How do you guys feel knowing the party we worked to get elected is now smearing us along with DK?

[rudy23]

Is some of my donor money being used right now to launch an orchestrated attack on Dennis Kucinich? Are they trying to brand all progressives (who are against the current healthcare bill) with the same nasty terms that supposed "moderate" DU'ers are calling Kucinich today?

"UFO Democrat"
"Al Sharpton of the left"
"Naderite"
"insignificant"
"grandstanding"
"purist"
"pro-life"
"Ron Paul running mate"
"Lieberman"

etc., etc.

C'mon--those of you who have been here for a long time know this isn't real! Nowhere outside of DC are people this thuggish on behalf of the DLC. Real life "corporate" Democrats are either apolitical, or somewhat apologetic about their DLC leanings. Especially at a place like DU.

I've been talking about the anti-Dennis, DLC talking points since July:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6022082

If Obama and Rahm think they can brand progressives with this brush, they better be prepared to face the full brunt of backlash for these actions. We didn't donate and work our asses off so Rahm Emanuel could bully real progressives like Dennis Kucinich around. If this is one more shot in Rahm's arsenal, he and Obama better be prepared to face the consequences. They have utterly crapped on their campaign narrative of "hope and change" and have done so in broad daylight.

[rucky]

1. I could see the anger if this were the deciding vote.

But it wasn't. And it wasn't the first vote I've disagreed with from a representative I admire and respect. There's something else motivating this other than the vote.

[rudy23]

5. They've been attacking him since July b/c he represents more than a vote.

He represents the progressive wing of the party, and the majority of the blogosphere. They're on a long term mission to brand Dennis, along with the progressive wing of the party, as being as impractical and unreasonable as the teabaggers.

This is Obama's fantasy coalition. Corporate Dems and Corporate Repukes, linked arm in arm, laughing at the idealistic wings of their bases.

[Echo In Light]

34. Exactly why this brainwashed empire is what it is: majority of obedient suckers

[rucky]

37. I stand with the Progressive Caucus

as the progressive wing of the progressive party (which DK is an important part of). It's dangerous to the movement to pin that moniker on one guy, who's a lightening rod - especially when he broke from the Progressive Caucus on his lone "no" vote. The rest of them move in unison, draft and sponsor some great stuff, and there's more power in those numbers. Makes it more difficult for the DLC-ers to target and marginalize an entire voting bloc.

[Generic Other]

126. So you could be a progressive and still disagree with DK's vote?

without being accused of being some sort of DLC shill?

[galloglas]

75. I wish you were wrong

but I do not think you are.

It is with intent that it is being done. It is coordinated and it has a purpose. I challenge anyone to offer a reasonable explanation that is less disturbing.

[Zodiak]

185. Authoritarianism, but I think that is more disturbing

I've said this on another thread before. We have no real evidence that there are paid DLC shills on this site, and considering that we have no evidence of this, I recommend we refrain from that as a point of debate.

Now there are VERY prolific and very abusive centrist promoters on this site, and I cannot say what motivates them. But I am absolutely sure that an authoritarian would take their positions and act in the same manner, and authoritarians are about 30-35% of the total population. That in itself explains what we see here, so I do not see any use in getting more "out there" with our explanations.

John Dean's book, "Conservatives Without Conscience" was an eye-opening read. Not just for what it said about right-wing authoritarians, but authoritarians in general.

I am not even saying that authoritarianism is "bad", it just is not the way I roll, and not a good group of people from which to get objective thought when there is an agenda to be pushed.

Do they coordinate? Perhaps. But individual people watching the herd and acting accordingly explains the phenomenon just the same, and it is also part of the MO of authoritarians.

[Go2Peace]

113. many at DU never saw the worst as they were unrec'd quickly. But it was quite a barrage for a while

[snake in the grass]

160. It's their consciences speaking...

...and the root of their fury is the same as with conservadroids. They can't stand someone pointing out their ethical shortcomings. That's not to equate them with Rethugs, as I feel most of them support and fight for liberal principles. I believe it is simply a human thing. It's hard for many of us to admit we are wrong. I think it's a shame to have to say about HCR, that's it's better than nothing. I hate that we have to choose between the lesser of two evils in elections. I hate that Dennis had the guts to introduce articles of impeachment against a criminal junta in our midst and was mocked by our own side as a leprechaun, who believes in tiny gray men from Mars, but that is the world we live in. Dennis doesn't compromise and I'm happy to set my compass by him.

[Starry Messenger]

45. Agreed 100%

I've never seen such angry sore winners.

[galloglas]

73. Question for you

Why would an attack like this be carried out unless it is to eliminate the single voice who consistently does what Obama led us to believe he would do if elected?

[rucky]

82. I have no idea.

It all seems pretty irrational to me.

[timflytying]

162. I have no idea

I didn't understand what all these....?

[tekisui]

100. They fear him and unapologetic adherence to liberalism.

[BrklynLiberal]

2. This kind of attack on progressives is very disappointing...

If it were not for the progressives, McCain could be in the White House now...


Wonder if they would pull this crap on Wellstone?

[T Wolf]

12. They let him be killed without raising a voice in protest. The Dems are THE SAME as the pukes.

May both parties fall into oblivion. We need to start all over.

[dionysus]

102. now the dems are complicit in wellstones death? jesus h christ you guys have gone off the deep end.

[emulatorloo]

3. I don't think you can conflate Obama with a handful of DU'ers and their assinine posts

I disagreed w DK's vote, and I disagree with the posts trashing him. I think they are divisive.

He has every right to vote his conscience and to represent his district.

=====================

However Obama did not make these posts, nor did anyone in the White House.

And it is not that many people, they are just LOUD

[galloglas]

70. Qui bono but Obama (and Rahm)??

If it is not for Obama that this is being done, then for whom?

