I don't want to pay for "elective abortions".

[PeaceNikki]

I've seen a fairly good number of DUers say this.

I ask all of you here and now, "Why not?"

It's not about the money, is it? It can't be. If these pregnancies go to term, the cost of prenatal care and delivery far exceeds the cost of termination.

Let's be honest, it's about your opinion of the procedure. It's about your beliefs. Why is it OK that you factor your opinion of this procedure into HCR? And more importantly, why is it OK to use HCR to restrict access? Because that's what Stupak and DFLA really want. And, if the desire really is to reduce the number of abortions, why not mandate the coverage of contraception in the bill?

I want HCR to pass and I want my representatives to not bend to the religious right at the expense of women's choice and access. I don't want Democrats working towards restricting access.

[Heidi]

1. It's not at all about the money.

Recommended.

[theHandpuppet]

2. Tell it like it is!

:thumbsup:

A big K&R for this thread.

[Electric Monk]

3. I don't want to pay for wars. I don't want to pay for bombs. I don't want to pay for torture.

/just sayin...

[BlancheSplanchnik]

39. Restricting $$ for safe legal abortion creates $$$$$$$costs for emergencies resulting from

unsafe "backstreet" abortions, medical complications, postnatal emergencies.

Restricting safe legal abortion $$ reroutes the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ burdens onto taxpayers and creates suffering for families, communities and social nets resulting from burgeoning numbers of unwanted children....

go ahead, explain more about where you want your $$ to go.

[Shagbark Hickory]

68. You're not going to win against the religious zealots with 'facts & figures.'

But you can pull a fast one on them by including this ammendment.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

49. my apologies, Electric Monk

I was just made aware that I probably misinterpreted your post. I thought you were making a pro-Stupak comment.

Peace

[msongs]

mandate contraception coverage? absolutely yes nt

[PDJane]

4. There are no laws on abortion here.

And the number of abortions has dropped, not increased. Contraception is relatively inexpensive, too; about $15.00 per month at chain drugstores. It's a much better solution. Hell, if the government paid for contraception, it would be cheaper than the current system stateside, and would make life much easier all around.

[PeaceNikki]

9. I know. I QUITE often refer to an article written by one of my favorite authors:

Joyce Arthur

Long, but a great read.

(PDF) http://www.arcc-cdac.ca/action/repeal.pdf

No country needs to regulate abortion via criminal or civil law. Only when abortion has the same legal status as any other health procedure can it be fully integrated into women’s reproductive healthcare.

by Joyce Arthur

The repeal of abortion laws is supported by evidence from Canada, the only democratic country in the world with no laws restricting abortion since 1988. Abortions have since become earlier and safer, and the number of abortions has become moderate and stable. Current abortion care reflects what most Canadians are comfortable with, and women and doctors act in a timely and responsible manner, with no need for regulation.

Several legal arguments help build the case for abortion law repeal. A constitutional guarantee of women’s equality can be used to overturn abortion laws, and ensure that abortion is funded by the healthcare system as a medically-required service. Freedom of religion, the right to privacy, and the right to self-defense can also be used to strike down laws. All anti-abortion restrictions are unjust, harmful, and useless because they rest on traditional religious and patriarchal foundations. Laws kill and injure women, violate their human rights and dignity, impede access to abortion, and obstruct healthcare professionals.

Solutions for Repealing Anti-abortion Laws
Here’s some suggested solutions to get rid of harmful anti-abortion laws:
? Guarantee women’s equality in countries’ constitutions.
? Collect evidence of laws’ harms, find plaintiffs, and challenge laws in court.
? Lobby government against abortion restrictions (meet with legislators, submit briefs).
? Educate media, government, health professionals, and public about the harm and futility of abortion restrictions.
? Challenge the religious basis of anti-abortion laws, and keep church and state separate.
? Change the rhetoric: Abortion is not a “necessary evil.” Abortion is a moral and positive choice that liberates women, saves lives, and protects families.
? Empower women in society by changing public policies.
? Change patriarchal attitudes about women and motherhood through advocacy and education.
? Prioritize childcare and child-rearing as a universal concern, not a “woman’s issue.”

