EVERY OTHER LIBERAL VOTED FOR THIS BILL!

[Bicoastal]

Don't you guys research before posting? The Dems who voted Nay were, save for Kucinich, ALL Conservative Democrats. Many of you are, without knowing it, castigating progressives and applauding Blue Dogs like Heath Shuler and Lincoln Davis, which you are perfectly in your right to do so--it's just odd.

Grayson voted Yea. Ellison voted Yea. Frank voted Yea. Waxman voted Yea. My congressman, as well as every other congressman in liberal New York City, voted Yea. When you say, "Let's primary everyone who voted for this!" you're throwing just about the entire party under the bus--a technique which worked so well for Republicans in last week's election. Are they not liberals anymore? Perhaps not, but it doesn't leave us with an awful lot of remaining representation--basically, Dennis Kucinich vs. the World.

My point? I'm still undecided on my support of the recent HRC House Bill, but I'm getting really annoyed with DU'ers inaccurately portraying the vote as Moderate sellouts vs. Liberal heroes, when it really was the Democratic Party vs. so-called "DINOS".

Plus Dennis.

[Barack_America]

1. My representative, an unabashed liberal in support of single-payer voted "Yea".

Why? Because our predominantly poor and underinsured district could not afford him not to.

Thank you, Rep. Fattah.

[Go2Peace]

29. Yes, what a contrast to the "white hats" that represented us so well! Damn Kucinich!

He took a calculated and PRINCIPLED stand. He never threatened the bill, he always fought and continues to fight hard for the poor and working classes. You do a disservice to TRUTH.

He should have behaved like the other part of the MAJORITY, and watered down reform against the wishes of the public? No, he did the right thing. We need people like him to keep the real goals clear.

[Barack_America]

31. Fox is touting the how close the vote was in the House..,

...In order to rally their troops for the Senate fight.

DK absolutely threatened this bill.

[Go2Peace]

42. I don't watch Fox. Why would you care what they say anyway?

[gtar100]

2. K&R - for clearing things up.

[Aramchek]

3. Dennis is willing to let people die to prove a point. Where's the compassion?

[POAS]

7. It's personal for me in that

I can benefit from even this flawed bill.

Dennis, once my Mayor in Cleveland, might as well have looked me in the eye and said die because my principle trumps your life!

How many others would he sacrifice on the altar of purity.

[Aramchek]

8. the Kucinich Altar of Purity... many here worship at it

[bahrbearian]

10. There is going to be alot of uninsured people dying between now and 2013

Single payer Now.

[Aramchek]

14. 'Single Payer Now' accomplishes nothing at all

Not a damn thing.

[tonysam]

52. Single-payer isn't going to happen, period, as long

as insurance companies are allowed to bribe politicians.

[ProleNoMore]

57. Shear Defeatism - If That's What You Believe Then That Is What You Probably Will Get

eom

[Egnever]

32. Not true

the is a "high risk pool" available immediately.

[Cleita]

16. So they are going to die anyway.

Mandated insurance to buy into a plan with a large deductible means people who can't afford health insurance will be using their food money to not only pay for premiums but they won't be able to go to the doctor anyway cause they can't afford either the deductible or co-pays if that kicks in. Subsidies won't cover the majority of working class Americans who will probably not qualify for them because they aren't poor enough.

[rucky]

4. Who on earth suggested that?

[Bicoastal]

5. I came directly from an OP that said, quote: "I applaud the Democrats who voted against this bill."

And they then said, "Many of the people who voted for this bill will face fierce primary challenges, and who knows-maybe more progressive candidates will get their seats." Even though the MOST conservative Democrats voted NO!

It's just plain ignorance.

[Ikonoklast]

6. Kucinich voted with the Republicans, the Teabaggers, and the Birfers.

Hooray for Dennis.

His smug must keep him warm at night.

[emulatorloo]

13. Well I wouldn't go that far. He is a good guy

My guess is he voted no to make a statement, and knew it was safe to do so because the Dems had the votes to pass it.

[NoPasaran]

27. A vote is a Yes or a No

It's not an essay question.

I'm sure Michelle Bachmann's vote (the same as DK's, by the way) was meant as a statement too.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

9. Keith Ellison, my rep, voted for it.

He's about as progressive a Democrat as there is right now. Collin Peterson, another Minnesota rep, voted against it, and he votes with Republicans so often that he might as well be one. I'm not crazy about the bill, but if the Republicans and the Blue Dogs hate it, there must be at least some good in it.