I wish Obama would tell them to "put a sock in it" or the blogging equivalent. But who else would orchestrate an attack on DK but those wishing to bolster BO?

What have the Freepers to fear from DK? Is it they who are so fiercely attacking?

I have another, possibly more telling, question, though. Why would an attack like this be carried out unless it is to eliminate the single voice who consistently does what Obama led us to believe he would do if elected?

[emulatorloo]

72. So you think Obama is posting on DU?

Again, it is just a few angry loud posters.

[galloglas]

74. And what is the motive??

They are not doing this without reason.

Whether they be few, loud, or angry, there is still a motive. What do you imagine it is?

[emulatorloo]

77. They don't like DK's vote. They think he is being an obstructionist on HCR

Unfortunately in their anger they go "over the top" and make it personal.

That is why I do not like the threads. I have tried to respond to them to cool down. But frankly DU is starting to really get on my nerves.

[galloglas]

83. On my nerves, also.

You are reasonable about this, it seems. So, are there really more than the two possibilities we have come up with?

A) That this is a coordinated attack on DK.

or

B) This anger is simply being generated by some who are so desperately unhappy about a Party member not being lockstep with BO on HCR.

I would like a better choice than the above. Unfortunately, if those are the only two available, either we are faced with some very nasty preemptive political maneuvering or we are looking at a very Freeper/TeaBagger type mentality with the accompanying behavior, it seems.

Would you agree?

[emulatorloo]

86. I really don't believe there is a coordinated attack. I am hoping when people cool off

things will be better.


The problem is things may not cool off for a while, this healthcare thing is going to drag on and on. I saw a Republican on tv saying they are really going to try to delay in the Senate, and after it passes they will continue to delay on implimentation. So it is going to go on and on and on.

[OnyxCollie]

109. Because they know this bill is shit

but they want health care reform SOOOO bad, they'll lash out at anyone who dares to burst their little bubble.

[rudy23]

125. That is the exact question I am trying to articulate. Thanks! nt

[JoseGaspar]

144. Cui prodest scelus is fecit . n/t

[Jennicut]

4. So when Kucinich gets criticized here it is by paid DLC operatives.

When Obama gets criticized, it is holding his feet to the fire. All politicians are allowed to criticized on DU. No one is special. And the mods on DU allow it for all politicians.

[rudy23]

7. It's a certain way he's being criticized --- all at the same time, all similarly over the top.

Obama is being criticized when he goes against progressive values, and he's criticized much, much more civilly than Kucinich is. With DK, it's 50 posters out of nowhere spouting the same terms. Lots of "shithead" or "fuckface." Very tone-deaf for DU, especially in a non-primary year.

[Bonobo]

10. Weak response. There is NO difference. nt

[Cha]

16. Your premise is false so when you

get into reality then we can talk.

".. he's criticized much, much more civilly than Kucinich is."

I haven't seen those posts criticizing dk that you wrote but I know the vitriol against President Obama on this board.

And, it doesn't have to be for some "progressive values" he's so called against..it can be bc he's not fast enough and there are a lot lying articles brought on to whip the haters into a frenzy.

[galloglas]

80. "HATERS?"

That seems to have become a meme here.

[Jennicut]

17. Yeah, like when Obama is called the one, the messiah, etc.

Or when Obama is compared to Bush on GD: Prez and criticized for having no passion.
I don't agree with Obama all the time, especially on Afghanistan. But if you dish it out, you have to learn to take it. No politician is above criticism. None.

[Lilyeye]

28. or when people say "Fuck Obama"

or "Michelle Obama looks like an idiot in her halloween costume and I am sick of seeing pics of her and Obama." Or "I held my nose when voting for Obama."

[euphoria12leo]

53. or when someone said

"Fuck his Church". IMO none of this compared to the comment "Obama will be dead by 2012 anyway" heck I thought I had switched to a
teabagger website by accident.


:evilfrown:

[Cha]

88. Oh yeah, I alerted on a "Fuck Obama" in GDP and

it was allowed to stand..so I really don't think the OP's premise is sound.

[Go2Peace]

140. I don't post like that. But let me ask, so is this all about "Payback"? Seems like I am hearing that

Especially considering that some of those who were making these nasty posts even feel free to defend them in this topic. I wonder how we can all get back to a dialog if there is no limit in civility? And no limit in posting the truth to the best of one's understanding?

Otherwise I suppose DU as possibly the party, is bound to split with one side or the other remaining.

This whole thing kind of shakes me up. Because if we become just like the repugs, and start becoming orwellian strategists, where exactly will this country be going?

[earth mom]

57. The difference here is that Kucinich did NOTHING wrong. Can't say the same for Obama. nt

[Jennicut]

64. Yeah sure, so name calling is okay when it is for one politician but not the other.

Nice double standard. Dennis can never do any wrong. Please, no politician is perfect nor no human being.

[Jamastiene]

187. That poster didn't call Obama any names except Obama.

There is nowhere in that post where they called Obama names.

[NoPasaran]

92. If DK did no wrong then Michelle Bachmann did no wrong

They voted the same way.

[rudy23]

173. Nice try, but you're making yourself look obvious, and lending credence to my OP. nt

[dionysus]

58. corporate whore, sellout, DINO, you forgot those little gems

[HughMoran]

116. & if you say otherwise you're a "non-critical thinking pom-pom waiving cheerleader"

I think it's amazing how people can "overlook" the plethora of attacks against Obama and anybody on DU stupid enough to actually believe that defending our Democratic President on a Democratic site is a good thing.

[HughMoran]

115. I agree

Nobody is above criticism.

[rucky]

39. Dunno about who's on the payroll, but the thing I've noticed...

is in a thread that is about DK - a public figure - there's the same few people who break from the discussion of congress and policy and whatnot to make personal attacks on DU-ers who like DK. He's more of a bully magnet than a target for operatives, IMHO.

