Forcing us to pay for tickets for the Titanic and the telling us we are saved.

[Nikki Stone1]

REPOST:

Healthcare Predictions:

And I still think the current healthcare bills are totally wrong headed. Here is what I see happening with the healthcare debacle:

The public option, whatever it is, will be a fig leaf to cover up what is essentially a Federally enforced purchase of an inferior product, which does not guarantee excellent health care but does guarantee excellent profits for insurance companies. We're being made to pay corporations for our very existence on this earth. I think there will be more bills along these lines.

For those who are indigent or uninsurable, the government (ie, our taxes) will pay the insurance companies. And it's the middle class and working classes who really pay the taxes in this country, not the wealthy, and it is these classes that will be paying the taxes to support the public option for indigent and uninsurable. So in the end, the full cost of healthcare for everyone is being carried by the middle and working classes who will also have to pay the insurance companies. Since healthcare must be "self-sustaining" (i.e., not cause debt, unlike wars and Wall Street bailouts), it has to be paid for up front. Much of that is coming from US, the taxpayer, and some is coming from Medicare cuts, even though the Democrats are not really talking about that. My gut instinct is that Medicare will eventually be transferred to this new system, so that we will be paying insurance companies until we die. And the health insurance company death panels will continue to exist.

...This health care scheme involves:

1. Mandates, especially for the young (18-30 year olds) who don't get sick much. Their premiums will support the the care of everyone else: the old, those with pre-existing conditions, and the like. Wait until those young Obama voters who call me an "Obama hater" realize that they will have to spend their own money buying insurance, unless their employer carries it for them.

2. Taxes on the middle and working classes for a "public option" so that the hospitals don't lose so much money to charity cases.

3. No real cost controls. The public option is not real competition since most Americans won't be eligible for it.

The key is the mandates. Without them, the whole scheme falls apart. Without the buy-in of the young and healthy, insurance companies can't afford (so they say) to insure older and sicker people and still make a profit. This is why Obama had to be either misinformed or lying when he said no mandates (except on children) and no new taxes if you make under $250K.


This is not healthcare reform, and it is not merely rearranging chairs on the Titanic. It is making us all pay for tickets on the Titanic, and then saying that we're all saved.


You can see the responses I got for these ideas here:

http://demopedia.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6860124


Now I have another prediction:

Medicare will be put on this same plan for those of us in GenX and perhaps even some boomers. Social Security will become "privatized" as well and we will all be required to put away money for retirement. IRAs (a good idea for those making a decent living) will become mandatory. Our tax dollars will still go into a pool for the very poor, but will not go into any kind of pool for us.

Once Medicare and SS are taken off the Federal books, the military budget is free to skyrocket:

From Seamus Cook:

"...Obama’s Treasury Secretary, Timothy Geithner, has been particularly busy promoting the future cutbacks, repeating that “the country must live within its mean;” “deficits must be brought down dramatically” — something that will “require very hard choices.”

The solutions Obama has proposed are the ones that Geithner is actually referring to when he says “very hard choices.” Last January, Obama told the conservative Washington Post that, to lower deficits, he would “reform entitlement programs” — social security, Medicare, etc. Reform in this case means to eliminate, or drastically reduce. The Washington Post reports:

“President-elect Barack Obama pledged yesterday to shape a new Social Security and Medicare "bargain" with the American people, saying that the nation's long-term economic recovery cannot be attained unless the government finally gets control over its most costly entitlement programs.”

When will this happen? The Post answers: “ administration will begin confronting the issues of entitlement reform and long-term budget deficits soon after it jump-starts job growth and the stock market.” (January 16, 2009). The upward swing in the stock market gave Geithner the green light to begin his anti-entitlement public relations campaign. ..."

[AllentownJake]

1. The truth hurts

but the truth is the truth...glad to see Timmeh is focused on programs that help people and not the defense department.

[Nikki Stone1]

2. Wall Street is totally in control.

And no one likes the truth. They needed a Democratic President to get rid of Medicare, and that's what Obama is going to do.

[TheWraith]

14. Oh please. Take off the tin foil hat. nt

[inna]

16. i'm afraid that you're correct.