Some of these proposed solutions are obviously very difficult and would take many years. But one has to start somewhere.

To conclude, no country needs any laws against abortion whatsoever. We can trust women to exercise their sensible moral judgment; we can trust doctors to exercise their professional medical judgment, and that’s all we need to regulate the process.

[Horse with no Name]

10. The reason abortion rates have dropped HERE is because of accessibility

That is NOT a good thing.
I wish I lived in an enlightened country.

[havocmom]

5. One wonders if many people of that mind are OK with paying for the wars

We pay a hell of a lot more of our tax dollars for killing other nation's babies, if that is the argument against supporting abortion rights with tax dollars. I am really getting disgusted with a lot of whining Americans, especially the ones purporting to be liberal who want to exclude less financially secure women from getting benefits from any tax monies.

[Horse with no Name]

6. That is EXACTLY it

It is about control and ideology.

[beyurslf]

7. Well I don't want to pay for cancer treatment. Can we exclude my tax dollars

from that? How does that argument work for other health-related expenses?

[PeaceNikki]

14. This is also a fear.

If they can selectively choose what to fund based on beliefs, what if they don't want to fund AIDS treatment. Since... you know, it's a "gay" problem.

[beyurslf]

37. Another great example. Disease from choices in lifestyle.

AIDS, smoking-related health problems, obesity, etc.
If they can earmark their tax dollars, I want to earmark mine. None of mine can go to corporate bailouts or tax cuts or incentives. None of mine can go to those making more in an hour than I make i a year.

[solara]

8. Good Question.. Real Good Answer -

:kick:





:patriot:

[Le Taz Hot]

11. I don't want to pay for bombing brown people either.

For some reason, I didn't get a choice on that one.

[liberalmuse]

12. It's not really about that, though.

It's basic oppression of women. It's nobody's business what goes on inside another woman's uterus. It's nobody's business whether she chooses to have an abortion because of rape, incest, financial hardship or what the fuck ever. The issue is, a group of people are limiting women's health care because of their personal ideology, and that is just wrong.

[PeaceNikki]

16. That's my point. I think there's some deliberate dishonesty.

[Name removed]

74. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Starry Messenger]

13. Anyone who utters that phrase is clueless.

Pure stupid. Too stupid to pour pee out of a boot. Comparing abortions with a nose job? means you probably have trouble tying your shoes.

[ananda]

15. The problem is that many Dems are actually righties ..

.. and ARE part of the religious right.

[PeaceNikki]

18. And we need to be cautious of Trojan Donkeys like the DFLA

http://www.talk2action.org/story/2006/9/26/3754/33226

[EndersDame]

17. I think all of those should volunteer as a handholder at planned parenthood at a get a real picture

about these women and the choice they made. Also to de mystify the procedure in general. I think that every one who witnesses first hand who these women are and what they have gone through will be ready to fund abortions 100%

[stray cat]

19. The question is does the bill fail at the expense of paying for elective abortions?

it didn't pass by much of a margin - is it better to have no changes this year to health care? Some people wanted the bill to pass even if it involved a compromise they didn't like to get sufficient votes.

[PeaceNikki]

20. I get that.

I do. Like I said, I want to work towards meaningful HCR. I just really hope Stupak's shit doesn't stick. And more than anything, I wanted to try to get some honest discussion from those who agree with (or are OK with) the Stupak amendment.

[Egnever]

100. Exactly right

[patrice]

21. It's not about money. It's not about lives. It's about power, asserting power over others to force

them to conform to "your" values and perceptions in order to proove to you that all that you have sacrificed for said values and perceptions will be rewarded. Nothing in this country is ever done simply because it is the right thing to do; everyone needs a reward/justification/"success" and the more that has been sacrificed for that reward the stronger the NEED for conformity so anything that threatens the reward(s) is Evil and must be destroyed.

Women's freedom and the freedom of all genders is a direct threat to Social Conformity.

