So this is what we're willing to settle for

[MadHound]

Healthcare reform that does prevent excluding people from coverage based on pre-existing conditions and/or lifetime limits. These are the two biggest, positive reforms.

In exchange for this, we're giving up a true, strong public option, since the one proposed will only cover two percent of the population, will most likely be administered by the private insurance industry, and will cost more than private insurance.:puke:

We have also just handed the insurance industry a mandated monopoly, one that is enforced by fines and possibly jail time.:puke:

We have severely restricted abortion rights and availability:puke:

And yet we're supposed to accept this POS and call it good.

I don't think so. If this is what we're going to get out this so called "reform", then the Democratic party has, once again, acted against its own best interests and against the best interests of the people of this country. Once again, they are proving that they are just the flip side of the same coin, just as beholden to their corporate masters as the 'Pugs are.

How sad that so many so called Dems are willing to accept this shit and call it prime rib. How low this party has fallen that we now settle for this. FDR must be spinning in his grave.

[ixion]

1. I'll call it what it is: garbage

kicked and recommended.

[Writer]

2. And yet, it passed by only five votes in the House.

I'd hate to think what we WOULDN'T have without making those concessions. That would be absolutely nothing.

Party isn't the dividing line between politicians; ideology is.

[MadHound]

8. And yet it has been demonstrated time and again, with the right leadership,

You can accomplish great things. Sadly, the leadership that has been exhibited by the likes of Pelosi, Reid and Obama has been pathetic. They have been badly beaten in a game where they held all of the advantages. If we had leadership like that of FDR or LBJ we would have, at the least, a strong government run public option. Instead we're settling for this pabulum of privately run "public" option.

This isn't about ideology, this is about the lack of leadership, or better yet, corporately compromised leadership.

[tonysam]

45. Actually, it isn't even ideology. It has to do with which politicians

are most on the take from insurance companies, pure and simple.

We HAVE to have true public financing of elections.

[Xipe Totec]

3. This is not Prime Lib; this is pragmatic sausage

Welcome to the sausage factory floor.

[MadHound]

10. No, this is simply the latest exihibition

Of the two party/same corporate master system of government at work. Corporately controlled Dems are no better than corporately controlled 'Pugs, they both leave we the people screwed, blued and tattoed.

[Xipe Totec]

13. Go read the bill, then we can discuss it.

Here is a link:

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=111_cong_bills&docid=f:h3962ih.txt.pdf

[MadHound]

28. Already have, what do you want to talk about? n/t

[Xipe Totec]

30. Cite the pages and lines you find objectionable n/t

[glitch]

11. Shame about the bovine spongiform encephalopathy

Oh well, a Party's gotta eat! :puke:

[Xipe Totec]

18. You don't have to eat

If you don't like the bill you can continue with whatever you have right now, which is exactly what you would have if the bill had failed.

Right?

[ncteechur]

4. FDR would be absolutely overjoyed. I would ask you to read Paul Begala's piece about SS.

LInk


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/12/AR2009081202575.html

[MadHound]

14. Having extensively studied FDR, his opinions and politics,

Rest assured, FDR would be appalled by this bill, when he wasn't laughing his ass off about the so called "leadership" that has been exhibiting during this debacle.

And referencing articles written by DLC hacks does not bolster you argument.

[glitch]

21. :) for " And referencing articles written by DLC hacks does not bolster you argument." nt

[tabasco]

52. You apparently study a lot without understanding.

Either that or you are lying.

[Oregone]

20. The Democrats fought Nixon's version of this reform in the 70s

And that was much closer to a party in FDRs image than the current one.

[MadHound]

24. Exactly, we're now being saddled with Nixoncare

What a sad state this party has become.

[glitch]

41. Those who fail to remember history are doomed to be conned, forever apparently. nt

[Life Long Dem]

5. Has the line in the sand been drawn?

I don't think this is over.

[mike_c]

6. this bill is a repudiation of democratic principles and dems should be ashamed of it....

I agree with you, 100 percent. The cheerleaders around here love "winning" so much that they'll crow for days about winning a shit sandwich. Well, that's what they've won. Insurance company executives all over America are breathing easier this morning and thinking "The senate bill will be even better for us!"

