectively evaluating public policy.

[lumberjack_jeff]

68. Objectivity = no skin in the game. n/t

[Oregone]

70. It doesn't hurt

[Aramchek]

44. no, he just doesn't live in the US

[Aramchek]

42. so says the Canadian

thankfully, you don't have a vote in this

[Oregone]

52. Im not a Canadian.

My children aren't either. I have as much of a vote as you do in this, but the reality, we are all just along for the ride

[Aramchek]

61. oh, you just live in Canada? if you get Canadian Government services, then you are Canadian.

[Oregone]

65. Even contract workers, students, retirees, nannies, etc?

Doh!

And if you are used to getting a big dicked shoved in your ass from your government, then you are American.

[Aramchek]

66. do you have a Work Visa or are you a Citizen?

regardless, you won't be involved in US Healthcare.

Why do you care so much about what happens here when it is obvious you don't like this Country?

[Oregone]

69. Neither

The possibilities are endless?

"Why do you care so much about what happens here when it is obvious you don't like this Country?"

Maybe I don't like the country because I care about what is happening there?

My children will have options in life and be citizens of many countries. Itd be nice if some of them weren't pieces of feces by that time. I have a right to care. For my parents, I have a right to care. For my siblings too, as well as all the other humans that have to live there.

[Aramchek]

79. well, if you're not a citizen and don't have a visa, then you are employed illegally

or are you a retiree?

[Oregone]

85. I have a visa

Fun game eh? A lot of questions strung together to find out enough information to attack the messenger

[Aramchek]

67. dupe

[WilliamPitt]

51. I didn't know Canada got a vote on America's health care.

Musta missed a memo.

[Oregone]

56. But, I thought we were being inclusive. Even the multinational corporations get a vote

Why not a country full of less morons?

My birth certificate says I got plenty to say, but thanks for your noted concern

[Bluenorthwest]

75. DU has a large ex pat community

If I am not mistaken one of the most popular posters here rants from Toronto. There is nothing wrong with that at all. Families have no borders.

[bikingaz]

82. we have enough bad laws

- why add to the total?

[PSPS]

2. Yes, because it isn't "good" at all (except for the private insurance companies)

Any bill that compels me to buy a defective product from a profit-driven criminal enterprise should be killed regardless of how much lipstick one puts on it.

[no limit]

6. Except that when they tell you to buy this insurance they will make sure you can afford it

and the penalty for not buying that insurance is a tiny increase in your income tax from what I have read; that small increase in your taxes should you decide you dont want insurance would be worth all the other things this bill does.

[flvegan]

21. Have they specified exactly what "afford" is? Frankly

I see a lot of unemployed/underemployed folks killing themselves right now to make ends *almost* meet. I'm willing to bet the majority of middle class America can "afford" much more outgoing cash each month.

[happy2bhere]

47. unemployed, underemployed probably will be free health care

$80 per month if making 40,000 per year...

check out these figures
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6964544

[flvegan]

49. Interesting.

I'll pop back to check it out in the morning. Math AFTER work? Bad idea.

Thanks for the link!

[Fire1]

3. Only a small percentage. n/t

[timeforpeace]

77. Doesn't matter, a 5-vote victory with a 75-seat majority means it's DOA in the Senate.

[Raine]

4. Yes

it's an absolutely horrid bill. The insurance companies being able to force people to buy from them or risk jail, must be nice ... for them. x(

[Tommy_Carcetti]

5. Apparently they are.

Sometimes I really hate the internets.

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[no limit]

9. Thanks for the insult. You tell me how you are going to get a strong public option

Im all ears, I would love to be proven wrong.

[mullard12ax7]

19. It's very easy, by recognizing the U.S. will be bankrupt without it NOW

A few years from now will be too late for millions of Americans who face unemployment and very little infrastructure remaining in the U.S.. Not to mention the aging population that can't afford the insurance they already have and a few gov't subsidies created by a politico that won't do shit either.