[tonysam]

22. It's isn't just the "religious right" who oppose abortion

There are many Catholics in Congress from both parties who oppose abortion and represent constituents who oppose abortion. Many of these Catholics are not right-wingers on the vast majority of issues.

[PeaceNikki]

23. Oh, don't be fooled. Those people who want to impose their beliefs ARE the religious right

regardless of what letter is in parentheses next to their name.

[tonysam]

46. Nope. Most Catholics aren't religious rightists

If you've followed this issue like I have, and I have since I was in high school some 40 years ago, you will know first of all the Catholic vote has been, until Roe v. Wade, traditionally Democratic. Hispanics, now a bigger voting bloc than 40 years ago, are overwhelmingly Catholic and the majority are Democratic.

Abortion being cut out of this so-called reform bill is completely predictable and has been since the Hyde amendment of years and years ago. Why give the GOP an issue to run against Democrats and make headway into some of their constituency?

Activist women simply don't have the numbers.

[Ineeda]

29. They can believe whatever they want and so can I. It's none of their fucking business.

I actually did a spit take yesterday when a wingnut congresswoman said during the rules committee 'I ask unanimous consent' segment, "I rise in opposition to this bill. Government shouldn't stand between a woman and her doctor." Huh? Wish I could find a link and wish I knew who it was. And, BTW, no Democrat interrupted her with "I object, I object, I object." :shrug:

[Greyhound]

41. So imposing your fantasies on the rest of the world through law, the enforcement of which

is ultimately violence, presents no problem for you.

How very liberal of you...
:eyes:

[tonysam]

48. I am solidly liberal and NOT Catholic, atheist if anything. I am just stating political reality

Democrats in Congress who voted to cut out abortion either are in conservative districts or else they have a large Catholic constituency.

Telling the truth about this issue doesn't change a thing. It's naive to think abortion would ever be covered in any kind of health care reform package given how polarizing this issue is.

[Hippo_Tron]

62. I hate to break it to you, but many Catholic leaders have joined the religious right

It used to be a movement that was anti-Catholic and anti-Semitic but in recent years they have toned that aspect down to bring in Catholics and Orthodox Jews.

I'm not saying that the vast majority of Catholic voters are part of the religious right but I think many of them are influenced by these leaders and more inclined to vote based on abortion than they used to be.

[dflprincess]

113. The leaders have

and there's no denying there's a lot of wing nut Catholics. But there are more Catholics who are what the nuts call "cafeteria Catholics". These are the ones who don't march in lock step but think for themselves. Personally, as a lapsed Catholic, I don't understand why they stay - but I suppose it's a good thing that there be some dissent from within the Church.

A couple weeks ago when the Catholic Church extended an invitation to Angilicans who disapprove of their church including women and Gays in the priesthood I thought it would have been only fair for the Archbiship of Canterbury to extend the same invitation to disillusioned Catholics for just the opposite reason.

[Solly Mack]

24. K/R

[PeaceNikki]

25. Kicking to see if any of the 'I don't want to pay for "elective abortions"' crowd will respond.

[Ineeda]

26. simply the phrase "elective abortions"

is a dead giveaway. When has an abortion in the US not been elective? This phraseology implies that the decision women make to have abortions is as frivolous as decisions to have other "elective" procedures.:grr:

[left coaster]

27. Absolutely.

You nailed it.

[PeaceNikki]

28. Yes. This is why I put it in quotation marks.

[otohara]

36. +1

[PeaceNikki]

38. There powerful stories behind each decision.

FWIW, here's mine.

I was 22 years old. I had a four year-old. I was in an abusive (physically and emotionally) marriage; too scared to leave. My ex-husband had "lost" his job (due to his own irresponsibility and addiction) and he was carrying our insurance. I had just entered the full-time work force about a year earlier and had just started to build a career. I was just accepted into the management training program and saw an opportunity to make something of myself. My ex was threated by this and thought I'd leave. So, he intentionally broke a condom. How do I know this? He told me after the fact.

