good PBS piece on ft hood shooter. helps to refutes all the "his religion had nothing to do with it"

[paulsby]

people...

if some fundamentalist christian wackjob psychiatrist had done crap like this (i love the lecture on the koran to an audience of psychiatrists when he's supposed to be discussing medical topics), nobody would be saying his religion had nothing to do with it.

if he had also reportedly yelled "god is great' while mowing people down...

if had given away bibles to people immediately before going on a killing spree.

etc. etc. etc.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=120162816
ZWERDLING: Earlier today, I spoke to a psychiatrist who worked very closely with Hasan and knows him very well. And he said, you know, from the beginning -and Hasan was there for four years - the medical staff was very worried about this guy. He said the first thing is he's cold, unfriendly. At least that's who he came off. He did not do a good job as a psychiatrist in training, was repeatedly warned, you better shape up, or, you know, you're going to be in trouble. Did badly in his classes, seemed disinterested. But second of all - and this is, perhaps, you know, more relevant. The psychiatrist says that he was very proud and upfront about being Muslim. And psychiatrist hastened to say, and nobody minded that. But he seemed almost belligerent about being Muslim, and he gave a lecture one day that really freaked a lot of doctors out.

They have grand rounds, right? They, you know, dozens of medical staff come into an auditorium, and somebody stands at the podium at the front and gives a lecture about some academic issue, you know, what drugs to prescribe for what condition. But instead of that, he - Hasan apparently gave a long lecture on the Koran and talked about how if you don't believe, you are condemned to hell. Your head is cut off. You're set on fire. Burning oil is burned down your throat.

And I said to the psychiatrist, but this cold be a very interesting informational session, right? Where he's educating everybody about the Koran. He said but what disturbed everybody was that Hasan seemed to believe these things. And actually, a Muslim in the audience, a psychiatrist, raised his hand and said, excuse me. But I'm a Muslim and I do not believe these things in the Koran, and then I don't believe what you say the Koran says. And then Hasan didn't say, well, I'm just giving you one point of view. He basically just stared the guy down.

[martymar64]

1. So is the objective of your post to whip up anti-muslim hatred?

What is your objective?

[paulsby]

2. lol. almost as impressive as the race card.

i'll give it a "2" on the troll-o-meter.

no. my intent is to discuss facts, and to see if all the "religion had nothing to do with it" junior mindreaders have the intellectual honesty (not likely on the internet) to admit the evidence says they are/were wrong.

if i had pointed out that the guy who killed dr. tiller had a religious motive would i be accused by you of trying to whip up anti-christian hatred?

if you say no, then you admit that you have a double standard.

i have no double standard. i'm not going to shy away from the truth, because somebody thinks it might whip up ANYTHING.

people were TOTALLY into discussing his motives, as long as the motive WASn'T religion.

if i shied away from discussing his motives out of fear of whipping up anti-muslim hatred, i would be a coward, and i would be acting paternalistic towards muslims.

CAIR has condemned this guy already, and any right-thinking muslim is doing the same.

what he did is not an indictment of islam. it's an indictment of HIM

just as if some assmunch shoots an abortion provider, it's not an indictment of his religion.

hth

[MrModerate]

4. I agree with much of what you say, although I'd make an exception for . . .

Anyone from Hillsboro Baptist Church. Their cult is definitely owed an indictment.

[paulsby]

7. well, hell ya

that's a totally bizarre hateful church and (as far as i know) every member is a hateful piece o' garbage.

[KamaAina]

58. You mean Westboro, right?

God Hates Phelps!

[Arkana]

69. I believe it's Westboro Baptist Church.

That's where Fred Phelps and his mindslaves are from.

[martymar64]

10. I asked you a simple question and you call me a troll. Real classy.

FWIW, I hold ALL religions in equal contempt. Religion is responsible for causing most wars and misery in this world and we'd be better off as a species without it. But I don't run around trying to make every crime committed by someone that happens to be muslim an example of jihad. If it is religion that was his primary motivation then it is he and he alone that should be punished, not every muslim in this country, just as every crime committed by a christian should lead to the punishment of all christians. But by putting extra emphasis on his religion is only giving encouragement and rationalizations for violent retributions against innocent people.

If you can't answer a simple question without resorting to ad hominems then it renders anything you say not worth listening to.

Good day to you.