:(

KR for the sad truth.

[ipaint]

31. +1 for the truth. n/t

[Bonobo]

3. You say most Americans will not be eligible.

That is not my read. Why do you say that? Can you provide a link or quote from the bill that makes you say that?

[Nikki Stone1]

4. I said most Americans will not be eligible for the public "option"--and they won't

We're looking at a small number who are targeted for that "option", which is really a dumping ground for those who can't buy insurance.

[Bonobo]

10. You did not provide evidence or ANY reason why you believe that.

You just repeated a statement.

WHY do you think so? It is not the way I see it.

[Xipe Totec]

6. +1. And to make it easier, here is a link to the bill

Perhaps the OP will be kind enough to cite page and line numbers he finds objectionable.


http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=111_cong_bills&docid=f:h3962ih.txt.pdf

[Bonobo]

7. Yeah, I would like to see that. nt

[Nikki Stone1]

8. A better link:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6952546&mesg_id=6952546

"The entire point of a public option was to provide competition against insurance companies to drive down costs and provide an alternative choice to citizens. A REAL public option would have been open to all Americans, it would have rates tied to Medicare, and it would be implemented in a relatively short period of time after the bill becomes law. The legislation contains none of these mandates

The current reform labeled as a public option:

- only covers 2% of the population
- will LIKELY be administrated by the private insurance companies
- is estimated to be priced HIGHER then private insurance plans

The public option as now become an ORWELLIAN TERM."

[Bonobo]

12. A better link is a link to a DU thread with more unsubstantiated claims? nt

[Nikki Stone1]

11. Ok, Xipe Totec: The alleged "public option" is named "National high risk pool program" (pg 5)

(The rest of us will be either covered by our employers (or others listed in the bill, see pg 12) OR will become part of the "Health Insurance Exchange" in which we choose an insurance company from the pool and pay insurance.

To be continued....

[TheWraith]

15. The high risk pool is SEPARATE FROM THE PUBLIC OPTION.

They are NOT the same thing.

[Nikki Stone1]

22. No, but it will be the only one left.

I'm willing to bet serious money on that.

[Bonobo]

25. That's some serious backtracking there!

[Xipe Totec]

23. Absolutely correct. The high risk pool is defined:

From Pages 16 thu 19 of the act:

(c) ELIGIBILITY.—For purposes of this section, the term "eligible individual" means an individual—
(1) who—
(A) is not eligible for

(i) benefits under title XVIII, XIX, or XXI of the Social Security Act; or
(ii) coverage under an employment based health plan (not including coverage under a COBRA continuation provision, as defined in section 107(d)(1)); and

(B) who—
(i) is an eligible individual under section 2741(b) of the Public Health Service Act; or
(ii) is medically eligible for the program by virtue of being an individual described in subsection (d) at any time during the 6-month period ending on the date the individual applies for high-risk pool coverage under this section;

(2) who is the spouse or dependent of an individual who is described in paragraph (1); or
(3) who has not had health insurance coverage or coverage under an employment-based health plan for at least the 6-month period immediately preceding the date of the individual’s application for
high-risk pool coverage under this section.

For purposes of paragraph (1)(A)(ii), a person who is in a waiting period as defined in section 2701(b)(4) of the Public Health Service Act shall not be considered to be eligible for coverage under an employment-based health plan.

(d) MEDICALLY ELIGIBLE REQUIREMENTS.—For purposes of subsection (c)(1)(B)(ii), an individual described in this subsection is an individual—
(1) who, during the 6-month period ending on the date the individual applies for high-risk pool coverage under this section applied for individual health insurance coverage and—

(A) was denied such coverage because of a preexisting condition or health status; or
(B) was offered such coverage—
(i) under terms that limit the coverage for such a preexisting condition; or
(ii) at a premium rate that is above the premium rate for high risk pool coverage under this section; or
(2) who has an eligible medical condition as defined by the Secretary.

In making a determination under paragraph (1) of whether an individual was offered individual coverage at a premium rate above the premium rate for high risk pool coverage, the Secretary shall make adjustments to offset differences in premium rating that are attributable solely to differences in age rating.

