Will I go to jail if I don't buy health insurance? No.

[kpete]

Sunday, November 08, 2009

Will I go to jail if I don't buy health insurance? No.
The newest meme of opposition to the health insurance plan is that if you don't obey the individual mandate to purchase health insurance, you will go to jail.
http://republicans.waysandmeans.house.gov/News/DocumentSingle.aspx?DocumentID=153583

This is false.

.........................

If you don't want to pay your taxes, the government will punish you, not because you object to buying health insurance, but because the government doesn't like it whenever you don't pay your taxes. It also doesn't like it when people don't pay their taxes because they object to the government's defense spending.

You might object: the individual mandate tax is different than general revenues going to defense spending. This is a tax directed at people if they don't do something. That is true, but in this case the tax is correlated to the costs that you impose on others by failing to join the risk pool for health insurance.

If lots of people (and especially young and mostly healthy people) don't buy health insurance, the cost of insurance goes up for everyone, and it is passed on to others in the form of higher premiums. In addition, people who don't buy health insurance tend to wait until their health problems are severe and then use emergency services; they may contract communicable diseases (which they may pass on to others) or they may become disabled. All of these costs get passed along to others--in the form of higher premiums and higher costs for hospitals and insurers--or they have to be absorbed by federal and state governments through programs for the poor or the disabled.

So if you don't buy health insurance, you are increasing costs for other people. The federal government is taxing you to recoup some of those costs. An analogy would be taxes on alcohol or tobacco, although these taxes are usually worked into the retail price of the goods so that people don't even have the opportunity to refuse to pay them. Another example would be taxes on an enterprise that is creating additional costs to the environment through pollution; the government taxes you if you don't purchase and install anti-pollution equipment. If people don't purchase the pollution-control equipment and won't pay the tax, the government will fine them too.

........................

more:
http://balkin.blogspot.com/2009/11/will-i-go-to-jail-if-i-dont-buy-health.html

[greennina]

1. The fact that they made it a possible punishment...

is wrong. You can whine all day about how it isn't likely, but the fact that the Party decided to threaten us with prison if we didn't give money to insurance companies is wrong in and of itself.

[NYC_SKP]

3. Nobody is Forcing you to buy private insurance. Go for the public option.

Subsidized if you qualify.



http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6963675

[greennina]

4. Require understanding a complicated flowchart to stay out of prison...

is ridiculous. Thanks for proving my point for me.

[Hatchling]

14. Complicated?!

Are you kidding me?
:rofl:

[NYC_SKP]

21. LOL. I don't think it will be a zero tolerance, screw up-go to prison kinda deal.

They catch you they're likely to give you a chance to make it right, just like they do with tax errors.

They (we) need people free and able to make reasonable contributions. If you're indigent, you won't be penalized, you will be subsidized.

If you have funds and just don't want to contribute, then you'll be compelled to (as you should be).

[Odin2005]

22. Complicated?

Are you blind?

[treestar]

31. I found it quite simple.

:wtf:

[truedelphi]

9. I believe that the flow chart you are posting is from back in August.

Whether the current bill still has those provisions as portrayed in the flowchart is anyone's guess. Or at least, I couldn't tell you.

[NYC_SKP]

23. True, August, DU moderator, pinto, posted it earlier today.

I believe it remains structurally accurate.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6963675

[clear eye]

25. ~97% of people won't be elegible for the public option

at least the first year of the mandate. The % elegible will increase gradually in future years, but still remain very small.

For instance, if your employer allows you to buy into its group policy, but you have to pay the full premium, affordable or not, you are excluded from the "public" option. Aspects like these are what are causing people to say the gov't underwritten (but privately administered) option in the plan is "public" in name only. We're not making this up. Google all you want and call the office of your Congressperson to check on this if you find it hard to believe.

All this bill would do if it becomes law, is fool folks like you into giving up your demand for real reform for 3 1/2 years until the reality of the mandate, lack of control over premiums, and minimal subsidies hit you. And it protects the Dems who voted for it during that time.

But its real acheivement is outlawing any and all state-created single-payer programs.

[pnwmom]

28. 97% of people are NOT currently offered health insurance from their employer.

I don't know where you got your number, but it's wrong. And anyone who doesn't get insurance from their employer can get the public option.

[clear eye]

29. It's not wrong.

That's only one example of why people will be excluded. The figure Obama gave for the expected % elegible the first year was 2-3%.

[pnwmom]

34. And that number is based merely on a GUESS that most of those eligible

would voluntarily choose a private plan instead of the public plan. But that is still to be determined.

[truedelphi]

39. I am looking for the 27 page summary. i can only fidn the link to the 1900 pages.

A lot of the bill's provisions do not Kick in until 2013.


http://docs.house.gov/rules/health/111_ahcaa.pdf
That's the link to the version just voted on. Have at it! COBRA mentioned early on.

It is 1,900 pages long, but there is a nifty Table of Contents so you can find the section you are concerned about, and then use the "Go To" function to pull your cursor to that page. Unless of course you plan on reading the whole 1,900 pages.