[paulsby]

28. asking me if i am trying to

whip up anti-muslim tendency is not a "simple question"

it implies nefarious intent on my part.

thus, it's trollish

a simple question would be "why are you remarking on the idea that his muslim faith played a part" or something like that

hth

[martymar64]

56. Then my apologies

As long as the innocent muslims receive equal protection against violence under the law (something I doubt, given our recent history) then there is no problem.
As long as you're consistent about it when it comes to evil acts committed by christians (Murder of Dr Tiller), jews (war crimes committed against palestinians), cops (the murder of Oscar Grant by a cop in the BART shooting) , our government (Abu Ghraib), etc, then there is no problem.

[paulsby]

88. the point is this

it isn't about crimes committed by christians or muslims or jews.

it is about crimes committed by christians IN THE NAME OF and/or INFLUENCED by christianity, ditto for jews, muslims, atheists, satanists, wiccans, flying spaghetti monster cult, etc.

if joe blow shoots jimmy blown because jimmy steals his parking space, who gives a flying f00k WHAT the guys religion is?

answer: nobody

if joe blow shoots jimmy in the name of (insert religion here) and/or for violating religious precept , etc. that is an entirely different matter

there are multiple points of evidence that provide lots of reasons to believe that hasan's murderous spree was influenced by, and done in the name of islam.

that's highyl relevant. when the seattle jewish center shooting happened, of course it was a question was this politically or religiously motivated. when tiller was shot, ditto.

christians make up the vast majority of this country, and correspondingly commit the majority of crimes.

when a muslim, a christian, an atheist, etc. kills somebody, the religion is only relevant (excuse the tautology) if it's RELEVANT

dats all i'm saying

but i strongly reject the way so many people tiptoe around the obvious radical muslim beliefs/influences in hasan's case, but are vociferous in condemning the radical christian motivated tiller murderer, etc.

that's a double standard. imo, it largely comes from the fact that muslims are a minority. there is a natural tendency to put them in the "victim" class, but to avoid putting them in the offender class. that's a heinous double standard.

it's also phenomenonally patronizing to muslims.

[Fire1]

66. That's true historically in ancient times. Not so in the U.S. n/t

[martymar64]

67. It happens today as well

Religion is what drives the KKK and the militia movements.

The OKC bombing only happened 14 years ago, that is not ancient history. The bombing of abortion clinics and the Atlanta Olympics by Eric Rudolph was religiously motivated and that happened 13 years ago. Religious motivated violence is as American as lynching.

[HughMoran]

77. I think your title has just enough neon light glowing from it

...clearly you were ready with a snarky response based on the fact that you "enhanced" your subject line just enough to attract negative attention. Good for you.

[Syntheto]

9. If, as the post said...

...this guy was a Christian fundamentalist, the story would be completely different, with around the clock coverage and specials on the KKK and race relations in America. From what I've seen here, nobody whines very much in protest against 'whipping up anti-christian sentiment', That's laughable on DU to even suggest that someone is anti-Christian, as the majority regularly post derogatory comments about 'Fundies'. And I'm an atheist to the core. Simply put, this guy's interpretation of the Koran and Islam was part of this, and to ignore that is, well, stupid. How much happier would some people, maybe you, be if this guy had only been named Mike Howard instead of Malik Hasan, and had wanted to off a bunch of Muslims. Instead, you're faced with the fact that this bastard wanted to off a bunch of (presumably Christian) Western soldiers in the name of Islam. Deal with it.

Hey, Fundies mean all of them, Muslim and Christian and Mormon and whatever. When any of them pick up a gun or dynamite in the name of their silly religions, it's time to mow them down.

Imagine no religion; I wonder if you can; nothing to kill or die for; a brotherhood of man.

[martymar64]

12. I'm an atheist as well

I just don't want to encourage a bunch of idiots to use the words here as an excuse to go kill the guy at the gas station or at the store simply because he is a muslim like what happened in the immediate aftermath of 911.

As for the "fact" that he wanted to kill a bunch of christians in the name of islam, are you a mindreader? Have you taken a tour inside of his cranium and read his thoughts? Maybe he did, maybe he didn't. You're the one leaping to the conclusion that it was his only motivation.
That's for the courts to decide, not you. Deal with that.