[Name removed]

84. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Go2Peace]

104. Yep, noticed the same thing. Their tactics are Machievellan and authoritarian

[rudy23]

127. Bingo. Some of the Obama attacks can be harsh, but they're not authoritarian.

It's not the voice of power saying "what are you gonna do, CRY about it?"

[HughMoran]

114. Obama is not being criticized more civily that Kucinich

That's just not seeing reality.

[HughMoran]

133. I can find 1000-1 harsh attacks on Obama versus Kucinich

Wanna make a multi-thousand dollar wager on this?

C'mon - put your money where your mouth is.

Only rule, it has to have been posted on DU within the past 6 months.

[Go2Peace]

136. You have a lot of gall considering you were supporting this crap.

Sure there are some that go overboard on attacks on Obama as well. So you think it justifies returning the same type of fire? Is that what you are saying?

[Bonobo]

8. Ho ho ho. I looooooved that one, Jennicut. Well done. nt

[DJ13]

13. Could be

You dont see any anger at the 38 Blue Dogs that voted the same way do you?

Ask yourself, why not, and which group would rather slime Kucinich than take on those other 38 Dems?

[Jennicut]

20. BS. I expressed major anger several times in GD: Presidential over the

blue dogs. I think they need to lose their elections. No support for them.

[DJ13]

30. I didnt mean you specifically

I meant over the last day and a half whats the ratio of threads tearing into Kucinich verses the number of threads tearing into those Blue Dogs for being the pro-corporate whores we know they are, and who would have a reason for starting that many anti Kucinich threads.

In our party theres only one answer.

[rudy23]

22. Exactly. But don't confuse them with logic

Like some Naderite, UFO loving, grandstanding little SHITBAG who we all know couldn't get more than 4% of the vote for president.


That's how we normally talk about our Dem politicians, isn't it?

[redqueen]

42. Nobody is praising the Blue Dogs for trying to kill the bill.

That's the difference.

[dionysus]

66. there it is folks, in a nutshell. they frame it as if anyone who disagrees is a bluedog lovin DLCer

there are maybe 2 or 3 posters on the entire board who are proud DLC\blue dog supporters.

[HughMoran]

123. I wonder why the name-calling from one-side is not considered a personal insult?

I don't know of anybody who is a DLCer or a corporatist here on DU - but that's the most common refrain that those who might have a different perspective are tagged with. It's really insulting, never mind being a simple bald-faced lie.

[galloglas]

85. Oh come on.

DK had one vote. The 38 Blue Tick Hounds could actually affect the outcome.

You are seriously comparing a vote of conscience with the Blue Dogs and their self-interested votes?

[redqueen]

182. Nobody's comparing them.

Obviously St. Dennis had 'good' reasons to vote with the repukes and blue dogs...

The point is if nobody was crowing about what an awesome awesome spectacle of human holiness that Dennis is, the blowback wouldn't be quite so strong.

[NoPasaran]

93. The 38 other Blue Dogs don't have a cult screaming that THEY are the only true Dem

I really don't mind DK because having a few crackpot congress critters adds to the entertainment value of politics. It's his insane fanclub that really annoys me.

[sabrina 1]

103. And you all complain about name-calling?

The reason most of the others who voted against the bill don't have the same support Kucinich has is because he has been consistent in his position on Health Care Reform. Many of them cast votes depending on their districts, or for other purely selfish motives and most have not been out there fighting for real reform.

[Forkboy]

106. Because it would be laughable on it's face.

I don't feel Kucinich is the only "true" Dem (the argument reeks of Bush and the Repubs claiming to be the "true" patriots, so I avoid that framing entirely), but he certainly speaks out for what used to be the main Democratic ideals far more than any Blue Dog ever has or ever will. That you would consider him a crackpot makes it all too clear how sad this party has gotten. It's one thing to disagree with his approach in advocating the issues he does, it's one thing to feel he doesn't accomplish as much as he could, it's quite another to label one of the few people genuinely standing up for you a crackpot.

[azmouse]

14. Excellent!

:applause:

[redqueen]

41. Yes, we're not REAL Dems... even though I fucking worked for

Kucinich's campaigns in 04 (till the bitter end) AND in 08 (till he dropped out).

[Zomby Woof]

76. I supported him in '04

Not in '08. Nothing against him, I just liked other candidates better that time. I would never describe myself as a "DK basher". The archives of DU will back this up, since I devoted a lot of bandwidth defending him in '04.

But because I disagree with his vote on this recent bill, I am a "DLC-er", a "paid troll", and all manner of undemocratic, corporate-whoring beasts.

I am addressing you not because I think you are saying such things - just that I think that you *get* that one can reasonably disagree with DK on this issue, and NOT be any of the above libelous crap. :-)

[Go2Peace]

105. You obviously have not been reading the other OPs

Nobody has a problem with that kind of criticism. But there has been a seriously nasty campaign with much heavier vitrol occurring since the bill was passed until people started to post loudly back at them to knock it off.

[redqueen]

183. Prove it.

Find the first post, the one with the with "heavier vitriol", that was started before all the dumbass 'KUCINICH 2012!' shit.

[dionysus]

50. yes, not only that, it takes a huge conspiracy and the might of the DLC to silence him because...

he.. wields... such... influence... :rofl:

funny how he is elevated to diety status by the people who call obama supporters cultists...

[girl gone mad]

52. When it's the same few people over and over..

who never contribute anything to the board except for criticism of progressives, you kind of get that feeling.

[galloglas]

78. Not ALL politicians were elected President

It is a difference that needs to be noted.

[Bitwit1234]

6. What you CAN do

is...when you see UFO believer....just post that Reagan was late for an important meeting. When he got there he was all jacked up because he said he saw a UFO and they chased it. And if you really want to get their goat, look up a link and post it. He really truly believed in UFO's and used physics to help him predict what he could do and couldn't do.

[SidDithers]

94. He used physics, eh?...

:rofl:

Sid

[Art_from_Ark]

111. Maybe they were physical psychics?

:shrug:

[Art_from_Ark]

112. (N/T)

[T Wolf]

9. I just returned a a beg-letter from Carville (DSCC) with an IOU (thanks Jackpine Radical) for $100,

payable upon enactment of a universal, single-payer health care plan (also thanks to Vincardog).

I put it on (a fake) check #9999 because it will be at least 7500 checks from now before (if) they ever do what they should.

Personally, I have a daughter (student) who cannot get what could be a serious illness taken care of because she has no insurance. Funny, she never had that problem in her semester in London. She just went to the health service and got everything taken care of - at NO COST.

We had to tell her to go to the emergency room. I hope she is OK.

[WI_DEM]

11. You gotta suck it in and take it just like we Obama supporters have to take it every day on DU

[monmouth]

15. Is there a "drama" award up for grabs I have not heard about????....JHC...n/t

[stray cat]

18. How dare anyone ever disagree with Dennis - now thats koolaid

[rudy23]

25. It's not the disagreement, it's the attacks. Don't tell me you haven't noticed. nt

[L0oniX]

43. Here's an example:

suzie (401 posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Mon Nov-09-09 02:58 AM
Response to Reply #54
62. No, he's probably the least honest politician in the Congress.


No links ...no examples ...nice huh
:wtf:

[redqueen]

44. Yeah, like the ones in post #17, and #28?

Like those?

[Bonobo]

19. Is this flamebait?

I would say yes.

[rudy23]

23. You better be careful about that--your side is doing most of the shitflinging today.

You're awaking a sleeping giant by going after DK on healthcare like this.

[Bonobo]

26. I have not gone after DK, nor do I have a "side".

Although many people here, yourself included, swiftly are reduced to seeing nothing but groups of "Us and Them", I do not suffer from such myopia.

[galloglas]

89. If you have no myopia

then you obviously see that there is a campaign being carried on re: DK's "nay" vote.

[HughMoran]

131. "your side"

"your side" - those 2 words say more about you and this thread than anything else posted in this now flamefest that you started.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rudy23]

24. Who else do you know in real life who is so thuggishly pro DLC?

Most "corporate" Dems I know in real life are too wrapped up in their jobs to be into progressive politics, or too apologetic to crow about their pro-corporate side in a group full of progressives.

It just doesn't add up!

[Jennicut]

33. I have been into politics since I was 16 in 1992. I follow it closely.

I wish I was paid to go onto DU but sadly, I am not. Some of us are simply political junkies. I fight with my conservative parents all the time. In fact, I fought with my Mother today who said Obama was a marxist looking to add more govt. in our lives.

[rudy23]

38. I was offered the job, along with a job blogging for a movie studio.

My job was to try and get stories rated highly on Digg, to leave "anonymous", favorable reviews on movie review sites that the studio was pushing, and to forward viral videos as if they were something I was just "passing along."

I have no doubt that there are many people around age 25, who are lifelong Democrats and fought with their conservative parents like I did, who think they're doing so much good by helping Obama move forward with his agenda. They're not that concerned with some of the wonky battles we are here on DU, so what's it to them if their boss wants them to attack Dennis Kucinich for the good of Obama? If I were a paid political operative, I would use my knowledge of the way my parents think to try and advance the more conservative facets of my boss's agenda.

[Jennicut]

51. Perhaps some could be hired but many people on DU

just simply disagree with each other. Every time someone does not agree with me I don't think they are a paid operative.

My parents are very close minded. I have a pre-existing condition but my parents seem more interested about if their taxes might go up under the final health care bill.

What made me slightly disappointed in Kucinich is this bill will help many people like me that are not as lucky to have insurance as I am. And what if my husband loses his job? However, the blue dogs seem to me to be more damaging to the party as a whole. I would not say DK is a traitor, etc.

[Name removed]

32. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dionysus]

55. ROFL... holy tin foil batman... see, it's this simple;

you have a minority of DUers (some, but not all of kucinich supporters), who constantly declare dennis is the only real dem, obama is a republican, ect ect, day in, day out. obama's a corporate whore, yada yada yada.

they're the people most likely to throw out messiah/cult/pom pom in reference to obama supporter, but yet, unawares, in an amazing act of hypocrisy, do they exact same thing they accuse others of doing, they deify dennis.

then, not only that, dennis goes and votes with the repukes on the health bill. you can bet the god damn farm he's gonna catch shit from the majority of the board!

and that said, what's the matter? you guys can sling shit at obama and his supporters all day long, day after day, but you get a teensy tiny little dose of what you've been dishing, and you cry, wail, and invent patently absurd conspiracy theories about how the big bad man is keeping po widdle dennis down?! you really think someone PAYS people to make fun of dennis kucinich on message boards? do you really?!? seriously?!

it's kinda fun to watch, actually :)

[HamdenRice]

90. Actual numbers -- ROFL! Kucinich regularly polls 4%

The 96% of Democrats who voted for Obama or Hillary or Edwards and either think the Kuch is a UFO loon or just think, "Dennis Who?" are all paid trolls!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Can you see why Kuch supporters tend to reinforce his image as a UFO/Ron Paul type?

[tritsofme]

27. I have been critical of that clown for years.

Not something new on my end, but it always is fun to pile on when other people join the party.

That list from your OP appears to be more descriptive than anything else. I mean how is this guy anything more than completely irrelevant to the adults in Washington?

Just out of curiosity, did I coin "UFO Democrat" or did someone else grab it first?

[galloglas]

95. OP Confirmation?? n/t

[Go2Peace]

137. Yep. No shame either. Man, makes you wonder about the antisocial component of our own.

When the Democrats start becoming as bad as the Republicans what are we left with?

[Political Heretic]

29. It's fucking idiotic. It's divisive. It's as stupid as the freeps splitting the Rep. Party.

They insult, mock, patronize and belittle us...