[GreenArrow]

46. Well, you know how it goes...

When life hands you a lemon, make lemon-aid. When life hands you a mound of shit, make lemon-aid!

[Greyhound]

7. A trillion dollar fig leaf so Democrats can pretend they're still relevant to working people.

This POS is completely one-sided, a gigantic present to the insurance industry that forces tens of millions into their tender mercies, guarantees profits, and requires nothing that their lawyers can't easily eliminate in court all wrapped up in beautiful bag of nothing for the suckers paying the bill.

[sharesunited]

9. You climb a ladder one rung at a time.

You can curse the ladder for having so many rungs, but unless you ascend them one by one you don't arrive at the top.

Lots of fights to come to tweak and turn it.

And what I see with the madate and the proper ju jitsu is a path to (1) regulation of policy premiums, (2) regulation of return on investment a la utility companies, and (3) the harnassing of great pools of private capital for a public purpose.

[poverlay]

12. I agree. We're NoT going to stop fighting for what we want/need/believe in & they will get tired

of fighting us.

I'm not happy about this either, but every little bit helps.

WE
WILL
NOT
STOP
FIGHTING

[glitch]

16. You're supposed to climb UP the rungs, not down.

Then again, I suppose it depends on where you really want to go.

http://www.truthout.org/021509F

[Life Long Dem]

37. How many mops do you think we'll need for the next term?

The President can't leave the keys to the House and expect to return with a clean House.

[glitch]

42. How many mops to clean up a tsunami? Can't even begin to imagine. nt

[Lars39]

17. You have to first make sure the ladder isn't on shaky ground, though.

[MadHound]

22. The trouble is this bill has eliminated most of the rungs remaining above us.

With this so called victory, the issue of true health care reform will not be revisited for decades, if not generations. Instead politician will claim that the problem is solved and continue to ignore the amount of bloodletting and wealth transfer being carried on due to the mandatory monopoly they handed to the insurance industry.

[Individualist]

26. A ladder placed on quicksand is worse than useless.

[stray cat]

15. Urge the dems to vote it down then

[Individualist]

19. DLC isn't just willing to settle; they love it

After all, the insurance companies helped author this POS bill.

:puke:

[Warren Stupidity]

23. FDR put off dealing with apartheid, conceding everytime to the segregationist wing.

He also created concentration camps and put the entire west coast japanese population into them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franklin_D._Roosevelt's_record_on_civil_rights

[MadHound]

27. And when his liberal base threatened to desert him

He started being a political pragmatists and threw us bones directly from the Socialist Party, namely Social Security and Unemployment Insurance.

Your attempt to portray FDR as spineless as modern day Dems is pathetic.

[Warren Stupidity]

59. He was spineless with respect to civil rights.

But I do agree that when faced with a threat from the left, a real threat, he did move left. What does that tell us?

[Warpy]

25. This is our foot in the door

To push that door open a little more will take work in eliminating conservatives from Congress from both parties.

We don't even have to get rid of all of them. We just have to be able to frighten the rest and remind them that they serve at our pleasure, too.

[MadHound]

31. Umm, getting these conservative Dems into line is also the job of the leadership,

They failed. Instead Obama let Congress run away with this and didn't jump in until it was too late. Pelosi and Reid are lacking in spines. This bill should have been a done deal before the August recess, but due to lack of leadership, that deadline passed, giving the rabid RW time to twist the message and scare everybody shitless.

[mike_c]

34. the democratic party controls both houses of congress and the exec branch...

...and the best they can do is get their foot into the door for a good mashing? That is pathetic, IMO.

[Warpy]

40. The DLC is still largely in power

and, while they're a tick better than Republicans, they're pro business, corporatist, conservative.

So yes, it's the best we can expect from this congress. If we want something better, we're going to have to change congress.

[AllentownJake]

29. Foot in the door, sausage, don't turn a battleship around overnight, chess master

Did I miss any of the talking points.

[chimpymustgo]

47. "We'll fix it later."

[AllentownJake]

48. Thanks I missed that one

[RBInMaine]

32. You nutty naysayers with your electoral death wish can go piss on your boots ! We are sick of it !

[Ruby the Liberal]

33. "We have severely restricted abortion rights and availability"

I keep seeing this, and forgive my stupidity on this question, but is it common for abortions to be covered under insurance in our current system?