So, here I was, deathly afraid of the man I called my husband, no insurance, hardly able to make ends meet - and pregnant. I knew that bringing another child into this world in such an awful circumstance with a man who was an evil alcoholic and had already proven himself as a sorry excuse for a father was wrong.

So, on the most ironic of days, Mother's Day... I had an abortion. It was painful, humiliating and uncomfortable. I know with every fiber of my being that it was the right choice. Five long years later I gained the strength and self-respect to get out of the marriage. But, the scars that the man left on me and my son are permanent. I made the right decision for him and I.

Strength to all of us women. It's a very personal decision and I am sickened that some would classify mine (or anyone's) as an abortion of "convenience". No, it was survival.

As I stated last night, choice does not force beliefs and decisions onto people, restricting access does.

Here's a toast to the strong women faced with such difficult decisions... and I will fight until my last breath for the rights of all of us.

[Hepburn]

88. Oh, my....

...:hug:

[PeaceNikki]

97. Thanks.

:hug:

[JerseygirlCT]

61. Don't hear much about "elective gallbladder surgery"

or even "elective vasectomy" from these folks.

The implication that abortion is something akin to a decision about a manicure is idiotic and insulting.

[TicketyBoo]

92. Is vasectomy going to be covered?

Does anyone know?

How about tubal ligation?

[lolly]

87. Definition of "elective abortion"

It's pretty obvious to anybody who has been following the stories from clinic workers what the definition is:

An "elective" abortion is one that YOU get, while a "necessary" abortion is one that I need.



I've heard from people--probably here on DU?--that some people will protest one day, bring their daughters in the next, and then head back to the protest lines.

[PeaceNikki]

96. Ever read this?

"The Only Moral Abortion is My Abortion"

When the Anti-Choice Choose
By Joyce Arthur

Copyright © September, 2000

Abortion is a highly personal decision that many women are sure they'll never have to think about until they're suddenly faced with an unexpected pregnancy. But this can happen to anyone, including women who are strongly anti-choice. So what does an anti-choice woman do when she experiences an unwanted pregnancy herself? Often, she will grin and bear it, so to speak, but frequently, she opts for the solution she would deny to other women -- abortion.

In the spring of 2000, I collected the following anecdotes directly from abortion doctors and other clinic staff in North America, Australia, and Europe. The stories are presented in the providers' own words, with minor editing for grammar, clarity, and brevity. Names have been omitted to protect privacy.

"I have done several abortions on women who have regularly picketed my clinics, including a 16 year old schoolgirl who came back to picket the day after her abortion, about three years ago. During her whole stay at the clinic, we felt that she was not quite right, but there were no real warning bells. She insisted that the abortion was her idea and assured us that all was OK. She went through the procedure very smoothly and was discharged with no problems. A quite routine operation. Next morning she was with her mother and several school mates in front of the clinic with the usual anti posters and chants. It appears that she got the abortion she needed and still displayed the appropriate anti views expected of her by her parents, teachers, and peers." (Physician, Australia)

"I've had several cases over the years in which the anti-abortion patient had rationalized in one way or another that her case was the only exception, but the one that really made an impression was the college senior who was the president of her campus Right-to-Life organization, meaning that she had worked very hard in that organization for several years. As I was completing her procedure, I asked what she planned to do about her high office in the RTL organization. Her response was a wide-eyed, 'You're not going to tell them, are you!?' When assured that I was not, she breathed a sigh of relief, explaining how important that position was to her and how she wouldn't want this to interfere with it." (Physician, Texas)

Many anti-choice women are convinced that their need for abortion is unique -- not like those "other" women -- even though they have abortions for the same sorts of reasons. Anti-choice women often expect special treatment from clinic staff. Some demand an abortion immediately, wanting to skip important preliminaries such as taking a history or waiting for blood test results. Frequently, anti-abortion women will refuse counseling (such women are generally turned away or referred to an outside counselor because counseling at clinics is mandatory). Some women insist on sneaking in the back door and hiding in a room away from other patients. Others refuse to sit in the waiting room with women they call "sluts" and "trash." Or if they do, they get angry when other patients in the waiting room talk or laugh, because it proves to them that women get abortions casually, for "convenience".

