This infighting over Kucinich is pretty absurd.

[FlyingSquirrel]

Dennis voted "no" because he could. Each representative has their own role to play - Dennis was safe in his district and knew the bill was going to pass without him. He voted "no" to send a message - but if it had been down to his vote for final passage, he would certainly have voted "yes". He's not stupid, he knows this bill is better than nothing - if only very slightly. And EVERY Democrat knew the bill would be DOA in the Senate. It's all just more games. Our whole system of government is truly absurd.

[WeDidIt]

1. I don't buy your argument

Kucinich would have LOVED being the vote to decide it.

In fact, I think he thought he was going to throw the bill under the bus and cause a major loss for Obama all out of jealousy and ego.

No way, no how was he ever going to vote yes.

[FarPoint]

6. Me either......

as a legislator, Dennis is a failure for his inability to negotiate; he is rigid and obstinate. He lacks insight and vision to where taking steps forward is a means to ones goals verses my way or the highway thinking. A sad disappointment. He needs to learn how to be a "player" for his constituents. I love his views, don't get me wrong but he just puts up walls, blocking progress for principals...

[sellitman]

10. You are in the dark

If you think Dennis is full of " jealousy and ego"

You don't know the man at all.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

2. This statement:"If it had been down to his vote for final passage, he would certainly have voted yes

is far more contentious than you probably realize.

[FlyingSquirrel]

3. No, actually I realize it's contentious

So I posted it to see what the response would be.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

Many of Kucinich's most ardent supporters and detractors will disagree for different reasons

detractors will argue that he wants the glory

supporters will argue that he is too principled to ever sell out his vote

[rollingrock]

4. I disagree

I can't see someone like him ever voting yes on this turd, whether it hinged on his vote or not. I also think that in many ways, the bill is worse than what we have now. Overall, I don't see it as being an improvement.

edit: and it will get even more watered down by the time it goes through the Senate. if you can imagine!

[rwheeler31]

5. No excuses it was a dumb move. If you want something

vote for it, and do not try to make your party look weak.

[earth mom]

7. No, Dennis did the right thing. nt.

[MadBadger]

8. So the people who support the party dont belong on DU?

Its called DEMOCRATIC Underground. But yet you think the people who support the policies of the party should leave.

WHat the hell is wrong with you?

[beardown]

17. Party over nation strikes again

I've seen the repub put party over nation time and again over since Reagan as the repub party moved farther and farther away from it's original policies and beliefs until the only thing that remains of the party is the name.

If you think that the current dem party is fighting to protect the polices and beliefs of traditional democratic party supporters as opposed to the corporate donors that have taken over most of the party than you've just jumped aboard the same boat to hell and you'll ride that style of the party to corporate feudalism.

Enjoy your rant while you can, but if the democratic underground is just a mindless cheering team for whatever corporate democrats do as opposed to trying to take a stand for traditional democratic values and polices and the good of the nation than Nader was right and you're merely arguing tags over values.

[Laelth]

21. +1 n/t

:dem:

-Laelth

[GreenArrow]

19. someone who supports the policies of the party

simply because they are the policies of the party is a goddamn sheep.

[MadBadger]

9. Oh, and I know what you said before you deleted it.

[rwheeler31]

11. We need health care and we will never get it

if we do not get together.

[earth mom]

13. With all the fake dems aka DINOs in the dem party these days there is no way we will come together.

The waters are so fucking murky with disinfo and lies that it's all like some giant espionage thriller where it's impossible to figure out just what side someone is on.

This country is so FUBAR it ain't funny.

And Hope & Change is the biggest fucking bullshit propaganda that ever existed.

[rwheeler31]

14. I am sorry you are so disappointed, I still hope.

[BzaDem]

12. Dennis specifically said that he would not have changed his vote if it were the deciding vote.

"As he spoke, Rep. Dennis Kucinich (D-Ohio) walked by, handing reporters a statement explaining why he'd been the only liberal to oppose the bill.

Would you have changed your vote if yours was the deciding tally?

