who is the most credible person concerned about Pelosi's jail clause?

[Enrique]

so far it's been anonymous emails, some republican congressman I never heard of, and Drudge sounding the alarm.

Kucinich was strongly against the bill, voted against it, but did he say a word about the jail clause?

Any civil liberties groups, health care groups, anyone with a shred of credibility, say anything about the jail clause? Are they all in on it?

[ixion]

1. much to my chagrin, I've seen almost no discussion about the mandate and the penalties

associated with it.

This is one of the worst aspects of the bill, IMO.

[ananda]

2. That and the ant-choice amendment..horrible!

nt

[Enrique]

4. Kucinich argued against the mandate

but he didn't argue that anyone was going to jail under this legislation.

Many credible people have argued against the mandate, including Obama during the primaries if I remember it right.

But these people have never talked about people being put in jail.

[mule_train]

32. that's correct, - obama DID argue AGAINST a mandate

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6960227&mesg_id=6964282

Kucinich, while I dont agree with everything he says, is a decent guy a TRUE liberal, not a neoliberal, who's just as bad as a neoconservative

[still_one]

5. so you believe that you shouldn't have any penalties if you don't pay taxes?

If tomorrow I don't want to pay social security taxes, why should I be forced to?

That penalty is existing IRS law, nothing new

[ixion]

10. tying healthcare to income tax is insane

and, for the record, I don't like paying SS taxes, either, because it's money I'll never see again.

Right now, I pay less than 1% of my income for insurance. Thanks to this piece of crap legislation, I'll now be paying almost three times that. How the hell is that reform? :crazy:

[Autumn]

17. Insurance Finance REFORM

or as another DUer called it "The Insurance Industry Profit Protection Act of 2009"

[rgbecker]

19. It is reform...big time!

If you only have to pay 1% of your income for health insurance and others have to pay 10-30% something is very wrong and this reform will move that difference in the right direction. As for not seeing your SS money again, look around, your neighbors are dependent on your payments to keep them in their houses, fed and off the streets. With any luck and an average lifespan, you will be receiving from your neighbors a similar payment which you may find useful, even with the huge retirement fund which you must be building.

[still_one]

23. If I lost my job tomorrow, and didn't have hypertension, health insurance would cost me

12 thousand a year, which is a lot of money. I cannot believe that this healthcare bill will make it any worse

[happy2bhere]

31. nice post

It is time us progressives start thinking about other people, the Republicans are the selfish ones. This legislation might just help out the least of us, the ones who need this help the most.

[still_one]

20. You must be relatively young, and not have pre-existing conditions. Frankly, I am amazed

that you feel that way toward SS and Medicare, which are under the same umbrella

The only problem with SS right now will be the current group of baby boomers, after that it will start coming back into the black

Folks who aren't for social security and medicare are usually not associated with progressive ideals

[ixion]

24. not really, but I can understand why you would think so...let me elaborate

My feeling is that if people want to participate in SS or Medicare, they should be able to. Conversely, people should be able to make the choice to opt out.

I think that we can have a Cadillac health and human services program for a fraction of the taxes we're paying now. This is why I oppose tax increases. They don't fix the problem: corruption and nepotism is government. There are people who make a fabulous living at taxpayer expense who don't really do squat. I'd like to see the defense budget cut by 60% or more. That cut alone would provide the space for improved HHS programs.

I am an ardent pacifist, and anti-war, but I fully support the 2nd Amendment.

So, in short, I have no problem with SS existing, but feel that it should be optional. This would serve as a much needed check against consistently increasing SS taxes, and consistently decrease benefits.

I'm not really a traditional progressive, although I have many progressive beliefs, I also have some distinctly libertarian beliefs as well. That's why I'm an independent. :)

Hope this helps.

[mule_train]

27. only 'naysayers' discuss the mandate and the penalties

you're not a naysayer, .....are you?

[still_one]

3. because that is what the penalty is for not paying your taxes. If you don't pay your social

security tax, or income tax, they can exert the same penalty

[Luminous Animal]

29. So this is a tax hike, then?

A tax hike going directly to the private insurance market.

Kind of like privatizing social security.

