We can fix the HCR bill in the future.

[Kermitt Gribble]

Like NAFTA, like the Patriot Act, like FISA, like stopping funding for the wars, like rolling back the Bush tax cuts, etc, etc. All of this stuff will be fixed when the Dems re-gain the majority in 2006. What?? These things weren't fixed after 2006??? Well, certainly they will be fixed when we take back the White House in 2008!?!?

The whole thing is a big scam to perpetuate the illusion that the govt actually works for us. The govt of the United States works for the corporations. Period. Sure, they throw us crumbs now and then to placate us and uphold the illusion, but we fall for the good cop/bad cop routine every time. 2006 and the inaction that followed should have been conclusive evidence for everyone. Yet, some still refuse to see the truth.

So, keep hope alive that the HCR bill will be fixed or expanded upon in the future - I really, really, really hope you're right. The more recent history of our corporate-owned govt, however, says otherwise.

[DJ13]

1. Tomorrow never comes

The politicians know this, but the voters continue buying into the lie.

[Diane R]

2. Agreed. We need to make a start. This bill is just a start.

[DemBones DemBones]

3. It's strange how a Dem president and Dem Congress can't

get jack shit done -- or, rather, they get jack shit done and it is really shitty.

LBJ had Medicare up and running in eleven months and computers were still pretty new in those days. I doubt Medicare was computerized in the beginning because of the cost it would have added. The computers we had in banking back then took up an entire room; how things have changed.

Fix the bill LATER?

That's like when women were denied the right to vote when black men got the vote. The message was "We'll come back for you ladies later." Well, they did, but it was FIFTY YEARS LATER.

Fix the bill NOW, or kill it.

[Jackpine Radical]

4. We need a majority. No, no, I mean a supermajority.

Uh, make that a super-supermajority, We need Rahm to go out & dig up some more Blue Dogs for us. They're better than Republicans, ya know, and they won't scare off the corporate contributions. Better to be in the middle than the right, right? Hold on a minute there, we have to move the middle a little further over to the right. Damn, we couldn't get the public option through, and we couldn't even get single-payer on the table. See? We need more Democrats. Better make sure they're corporate-friendly, though. Gotta keep those big bucks coming from the health insurance moguls.

Stop the bandwagon already. I wanna get off. I'm headed for that other wagon, the one being driven by the little guy with the pointy ears and the tinfoil hat.

[PeaceNikki]

5. Oh, NAFTA, the Patriot Act, and FISA are "fixed"?

huh... who knew?

[ThomCat]

9. They shouldn't be, but politically they are very fixed.

NAFTA, far from being revisited, is being duplicated in other free trade agreements.

The Patriot Act is being fought tooth and nail over tiny revisions, and Obama is fighting even that, instead supporting the invasive powers in the Patriot Act. The bulk of the Patriot Act isn't up for discussion or review, and even the tiny parts that are being discussed look like they will be continued.

FISA was spun as somehow being a good thing, instead of being an abominable secret court that rubber stamps stuff that they know would never pass in front of any legitimate court. FISA is being protected, and treated as if they are our great hope and defenders. Have you seen any discussions about eliminating FISA and requiring that all warrants go in front of the regular judicial system?

Yes, NAFTA, the Patriot Act, and FISA are effectively fixed, and many of us knew it.

[BrklynLiberal]

11. Right "fixed" as in "made permanent"...

[TheWraith]

6. Ya know that the Patriot Act has been neutered, the Iraq war is ending, and the tax cuts are dead...

Right?

Oh wait, sorry, facts get in the way of your argument. :eyes:

[LWolf]

8. No, I don't know that.

The Patriot Act...still exists.

We are still in Iraq. Not only are we still in Iraq, we are escalating war in Afghanistan. Sending MORE troops to die.

Tax cuts? I haven't heard about them one way or another. Tell me more.

[ThomCat]

14. The vast majority of the Patriot Act hasn't come up for any disccussion

or change. The few small provisions they are discussing, that a few are trying to sunset, Obama is fighting to retain and strengthen. So where do you get this bullshit that the Patriot Act was neutered?

The Iraq War is ending? This administration just started renewing stop-loss orders. They are extending tours, and still sending more people over there. Even the most optimistic long-term plans coming from this administration still call for a permanent occupation by tens of thousands of troops. Ad to that all the permanent contractors and mercenaries that they aren't obligated to tell us about, because that would be a "state secret," and you have a huge ongoing occupation, not the end of a war.

What tax cuts are dead? Which ones?

It really sounds like you just like to make shit up.