Then have the fucking balls to expect our vote.

[rudy23]

31. I think they believe they can do it on Obama's popularity alone.

They've forgotten that the reason he was popular is because he acted like a progressive.

[dionysus]

65. you've been doing the same exact thing to obama\supporters for a long, long time.

not very much fun when it happens to your "messiah", is it? :rofl:

the irony of this is most likely lost on you.

[Political Heretic]

158. You must be confusing me with someone else. But please, produce evidience if you have it.

Don't generically lump me in to some artificial group with every other poster you read. I have policy disagreements with Obama. And I only stand with the President when I say that I encourage and welcome criticism of our leaders, since he is the one who said he welcomes criticism and desires to hear critical voices and opinions. I do take issue with those who would seek to quelch those points of view. All that is true.

But there are a few things you are obviously clueless about.

First, Kucinich is not my Messiah. I'm not even sure if I spelled his name right.

Second, I didn't go around calling Obama the Messiah. In fact I didn't spend much time hurling insults at loyalists either. Now, everyone has moments of frustration or weakness and I'm sure there have been times where I've been less that perfect. But I defy to you show a pattern of behavior. You can't. It's not my M.O.


Where I'm coming from is very simple, and I'd like you to not confuse it with the motives of the thousands of other posters here who probably do say things that piss you off:

(1) I have substantive policy disagreements with this administration

(2) I think it is both dangerous and tragic that some take the position that anything a democratic president does must be good, by fact of doing alone, and thus must be defended, rationalized, and explained away.

That's it. Any conflict or disagreement all comes from those two points. Now, if you think you can show a pattern of flagrant personal attacks or name calling, but all means be my guest. I'm sure over the years you'll find some infequent examples of losing my cool (but I doubt you'd bother to also notice the apologizes made in those instances) but I don't think you can find a patter of me being loud and fierce about anything other than my passionate objection to certain policy positions.

But please, do try... cause I get weary childish accusations when no one is every held accountable to actually defend their claims... :)

[Cherchez la Femme]

178. Oh for god's sake he's not a fucking messiah

you just lose more credibility when you blow things up like that. Yeesh.
But then, reality has never been some people's strong points.

[flvegan]

35. Unsurprised.

It seems buried in so many people's nature that if someone is doing the same sort of job, but only with half as much conviction, then that person (and those that support that person) will attempt to drag that person down to or below his/her level.

Besides, if "UFO Democrat" is seriously some of the best that they have to insult him, I have to laugh at them. It's far better than "paid-for shill that doesn't give a shit about the people they were elected to listen to and act for" or "tosses most convenient collection of folks or set of rights or benefits under the bus to save precious face with their benefactors"

Yeah, I'll take "UFO Democrat" any day over bullshit.

It's shameful that folks tear him down for doing too much, rather than tearing down those that don't do nearly enough.

[madrchsod]

36. you mean the no nothings?

to bad they do not understand the complexities of politics as it`s played in the house and senate.

[Forkboy]

40. I expected it. I saw the same thing happen in the 90's.

The center attacks the Left and acts like they are the root of all the Democratic ills. Then the Left leaves and the center blames the people they drove off for causing them to lose.

[rudy23]

47. This is exactly what I feared the day Rahm was hired. I knew this is exactly what they'd do.

It's disgusting. They are crapping on their campaign narrative. Do they think we'll bust our asses for them again in '10 and '12--if ever?

[redqueen]

59. The left attacks the center, too... but the center doesn't quit.

The left should stop taking their toys and going home. Then we might make some progress.

[Forkboy]

62. The center has nothing TO quit as they hardly stand for a damn thing.

If the center attacked the Right with nearly as much gusto as it does the Left those attacks from the left would dissipate pretty quickly. And at least the people on the left attack those to the right of them. Centrists kiss Republican ass but act like DK is the world's greatest villain.

[redqueen]

63. I disagree.

I don't think all centrists despise DK... I think many don't like him, and some are nasty about it... but I remember when I first started posting here... and most of the attacks came from Dean's supporters. This last go-round it seemed like it was mostly Edwards' supporters who had the most nasty stuff to say about Dennis.

So I don't think it's anywhere near as cut and dried as you make it out to be.

As for not standing for a damn thing, I think you're completely wrong on that. I think that's true of some, but not most.

[ShortnFiery]

134. But unlike the 1990s, we may leave and not come back so quickly ... until we clean up the party?

You know the old adage: Once bitten, twice shy.

The intimidation and guilt trips that will be used in the run up for the 2010 election won't work on many of us. Let's just say, we've seen it all before. :eyes:

[Cherchez la Femme]

179. And history repeats itself

yet again.

Sad.

[Hannah Bell]

46. If one were cynical, one might say that anyone who works for a campaign without getting paid

or donates money to one is a sucker.

Because you're just saving the people who really own the party a few bucks, & the pols listen to those people, not the mom & pop donors.

Five of the big boys could finance a campaign on their own dime.

[SIMPLYB1980]

48. He and you deserve it, and I'm glad to be a party

of differing opinion. Or should we all just march lock step with DK?

Edited to add: You forgot "travelocity gnome".

[dionysus]

49. i can assure you, obama and rahm could care less about dennis. there is no evil conspiracy.

dennis doesn't have the clout to warrant a second thought. i'm sorry, most amaericans don't even know who he is.

[rudy23]

54. Except for on the blogosphere, to us--the alphaconsumers of political news.

It's not Dennis, but who Dennis represents that Obama and Rahm should be very concerned about.

Dennis is a leader of the progressive wing of the Democratic party, or "My friends on the left", as Obama likes to say when he tries to compare us to teabaggers--the same way many posters are doing today.

[azmouse]

60. Most worshippers of stDennis are anti-Obama anyway.

I doubt the President is worried.