Some anti-choice women who have abortions do make peace with their decision and even become pro-choice, or at least more forgiving of other women seeking abortions. A Louisiana patient who was anti-choice before her abortion, wrote a warm and grateful thank-you letter to the clinic, admitting that she had been a hypocrite:

"I never dreamed, in my wildest nightmares, that there would ever be a situation where I personally would choose such an act. Of course, we would each like to think that our reasons for a termination are the exception to the rule. But the bottom line is that you people spend your lives, reputations, careers and energy fighting for, maintaining, and providing an option that I needed, while I spent my energy lambasting you. Yet you still allowed me to make use of your services even though I had been one of your enemies. You treated us as kindly and warmly as you did all of your patients and never once pointed an 'I told you so' finger in our direction. I got the impression that you cared equally about each woman in the facility and what each woman was going through, regardless of her reasons for choosing the procedure. I have never met a group of purely non-judgmental people like yourselves."

Much more at link.

[colinmom71]

122. Even necessary procedures can also be elective...

The problem with the public perception of the term "elective abortion" is that it renders the procedure as frivolous and unnecessary. That's just not true.

In medical terms, ANY procedure or surgery that can be scheduled and/or rescheduled (due to unforeseen circumstances delaying the procedure - sudden illness, unavailability of an OR/procedure room, etc.) is termed as "elective". It does not mean the procedure isn't medically necessary or justified. It only means that it is not an immediately emergent life-threatening problem requiring urgent, emergency medical intervention to save a patient's life. Even biopsies can be done on an elective basis, although it's obvious that is a procedure that is certainly medically necessary!

So, even an abortion that is medically indicated (say, due to fetal health problem or maternal health problem) can be an elective procedure. The term elective does not negate the procedure as necessary to the patient's long-term health interests...

[PeaceNikki]

123. Thank you for explaining that so very well.

Some here have classifies abortion as an "elective" equivalent to botox, face lifts and breast enhancement.

[gaspee]

30. And I don't want to pay for their viagra

n/a

[gaspee]

31. And I don't want to pay for their viagra

n/a

[Neecy]

32. From what I've read this morning....

Far too many people here are comfortable with Big Daddy telling us what reproductive rights we can and cannot have.

Or they attack us for hating this amendment because *some* reform is better than this POS that insults and degrades the most important constituency of the Democratic party. Or we're on the Enemy of the People list like Kucinich is this morning for not cheering over this big "win".

As a gay women, I'm used to this form of attack for not being on the happy bandwagon even as my community is ignored and marginalized. Now this same tactic is being used against women here. This place is getting sad, very sad.

[PeaceNikki]

33. I stand with you and I am also not "ok with" civil rights being used as a political bargaining chip.

[Bitwit1234]

34. I know how to stop that just

have your doctor say it is a NECESSARY PROCEDURE. AGREED??

[seemunkee]

35. I thought the right didn't want the government involved in health care decisions?

But I guess it's OK in this case because they care about it.
If they want govt involved in decisions then bring on the death panels.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

40. K and effing R

:applause:


I don't believe the Stupidass amendment will actually be a final part of the bill, however.

[PeaceNikki]

42. I hope not.

I am also baffled that none of the "I don't want to pay for THAT" crowd has come to discuss their reasons.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

43. actually, one did!

Right upthread, #3!!

I had a reply for him/her too.

[PeaceNikki]

44. I think that person was actually saying that in opposition of Stupak.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

47. ohhhhh

uh oh, I read it differently.

:blush:

[ismnotwasm]

45. It's not ok

There is a deeply psychological factor going on, what that is, I'm not sure, but I don't think it has anything to do with opinions. Most likely a type of primal, or perhaps atavistic is a better word, fear of women and their ability to be pregnant. As well as a bizarre denial of how necessary pregnancy planning really is to the entire human race, and a resentment that the choice belongs strictly to the human being who decides to carry a pregnancy, or not.

[me b zola]

50. This is it exactly.

I was glad that the bill passed last night, but Stupack and all of those who voted for his amendment can take a leap.

[PeaceNikki]

51. I was glad it passed, too.

But angered that there was this ultimatum bargaining away access.

[Generator]

52. I think it's important to punish women for their foolish choices

don't you? And besides, it's a moral issue. That's why we deny medical coverage and let people die for lack of it in America. Because we are moral. And being pro-unborn life is moral. Life that's already here-fuck 'em. Did I describe this great country or what! Go Dems! Go America!

[PeaceNikki]

53. That's the real story, isn't it?

Sad... and telling how none of the "not with MY tax dollars" people still haven't been honest.

[Hepburn]

54. Great OP....

...right to the heart of the matter!

Amen! KNR

[Shagbark Hickory]

55. I don't think anyones ever gone broke from getting an abortion. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong.

And I'm sure someone will try.

The bottom line is whether it's covered or it's not, it's small potatoes.
Compared to chronic illnesses, cancer all of that. That's the stuff that causes people to have to decide to pay their medical bills or eat.

Abortions... you can put that on a credit card.

[PeaceNikki]

56. It's restricting access.

And who brought up cancer? What does cancer have to do with this conversation?

Oh, I know... if they can decide to not cover ONE procedure, they can exclude others. Like AIDS.

[treestar]

59. +1

And yet look how people have allowed it to rule the debate. I hate this issue! It's always there to get in the way of anything constructive! As if the already born take second place to the potentially unborn!

[PeaceNikki]

60. Blame the DFLA and Stupak.

[treestar]

76. There's always somebody

As someone pointed out, the Dems got the Hispanic vote, which is likely to be Catholic. If only the Catholic church could care more about the already born as much as it does the unborn!

[LeftyMom]

73. A lot of women don't have a credit card, or the money for an abortion.

Obviously they certainly can't afford to have a baby, and definitely shouldn't be forced into having one by lack of access to health care. Your callousness to the needs of poor and working class women is DEEPLY offensive.

[Name removed]

75. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[PeaceNikki]

78. Aren't you cute?

[treestar]

82. Uh, yeah and so I take it you are for the health care bill?

Socialist though it may be?

[LeftyMom]

84. Go. Fuck. Yourself.

Sex is a normal, healthy human endeavor, and a healthy and fulfilling sex life should not be dependent on one's social class.

[PeaceNikki]

86. Yeah, this is what I meant by "Aren't you cute?"

[Hepburn]

93. Enjoying your pizza, Asshole?

Bu-bye.

[treestar]

77. But without health care, these same women wouldn't have health care

So the fact they could not get an abortion is no worse than it was before, and at least they have health care.

[LeftyMom]

85. What makes you assume that?

[Hepburn]

94. So much better to bleed to death from a back street abortion, right?

Your "logic" is fucked up.

[Shagbark Hickory]

117. Oh *my logic* is fucked up? I couldn't afford to pay for a major surgery but it doesn't mean I'm

going to have it done in a back alley somewhere.

And if someone is willing to have an abortion in a back alley, something tells me they would do it even if abortion was covered.

[Hepburn]

90. Let me put this politely, OK?

Fuck you.

[TicketyBoo]

99. Exactly.

If this was what it took to get the rest of the bill passed, well, I'm sorry, but it had to happen.

[EndersDame]

107. I make less than 1000 dollars a month and am trying to get into school

what should I do if the condom breaks? An abortion in central Texas is $565 . That is over half my income

[Daemonaquila]

111. Your privilege is showing.

That's the most condescending, privileged thing I've heard in a while. I practice disability law. A lot of my clients and a much larger number of people in the same poverty boat can't scrape together $25 for basic medicines. Put something on a credit card? Nice wish, having a credit card. Several hundred dollars for lifesaving care, much less an abortion? Ain't gonna happen.