[Kermitt Gribble]

21. Right. whatever TheWraith says is fact. got it... n/t

[ThomCat]

7. Like NAFTA?

Funny you mention NAFTA. Obama campaigned on revisiting and revising NAFTA and other free trade agreements to insert environmental and labor protections. He said that if free trade didn't include these protections then he wasn't going to be for any more free trade.

He hasn't bothered to revisit NAFTA. It isn't even on the agenda for anywhere in the future.

He is, however, pushing other new free trade agreements and they do not include the labor and environmental protections that Candidate Obama said he supported so strongly.

Obama is even pushing free trade with Panama, which would make their tax-haven status for corporate money protected and permanent.

Does that sound like fixing anything in the future?

Obama and his administration have repeatedly shown that they lie, and can't be trusted to deliver anything that really benefits real people as long as there are corporations that stand to make a profit instead. He isn't a progressive, and this Insurance Industry Give-away legislation certainly won't be revisited under his administration unless they find another way to give our money away.

[Kermitt Gribble]

18. Exactly.

We are promised these things in campaign after campaign, but once elected, we hear things such as 'the political climate just isn't right', or 'we just don't have the votes'.

[BrklynLiberal]

10. Right. Now that you mentionit..whatever happened to all those fixes that were going to happen

when we got a Democratic Congress...and a Democratic President?

HUH!??!

[Coyote_Bandit]

12. And we could have

passed a better fucking bill to start with. But we didn't. Nothing about that inspires hope that positive changes will be made in the near future.

[JDPriestly]

13. Kermitt Griibble, are you prepared to run for political office?

If not, are you prepared to work to get a candidate you trust elected as representative in your district? If you are already active or running for office, I beg your pardon. If not, get to know other Democrats in your area and work to get good people elected. It's time to tell some of the party hacks to move on.

[rucky]

15. I'm glad the bill passed, but I won't be sending a fruit basket to Congress any time soon.

We need to hold their feet to the fire on this one. The worst thing that can happen is leading them to think they just fixed healthcare and their work is done, here.

[MisterP]

16. don't forget the torturers, war-starters, wars, TARP, and Bush education that were going

to be reversed

or is it good when "we" do it, like firebombing cities and detonating inhabited apartments that supposedly have Hezbollah leaders in them?

[Kermitt Gribble]

17. Great additions to the list.

Many DUers think it's great when we do it - though I don't think they quite grasp what is actually going on. They are blinded by their team spirit and trust in our Democratic politicians.

[Kermitt Gribble]

22. Could also add the Military Commisions Act of 2006. n/t

[dtotire]

19. This Is The Way I Look At It n/t

[rug]

20. As soon as Democrats control the White House and both Houses of Congress.

[ProSense]

23. Here's an article everyone should read:

Jacob Hacker on a public option.

[ThomCat]

24. Seen it and read it a few times now.

I don't agree with it. It is just more generalizations saying, "You should take an optimistic view of this bill because nothing negative is set in stone. Optimism is more important than the best calculations of the experts."

Well, nothing positive is set in stone yet either. But the forces lines up to make sure that the Insurance Companies come out ahead first and foremost are legion in DC, including many of our elected officials, and they aren't weakening or going away. If we can put everything out on the table, we would see that there are vastly more forced pushing to make sure the negative stuff happens than the positive stuff.

Republicans are announcing that they will spend the development years delaying development of any real roll-out of a public option. Democrats are lining up to make sure that if it ever gets rolled out, insurance companies will not and cannot be inconvenienced in any way by this. In fact, they are making sure that corporations will see so much profit that they will agree to go along with it. But those profits have to come from somewhere.

Will all those guaranteed profits come from lowered health care costs? No. Nothing proposed offers any hope or even any goal of lowering costs. They official goal in the text of the bill is to reduce the rate at which costs are going up. So the insurance industry keeps all their obscene profits, as long as the rate of increase slows down a bit.

If people are expecting future step by step improvements, how exactly is that possible when the first step is always going to be appeasing the insurance industry, and assuring their continued profitability and survival? At what point do we get to cut the portion of every healthcare dollar that goes to insurance company profits, bonuses and executive pay? And how will our spineless dems ever get the insurance industry to agree to this?

We already saw very clearly that if the insurance industry feels even slightly worried that their profit margin might go down even slightly our politicians will line up to immediately reassure them. So if profits can't go down, where to cost reductions come from? The only possible answer is service delays and service cuts. Any way you try to spin that, it is denied health care.

Our own party has put this whole process in shackles that guarantee that we can't come out any further ahead because the insurance industry must approve of any changes and be assured of future growth and increased profitability. That just cannot happen while providing more healthcare and/or lowering costs.

[Fuzz]

25. That's how these things work. Slowly, over time. Kick at the darkness until it bleeds daylight.

[Horse with no Name]

26. Purist.

:thumbsup: