For those of you who do not like the House bill and cannot support it at all, what is your plan?

[ncteechur]

What is your plan that will garner 218 votes in the House of Representatives?

What is your plan that will garner 60 votes in the Senate? Hell, even 50 votes?

What is your plan that will gather endorsements of organizations like AARP and most unions?

What is your plan that can accomplish all this well in advance of next year's elections minus the first quarter of 2010 which will be spent entirely on the budget?

And don't just put in on President Obama. You need a plan. He doesn't legislate. You need a plan.


Does this bill do everything it needs to? No. But it is an important start. I like much of it. I do not like the Stupak amendment but that is a reality of having Blue Dog conservative democrats from conservative districts who would not necessarily elect more progressive candidates.

So what is a plan that does all the above? Please tell us.

[Motown_Johnny]

1. *Crickets*

[endless october]

8. i'm concerned what will happen if it's watered down further in the Senate.

there are parts of it i like. what if those get pared off in the name of "compromise?"

it's not the best beginning point for bargaining. it's not the worst, either, but it could be better. my fear is that it will get worse and end up being an even bigger gift to the health insurance industry that caused the problem in the first place.

[Go2Peace]

62. How about we dump "reform" and rebrand the bill and create new regulations and a social program

, which is what the bill really has become (the "social program being health care subsidies). Or at least make a push and be more open about what we are getting. That is what I think they should do.

But you are correct, our leadership have really placed themselves in a difficult spot.

In a way, this could be good. With all the heavy critisizm coming their way they might finally realize the dangers of playing with the will of the people. They must be seeing, about now, that people are getting so dissalusioned that they really may, seriously, lose seats and heaven forbid the presidency in 2012.

Just to add, the posters who seem "outraged" that others are seriously dissapointed should stop saying that those same will not support the existing bill. Most of the folks I have seen posting are still willing to accept the extremely watered down version we currently have. We all recognize that there are provisions in it worth saving.

[Uben]

2. A plan that will work !

Deport all republicans!

[KharmaTrain]

3. Shhh...You'll Be Called Names...

Damn you for being a realist not an ideologue.

As my late mother would say, when you piss off the extremes, you have found a balance.

I guess purity means letting millions continue to go without any hope of the basic medical care.

Politics is the art of the possible...we saw it in action yesterday.

Not happy with yesterday's outcome...then work to get those who share your ideals and dreams elected.

[mmonk]

16. Only one problem with your thesis on this.

Our system is not one of balance anymore.

[KharmaTrain]

17. Has It Ever Been Balanced?

I think you know the answer...it's more degrees of where our political pendulum swings. For the past 30 years we were swung way to the right and took a lot of hard work over the past couple years to start nudging it back to the center. Thus there's still more work ahead to work on finding, promoting, supporting and electing more Progressives to the House & Senate.

Cheers...

[mmonk]

18. Whenever anything progressive gets passed

or is a major part of any legislation beyond 1950's level minimum wages in today's dollars, let me know.

[ixion]

4. if you think that passing this garbage is going to help dems in 2010

you are sorely mistaken.

[havocmom]

39. Yep. This one will motivate the RW and those on the left

The 'moderate DEMS' will find themselves surrounded with opposition. Way to assure nothing constructive gets done isn't it? The only winners are those profiting from the status quo, but they might find themselves SOL in 2010. That election will be a civil war.

[aSpeckofDust]

5. You really think we'll get the same bill they passed through tonight?

By the time it is beaten through the senate, we'll have a bill that looks more like the republican bill.


Compromise Compromise Compromise

That's what the democratic party does best.

[tomm2thumbs]

6. hear hear!!

especially when you have a bunch of nutcases on the other side calling health care the devil's work, something of Hitler and a means to kill Grandma.

[dysfunctional press]

7. my plan is to never vote for another democratic candidate.

fuck'em.

i'm done.

[WI_DEM]

11. aww, poor little thing didn't get everything you wanted

then why don't you get off of DU if you are not going to ever vote Democratic again.

[dysfunctional press]

14. actually, i have all i need- i wanted more for others.

i'm retired and on medicare.

[HughMoran]

29. good

Since your not part of the charter here any more - will you also leave?

[Yellow Horse]

51. A lot of Democrats had that plan in 1968...

...and we ended up with Nixon in power and the groundwork laid for KKKarl Rove et al.

RE-READ YOUR HISTORY.

[WI_DEM]

9. there plan is single payer which would be wonderful but it can't pass

if we can just barely get enough votes to pass this bill we certainly never would have gotten enough votes for single payer. What the purists don't see is that this is a big step forward and there are many good things in the bill too. But no, they will probably urge Dennis K to run for president yet again and once again he'll come in fourth in his own state.