Nobody is going to go broke from having an abortion because either they can scrape the money together from the seat cushions and borrowing, or they're going to have a baby they don't want, can't afford, and that will be paid for by YOUR tax dollars. The abortion IS small potatoes for YOU. You should be happy to pay for it rather than the next 18 years of food, medical care, shelter, education, etc. for that baby, and support that mother who's making the best choice she can for her own survival and ability to be a productive and happy citizen.

[colinmom71]

124. Did you even know there is a network of volunteers in our state of Georgia...

Who drive women from rural areas here to access abortions in the Atlanta or Jacksonville, FL area? Why? Because the nearest provider is HOURS away and they don't have their own transportation or a support person to help them get home in the hours after the procedure.

For those women who had to wait a few months just to save up the money for the procedure alone, many often need to have the volunteers house them overnight one or two nights to make sure their during and after-care is properly taken care of. Why? Because the delay in accessing the funds usually result in the pregnant woman needing a later abortion and thus a more expensive and medically difficult procedure requiring a support person to see to her after-care.

There are a total of 8 abortion providers in the state of Georgia, and of those 6 are in the immediate Atlanta metro area. The others are in Augusta and Columbus. Neither is convenient to residents of south and central GA, especially absent adequate personal transportation. Never mind that the patient also needs to have help going home after the procedure even for an uncomplicated first trimester abortion.

Money for the procedure alone is not just the only issue in GA and in many other states... Then again, if the woman can't afford the $30 a month for birth control pills, what makes you think she can pay off a credit card bill for a $500 abortion?

[treestar]

57. It's such a wedge issue

figures it has to be included in this.

I don't like it, but if we need it to get it passed, well, one thing at a time.

If the Dems have a lot of Catholic voters, then it's going to be a hard sell.

[PeaceNikki]

58. I agree that it's a wedge issue. And we are allowing Stupak and the DFLA to chip away at access.

Why do we allow explicitly EXcluding coverage of a constitutionally covered medical procedure? What's next?

[Shagbark Hickory]

65. BECAUSE... Like I said....

It's small potatoes.
Assuming the Stupidpak ammendment doesn't really ultimately ban abortion, I would be strongly against that, this seems to be an ok tradeoff if this bill really does cover more people and folks with pre-x conditions.

Maybe I'm just naive.

[PeaceNikki]

67. Ah... the fact that you think restricting access is "small potatoes" sums up how important the issue

is to you. And I think it does speak to your naivety.

[Shagbark Hickory]

69. If you can pay out of your own pocket with private money, then explain to me what the problem is.

I'm just trying to understand how this is anything more than a red herring.

[PeaceNikki]

70. You're not REALLY trying to understand.

It's been explained over and over. You just think it's OK to restrict access.

So.... what's the point?

[Shagbark Hickory]

72. How am I trying to restrict access?

I'm trying to understand, really I am.

[treestar]

80. Access is no more restricted than it already is.

And people would have health care for every other procedure.

[PeaceNikki]

83. If HCR passes with Stupak, it will be.

And, as I said below, I have not supported killing HCR because of Stupak.

This OP was not about wanting to kill HCR, it was looking for honest discussion from the "not with *MY* tax dollars" crowd.

[TicketyBoo]

101. "Honest discussion

"from the "not with *MY* tax dollars" crowd…"

Uh, no. Nobody gets to choose how THEIR tax dollars are spent.

So any discussion like that is not honest. Ever.

[Shagbark Hickory]

104. I don't want *MY* tax dollars paying the salaries of people in congress.

It's against my religion and morally wrong.

[TicketyBoo]

105. Well, good luck with that.

I would suggest that you not pay your taxes, in that case (assuming you don't mind a jail cell).

[Shagbark Hickory]

116. Can I choose deportation instead?

[treestar]

79. It is, though

As compared to all of health care. Don't make it a number one and only priority, the way the Catholic church does, just from the opposite pole. If people get health care where they didn't have it, that's better. What about the people who need every other medical procedure under the sun?

[PeaceNikki]

81. To be clear, I have not supported killing HCR because of Stupak.

In fact, it went exactly the other way. DFLA and Stupak threatened to "torpedo" HCR if they didn't get abortion explicitly excluded.