It's now or never as far as many people's lives are concerned and we are talking about HUMAN LIVES, not some "issue" that needs to separated from other "issues" for the convenience of propaganda.

[no limit]

30. Nice speech. But you have to give me something I can actually work with. What do you want me to do?

Short of strapping a bomb on myself you tell me a real way for me to change this shitty government and I'll do it. I know calling my congressman hasn't really done much, nor has bitching on the internet. I cant wait for you to tell me your solution, then I will apologize for my naive op.

[HughMoran]

84. What's with the personal insult?

[valerief]

8. How do we get single payer!!!!!!!!??????? nt

[mullard12ax7]

10. Weeeee, "political realities". Political realities only exist in your mind

77% of Americans want a public option, so that is the reality.

[no limit]

17. Since when does this government do what americans want? Did you not read my post, just the title?

[mullard12ax7]

28. Yes, I read the wikipedia screed, it doesn't change reality

The U.S. will be bankrupt without health care for all NOW. Debate that in pseudo-intellectual wikipedia talk all you want, it doesn't change the reality for the 77% who want the public option now.

[no limit]

32. To win a debate you must actually address some of the points being made

let me know when you are ready to do that.

[nachosgrande]

11. Not me. Far from ideal, but it's a first step...

Keeping in mind that the issue of healthcare reform (or gov. healthcare) entered the public consciousness almost 100 years ago, and politicians have talked about and worked towards some type of reform for over half a century with no success, I'd say that what you've outlined above is better than nothing. This is a crack in the foundation of the insurance industry. We just need to keep chipping away at it.

[Orrex]

12. I won't accept any bill unless Kucinich annoints it with his opalescent tears of fragrant oil.

After that, I'm so on board.

[no limit]

15. lol, thanks for the laugh

[MNDemNY]

16. You would accept any bill that obama says to.

Are you any better then that which you seem so quick to belittle?

[no limit]

18. Come on, it was funny

[MNDemNY]

20. ha.

this "bill" is what is funny, maybe we should just wait until we control the House and the Senate, as well as the White House......that's funny.

[no limit]

24. I'm pissed off too. But I'm able to keep a raitional mind even when pissed off.

Im sorry you can't do the same.

When you have a second the please by all means feel free to address any of the points I brought up above. Like I said, I want to be proven wrong.

[Orrex]

22. Would I? On what basis do you say that?

Does Obama have opalescent tears of fragrant oil? If so, he should have mentioned them during campaign season.

[MNDemNY]

23. i think he did.

[WilliamPitt]

54. I just peed.

:rofl:

[redqueen]

59. *roffle*

:D

[MNDemNY]

14. Are people really willing to accept a bill that is even further watered down?

And still claim it as health care reform?? How bad are you all willing to let it get? remember, it's down hill from this point. The bill will not be even as strong as this milquetoast pile coming out of the House. Just how much more "negotiating " are you willing to do? Is there any limit to your giving in??

[flvegan]

26. Of course, silly.

So long as a bunch of folks with a D after their names endorse it, we can say we won (woo hoo!) and did this fantastic thing. The victory is better than the prize for an awful lot of folks.

[MNDemNY]

38. People will feel the pain of this bill before the 2010 elections...

ie: markedly higher premiums, more and more cancellations, but will feel NONE of the "benefits" until years later. That will be a tough row to hoe for Dem. Candidates.

[FatDave]

25. Honestly, I think we should kill it.

Or let it be killed. If we use it as an issue in 2010 we can pick up more seats with a simple litmus test, then pass stronger reform in the new congress. The majority of the voters really want a strong public option. Let's base a midterm election on it.

[MNDemNY]

29. I agree, we should run congressional candidates on SINGLE PAYER. It is a winning issue.

Medicare for all forever.

[no limit]

36. You honestly think that's a realistic idea?

It seems like you can never take national poll numbers and assume that they will work on a district by district level. And you might be right, but is that really a good risk to take? If this bill doesn't go anywhere, and you are proven wrong in 2010, we wont get these reforms (which are a lot better than no reforms) for a very long time.

