On H.R. 3962 and Jail Time....

[Roland99]

H.R. 3962 contains:

Section 59B. TAX ON INDIVIDUALS WITHOUT ACCEPTABLE HEALTH CARE COVERAGE.

‘‘(a) TAX IMPOSED.—In the case of any individual who does not meet the requirements of subsection (d) at any time during the taxable year, there is hereby imposed a tax equal to 2.5 percent of the excess of—
(1) the taxpayer’s modified adjusted gross in come for the taxable year, over
(2) the amount of gross income specified in section 6012(a)(1) with respect to the taxpayer."

‘‘(b) LIMITATIONS.—
‘(1) TAX LIMITED TO AVERAGE PREMIUM.—
‘‘(A) IN GENERAL.—The tax imposed under subsection (a) with respect to any tax payer for any taxable year shall not exceed the applicable national average premium for such taxable year.



Guess what happens when you don't pay taxes?


That's right! You get fine and/or jailed!



IRS code:

Sec. 7201. Attempt to evade or defeat tax

Any person who willfully attempts in any manner to evade or
defeat any tax imposed by this title or the payment thereof shall,
in addition to other penalties provided by law, be guilty of a
felony and, upon conviction thereof, shall be fined not more than
$100,000 ($500,000 in the case of a corporation), or imprisoned not
more than 5 years, or both, together with the costs of prosecution.



HEAD

Sec. 7203. Willful failure to file return, supply information, or
pay tax

STATUTE

Any person required under this title to pay any estimated tax or
tax, or required by this title or by regulations made under
authority thereof to make a return, keep any records, or supply any
information, who willfully fails to pay such estimated tax or tax,
make such return, keep such records, or supply such information, at
the time or times required by law or regulations, shall, in
addition to other penalties provided by law, be guilty of a
misdemeanor and, upon conviction thereof, shall be fined not more
than $25,000 ($100,000 in the case of a corporation), or imprisoned
not more than 1 year, or both, together with the costs of
prosecution. In the case of any person with respect to whom there
is a failure to pay any estimated tax, this section shall not apply
to such person with respect to such failure if there is no addition
to tax under section 6654 or 6655 with respect to such failure. In
the case of a willful violation of any provision of section 6050I,
the first sentence of this section shall be applied by substituting
"felony" for "misdemeanor" and "5 years" for "1 year".

[Roland99]

1. Oh, and BTW, H.R. 676 would impose a 3.3% payroll tax but guess what????

We'd get SINGLE PAYER!!

NO co-pays!

NO pre-existing conditions!

NO high-risk pools!

NO deductibles!



But, hey, we got...."compromise"

[still_one]

5. and did you have the votes for that to pass today? and when would you have the votes for that?

How many people would die before you would have those votes?

Incidently, Medicare is paid through taxes, and single-payer would have to be also

[Roland99]

7. The insurance companies won a HUGE victory with this.

They lobbied hard to prevent the public "option" from being a real public option. Very few will be eligible for it, meaning the rest will go to the greedy insurance companies and pay higher premiums through high-risk pools.

They lobbied against Single Payer and won a HUGE ally in Obama when he termed it "too radical".

It's time we got corporatists OUT of Congress and OUT of the White House.

[still_one]

15. The insurance companies are thrilled about the pre-existing condition clause

They are also thrilled that if we get a healthcare reform bill, that will be the foundation to single payer eventually

They would have been extremely disappointed is the bill failed. Watch their stock prices on monday, I sure they will go up by leaps and bounds

That is why they have been sending letters and emails to their members telling them to call their Congress person to see that this bill doesn't pass

[Cleita]

16. You mean that one Republican vote justified this health insurance welfare

bill? This bill passed because those same Congressmen are looking to the lobbyists filling their campaign coffers. It had nothing to do with bipartisan compromise.

[still_one]

26. Insurance companies are not happy about this bill /nt

[Cleita]

32. No because they can't deny coverage any more for pre-existing conditions

but that probably won't last since they are still in the game and can still heavily lobby the senate and the White House. Wait and see. I'm thoroughly disgusted with how this is playing out. Our Congress is a big sell out. I refuse to contribute money or work on their campaigns anymore. I'll just show up to vote against any corporate whore running.

[Roland99]

34. But they can charge whatever they want.

[Cleita]

37. Yes, and you can be sure they will unless they are stopped.

My insurance just advised me that my Medicare medi-gap policy is going up $50 in January, however, I don't see the benefits improving.

[Roland99]

38. But stopped by whom?

[Cleita]

44. Only our legislators can do this but since they didn't put any language

in it limiting premium gouging, I doubt if it will happen.

[still_one]

39. The question, is it better than what we have now, and does it provide a foundation for

single payer? If one can answer yes to that, then it is worth it

I believe if nothing is done this year, it won't happen for decades if at all

[Cleita]

43. Well, since everything was stripped out of it that could have led to

single payer, I have to say no unless they fix it in the conference committee before Obama signs it.

[still_one]

45. Please educate me how they could get the votes for single payer today? /nt

[Cleita]

46. Too bad we just can't put it on the ballot on the next general election.

"Should Medicare be made available to all citizens who pay into FICA taxes?" Yes or No. Since polls over the years that I have been monitoring them consistently come up with 70% of the population wanting something like this, I think 70% of the electorate would vote for it. I don't even think the astroturfers could poison the well either since everyone knows someone on Medicare if not on it themselves and they know how it works. So now we know that the votes are there. It's our elected representatives who are unwilling to represent our wishes.

[still_one]

47. True, but that isn't the government we have today. In addition, I don't think a lot of the red

states would be going for single payer for one reason or another.

it was nixon's Southern strategy, that allowed the republicans to win the South after Johnson's Civil Right's Act of the sixties

I wish things were that easy, and maybe we should have propositions on the national ballot, but we are a representative government

Actually, propositions on a national ballot may be good in this instance, but are potentially dangerous. It could open up propositions advocating discrimination and all other outrageous elements

You make an Interesting point

[Cleita]

49. Well, as a Californian, I am now against initiatives since I have witnessed

how they can be used by special interests to upend our institutions.

[still_one]

51. I am from California too, and I agree, though initially I used to think it was a good idea /nt

[liberalmuse]

2. You forgot to post the fine/jail part from the actual bill.

I don't really have a problem with that. People who don't have health insurance end up going to the ER and costing the tax payers a lot more than that. As I understand, only people who can afford health insurance but refuse to get it would be required to pay the tax. Again, I have no problem with that.

[Roland99]

4. Just updated the OP with the IRS code dealing with failure to pay taxes

[liberalmuse]

6. Thanks!

It's hard to find this bill without having to wade through Republican propaganda.

[still_one]

3. That point should keep being reinforced. How do people think social security and medicare are paid

for?

[NYC_SKP]

8. Thank you. Try not paying your share of self-employment tax, for example.

Do people want all of the benefits with none of the consequences for not participating.

:shrug:

In practice, how likely is it that anyone will do jail time or pay $250,000 that they don't have?

:patriot:

[Vincardog]

14. Do people want all of the benefits with none of the consequences for not participating? NO they want

a UNIVERSAL SINGLE PAYER System. They do not want to be FORCED to pay into a Profit Making Corporation that reuses to honor its' end f the contract.

[NYC_SKP]

29. Not on the table. Single Payer's time has not yet come.

Maybe state by state. We nearly had it in California.

With Governor Brown, maybe we'll have it.

Until then we have, well, nothing.

[still_one]

30. and who pays for a single payer system. Same tax system, same penalties /nt

[Roland99]

36. Comes out as a payroll tax. There's no way around it. AND, there are MANY benefits it would offer

at least the HR 676 version.

NO Co-pays
NO Deductibles
NO Pre-existing conditions

Plus includes Dental and Vision.


What's there not to like about it?

[Vincardog]

40. You forget the payments go to a PRIVATE PARASITIC CORPORATION not to pay for Health care

[Vincardog]

10. Social security and medicare are paid for by taxes NOT payments to FOR PROFIT CORPORATIONS

[still_one]

35. True, but it is a step toward that direction. There is no way single-payer would have passed today

and a lot more people are going to die if something isn't done to start the process

[Avalux]

9. What page of the bill is that text located? And can you please add the text for subsection (d)

since it is referenced??

If you're going to exclaim "you're going to jail", post the entirely of the actual text and give page numbers so people can go to the bill and read for themselves.

Any unpaid tax in this country is punishable by a fine. If the fine goes unpaid, then jail time is possible. Nothing out of the ordinary here.

[Roland99]

13. Uhh...yeah. Exactly. Hence the reason I posted the text from HR 3962 re: taxes AND the IRS code.

mmmkay?

[Avalux]

20. What page of the bill please? n/t

[Roland99]

21. Link to H.R. 3962 >>>>>>>>>>

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c111:H.R.3962:

[Avalux]

25. I asked you for the page number. You posted part of the text, do you not know? n/t

[Roland99]

33. Never done a search on Thomas Library before, eh? I gave you the link to the bill

scroll down the page after you click that link and look for Section 59B. Click that link and there you are.

Thomas provides that page as a temporary link and it would be stupid of me to post a link that would disappear in an hour, wouldn't it?

[Avalux]

41. I guess it makes you feel good to be condescending. Whatever. n/t

[Roland99]

42. Sorry for making the assumption you knew how to click a link and look for yourself.

[berni_mccoy]

11. French System uses a Mandate too.

[Cleita]

23. Ah! The French system again.

Their mandates aren't enforced quite in the same way that the language in this bill would enforce them. A percentage of income is taken just like our FICA taxes. No more. Poor people aren't forced to buy insurance but are covered under their government run basic health plan even if they aren't working. They still get health care.