[JustinL]

36. the fact is wrong because it isn't true

The bill doesn't mention anything about jail time. The Internal Revenue Code establishes jail time as a possible penalty for tax evasion. However, that penalty is only imposed in extreme cases. The chances of someone who can't afford health insurance being sent to jail are about the same as the chances of the sun going supernova tomorrow.

http://politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009/sep/29/patients-first/conservative-group-says-youll-be-imprisoned-not-ha/

[bikingaz]

37. no jail for non tax payment? seriously who are you kidding?

tell that to the 1000s in the street who have been evicted from their homes, cars repossessed, wages forcibly garnished, behind on child payments, etc.
Once you can't pay, off you go.

[JustinL]

44. Over 8,000,000 people currently owe the IRS. Only 2000 per year are sentencted to prison.

You do the math.

http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=news/national_world&id=6645858

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

2. So it's a tax now? Oy... not the best line of argument.

[closeupready]

5. Obama himself said that this is not a tax. Ergo, any jail time is for failure to buy insurance.

I will find the youtube clip if necessary, but he said it.

[TheGunslinger]

32. That's why the text of HR 3962 says a 2.5% TAX will be levied for failure to comply?

[closeupready]

35. Oh, it is indeed a tax, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's not.

I'm saying Obama tried to say a mandate isn't a tax. I'm sure that will come up in a press conference coming soon to a TV near you.

[kenny blankenship]

6. Disingenuous in the extreme. Oh, you won't be dragged in to a cell for not buying

the insurance you can't really afford. You'll encounter the criminal justice system for not paying the fine you can't afford for the insurance you couldn't afford and didn't buy.

As if the second doesn't proceed from the first, and as if it had nothing to do with it.

And thus they washed their hands.

[glitch]

12. +1

"As if the second doesn't proceed from the first, and as if it had nothing to do with it."

Bizarro world.

[Hun Joro]

24. Thank you! You nailed it.

[earth mom]

42. Bingo! You should post a thread explaining it in exactly this way! nt

[sabrina 1]

46. Unbelievable, they really do believe

we are stupid, don't they! This is a disaster. And I can only imagine the teabaggers' reaction to a tax on those who cannot afford to buy from Congress' business friends. I wonder whose brilliant idea this was?

[provis99]

7. Up to a $250,000 fine and five years in prison. fuck that. I'm not paying the tax.

they'll have to send my ass to prison, where at least I won't be paying off private health insurance.

[grasswire]

13. and taxpayers will pay $40,000/year to keep the scofflaw in custody

...and the prison industrial complex will rejoice!

This is nuts.

[TexasObserver]

8. Right. And they wouldn't prosecute med marijuana users would they?

If the law is on the books, it will be abused, so I do not agree with your supposition.

If the law isn't enforced in the near term, it probably will be the next time the GOP holds the presidency.

[Waiting For Everyman]

10. Passing on the cost to others?

Are you under some delusion that uninsured people who get medical treatment are not billed for it? Are you unaware of the legal devastation (called "collections") which hounds anyone with an unpaid medical bill? Hounds them to the point of individual economic ruin?

Is there some fantasy out there held by insured people, that some can walk into a hospital and be treated for free? Bullshit!

Lies! This does not happen. Not ever.

The only costs which are absorbed by the system are any shortfall of 100% of the bill which remains uncollected, which isn't much - and that 100% amount includes doubling the costs up front to begin with... supposedly allowed in exchange for providers' promise not to vulturize the indigent who have unpayable medical bills. Well that doesn't happen, but the fees are doubled anyway.

This meme about "passing on costs" is just another insurance lie and scam they pull.

[truedelphi]

11. Thank you for pointing out an aspect rarely mentioned. n/t

[glitch]

15. It's a rw talking point that is now repeated by self-described "centrists" nt

[sandnsea]

17. Excuse me?

You're saying "centrists" are repeating this go to jail bullshit? Look again.

[girl gone mad]

20. Like I've said before..

I have always paid all of my bills, even when I was uninsured. Often, I was charged at a 200% to 500% premium. If anything, the uninsured have been subsidizing the under-insured and those on Medicare.

My neighbor was hospitalized last year. She's insured, but her coverage was denied. Who do you think will end up paying that bill?

[treestar]

33. But under the new system you'd be insured

The new system is talking about people who don't choose to be insured where they could be under the new system. Not the uninsured. The idea is to get people insured. Then you wouldn't have to pay those costs as direct bills out of pocket.

[sabrina 1]

47. Exactly, that was the first thing that struck me. The fantasy

that a visit to the ER is free. I noticed that because as long as five years ago, before we were even talking about this, I used to post on a rightwing board and this was what they claimed. I tried to explain to them that no one is treated for nothing, that they are billed, and often at higher rates if they are without coverage.

This is Obama's latest 'evolutionary thinking'. He has completely adapted this rightwing lie that 'we are all paying for these lazy, no-good bums'. It is thoroughly disgusting to see this coming from Democrats. I just posted about it in this thread. Thanks for noticing it also and drawing attention to it.