I can't recall ever having seen an abortion clause in any of my previous employer-based plans. One, back in the late 1990s cut off birth control and there was a huge backlash where they agreed to let it back in.

Anyone know?

[happy2bhere]

50. I'm not sure

but if the plan offers free birth control, I think people should pay for their own abortions unless medically necessary.

[Better Today]

35. It's just a bill, it isn't over yet. DON'T SETTLE, keep pushing to get the final bills

better before it becomes law. Is everyone in this country entirely ignorant about the steps that still remain and the amount of time it may take to get from here to there?

So what, you're all pissed because you're going to have to keep pounding out our message(s)? Get real, and more importantly, get busy making noise about those aspects you find unacceptable.

SHeesh.

[Sebastian Doyle]

36. Do you honestly believe

That the forced corporate mandates and the Stupak bullshit will be taken out of the house bill, and EVERYTHING Baucus wrote will be taken out of the Senate bill?

Because that is the minimum of what would have to happen in a final bill for this to be called even a minor improvement over the status quo.

[jtrockville]

38. The "two biggest, positive reforms" mean nothing without price controls

What good is having something available if the price tag is beyond your reach? If we extend that way of thinking to the housing market, we shouldn't have ANY homeless people because there are PLENTY of houses for sale.

[bridgit]

39. I think 'we' didn't understand what was even possible, not as a group...

The insatiable back & forth was easy for the opposition to begin pounding wedges between...and so they did. They damn near turned it back - the whole thing - they made the absence of a coherent position into the image of indecision. And that's coming back round too unless someone pulls this scattered Dem mindset together

'we' are leaving the impression 'we' are not able to be pleased. And that is able to paint a pic of being aloof and detached enough as it is i.e. a thread nearby rails against the inclusion of restricted access to abortion services via federal funding. Federal funding of abortion services always ran a high, high probability of never occurring

To little understand that is to acknowledge no difference between jumping your pony over and round streams and obstacles on palatial fox hunts through wooded estates and trying to jump the Snake River on the back of Barney the Dinosaur...but those are just some metaphors

As to why any residue of negotiations can be less when the dust settles let it be known: someone, in this case HCR, was sitting not just across the table from us fucking with shit, but on our side tinkering

That can be negotiating too. If we'd have had a unified position staked out with viable gimme's, give backs, negotiable points and inalienable positions we may not be asking ourselves today: "How the fuck did THIS happen!?"

[Skidmore]

43. This is where we established a bulkhead and from where we will

move forward.

[AllentownJake]

49. A new idiotic analogy

Thanks!

[Skidmore]

51. Well, let's go backward then.

Have it your way.

[AllentownJake]

54. We are going backwards in my opinion

but hey he's a chess master steering a battleship that is just trying to get it's foot in the door so that we can land on the beach head.

[Skidmore]

55. I'm sure you'll help us get there full steam ahead.

I vote for no health care for any body anytime.

[AllentownJake]

56. The choice of a bad bill that will enrage the public

over no bill that will keep the status quo...tough choice.

Here is what I think, and I hope I'm wrong, this 7 months of debate that has ended in a bill that is disgusting, has led to the rebuilding of the GOP.

So by pushing for this 10% reform effort now, the party has essentially taken out a defibilator and given a dying party a heart beat again.

We'll know in 2 years, but from where I'm sitting the cost benefit analysis is going to come out very negative.

[UTUSN]

44. Can you see 20 yrs into the future?!1 n/t

[varelse]

53. the minimum standard will be 70% coverage with 30% "cost sharing"

13 (A) IN GENERAL.—The cost-sharing under
14 the essential benefits package shall be designed
15 to provide a level of coverage that is designed
16 to provide benefits that are actuarially equiva
17 lent to approximately 70 percent of the full ac
18 tuarial value of the benefits provided under the
19 reference benefits package described in sub
20 paragraph (B).

http://docs.house.gov/rules/health/111_ahcaa.pdf

I hope I'm misreading that.

[quiller4]

57. The bill is better than I expected and I'm quite happy. So are all

those I saw this morning at a community breakfast.

[wroberts189]

58. They got everything the HC lobby wanted..and threw a few tables scraps our way.

Get ready for another 8 years of Republican control.