[mmonk]

10. Help people like Marcy Winograd get elected.

http://winograd4congress.com/petitions/contributions.php

[KharmaTrain]

19. I'm Adding This To My List...

I plan to donate to as many Progressive candidates as possible for the upcoming cycle. I think there should be a forum here where these candidates are featured and others can learn about them and support them.

[mmonk]

21. It's the only way as I see it. Change a few players in your favor.

I would support this bill with all its warts if they had just left that one amendment be (Kucinich amendment).

[KharmaTrain]

23. Let's See What Happens In Reconciliation...

My first hope is the Stupak crap is stripped...if not someone challenges it in court. I'm also curious if there's the opt out, if that wouldn't enable states to move forward with their own single payer systems.

[Orwellian_Ghost]

12. Easy

[ncteechur]

13. Fine, I would love single payer-I personally think it is the best option but you still need 218 and

60.

[imdjh]

15. Single Payer, Democrats get a brain and a backbone to go with it. Fuck the Republicans.

Switch over immediately. By 2010 all Americans have Medicare and go to the doctor as needed, starting small businesses without worrying about health insurance, voting for Democrats who saved the nation.

Any questions?

[HughMoran]

28. The O/P asked how the Dems will get the votes for an alternative

My question to you:

Do you believe that you could get the votes in both the House and the Senate for your proposal (which everybody here, including me, would obviously prefer)?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

20. Here's my plan. Vote issues not party.

You want single-payer? You want out of Afghanistan? You want women's rights? Vote for candidates that support those issues.

[Individualist]

38. Same here.

Lesser of two evils and hold your nose and vote are for people who value party above principles.

[woo me with science]

22. What makes the successful European plans work

is that profits and the profit motive from denying healthcare are strongly controlled. As far as I can tell, there has been no effort at all to address that fundamental problem in this bill.

I see nowhere that the problem of spiraling costs will be addressed.

Someone put it very well in another thread. This bill will mandate that financially strapped Americans purchase insurance from private corporations that are not accountable to them. That is a problem.

[ncteechur]

25. To get that you will need campaign finance reform and the Supreme Court will not hear of it.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

24. Start over with a single-payer or national health plan that

can be explained in five sentences. (If I had time, I would explain the health systems of the UK, Canada, Germany, and Japan in five sentences each, but I have to leave for choir rehearsal soon.)

The bill itself should be a maximum of 20 pages. Leave the rest to be sketched in later as administrative rules. No 2000-page monstrosities full of possible minefields.

Have Obama go on TV, all networks, doing his best selling job (Reagan-style) explaining the bill in terms of what it would mean for the average person, what the advantages would be, and how the tax increases would be offset by lower insurance costs. Take another cue from Reagan and urge all Americans who support the plan to phone AND write snail-mail letters to their Congress critters.

Revive the nationwide campaign that got Obama elected in the first place and have it go door to door and phone bank for national health care.

Tell any Congresscritters who object that they will NOT get any campaign funds or presidential endorsements next time around, and they will definitely get a well-funded primary opponent. Take them into the Oval Office and ask them point-blank whether they're for the people or the corporations. Remind them that a successful health plan will ensure Democratic dominance for a generation.

When the Congresscritters go home, they should use the five sentences in all personal and media appearances and have a set of answers to potential objections. They should be bold and call people out on any lies or distortions that they encoutner.

That's how you bring about change, not by asking the corporations which regulations they would prefer.

[ncteechur]

27. Obama never campaigned on national health care. His campaign never endorsed single payer despite

what he may have said several years ago.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

64. So, better late than never

:shrug:

[kath]

47. +10.

[HughMoran]

26. You wont get an answer

...and any discussion will be inflammatory. You're talking to people who can't "think outside the box" - it's my way or the highway for them.

[placton]

30. here is my answer:

support primary challenge for Obama in '12
no dems who are not liberals (forget this progressive bullshit - it's like Progresso Soup, lotsa ads, no flavor) get money, shoe leather, letters to ed, for rest of my life.

[rhett o rick]

54. Cant wait until "12. Besides IMHO Pres Obama isnt the problem here.

It's the bought and paid for Congress.

[Stinky The Clown]

31. Too late now for my plan ......

... Single Payer is what we should have STARTED WITH. Instead, we started halfway to the right and went right from there. Had we STARTED there, we might have gotten what actually (and in my view, stupidly) started with.

But that genie is out of the bottle.

[treestar]

65. Not necessarily

You can start anywhere, but if it is not a credible start, you just get laughed at and can end up nowhere.

Like settling a case in court. If your case is worth about 15K, demanding 25K for a start might not be a bad idea, but demanding 500K for a start might just make you look dumb.

Starting with single payer may have gotten us nowhere. The "socialism" theme would have created a much steeper uphill battle.

[Stinky The Clown]

66. Or not

How would we know? It was NEVER seriously discussed.

[ncteechur]

32. One idea that I like (heard the other day) but it is not a total plan is...

lower medicare age to 55. That way, folks who are eligible to retire but cannot do so because they would lose employer health care could retire and free up their jobs for others.

That makes sense to me BUT it is only one element not an entire plan.

[ncteechur]

44. Oh a similar idea is in there that takes effect immediately.

[stray cat]

NO bill and just keep the status quo

that is the other choice. ( I don't think its a wise one but many do including lots of DUers clearly.

[Bluenorthwest]

33. My plan involves never again compromising my vote

to vote for an anti equality bigot because he claims to have great leadership skills. There is not point in voting against the interests of my family if all the homophobic twit can deliver is mediocrity anyway. The lack of excellence, the lack of even attempting excellence, trying for the best, is sickening, and having voted for him in spite of the gay baiting McClurkin events simply is not worth what we are getting.

[stray cat]

34. so who could you have elected that would change the outcome with your vote?

[saltpoint]

37. So who gets your vote? Cynthia McKinney? That campaign was a smashing

triumph, no question.

Nader? Kucinich on a third-party ticket? Someone even more obscure and ineffective?

I don't believe the electorate shares your view that Barack Obama is a "bigot."

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bluenorthwest]

61. Are you claiming that they are not bigoted? Because in no way

did I suggest any form of 'deleting' anyone from anything, but because you can not answer what I did say, you have to put words in my mouth and answer those. Make a straw man, and set him on fire, because you do not have the chops to deal one on one in a respectful and direct way. Speak to what I said, not what you claim I said, if you are able to do so.

[bluetrain]

71. I'm right there with you.

[DainBramaged]

35. You may as well have asked Republicans why they sat on their hands for 12 years

they'd have a better plan than the keyboard warriors denouncing the DEMOCRATIC plan on DU.

[TCJ70]

36. A real option open to all Americans at rates that...

...that would create true competition for insurance companies. Removal of the pre-existing conditions clauses. I'd have some things to say about the marketing of this effort, which our representatives completely failed at from the beginning. It doesn't matter if it passes or not as it's a win-win either way. If it does pass, great! If it doesn't, the republicans look like idiots (wait, not much change there) who just want to deny healthcare to the average citizen(a message that I would hope more democrats would latch on to).

[L0oniX]

40. SPHC or nothing.

[FlyingSquirrel]

43. I'll go with Nikki Stone1's plan

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=6925623#6926276

First, we staple Rahm Emmanuel to the roof of the Foggy Bottom Metro Station and leave him there

Then we tell Michelle Bachmann and the other RW crazies that we've spotted the anti Christ in the Mojave Desert. We send them out with holy water, Bibles, and wooden stakes to wander in the desert for 40 weeks.

Then we run through a 1 page bill that extends Medicare for everyone and a 9-page addendum that describes how we pay for it.

Then, we have lunch.

[MadHound]

45. To stop my support for this party,

And spend the rest of my life working to actively do away with the two party/same corporate master system of government.

If this is the bill that becomes law, then it will be the final proof that I need that Democrats are just as corporately corrupted as the 'Pugs are, and that by continuing to support them, I am working against my own best interests and principles.

[kath]

49. +1

If this is truly the best the Dems can do when they control the WH and both houses of Congress, then they are no longer worth supporting.

[ncteechur]

55. Yes, let's get rid of Reps. Weiner and Grayson. They voted for it.

Because they know the reality of politics.

[cascadiance]

46. Move up the timetable to first in line public campaign financing to get RID of the corrupt crooks!

It would seem that we can't even "struggle" to get adequate legislation an issue as critical and visible as health care, and therefore this seems to be THE one issue we need to solve before we can do ANYTHING to get rid of corporatist crap out of our government!

That and get EVERY independent candidate running their only point of negotiation to pull out of a race is for the Democrats to pass instant runoff voting. Had Nader made that his point of negotiation, who knows perhaps either Gore or Kerry could have won earlier, and we'd have a lot more realistic choices now. GOOD Democrats should want this as they will be HELPED. The only Democrats that will work against this are those that don't prioritize working for their *people* constituents over their campaign contributors.

[mike_c]

48. the "plan" is HR 676, medicare for all....

Nothing more, nothing less. Never give up hope for real change!

[Yellow Horse]

50. Same thing with the nutjobs who want hand-counted paper ballots & shut down election reform...

Millions of votes are STILL at risk in 2010 and beyond on paperless electronic voting machines made by Diebold and similar companies.

We should all have the basic reform of a paper ballot & optical scanner. The paper can be hand audited and recounted counted even if it is scanned. Unlike the touchscreens which have NOTHING real to count.