Why wouldn't it be better to let this bill pass then try to take out the conservative democrats in primaries. The liberals still have every right to be pissed off about this and I hope they show that when primaries come around, but lets not screw this up.

Oh and thanks for actually responding to the main point, not sure why its so hard for others here to do the same.

[FatDave]

76. Sure.

It's got two strikes against it. It's a bad bill, and it's unlikely to pass even in its currently awful state. If we water it down to where Libermann will support it, it'll be even worse.

So table it. Say, "we tried really hard, but we're going to need more democrats." Turn the 2010 election, which will be gearing up any day now, into a referendum on health care.

As far as getting rid of conservative democrats in primaries, I find that as unrealistic as you do my idea. The DNC is not going to support a challenger to an incumbent. Hell, the DNC wouldn't even support Ned Lamont challenging Liebermann, and that happened under Dean.

[phantom power]

27. I think the consumer protections in this bill will have a half-life of about a year.

The lifetime of the mandate will be infinite.

[no limit]

48. I think the world is coming to an end in 2012.

So based on what some guy on the internet thinks you better start working on your spaceship, time is running out brah.

[ChicagoSuz219]

31. We need to get the best bill possible at this time...

...we can always go back & tweak it later on.

[phantom power]

33. You can expect the "tweaking" to be done by the insurance industry lobby.

They'll tweak it by removing the consumer protections and keeping the mandate.

[no limit]

40. What is the penalty for not getting insurance under this bill?

Do you have any idea or are you just talking? Because from what I read its a 2.5% income tax increase, as I said above 2.5% increase on some taxes is well worth what we will get in return.

Also what evidance do you have that the insurance company will remove the consumer protections? Are they going to magically change the minds of the congressman/women that put that in there now? What will be different in a year?

[phantom power]

41. Only if you consider campaign contributions "magic."

[no limit]

43. They aren't magic but they are getting those contributions today

so again, I ask you. what will be different in a year?

And is a 2.5% tax increase if you dont buy insurance a fair fee? Remember, poor people will have their insurance paid for by the government under this bill.

[phantom power]

63. In a year, the legislation will be passed...

So, we'll have a mandate, that is hopefully balanced out with good consumer protections.

And then... the insurance industry will do what all powerful industries do, just like breathing: they will continue lobbying to de-regulate themselves, wherever they can. Because they're corporations, they never get tired, and they sure as hell won't be out of money. Once upon a time, I would have predicted that they would at least lay low for a while, but events of recent years have shown me that I was idealistic. They have absolutely no fear of the voting public. They'll start lobbying to weaken consumer protections before the ink on Obama's signature is even dry. Hell, they might even angle to increase the mandate penalty. Why not?

That's what I think will happen. I think the behavior of both corporations and politicians over the last 30 years gives me good reason to think that way. But in the big picture nobody cares what I think, certainly not Congress or the insurance industry.

Either way, I'm sure that this is basically the bill we're going to get, so I'm going to hope you are right and I'm wrong.

[kelly1mm]

78. That 2.5% tax/fee/fine for not purchasing insurance gets that

person SQUAT! They get to pay 2.5% of income to pay for others health insurance. They DO NOT get heath insurance for that tax/fee/fine

[no limit]

80. Yes, that's why its a penalty. But it does get the country something

that is virtually universal healthcare.

[kelly1mm]

83. Well, isn't that nice. If, despite the subsidies (maybe I am single

living in DC/SF/NY/Boston) I can't afford health ins. (so long I keep paying for rent/ school loans / and food) I get the "privilege" of helping others pay for theirs. Are those warm and fuzzy feelings or just hunger pains .....? It must be warm and fuzzies since the country has (almost) universal healthcare (unless your definition of healthcare includes abortion). Thanks for setting me straight!