[PSPS]

11. Don't be silly

Just because republicans are against it doesn't mean it's good and we should support it. It's a horribly flawed bill that will, in fact, provide no better coverage than people can get today. In many ways, it will be worse.

The only beneficiary of this legislation is the private health insurance racket. All will be compelled by the federal government, one way or another using their own money or the taxpayer's, to buy a defective product -- private health insurance. There are too many loopholes and poison pills in the bill. What they call a "public option" isn't public at all. It is merely a ghetto for those whom the private insurers don't want to cover anyway, so it will fail miserably. In the industry, it's called an "adverse risk pool" and it just won't work.

[NYCGirl]

19. If the private health insurance companies are so much better off, then the GOP

should love it, right?

[PSPS]

41. The GOP has said that they will not vote in favor of any democratic legislation of any kind.

Their main goal is to undermine Obama politically, so they'll vote against anything he proposes. It's no secret -- they've said this in public. In this case, they'll vote against any health care bill regardless of its content.

[NYCGirl]

43. So then it doesn't matter to them whether the bill is good or bad, right? NT

[goclark]

60. Good point ~ if the GOP is in bed with the Insurance Companies

They should be all over this Bill with YES.

[emulatorloo]

12. THANKS FOR THE REALITY CHECK.

Seriously - Kick and Rec

[HughMoran]

15. Oh, they know what they're doing

Those "Republican progressives" are not here to help, if you know what I mean.

[kid a]

17. good point k&r

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

18. AND THEY WERE WRONG! See, all-caps means it's true.

[HughMoran]

23. You're saying all the liberal Democrats that voted for this bill were wrong?

Please tell me you're just joking.

[Waiting For Everyman]

20. Group-think much?

[Bicoastal]

21. I might ask you the same.

[HughMoran]

22. It takes a lot of nerve to support liberal Democrats on a site dedicated to the Democratic Party huh

Group think much?

[Waiting For Everyman]

28. Oh, I get it. A minority can't possibly be right by definition. Hence my statement.

Yes, you'll get something (maybe). But you've been token-bribed into losing much more. And the bribe will be taken back very easily - because we smear those who stand up for us. Yep, that's a smart move alright.

[HughMoran]

33. One-sided rationalizations won't win you any points with me - I'm not buying

Sorry, we could go back and forth on this, but I will have to just point you back to my original reply to you. It's the hypocrisy.

[Waiting For Everyman]

37. I'm not buying that one person can't be right in disagreeing with many.

If you can't agree with that, then we can agree on nothing. Fine by me.

[HughMoran]

38. It's the hypocrisy

So if I give you the "one person can be right" argument, suddenly raging hypocrisy is OK?

[Waiting For Everyman]

44. What hypocrisy? You mean, compared to Dems calling this HCR?

Now THERE's some hypocrisy. Anything DK could do pales in comparison. But I see nothing of the sort from him. He hasn't changed his positions. He simply wouldn't cave and "go along to get along". That's hypocrisy now? Not by my Websters' it isn't.

[quaker bill]

59. It is possible

just less probable.

[Zomby Woof]

24. McDermott and Waxman voted yes too

They are authentic progressive Democrats with a proven track record. McDermott has been an advocate of single-payer for YEARS, but I suppose because he voted for the bill, he is a (let's see if I can get the jargon right) "corporatist DLC sell-out whore".

[HughMoran]

39. You got it

So long as the words "corpratist" and DLC are in there. "Whore" is just gravy :)

[Luminous Animal]

25. In 2001, every liberal in the Senate voted for the PATRIOT Act.

Except for Feingold.

[Zomby Woof]

26. This thread is about the House

A very different animal from the Senate.

Yes, the liberals in the Senate who voted for the Unpatriotic Act were wrong, but check the House voting record, and there were plenty more dissenters from the liberal ranks.

[HughMoran]

36. Well then I guess that tells us something significant

:crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

[tabasco]

30. Too bad you have to point this out on DU.

But this place has become a festering pool of trollism.

[HughMoran]

34. It wasn't "every other liberal" it was EVERY liberal

:hi:

[LWolf]

35. AND AS LONG AS THEY ARE WILLING TO DO SO,

WE WILL NEVER SEE UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE IN THIS NATION!