[Junkdrawer]

9. Obama: "(Public Option) would only be an option for those who don’t have insurance."

Full Paragraph from Obama's speech to the joint congress:

...

Now, I have no interest in putting insurance companies out of business. They provide a legitimate service, and employ a lot of our friends and neighbors. I just want to hold them accountable. The insurance reforms that I’ve already mentioned would do just that. But an additional step we can take to keep insurance companies honest is by making a not-for-profit public option available in the insurance exchange. Let me be clear – it would only be an option for those who don’t have insurance. No one would be forced to choose it, and it would not impact those of you who already have insurance. In fact, based on Congressional Budget Office estimates, we believe that less than 5% of Americans would sign up.

...

http://politics.theatlantic.com/2009/09/internal_dnc_memo_on_health_care_speech_focus_groups.php

[Bonobo]

13. Here is a portion about eligibility from a summary of the bill's contents.

"Eligibility. People are eligible to enter the Exchange and purchase health insurance on their own as long as they are not enrolled in employer sponsored insurance, Medicare or Medicaid. The Exchange is also open to businesses, starting with small firms and growing over time."

[Why Syzygy]

5. Thank you for telling the unpopular truth.

If we the People had our rightful power in this sick nation, we would have Universal Health Care, as was PROMISED! Not Universal Taxation Without Representation, as delivered.

[Bonobo]

17. Still waiting for you to substantiate your claim that only 2% will be able to join. nt

[Nikki Stone1]

21. I have actually been reading the bill and was providing you a full analysis

And then thought, fuck it, let him read it himself.

So go read it.

[Bonobo]

24. Ha ha. Nice one. I've read enough to know that you haven't read it. nt

[BrklynLiberal]

18. I am appalled to know that Pres Obama used the rightwing meme "entitlements"

to describe Social Security and Medicare!!!

What about the goddamn military budget!!! This truly pisses me off.......:mad: :puke: :wtf: :grr: :nuke: :thumbsdown: :banghead:

[DemBones DemBones]

19. Excellent meme.

[Nikki Stone1]

20. Here's some good info on the alleged public option:

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2009/08/12/us/politics/0812-plan-comparison.html#tab=3

Would create a new government insurance plan that would negotiate rates with doctors and hospitals, rather than using Medicare rates set by the government.
The public plan would have to offer different levels of benefits, covering between 70 to 95 percent of health care expenses.

Like private plans, the public plan must offer the same benefits, comply with the same insurance market reforms, follow provider network requirements and other consumer protections. The plan would not provide abortion coverage.

Health care providers would not be required to participate in the plan. But the bill assumes that providers participating in Medicare are participants of the public plan, unless they opt out.

The government would allocate $2 billion in start-up money but the public plan must be financially self-sustaining. The bill would require premiums, paid by beneficiaries, to cover the plan’s cost. The government would also provide loans to start up non-profit insurance cooperatives to compete with private insurers and the public plan.

The legislation would also create a public long-term-care program that would provide cash assistance — not less than an average of $50 per day — to people who become disabled. The program would be financed through premiums deducted from paychecks of people who choose to participate. Workers would have to contribute for at least five years before they can collect benefits.

[jtrockville]

26. #1: ".,,unless their employer carries it for them."

I don't know about you, but my employer "carries" insurance for me - I still have to spend my own money to buy it.

[ncteechur]

27. Well that is one of the most ridiculous analogies I have heard.

[Mithreal]

28. K&R

[Vidar]

29. I hope your predictions are wrong, but I fear not. Recommended.

[Orwellian_Ghost]

30. K&R

[Octafish]

32. Funny how Uncle Sam found $12 Trillion lying around for Geithner's chums on Wall Street...

...and comparitively NOTHING for the rest of America.

That money could've paid off most every damn household mortgage in the country and had enough left over for universal health care, as well as change the face of the nation and the future health of the planet.

[Mari333]

33. yet, so many on here seem to be happy with the crumbs from the massah's table

of course, we have plenty of money to spend on WARS WARS WARS.

[Orwellian_Ghost]

34. Bump