[no limit]

88. As has been pointed out over and over again the government will ensure you can afford it

there is an affordibility credit for most middle class Americans which will make it very affordable. If you are poor then the government will pretty much foot the bill for you.

Pretty good deal if you ask me.

[kelly1mm]

97. I have read that for a single person the subsidies would end at about 35k.

As I proposed, if a single person in a high cost of living area (SF/DC/NY etc.) cannot afford it (rent is over 1k for small apartment, 400 for school loans, transportation, food, taxes) I guess they are just collateral damage. I understand the necessity to have cutoffs but a large group of 25-35 year olds will fall into this category.

[no limit]

100. Where have you read that?

I know there is a table for this somewhere, Im not able to find it right now.

[kelly1mm]

101. I'm looking for it as well. I have foud the 2009 poverty level income

in $10,800. Also found that someone making 300% of poverty level (as in my hypo) would be expected to pay 9-10% of income. That's about $300 per month for my hypo. A lot can't afford that.

Cite for my figures:



http://www.healthcarereformmyths.org/HealthcareReformMyths.php#A5

[tinrobot]

34. Some want to jettison "good" in favor of "perfect"

...and, sadly, we will never attain "perfect."

[Laelth]

35. Yup.

Without the Kucinich Amendment, this bill is worse than doing nothing.

I am quite ashamed of the Democratic Party.

:dem:

-Laelth

[MadHound]

37. Ah yes, once again we've got to wait for change

How long are you willing to wait? Frankly there are a lot of people who can't afford to wait, who can't afford to be wrung through the wringer that this bill sets up, a mandated monopoly for the insurance company. This was supposed to be the administration of change, yet now you're telling us we have to settle for a shit sandwich and call it caviar? Pfft!

Sorry, but I'm not willing to settle for a bill that strengthens the insurance industry, I'm not willing to settle for a bill that mandates that I have to buy insurance, at whatever the jacked up price will be, from the insurance monopoly. I'm not willing to settle for a bill that takes away womens' right to choose.

So yes, we should kill this goddamn POS and go back to the drawing board. My God, we've got a large majority in both houses of Congress, we've got the WH, what the fuck are we willing to settle for? If we blow this chance for real, meaningful change, it's not going to come around for a generation or two, if ever.

Sorry, but I'm not willing to support this bill, I'm not willing to settle for a POS that will wind up doing more harm than good. I want meaningful, true change, not some POS that gets shoved down our throats so that the DLC hacks and party leaders can claim some sort of victory while consigning the rest of us to insurance hell.

[Coyote_Bandit]

46. +1

I've yet to see any glimmer of the hope for change I voted for. And since meaningful healthcare reform is my line in the sand I suspect there are a whole hell of a lot of incumbents I will not be supporting when the soprry bastards seek re-election. Fuck 'em.

[waiting for hope]

87. +1

And it is being sold as "Universal" - I see nothing universal about it at all. Just wait until a Repuke gains the WH .. whatever is in place will be dumped in the trash like the shit sandwich that it is - then how long will it take for someone to get the courage to do this again?

[treestar]

91. your last paragraph contradicts your first

People can't wait but they should have to wait until it's perfect.

[glinda]

39. Restrict CEO pay on Health Insurers. Pleaaaaaaaase!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Aramchek]

45. yes. sadly, there are people this selfish. but they will fail in the end.

[Faryn Balyncd]

50. If we pass the bill we will become the MINORITY party that betrayed the middle class to corporatism.

[no limit]

53. If we pass this bill jesus will come back and save us all!!!

That sounds just about as rational,

[Faryn Balyncd]

55. Our OPTION is to CHAMPION what Americans want & need: MEDICARE-FOR-ALL & our majority will GROW.....

....until we have the votes to pass a good bill.

[no limit]

58. You absolutely right. The point is how long it will take to grow that majority

and how much longer will it take for that majority to replace the current leaders.

My point again is we got the government we got, lets not piss away some reform that will cover 96% of the uninsured because its not perfect.