[DemBones DemBones]

40. Kucinich also voted against the Patriot Act and the Iraq war --

quick, name another liberal who did that!

I trust Kucinich's judgement on this lousy health insurance bill, too. The idea that any health insurance bill is a good one is insane.

[BumRushDaShow]

55. Barbara Lee

who not only did that but went as far back as to vote "no" for any use of force after 9/11 (including voting against the first authorization of use of force that became law on 9/18/01). She was the only member of Congress (from either side) to do so: http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2001/09/alone-hill

The vote in the Senate was 98 - 0 and in the House, it was 420 - 1 and Kucinich was not that one. She was. And she was harassed unmercifully for doing that.

Yet she voted for this bill.

I have been a strong Kucinich supporter and I agree with him being the conscience of the progressive movement. His exhortations are sorely needed in order to set the scale and remind people where the left should be considering how what was once "center", has been lurched to the far right. However sometimes you have to compromise to get a foot in the door and the Progressive caucus seems to have taken that route.

[paulsby]

45. kucinich worship knows no logic

it's like arguing with creationists.

he can do no wrong.

[PurityOfEssence]

46. Dennisites have a much better record on this board than the Barackolytes

Having a regular poster here since the summer of '01, it's TRUE: there are characteristics of the various camps that tend to hold true. Kucinich supporters have traditionally been rather mild, accepting, and honorable, if a bit on the sanctimonious side.

They have not tended to be as blisteringly dismissive and outright combative as Deanies in '03, as scorched-earth triumphal as Clark-barkers in '03 and early '04, nor as supremely dogmatic and cult-like as Obama supporters.

Kucinich is too far to the left for my taste, and some of his policies are completely impractical, but he's a man of principle. He has, on occasion, voted against abortion, and although I disagree with this stance (that he's evolved away from and explained) it is in keeping with his Catholicism and stance on life: he's against the death penalty and a vegetarian. There's a consistency and moral through-line here, and yet he doesn't strut and puff as one of the morally superior. (There is a bit of a whiff of this about him and his followers, but dammit, they ARE moral, and much of that sniveling is from those who realize they're on the short end of the ethical stick.)

He voted for some of the early moves on impeachment of Bill Clinton, too, and he did so out of a respect for the law, regardless of partisan affiliation.

As for his supporters, the consistency of their positions is at least founded on SOMETHING. Mr. Obama seems to be on some vague crusade of oneness that makes sure nobody is ever left not liking him, and the choke-hold of corporate power structures are a given for him, not just a necessary evil or unavoidable reality.

I fully understand his vote here, and we'll see how history sorts this out.

The acid test of all this is whether the poor, working poor and middle class get better care and are less at risk. We already KNOW that the insurance companies are going to do just fine; that's the skeleton upon which this bill was built.

[paulsby]

48. i agree with that 100%

i'm not sayin' the barackolytes are any better. they ARE probably worse.

i respect kucinich, fwiw. but, like you, he's too far to my left for my taste, either.

is this HCR bill perfect?

hell no.

is it better than what we got now?

absolutely.

and i say that as somebody with a phenomenal cadillac plan

it won't help ME, but it will help society

[BzaDem]

49. Republicans vote in principle too.

That doesn't mean they shouldn't all be thrown out.

[tonysam]

53. Dennis is a politician, pure and simple. He's no better than the rest of them.

The big problem with the Kucinich worshipers is just that--they are engaging in hero worship.

Politicians aren't heroes typically--and they sure as heck aren't gods.

[noamnety]

47. Almost every other liberal voted for the Iraq War Resolution.

Perhaps that's not the best measure of whether a vote is good or bad.

[Cherchez la Femme]

50. What matters the reason for a vote anymore?

Pure black & white: if the vote's No it's BAAAAAAD!

Sheeple in DU, who'da thunk?

[tonysam]

51. But. But. But. They aren't "real" Democrats like Dennis

They don't stand for principle.

:sarcasm:

[tabasco]

54. The utopians gave us Nixon

and they're going to give us fucking Huckabee or some other nightmare.

[FLAprogressive]

56. ahem, single-payer advocate Eric Massa voted no.

[pampango]

58. And all the republicans (save one newbie) voted against it. n/t