[NYC_SKP]

6. What happens to people who refuse to contribute to Social Security or pay self-employment tax?

Does everyone expect full benefits for all, but voluntary contribution to the program???

If we want full participation, there needs to be consequences.

The devil's in the details, exactly how non-participants will be handled given each particular case.

My best way to think about this is to compare it to Social Security, which includes penalties for non-compliance.

:shrug:

[still_one]

7. Gee, I was thinking about not paying my income tax, I didn't realize I could go to jail

for not doing it. Thanks for the information


(sarcasm I hope you realize)

[joeybee12]

8. Nobody can refuse to pay social security, really, since it's taken

out of wages...you can change your IRS deductions and then not file and hence not pay taxes, but if you're employed, you're pasy SS, not ifs ands or buts.

[NYC_SKP]

11. I had a small business, there's a self-employment tax to pay into SS. 15% IIRC.

But in practice I don't know how stringently this is enforced.

And I know a guy with an auto repair shop who collected employee's benefits but didn't send them in.

He's not in jail, still has his business, goes on vacation.

[Barack_America]

15. So too can be tax penalties.

The IRS tends to go for your paycheck long before sending you to prison.

[mule_train]

28. Americans have been crying for more things to pay, or go to jail for

almost as much as they have been demanding that we give a trillion to failed bankers

Lose your job (and healthcare) when you got replaced by an H-1b? Better buy healthcare, OR GO TO JAIL!

Hard to tell what's worse 'compassionate conservatives' or 'caring liberals'

[tomm2thumbs]

9. Prison?? Oh goodie - they are single payer!

I can't wait!

[rug]

12. It's not a mandate without a penalty.

If you refuse to pay the monetary penalty the last resort is incarceration.

Without a penalty there is no mandate.

[mule_train]

13. I was bothered by comparisons to car insurance - you're only forced to carry LIABILITY

from a 2 ton object going out in public at 70 mph

i definitly agree that health care needs reform

but massive bills like this are always written by lobbyists....at least in the fine print

you always get the exposes...after it passes

[Sebass1271]

16. yOU CANT COMPARE the car Policy.. NOt everyone drives or

has a car!. If you don't drive/have a car, you are not mandated to buy car insurance!. This is crazy comparison by Dems and it should stop! They sound lunatics just like repukes.

[Sebass1271]

14. How can pelosi write such a bad bill? I understand the

mandate and penalties IF we are being offered OPTION to buy good insurance at excellent rates. However, there is no provisions for healht insurance companies to bring down their costs. This means, insurance companies will have the liberty to charge us as much as they would like aside from the $3000 charges a year we will ALL HAVE, no matter your wages. and now JAIL?

This is crazy and its bad policy.

I am really ashamed of Pelosi today

[ps1074]

18. This is the new Death Panels

Not only will they send you to jail but they will pull the plug on grandma too.

[Sebass1271]

22. This is shameful!, now repukes really HAVE something

to fight about on this bill. Their fight is not because they want to be the party Of NO, their fight now will take credibility. This is totally shameful. I just still can't comprehend why she would do something like this?

Have we try contacting her office?

Why would she send ppl to jail for not buying EXPENSIVE PREMIUMS FROM HEALTH INS. COMPANIES THIEVES?

WHY?

[mule_train]

25. prescription drug bill was the same way - guaranteed top prices paid to big pharma

soemday people will figure out that international corporations OWN both parties

Insurance companies that force their IT staff to train their Indian H-1b replacenments - and you wont boycott them, becasue you BUY THEIR PRODUCT OF GO TO JAIL

[lumberjack_jeff]

21. No credible person thinks the IRS should have no enforcement ability. n/t

[mule_train]

26. 2008 "Barack Obama doesn't start by having the government force people to buy health insurance if th

they cant afford it"

2009 "Buy this health care or go to Jail"

what a difference a year makes

dont believe me? read for your self source is abc news

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2008/01/clinton-attacks.html

[mule_train]

30. "You have no choice. You have owners. They own you" George Carlin

"The politicians are put there to give you the idea that you have freedom of choice. You don't. You have no choice. You have owners. They own you" George Carlin