[Faryn Balyncd]

64. The problem is NOT that it's not perfect. Thye problem is that it goes in the wrong direction.......

......by mandating that Americans purchase from a cartel. We are at a crossroads, and this bill chooses the wrong path. It will make reform more difficult.

And it's not just wrong for America......It will be disaster for our party. Once Americans realize how they have been screwed, when they see their mandated premiums headed toward overtaking their entire income, they will throw us out of office.

This bill is a GOP/corporatist bill, only the GOP will not get the blame for the consequences, since they are sitting on the sidelines falsely characterizing this as a "government takeover".

[winyanstaz]

57. grow a spine...

We get what we agree too. And settling for throwing womens health care under the bus will NOT do.

[no limit]

60. Tell me one time in history DU got what it wanted

I'm dying to hear this.

[happy2bhere]

71. Obama and a Democratic House and Senate

we should be getting everything we want now.

[winyanstaz]

72. We got Obama elected....

I hope you didnt hold your breath too long :P

[treestar]

92. We knew Obama was not for single payer

So why cry for it now?

Should have worked harder for Dennis in the primaries. We didn't.

that's our problem, we never do. You can betcha Palin's supporters are out there working their asses off, even now. we however, so superior, never march in lockstep. But then we give up even when in power.

[winyanstaz]

102. Because I am not one to give up without trying..

Nor do I believe a President has the right to inforce his OWN agenda instead of the will of the people he is supposed to be representing.
He is supposed to be a President for ALL the people ..equally and it is our job to hold him to what the people want.
And yes I did work for Dennis..and I still wish he was the one in office now..we would be in a lot better shape I am sure.

[mmonk]

62. We have no say one way or the other.

[Tippy]

73. Please Remember we are a long way from a Final Bill.......

We have to wait and see what the Senate Bill is....the Debate continues...

[branders seine]

74. straw man

kill it because it is bad.


"It is bad" does not equal "not as good as we want it to be," unless, of course, you think we fought WWII because Hitler was "not as good as we wanted him to be."

[no limit]

81. Tell this guy the bill is bad:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6964544

[branders seine]

89. covering 2% is not reform, although you can find examples of individuals who will be happy.

(hint: start with the executive offices of the insurance cabal.)

This bill dumps on the rights of the majority of our population (women), and coerces the rest of us into a compulsory relationship with a criminal enterprise (the insurance cabal), all so your one guy can be happy? The bill is bad.

[no limit]

95. Not just that one guy. The majority of americans are in that income range

this bill will even be more helpful to those living at or close to the poverty line. You can not dispute this. So instead of repeating "this bill is bad" actually look some of this stuff up.

I agree the abortion ammendment is dumb. But it's a red harring. Do you honestly believe women choose their insurance based on if they covered abortion or not? Nobody plans for abortions long in advance, atleast I hope not.

[JCMach1]

86. The argument has slipped so far to the right, that Dole would have probably supported this bill in

1994.

People have a right to be angry over legislation that gives us what we could have had in 1993/94 if the Dems had compromised with the Republicans at the time and gone for their bill.

It is not the American public that has shifted to the right, it is Washington.

[treestar]

90. Yes, there are several here who have attached themselves permanently

to one thing and the people who would be helped by the bill that passes can go hang.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

93. Political Reality? LMAO.

This is DU... Political reality to many here is the equivalent of garlic to a vampire. Only flawed and narrow minded political idealism can garner wide support here...

[TZ]

94. Thank you,. The status quo IS UNACCEPTABLE.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6970101&mesg_id=6970101

[Sebastian Doyle]

99. The status quo is unacceptable BECAUSE of the fucking criminal insurance corporations

So why in the blue blazes of fuck do they deserve to be rewarded with 40 million reluctant new slaves customers?

[NorthCarolina]

96. Why is this even relevant since we all know the House Bill is DOA in the Senate? nt

[TransitJohn]

98. I'm willing to see this bill killed because it's WORSE than what we have now.

Why is that so hard to understand?