How many think the whole "jail time" argument makes as much sense as the "death panel" argument?

[Tommy_Carcetti]

Not that I don't think the GOP will attempt to exploit it as much as possible, and not that some DUers, bitter that the bill wasn't exactly what they wanted, won't be sucked in....

When I first read about the jail time thing from some of the posts on here, I was genuinely concerned. But more that I read it, the more that I think it really is much ado about nothing. There's nothing in the bill that actually criminalizes not having insurance. It is illegal not to pay taxes, as it has always been illegal not to pay taxes. Plain and simple. That's it. Case closed.

[Subdivisions]

1. Well, since Barack promised no new taxes for those making

under $250K/year, I am exempt if I can't pay for insurance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8erePM8V5U

[paulsby]

44. a president broke his promise?

oh noes. i'm shocked

[Truth2Tell]

2. So the mandate is now being spun as a "tax?"

okey dokey.

[spotbird]

16. Serious question

If it is mandated, how is it not a tax.

My grandmother doesn't pay car insurance because she doesn't drive. It's her choice.

[Truth2Tell]

25. I suppose it's semantics.

WA has a mandatory car insurance law, but I've never heard it referred to as a tax. But I guess you could call it that.

[spotbird]

30. If someone doesn't drive

do they have to pay it? Is it currently deducted from their pay? Does the state revenue office enforce it with other tax requirements?

[Truth2Tell]

33. All no.

Thank you. Your point is very well taken. :hi:

[spotbird]

40. No. Thank you. nt

[quiet.american]

26. Well, you know what, I've been paying a deduction for grandma's Medicare my entire working life

-- And I don't mind.

This is the same principle.

[spotbird]

31. You've been paying for your grandma's

car insurance? Damn, where do you live?

[quiet.american]

36. That's not what I said. :) nt

[MilesColtrane]

38. It's not a tax because you aren't obligated to pay it.

You will pay a fine though.

If you fail to pay a tax, you must pay a fine AND the delinquent tax.

[spotbird]

41. That makes me feel better

I get nothing for my tax increase or I get shit from an insurance company "voluntarily."

[paulsby]

45. that's an excellent point

if the govt. requires you to pay money,and you have no choice, it's a tax.

you can call it whatever you want, but that's a tax.

when you force the payment of money "via the barrel of a gun", it's a tax.

excellent point.

[NYC_SKP]

3. We want free everything without having consequences for not paying our taxes.

Apparently.

:shrug:

[cliffordu]

9. Apparently. Fucking commies.

[NYC_SKP]

13. And ponies.

All ya want, someone else will feed and brush 'em.

:donut:

[cliffordu]

15. True dat.

:rofl:

[spotbird]

17. Or we'd rather not have the corporations tax us directly.

Picky, picky.

[liberalmuse]

4. You know most of the teabaggers make over $250,000 a year...

so they do have a valid point. Well, they will once they win the lottery. :eyes:

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

[notesdev]

5. What happened to no new taxes on the middle class?

We'd better hope this monstrosity dies in the Senate, because if it actually becomes law there will be hell to pay.

[Obamanaut]

29. This is the 'change we can believe in' - the change is a different

voice saying "Read my lips. No new taxes."

[MadHound]

6. Let me connect the dots for you,

Under this bill, if I don't buy insurance from the government mandated insurance monopoly, I get money taken away from me. If I refuse to part with that money, I go to jail.

Sounds like mandated jail time to me:shrug:

[Subdivisions]

7. Do you make less than $250K per year? If not --->

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aa4ipe4fhU

[MadHound]

10. ?

What does that have to do with what passed last night? Putting up random You Tube links doesn't make for a cognizant or effective rebuttal.

[Subdivisions]

20. Did you listen to what he said in the video? He said NO TAX INCREASE

for ANY REASON for ANYONE making less than $250K/year. If you do not want to pay for healthcare coverage, then you are taxed come filing time. The President promised that would not happen under any circumstance if he was elected.

[MadHound]

23. No, come tax time, if you don't have health insurance, you are fined

You can call it taxes all you want to, not that it really matters. But the fact of the matter is that we just handed the insurance industry a mandatory monopoly, one that is backed by the force of law, including fines and even possibly jail time.

[spotbird]

32. If Bush had

pandered to insurance companies like this there would be nothing short of uncontrolled outrage. It really makes me want to cry.

[Subdivisions]

35. My point is that this is a broken promise from a man I voted for based on his promises. n/t

[Heidi]

8. I don't believe the jail thing would ever happen.

In Switzerland, health insurance is mandatory, but I've never heard anyone going to jail for it. More likely, you get a fine if you flatly refuse to pay. Beyond that, if you still refuse to pay, it goes on your credit record.

[spotbird]

18. How will it be enforced here? nt

[Warpy]

11. It scares lazy morons

which is why the far right is screaming it nonstop.

[TheWebHead]

12. not to re-open the "death panels"

but reading through the bill, the "Health Choices Commissioner", referred to about 290 times as "The Commissioner" in HR3962, could be cast as the "Death Panelist". Whoever this person is, they'll be pretty powerful... though that's not saying we already have death panels with health insurers, and to some degree it has to happen from a medical ethics standpoint. There's a lot of people you could keep alive if you had unlimited resources both financially and within the healthcare system, but we don't. And as we develop more drugs, medical devices and stem cell therapies, that will be even more of a moral dilemma.

As for the jail time, a large percentage don't pay federal income tax, and a larger percentage have it taken out automatically via their W2. This will be a new situation, where you'll have potentially millions having to pay this penalty. You may have a large block refusing to pay to become a political martyr, the IRS will be tested to see if they're serious about taking on a political hot potato and going after someone refusing to pay by seizing property, freezing bank accounts or criminal prosecution. It reminds me of the end game for those opposed to abortion, do you go after the woman who gets an illegal abortion... I think you'll see a lot of congresspersons getting asked the question if they support jail time or home seizure for those who don't pay a fine if they don't get health insurance... and if not, how do you enforce it. It puts them in an very uncomfortable box.

[JVS]

14. You don't find using our IRS as a collection agency for corporations disturbing?

[spotbird]

19. Rather than address your question

the response will be to insult you. I can't understand the difference either.

[SammyWinstonJack]

21. I do and wonder why some do not?

:shrug:

[Heidi]

22. I find it disturbing. I also find using county attorney offices as collection agencies disturbing,

but that little feature of life in the US was brought to us by lobbyists by business interests decades ago.

[ixion]

24. exactly... it is wildly disturbing

IMO

[Waiting For Everyman]

28. +1

[Hoopla Phil]

34. Yes I do!

[Obamanaut]

27. Call it what you will - tax, fee, assistance for whomever, etc - but if

is collectible by force of law/mandate, it is a tax. And just like income tax, there is the specter of jail time for nonpayment of a tax (any tax) in the shadows, just like there is the unseen anti virus program running in the background of the computer. You don't see it, no one talks about it, but it is there.

[proud2BlibKansan]

37. I have yet to see a link proving it's more than a silly talking point

[Odin2005]

39. too many seem to have drunk the Libertarian anti-tax kool-aid.

[spotbird]

42. What happens if a taxpayer doesn't

pay the "fine" with their other tax obligations?

[notesdev]

43. Do you really think there is capacity at this time for people to pay more taxes?

Who are these lucky people you hang out with that have money for that?