[Cleita]

12. Yes, it criminalizes the poor. This is one of the many objections I

had to this legislation.

[Subdivisions]

17. Well, I don't make over $250,000 a year so new taxes do not apply to me. n/t

[Roland99]

18. They will if you choose not to purchase insurance on your own.

[Subdivisions]

19. But, but, but...I voted for Barack Obama based on no new taxes on people making

under $250,000/year. I voted for him based on that promise. So, being as I can't afford insurance, I will not be taxed for not having it. Barack promised!

[Roland99]

24. Guess you better hope you can prove you can't afford it, eh?

*sigh*

We got us a real winner in this bill, didn't we?

[Subdivisions]

27. No worries. I make under $250K, so no new tax for me. Barack promised it. n/t

[ProSense]

22. That's misinformation

Health Insurance Reform Mythbuster: ‘Reform Could Mean Jail Time’

As debate continues on the House floor, House Republicans are pulling out all the stops to scare the American public about the Affordable Health Care for America Act, including speeches today saying that Americans who don’t buy health insurance could face jail time. Here are the facts.

MYTH: “Reform Could Mean Jail Time for Americans Who Don’t Buy Insurance”

FACT: Right now, every insured American family will pay $1,017 a year in insurance premiums just to cover the medical expenses of the uninsured. That’s $42.7 billion this year - or $1,354 per second. Under the Affordable Health Care for America Act, Americans are responsible for purchasing health insurance coverage, and most employers will be responsible for offering coverage–individuals, employers, and the government are all responsible for contributing to the cost of coverage. This shared responsibility provision, for those who don’t already have insurance, requires Americans to either purchase affordable health insurance or pay a fee of 2.5% of their income so they are not driving up everyone else’s health costs.

Under the bill, the only people who would face the fee for not purchasing insurance are those who can truly afford to purchase such insurance.

For those who can afford insurance but for some reason do not purchase it, they simply pay the fee – a fee designed to cover their costs when they use the health care system. For a small number of people who might refuse to pay the fee, it is important to remember that, in the majority of cases, the IRS – which will enforce the insurance requirement – uses the CIVIL process to settle delinquent penalties and taxes.

It would only be in extremely rare circumstances that criminal prosecutions of any kind would be pursued:

In 2008, there were 156 million individual tax returns filed in the United States. Out of all of those 156 million returns, there were only 100 criminal prosecutions for willful failure to pay taxes – and only for the most egregious examples of those who willfully defraud the system.

Of course, true access to quality health care cannot happen if coverage is unaffordable. The bill will ensure accessible health coverage for all Americans by providing affordability credits and expanding Medicaid for those below 150 percent of poverty. The bill is designed to ensure that the shared responsibility requirement is never imposed on those who cannot afford to purchase health insurance. Some of the key affordability provisions:

Under our bill, there are generous affordability credits to help people purchase health insurance on the Health Insurance Exchange – with the credits on a sliding scale according to someone’s income.

There is a hardship exemption for those who cannot afford insurance even with affordability credits.

The lowest-income Americans qualify for Medicaid.

[Roland99]

28. A "fee"? The TEXT of H.R. 3962 says "tax". HUGE difference.

[BeatleBoot]

31. It's more than misinformation - it's disinformation.

[csziggy]

48. Health Insurance Reform Mythbuster: ‘Reform Could Mean Jail Time’

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6960204&mesg_id=6960204

[Roland99]

50. See my reply to post #22, of which your post is a dupe.

[dickthegrouch]

52. Their Math (or English) skills stink

It says in black and white - "with respect to any tax payer for any taxable year shall not exceed the applicable national average premium for such taxable year", therefore the premium can be no more than the national average. The national average would be reduced if there were any premiums paid below it. Therefore the premium for all taxpayers *IS* the national average.

[ljm2002]

53. Please point out any other case...

...where failure to buy a private company's product will result in a tax penalty.

Yes, some will be eligible to buy the public option, so for 2% of the population at most, the tax penalty will apply if they do not buy a public product. But for most people, the tax penalty will be assessed if they fail to buy a private product.

Really, if there are such provisions already in existence, I would like to know about them. It never hurts to become more informed. Please inform me.

[Roland99]

54. Car insurance is the only other thing I can think of that compares.

Must be nice to be an insurance company these days, eh?

[ljm2002]

55. But as you imply, it's not a real comparison...

...never mind the essential differences between car insurance and health insurance -- we don't all own cars, but we do all have bodies. As for auto insurance: yes, you can be cited and fined for not having it if you are caught driving without it. Yes you are required to purchase it if you own and drive a car. But the fine is not assessed on your tax returns. So it still is not the same thing.

Yes, it must be nice to be an insurance company. Buy the politicians for millions, and reap billions in rewards.

[Roland99]

56. The guys at Goldman Sachs must be right....

They're "doing God's work" and we just need to "tolerate the inequalities".

Time for us to just shut up and smile and take our daily dose.