[Hepburn]

98. Ummmmm....

...what is the level waaaaaaaaaaay beyond naive?

What makes you think that limiting funds for abortions prevents them? The risk goes way up and the number stays the same. What makes you think that any woman intent on removing that growth from her womb is not going to find some way to accomplish the task no matter what the risk.

Small potatoes? Bullshit.

[Hippo_Tron]

63. I think Toby Ziegler said it best

"I don't know from where you get the idea that taxpayers shouldn't have to pay for anything of which they disapprove. Lots of 'em don't like tanks... even more don't like Congress."

[peace13]

64. Great! n/t

[Stevenmarc]

66. Hell, I wouldn't mind paying for a few retroactive ones

[Marlana]

71. On "elective abortions"

I had a friend who was in the Army back in the late 90's and early 2000's, before 9/11. She was engaged to another soldier, got pregnant and when she was about two months along had an accident at work and had a miscarriage. She needed a D&C since her body didn't expel the fetus when it died and the Army considered that an "elective abortion". She had to go off base to have the D&C done and her insurance wouldn't cover it because of the Hyde amendment, so she paid for it out of pocket. This is one reason why I'm pissed about the Stupak amendment, for some women, who can't afford to pay for an abortion out of pocket, their choice could be coming up with the money for one or to carry a dead fetus in your womb until (or if) your body expels it, which can cause so many other problems. Nice choice, there.

[PeaceNikki]

89. Yes, "elective abortions" are in the eye of the beholder.

And a choice that should be 100% between a patient and doctor.

[LeftyMom]

95. I had to have a D&E farther along for similar reasons.

I was married, employed, insured and pregnant on purpose. I was also my family's primary wage-earner, so a long hospital stay after my dead fetus went septic was not exactly in anybody's best interest. Luckily, instead of having to jump through hoops and justify my medical need to my insurer while hoping that I wouldn't get a life-threatening infection from the rotting corpse in my uterus while somebody made a decision, I was able to get the whole thing covered by Medi-Cal under the same program they use to cover both "elective abortions" and pregnancy care for working class women.

The same program helped with the costs later when I had a pregnancy that went to term.

[butterfly77]

91. These are the same damn people who..

don't want the kids who are fed,educated or anything else that would make them productive citizens but, ask them about Iraq,Afghan or anywhere else and they tell us that they need to build schools,educate the people and children,fed,clothe,etc.

Also,they don't want to pay for elective or any other abortions in this country because they do their abortions by bombing..Hypocritcal,lying asses.

[southernyankeebelle]

102. Limit the Men from having babies from unwed mothers. If you want to limit womens choses than you

have to force men to have vasectomies if they have more than one child out of wedlock. The problem is the same people that are bitching about woman having an abortion are the same people bitching about not wanting to pay welfare for unwed mothers. You can't have it both ways.

[Thothmes]

115. Forced sterilization

wasnt that a program back in the 1930s

[L0oniX]

103. I don't want to pay for elective wars either.

[harun]

106. I don't believe abortions should be used as a means of birth control.

[PeaceNikki]

108. Well, fuck... I guess I should cancel my monthly abortion on your account.

Did Sarah Palin hand you that line to drop?

[donheld]

109. This happens how often?

I'd bet very rarely

[Sparkly]

112. Then don't have any abortions as a means of birth control.

:eyes:

[tekisui]

120. He doesn't have a uterus so his opinion is moot.

[Mithreal]

114. Rightwing talking point, nice.

[tekisui]

119. Check profile...male. Not surprised.

:eyes:

[Hepburn]

125. Don't like abortions ~~ don't have one....

...oooooops, you're a guy....

What a surprise...not.

[KamaAina]

110. I don't want to pay for elective Viagra.

And I'm male. I just don't happen to need it. So there. :P

[tekisui]

118. DUers who say that are sexist assholes.

Or RW trolls.

[PeaceNikki]

126. Agreed.

Some seem to still fancy themselves "pro-choice" though.

[Dogtown]

121. K&R n/t