"No," said Kucinich. He then added cryptically: "I could've been, but that would've been up to the White House." Kucinich is pushing for inclusion of an amendment that would allow individual states to implement single-payer health care without being sued by insurance companies."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/11/08/health-care-passes-the-sc_n_349783.html

[ixion]

15. Kucinich is one of the most real progressives in the game

I have far more admiration for him than I do the vast majority of them. He is consistently principled, and for a politician, that is an extremely rare trait.

[grantcart]

16. The problem is that when it comes time to enforce caucus/party discipline

on members from red and borderline districts they will simply say "Hey if the guys from super safe districts can vote anyway they want why should I follow the caucus".


I wasn't particularly upset until I saw the attached list.


14 blue dogs come from districts that McCain took by 18 or more percent. 5 came from districts that they won by 2 percent or less.

All these guys are likely to be gone but we should still ask them to stay with the caucus on the big votes.


Kucinich who took his district by 18% - and interestingly Obama took by 20%.


Kucinish should make whatever statements he wants - they probably will be pretty intelligent and on point, but he has to stop voting with Michelle Bachman and giving permission to blue dogs to ignore the caucus.


http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2009/11/08/us/politics/1108-health-care-vote.html




Off topic: I think that DK miscalculated. I think he thought that the progressive part of the party would rise up and embrace him.

As your OP points out it has divided us almost right down the middle, and I don't think he thought that is what the outcome would be.

[GreenArrow]

23. "giving permission to blue dogs to ignore the caucus"

The blue dogs were going to ignore the caucus no matter what Kucinich did. Getting the blue dogs on-board is the job of the house leadership, Pelosi et al, (and one could reasonably assume the President himself might take a hand in that work, along with the national party) and they did a, well, you decide what kind of a job they did on it.

[grantcart]

24. And Democrats who come from safe districts and ignore big votes encourage them

And when they are approached for DADT or something else they won't even have made the case for ditching the caucus, Dennis has made the argument for them.


Again Dennis could have issued whatever statement he wanted to and voted with the leadership, thats what people from safe districts are suppposed to do.

[GreenArrow]

29. And again, drumming up support for this bill

isn't his role. That belongs to Pelosi and the rest of the house leadership, the President, and the party moneybags. Apparently, they failed not only with the blue dogs, but with Kucinich as well. His vote was irrelevant to their decisions. Not only that, his vote was irrelevant to the final outcome.

[Laelth]

18. I am glad to see that DK voted against the bill.

I suspect he would have voted for it had his amendment been included. I am very disappointed in the rest of the Progressive Caucus.

:dem:

-Laelth

[mmonk]

20. Or since the party told him and the millions that would like some

compromise over a medicare for all system consideration to go to hell by stripping it out, he might have given the same reply back with his vote. However, if it came down to his vote in reality, he might would have voted yes.

[chill_wind]

22. DK is a big deflection. The reality: Very tepid enthusiam for the bill.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x8742283

Not what I would call widespread celebratory.

[elocs]

25. I was told in another thread about DK that he has no major legislation to his credit,

that no important bill that he has sponsored has become law. It also appears that he is not able to work with other members of Congress the way that Ted Kennedy and I doubt that he has the respect in the House that Kennedy had in the Senate.

He is a god to many DUers because he does wax self-righteously on important Liberal issues. He has inspiring words but doesn't seem to actually accomplish much.

[Mari333]

26. I will write him in in 2012

thats it, no more believing in anyone else at this point.

[stevedeshazer]

27. Thanks for making sense.

Over and out.

[paulsby]

28. this reminds me of the whole nader brouhaha

nader was either a hero (heck, even michael moore initially came out strong for nader) or a villian

imo, he was neither, since NADER didn't make the difference, nader VOTERS did. it's their fault, not his. imnsho

dennis made no PRACTICAL difference with his vote. nobody was harmed by what he did. that doesn't mean i don't think he's a putz. i do. but he made a nice symbolic gesture that i am sure he will use to grandstand in the future. more power to him. he'll never be president, thank god.