[sandnsea]

16. The left repeats right wing talking points

yet again. And then blames the pragmatics because we lose due to bullshit that wasn't true to begin with.

:crazy:

[backwoodsbob]

18. keep applying that lipstick

It still sucks.

I'll vote indy if they pass as is

[ProleNoMore]

19. Are You Sure?

eom

[bigtree]

26. Poor old me is 'imposing' a cost on folks who can afford insurance?

I'm baffled by the assumption that folks can take on any cost that's imposed on us without damage. I'm not polluting or smoking.

[undeterred]

27. If you go to prison you will get health coverage.

Some people will probably try it.

[treestar]

30. People in jail are at least covered

Maybe that's the thing? If you don't want to be covered, the only way to get you covered is to put you in jail.

[Demeter]

38. It's Ass-Backwards

If you want everyone to have health care, then so decree, and pay for it out of general funding and a progressive (VERY progressive) tax scheme.

Stop trying to piece together a patchwork quilt of coverage and knit a whole blanket.

[truedelphi]

40. Same feelings here. n/t

[Greyhound]

41. Ah yes, but the idea is not for everyone to have health care, it is to appear to want everyone to

have it while protecting the health care denial industry.

The bill that gives everyone health care, costs less than we are already paying to cover less than 2/3, provides for the workers displaced as the plan is implemented, and allows for "special care for discerning clientele with the means to pay for it", has been blocked by this leadership for almost three years.

It has 80-some co-sponsors and is ~30 pages long.

[earth mom]

43. Sorry, can't rec the lies and bullshit the health insurance industry is doing to make their ripoff

look good. :grr:

[sabrina 1]

45. There is so much wrong with this that I don't know where to begin.

But this statement eg, is patently false:

In addition, people who don't buy health insurance tend to wait until their health problems are severe and then use emergency services; they may contract communicable diseases (which they may pass on to others) or they may become disabled. All of these costs get passed along to others-

This used to be only a rightwing belief, but now it's been adapted by the 'left' in support of an indefensible capitulation to Big Business.

First of all, when someone ends up in the ER it is NOT because they refuse to buy insurance because they are selfish, lazy bums. The truth is they are mostly the working poor who cannot afford it, or they have a pre-condition and have been turned down by the predatory, for-profit Private Insurers.

The second lie is that a visit to the ER is free. It is not free, far from it. Most people who are working, but cannot afford insurance, receive a bill for their treatment and end up making a payment arrangement with the hospital. If the bills are insurmountable, they end up in bankruptcy where the first claimant will often be the hospital.

Clearly the adaptation of this smear on the working poor by the left demonstrates how far right the party has moved. It is similar to the adaptation by the 'left' of the rightwing claim that the Iraqis 'need to get their act together and straighten out their country' as if we had nothing at all to do with the slaughter and devastation of that country and the entire responsibility for it belongs to the people we invaded.

Another rightwing lie (talking point)in the OP is the implication that young people, college students eg, refuse to pay for insurance because they feel 'invulnerable' and are selfishly spending all that money they have on drugs and booze or whatever. The fact is that most of those young people cannot afford Insurance. Many are working part time jobs to help pay their way through college and can barely eat, let alone buy an expensive premium.

There's more, but those two stand out as formerly part of the rightwing propaganda to support their theory that no one is poor in this country, that no one is without healthcare, unless they are lazy parasites who refuse to pull themselves up by their bootstraps.

In the past, I would have assumed this came from Red State or Free Republic, but sadly, when Obama who once said we 'cannot force people to pay for what they cannnot afford' now says 'the rest of us should not have to pay for those who are not paying their way', I no longer am surprised to discover that this kind of attack on the poor and the young (prime potential customers of Private Insurance coincidentally) comes from some 'progressive' propagandist.

As far as people going to jail? Even THIS abomination of an apologist piece of propaganda, try as it does to debunk that fact, fails to do so. If you don't pay your taxes, you go to jail. And this sneaky way of getting around the grotesque attempt to force people to buy something they cannot afford by using fines (which was the intention) by turning the punishment for being poor into a tax, is not going to fool many people or make the poor any more capable of paying.

It is a crime that this country is refusing to provide health care as all civilized nations do for their citizens, which is a right, and has come up with a confusing, convoluted piece of legislation that bails out Private Insurers and is trying to sell it to us as 'healthcare reform'.

We'll probably be seeing much more of this kind of propaganda until they pass their Insurance Reform/Bail-out Bill and people WILL end up in jail whether they call it a tax or a fine. The truth is people are being forced to buy a shoddy product they cannot afford from people they do not trust, and no amount of obfuscation can hide that fact.

[Skittles]

48. my first unrec

for complete utter bullshit

[MSchreader]

49. Yes, us dirty proles are responsible for the health care mess

Just like we're responsible for the mortgage crisis and the collapse of the economy because of the sub-prime mortgages and not shopping until we drop.

"Bipartisan" class warfare -- gotta love it!