[dionysus]

67. he must lose sleep over it. ;)

[rudy23]

68. self delete nt

[galloglas]

98. Sure you wanna self-delete??

I was really looking for your reply to that post. ah, well.

[rudy23]

122. I was just gonna say-- I was, and still consider myself an Obama supporter.

Dennis endorsed Obama. I don't see where the "St. Dennis fans are anti-Obama" thing from unless one was referring to the very real consequence that supporters of a bold, articulate progressive would take issue with what we see as the overly compromised moves Obama has made on healthcare.

[Go2Peace]

151. They are? I voted and campaigned for him??? I think your lens needs cleaning

All the DK supporters I know supported Obama. Hell, I almost went to the innaguration but didn't have the funds for a hotel, I was so excited. I think most progressives felt the same way. You make a mistake to cast progressives off and Obama if he does the same. We were out in force too and wanted to see "change" we could believe in, just like the others here.

[cascadiance]

56. The more they do it, the more I'll wonder if I'm in the party I should be in...

[diane in sf]

61. This is why I donate through Act Blue and directly to progressives.

[Lord Helmet]

69. You've got some broad-brushing going on yourself.

The people that post here do not constitute "the party."
Opposing opinions do not constitute "smearing."

-----------> D * R * A * M * A

[branders seine]

71. Nowhere outside of CD and GD-P...

[The Magistrate]

79. You Do Understand, Sir, The Allegation You Make Here Is Nonesense?

A great many forum members are angry with Democratic Representatives who voted against the Bill. Rep. Kucinich voted against the Bill. The reason it has become an issue in this forum is that people have praised him for voting against the Bill. Naturally, this raises many hackles. Had people posted praise for the likes of Skelton and Schuler for voting against the Bill, there would be as at least as much of a flurry, if not more so.

[Cha]

87. Very logical..thank you,

Magistrate.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

96. I'm really stunned that people are buying into this idea that

people are earning money to post here. Someone tossed out the number 9 dollars an hour.

A great many of the posters being slammed as DLCers are long term DUers. If Obama insidiously plotted for 4 or more years to hire people to post for him...well...

I just have never been one for conspiracy, I guess.

[Go2Peace]

108. I tend to think it is more likely some out of control party hacks doing this on their own

But really, in this age we all know that there are operatives, paid and unpaid, who play orwellian games on sites like this.

That is the next great challenge of the internet. The power of internet boards and blogs has been discovered by the power players of the world. And they will be playing along more and more. There are billions spent every year to post on sites like this and others for power and for profit. Surely you must be aware of it?

Personally, at some point I think the idea of anonymous boards will be over with.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

118. "Out of control party hacks"

That's what I mean. That's a bit over the top. This is no different than calling people "over the top Trotskyites" or "Out of control Leftists" or something like that. You complain about one version of attack, but participate in the other. It makes it really difficult to take your points as anything other than you not liking people disagreeing with your point of view.

[HughMoran]

121. " a little over the top"

:rofl: ...such are the understatements we have to make at this time.

[redqueen]

184. LOL... no shit. (nt)

[Go2Peace]

161. I am supposed to make nice names for people who purposely mess with others on a social board?

Now your making up rules and getting into "netequitte nanny" territory. Please.....

As for the "label". I have no respect for anyone who in a democracy puts party over people. Because in a democracy "party" *is* people. That doesn't matter if they are liberal, centrist, conservative, whatever.

Let's see, they think they are "helping" the party, so they trash and troll and are purposely antisocial... so, rather than being a party activist, which is respectable, they are "party hacks". I don't have to make excuses for calling them on it.

Now, go ahead and call me names if you want because that is a completely different topic. I really don't care. It happens all the time here. I am sure it has happened to you to.

[The Magistrate]

128. This, Sir, Is One More Common Form Of Nonesense

The origin of this line is fairly simple. Most people who hold an opinion strongly are convinced it is not only the right position, but self-evidently the right position, and that all persons with even a modicum of intelligence, knowledge of the issue, and good will must therefore necessarily come to the same conclusion. Confronted with the spectacle of many people in fact disagreeing with their views, some explanaition must be found for the wide-spread disagreement. The cheapest, easiest, and perhaps most emotionally satisfying way to do this is to ascribe malice and insincerity to those who express an opposing view, and allege they are paid to do so by nefarious masters. This allows the person making the charge to avoid any need of examining the opposing view for any merits it might, and to claim the status of victim in the debate, which in many left persons' view of things, counts as the ultimate trump and ensures victory, as measured by audience sympathy.

[SidDithers]

150. Well said, sir...

but it sure is fun to listen to the howling :)

Sid

[Go2Peace]

163. What the hell, this has gotten to the point nobody is hearing anything

and you, of course think this is NOT you either. And your intellect, of course is superior. Yeah, I get it. Kind of like using the screen name "magistrate" and using lots of "sir's" to make oneself feel superior? Yeah, I get it.

Don't bother replying because you just earned an ignore (congrats, only the second person I have felt the need to ignore). I suggest you do the same for my account. Babye mr "magistrate" LOL

[The Magistrate]

169. Who Has No Enemies Has No Friends, Sir....

[galloglas]

99. Balls, sir !

You state Had people posted praise for the likes of Skelton and Schuler for voting against the Bill, there would be as at least as much of a flurry, if not more so.. And I reply, "Balls, sir!!"

[The Magistrate]

120. Show 'Em If You Got 'Em, Son....

[Go2Peace]

107. There is a difference between that and posting lies and purposely distorting his positions

And you know that. And you played along with it to magistrate. It surprised the hell out of me. I had always thought you to be a little more even handed and less likely to fall in with those who were playing these games.

[The Magistrate]

124. My Position, Sir, Is That Democrats Who Voted Against The Bill Did Wrongly

Regardless of whether they did so from the right or from the left. That is a postition that is cnsistent, and applied even-handedly. Any Democrat who voted against this Bill voted with the Republicans, and aligned themselves with Boehner and Cantor and Army's 'tea-bag' mob; the tale of the tally of yeas and nays demonstrates that abundantly and clearly.