But noooooo, that's not "perfect" enough for some, they want 100 percent hand counted paper ballots. They won't work for the Rush Holt bills and demonize others who do. They won't do anything else to get reform in the meantime, even with so many votes in danger.

Here on DU the perfect paper people have basically shut down the Election Reform board. It's pretty much if anyone posts anything other than a news article, the thread is immediately spammed with clueless stuff about hand counted paper ballots. Nothing other than news postings can get talked about over there anymore; it is basically a denial of service attack.

And when the perfect paper people are asked what THEIR plan to get rid of paperless electronic voting machines is, there is NO ANSWER. Crickets. Nada.

Because most people who want Perfect usually NO plan whatsoever as to how to get there. Just do nothing personally other than block any incremental reform and hold out for Perfect.

Devil may care how many elections go down in flames like 2000 & 2004, or how many people die due to no healthcare.

:grr:

[rhett o rick]

52. Hard to be ecstatic about passing a bill by 3 votes that 80% of America was demanding.

And it still has to go thru the Senate for further weakening.

[JackRiddler]

57. "80 percent" (most people anyway) are demanding single-payer or a public option...

Not a corporate welfare bill for the corporations that forces people to buy private insurance at higher premiums, and presents no public option for 98%.

Is that so hard to understand?

That being said, this passing the House is a good thing. Let the Senate Republicans kill it by filibuster, then there's an issue to mobilize next year, win the election, and get real reform.

[rhett o rick]

69. Not hard to understand at all. I agree with you. My point is that the House had to struggle to

pass a bill that 80% of Americans thing is too weak. And the Senate hasnt even had a crack at it.

[Cleita]

53. My plan?

To keep pounding on getting Medicare for all until I die trying. I think there might be recourse through the courts. I believe a case can be made for everyone who pay payroll tax should be able to be covered by Medicare if they demand it. They do pay into it.

[JackRiddler]

56. HR 676, but you don't need an alternative to point out that the current bill is bad.

Bad, and actually reinforces the status quo its supporters claim it changes.

[ncteechur]

58. How?

[JackRiddler]

60. See here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6875563&mesg_id=6875563

[Greyhound]

59. "The Plan" has been blocked by leadership for two years.

If "our people" worked half as hard at pushing this as they have to keep it under wraps, it would be law today.

[jtrockville]

63. Absolutely agree!

Single-payer was banned from the discussion. DEMOCRATS erected the obstacles. If single-payer was SCORED and DISCUSSED and SOLD it could have passed.

[mstinamotorcity]

67. i don't

have one concerning this bill. I myself find it hard to live with some of the compromises, but,we don't have anything right now and that in my opinion is worse for America. Hopefully when this bill gets passed, what it lacks maybe we can fix it later. I plan on having our President around for another four years after this term so that he can complete the plan to get America on the road to being a better country. We want so many things and impatience has driven us to want them right now. We all know when our President went into office the country was a hot mess due to the previous administration. I have every belief in my heart that when he took office with the vigor and determination to change the behavior of politics in Washington D.C.,he found out the country was in worse shape than he thought and that politicians were rooted and grounded in corporate loot. For someone to want to take on that much responsibility and be held accountable, I am surprised he took the job. So i may not have a viable plan to pass on but i hope i have some sincere words of encouragement. This is going to happen for America but you must trust and believe in our voices and our passions to help make it happen.Peace and Love everybody!!!!!!

[rhett o rick]

68. It is ridiculous to argue about a bill that will never be passed. This bill will not survive the

Senate and we all know it. To argue the merits of this bill is premature.

[geek tragedy]

70. The purists belong to the Party of No.

They're like spoiled teenagers who hate their parents but not so much as to reject their money.

[debbierlus]

72. This is the RESCUE of the private insurance system - it is on the verge of collapse

It is on a unsustainable path. They have broken the healthcare system to the point where people can longer afford their product. This plan is a rescue for these parasites. It will extend their time to feed off our health care dollars and continue to deny care for years.

Are we such cowards that we will accept this corporate wetdream because we are terrified that they won't give us anything?

Wtf?

You know what you do. You tell the politicians to stick their corporate health industry bailout where the sun doesn't shine and you protest and demand real reform. You primary those who don't listen.

Liberals are making themselves completely IRRELEVANT by eating shit every single time they serve it up. They kick us in the teeth, and throw in a amendment to deny women's rights while throwing out the progressive amendments in the bill.

What the hell do you think will be gained by supporting bad legislation other then continued bad legislation and policy? After all, what are the consequences? Liberals will toe the line and behave. After all, where yeah gonna go?

It is time to say enough is enough and if this is how you treat the people, the majority, then FUCK YOU. Until we get angry, until we get PISSED and say ENOUGH, it won't end.