[HughMoran]

119. Thanks for attempting to put this into perspective

I expect your words will not only fall on deaf ears, but you'll be teased 1) for your writing style 2) for being an Obama stooge and 3) for daring to not praise Dennis Kucinich - who as we all know is beyond reproach.

[Zomby Woof]

81. I suppose I am talking to a table here

But if one *must* engage in ideological litmus testing over this bill, please be advised that one can be both solidly on the left, *and* disagree with Kucinich concerning his recent vote. I think much of the derision here on DU is based on *some* Kucinich supporters who are mindlessly asserting that those of us who are generally pleased that the bill passed the House are somehow DLC/corporate whores/centrists/Republican ass-kissers/DINO's/paid trolls and other tiresome, libelous shit.

It works both ways. I don't agree with the people, otherwise pleased that the bill passed, who are attacking the Kucinich supporters as being blue dog sympathizers or enabling the Republicans. I do *not* think of Kucinich in such terms, nor do I agree with charges that he is a grandstander or attention whore.

But such charges as leveled in the above first paragraph do make deriding this varietal of Kucinich supporters much more tempting. I'll stick to reasonably disagreeing with him, never attacking him, calling out the stupidity of the supporters who *do* make ignorant assertions about "paid trolls" and whatnot, and yet... still be a solid lefty!

[rudy23]

91. No, and nice ad hominem before you got all "reasonable." I disagree with Dennis, too.

It's not the people who agree with the bill that I'm talking about. It's the people calling him a "fucking shithead", Naderite, Paulite, and whatnot.

[Zomby Woof]

138. I've never called Kucinich any names on here

But yeah, I do stand by my ad hominems of *some* of his DU supporters. They are unbalanced. "Look! Paid trolls, everywhere!" How can anyone not think that is Bachmannesque in its lunacy?

[Name removed]

110. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HughMoran]

129. Good post

I agree with everything you said (except the grandstanding comment. I've been watching him for a long time and he does tend to grandstand at times.)

[Zomby Woof]

141. Politics is the entertainment branch of industry

To quote Frank Zappa. So I expect a bit of grandstanding and drama from even the most principled politicians. But I admit that view is my own, and certainly don't think it is all that scurrilous to accuse someone of grandstanding. To me, it comes with the package.

[HughMoran]

146. Yep, we basically agree

I overreacted and slammed him to the pavement excessively hard Saturday night (much to the chagrin of his hardcore supporters), so I do feel a little bad about that. I will say that I'll never look at him as being 'better' than any other 'politician' from this point forward though. This stunt has brought him down to the level of 'just any old hack' in my book.

[Bonobo]

139. They all runs for shelter when you come chargin' out, ZW! nt

[jpak]

97. Yes! What we need is a Leftist Teabag Splinter Schism Wing of the Democratic Party!!!111

That should fragment the Dems enough to allow the real Teabag Assholes to win in 2010 and 2012!

Karl Rove at his masterful best...

:rofl:

[sabrina 1]

101. DC poltical operatives are scared of people like Kucinich.

He tells the truth and ruins their efforts to try to justify their positions on important issues like The War in Iraq. How can Democrats justify why they voted for the war and they continued funding of that very unpopular war?

Remember how the right would go ballistic if you told them the war was about oil. And the DLC Democrats who supported it also denied that fact.

Kucinich tells the American people the truth. For example, he revealed a clause in one of the supplementals that they did not want the American people to know about, demanding a time table from the puppet Iraqi government to sign over their oil. This truth exposes them as liars since they have been insisting the war had nothing to do with oil.

He makes them look bad. Which is not his fault. He's the conscience they don't have.

He was threatened with censure for informing the people of what their government was signing in their name, by his own party.

I think it's a confirmation of how effective someone who tells the truth can be. We need more of him. Which is why it's funny to hear them say he has 'accomplished nothing'. He has sponsored many bills which so-called Democrats should have rushed to sign on to. But they didn't. That too causes people to ask 'why'?

The DLC wing of the party has always hated Kucinich, which is a huge endorsement of how important a voice he is.

[bobbolink]

117. Not surprised---I expected it.

Now all I'm waiting to see is how long it will take for "progressives" to stop being door mats.

[ShortnFiery]

130. I'd say that I'm no longer able to be intimidated.

We're sending all the troops the bloodthirsty McCrystal WANTS and are serving up mandatory health insurance.

For the life of me, I can't see how it could be MUCH WORSE under a republican. It saddens me to consider this ... but damn all those blue dog corporatists that have seemingly hijacked our party.

I won't have any problem voting for DK for President in 2012 ... I'd rather throw my vote away than support President Obama continue more WAR and COPORATIZATION. :grr:

[anigbrowl]

132. I love the way you know things without any evidence

I think little of DK, and have said so many times. I think he's an opportunist rather than a serious candidate for president or effective congress person (in terms of getting bills passed etc). Nobody told me or paid me to think that way, that's just a conclusion I came to by myself. I volunteered on his 2004 presidential bid. I have met him. He's a nice person...but I don't think a whole lot of him as a representative.

[defendandprotect]

135. As far as I can see, Kucinich is a better Democrat than any of them -- including Pelosi and Reid . .

These idiots are only calling attention to their DLC-leaning tendencies . . .

Corporate Dems . . .??? hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[ProSense]

142. Is Kucinich off limits to criticism when he

completely wrong?

When he voted against SCHIP, I thought his vote sucked, and his vote against the House health bill is a big FAIL.

[Go2Peace]

143. Prosense, you were't "criticizing", you were SPAM ATTACKING every 15 minutes

You have a lot of gall to post here. Your nasty attacks were a disgrace to progressives and non-progressives alike. You only do harm to everyone here with that kind of crud. You delude yourself if you think what you did was in any way helpful to the cause you purport to support.

(edited for spelling)

[ProSense]

145. "critisizing"? You aren't making any sense. Kucinich is using bogus

arguments to justify his vote.

[Go2Peace]

149. I really don't care what you think prosense.

buh-bye

[ProSense]

152. Yes, you do. n/t

[HughMoran]

147. Imagine if all Dems took "principled" stands when their vote wasn't needed for passage

Is it really that brave of a thing to do - vote your "conscience" when you know it's of no consequence any way?

[Go2Peace]

148. self deleted

[Forkboy]

155. If it wasn't needed, what's the gripe about in the first place?

If it was of no consequence why are so many upset about it?

[rudy23]

159. That's the right question to be asking. Why Dennis? Why now?

There was a surge in that kind of behavior when the healthcare debate started--right around the time single payer was being cleared from the negotiating table.

[glitch]

171. I don't expect people who are capable of only black/white thinking to be better at pattern matching.

When the Republican Party imploded where did you think their fallout would land? Sure the Libertarians got a few but the majority were smart enough to resurface in a Party with some power. In our system there was only one real option. And the DLC had already prepared a nice soft landing for them.

It's no surprise that the DLC would use the same thug tactics that the Republicans use, they are the same people. And of course they are paying some people to astroturf sites like this, astroturf has always been their first answer to grassroots.

I think there are just a few apparatchiks though, the majority are just followers for whom any pile-on will do.

[Cherchez la Femme]

180. It's just something to jump on

because they really have nothing cogent, so make this a big thing by being illogical and attacking (and hoping nobody will notice the empty hand).

[Name removed]

153. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BeHereNow]

154. You are complaining about obvious candidates for your "ignore" list???

Not me, they have made it easy for me!

Any one slamming DK goes straight to my dust bin!
They have revealed their true affiliation, and guess what, it aint the democratic
party of you, me and Wellstone.

Fuck 'em.

BHN

On edit- I see many of the posters I have on "Ignore" on this thread...
Imagine that.

[Go2Peace]

164. Took me a while to learn that lesson.

In my time I only had one on my ignore list till today. Now I have a few more LOL. I see it is not even worth trying to reason with them.

[glitch]

172. Ignore is one of the best features of DU. I wish more sites had it.

My ignore list is huge by the end of the year, then at the first of the year I clear it. It doesn't take long before it's filled by the very same people again, sadly.

[Cherchez la Femme]

181. LOL me too

but I did pick up a couple more.

I wish I had used Ignore long ago, stress levels go down as well as being entertaining

[BeHereNow]

188. I didn't use ignore for many years-

But I realized that if more people did, the disruptors would
not get any feedback and eventually crawl back into the slime from where they came.

I highly recommend the feature to any one who is tired of the disruptions on DU.
It's always the same few, but they show up in packs like clockwork.
You really notice it when you have them on ignore and spot them through out a thread.

BHN

[LoZoccolo]

156. Dennis attacked first when he declared their bill to be shit.

Of course they're going to attack him back.

[BeHereNow]

157. He didn't attack- he spoke the truth.

The bill is shit and intended to concentrate MORE wealth into the hands of a few.
Period.

BHN

[Egnever]

165. Or it could be because many here think this health care bill is important

to themselves or their loved ones and Denis is standing in the way of it passing. People tend to get pretty agressive when people stand in the way of the health or wellbeing of their families.

Dennis needs to get off his high horse and help bring health care to the millions of americans that need it. Casting a no vote cause he would rather have something that has absolutely 0 chance of passing is standing in the way and I for one think its disgusting.

Fuck Dennis and his fantasyland perfectionism.

[rudy23]

167. How did Dennis' "no" vote affect anything? You'd think he filibustered the bill himself.

No, the reason for the overreaction is because the DLC doesn't want a real progressive showing people what progressives are SUPPOSED to stand for. So you'll write him off as part of the loony left and try to equate him with teabaggers.

Not in this lifetime, not on this board.

[Egnever]

175. lol your tin foil hat is amusing

[theHandpuppet]

166. I haven't agreed with DK on all issues

But the vitriol aimed at Dennis here on DU is more than disappointing -- it's appalling and shameful.

[rudy23]

168. Appalling, shameful, and *orchestrated*. I don't agree with him totally either.

But the even more shameful thing here is that we're getting a glimpse into the DLC's long term strategy for dividing and conquering the left.

Get used to this--you thought Rove was bad. Now his tactics are coming at us from "our side."

[HamdenRice]

170. "and *orchestrated*"

Yeah because Kuch supporters on a message board are such a threat to corporate hegenomy that the ridicule of the Kuch must be coming from trolls paid by "corporate fat cats."

Ever consider that Kuch is just a ludicrously funny character?

[ProleNoMore]

174. No Surprise Here - The DLC Democrats Don't Care About The Proles - A New Party Is In Order

eom

[Cherchez la Femme]

176. They really must think they can take the liberal out of Liberals

and the progress out of Progressives.

It has gotten worse after each purge.

Seriously deluded people. It's like arguing with Republicons, all the way down to the ad hominem attacks.

DU ain't what it used to be, that's for sure. With blessings from the mods & owners, who even run Republican ads
--to which I was told that if I DONATED to them I wouldn't SEE the Republican ads
After purges and shit like these attacks given tacit approval like there'd be ANY chance I'd donate! :crazy:

[LatteLibertine]

177. I love DK

and what have we Liberals actually got done that would cause fear in the corporatist politicians and lobbyists in Washington?

[Jamastiene]

186. You forgot Leprechaun and Keebler Elf.

They call him that too. They also ridicule him for his height. there is nothing like tearing a person's appearance down in a political debate. So freaking mature. :eyes:

[JVS]

189. We have a bunch of "Moderate" extremists.