[paulsby]

15. if you are afraid to discuss facts

because it might "encourage" people or "whip up anti-muslim" sentiment or any such tripe, then you have no respect for the 1st amendment

free speech is dangerous. the truth is dangerous.

would you have been ok with suppressing the abu-graib story because it would "whip up anti-USA sentiment?"

sure, it's true that the fact that the fort hood murderer was pretty obviously influenced by his muslim fatih, and did the killings in the name of islam (see: allahu akbar), might whip up some to increase their anti-muslim fervor.

so the hell WHAT?

truth has a dignity all it's own. if it inspires some people to believe wrong things, that's the way the cookie crumbles. we counter bad speech with good speech. we do not forego discussing sensitive topics because SOME people might use these facts to enhance their own nefarious beliefs.

that holds true for all controversial topics, but i see the same attitude extant among ALLEGED liberals, who truly do not respect free speech and free exchange of ideas. i am reminded of the larry summers flap. inconvenient and all...

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

70. Seems like he's trying to factually represent the evidence.

[arthritisR_US]

71. I think you've missed his/her point. The writer is pointing out that religion

was irrelevant, the man suffered from a persecution complex and he pushed/goaded others to validate his delusion. At least that is what I took from the post.

[MrModerate]

3. The picture that's emerging is that this guy was unfit for duty on several fronts . . .

Why didn't his superiors note this? And why did they keep promoting him?

[paulsby]

5. wasn't he a major?

as i understand it, and i admittedly am no expert on army rank structure, he got a commission as a captain, and was promoted to major, which is probably not surprising for a guy who achieves a psychiatry degree. beyond that, he was never promoted. he got an unfavorable rating at walter reed, so they sent him to hood. he apparently wasn't makin' friends at hood, and who knows if that played a part in their decision to ship him overseas.

i'm not sure if there was evidence that he was unfit for duty. but he was certainly exhibiting odd behavior.

[TicketyBoo]

22. MSNBC

reported that he was just promoted to Major in May and, if I remember correctly, was assigned to Fort Hood in July. So it's no mystery that he hadn't been promoted further, since the promotion to Major was a recent one.

Since Fort Hood processes personnel for overseas duty, chances are he knew that's where he was headed when he was sent to Fort Hood (although that's a bit of speculation on my part; I may have heard that reported, but I don't remember it, specifically, if I did).

IF he was yelling "Allah akbar" while he was killing people, I don't see how anyone can believe that there was not religious motivation. From what we have learned about him from others, even before this illuminating NPR piece, the fact that he couldn't find a wife because he wouldn't accept one who refused to wear a hijab and other such things related by acquaintances of the man, pointed to religious zealotry.

Do I wish it had been someone named "Mike Howard"? Yep, I do. If it had to happen, I wish it had been some non-Arabic nutcase because Muslims already bear a burden of suspicion and discrimination after 9/11. This man didn't do his cause any good. He has poured fuel on the fire, and I'm really sorry about that, along with being devastated about the people who died because someone didn't just shoot himself in the foot to get out of the deployment.

[paulsby]

25. i can agree with all that

except the thing about wishing it had been someone named mike howard.

i'm not going to favor one race, ethnicity, or religion above the other, when it comes to who flips out and goes on a murderous rampage.

what i found interesting was that NUMEROUS people predicted "tea bagger" or "PTSD" and nobody predicted muslim fanatic.

i didn't make any prediction, i just find the disparity kind of typical, evidenced here by the a priori predictions.

[TicketyBoo]

26. I was just saying that

my heart sank when I heard the Arabic-sounding name because Muslims are already so maligned and discriminated against since 9/11. I just hated for it to be more fuel poured on that particular fire.

[paulsby]

27. i completely understand

i just don't agree. but considering i agreed with every other thing you said, that's a clear sign you are wicked smaht :)

[vadawg]

6. maybe some of the reactions we saw here to him explain why they were scared to do anything

imagine if they had removed him, they would be getting lambasted and sued to hell and back, sometimes the PC shit really does get people killed..

[paulsby]

8. oh yea

that's certainly a consideration.

according to family members, he was very vocal about being harassed because of his religion

now that we know much more of the story (like the stuff in the PBS article), it's more likely than not, imo, that he was the one who was proselytizing and talking smack about his religion making others feel uncomfortable. this guy passed out copies of the koran to people immediately before his rampage started.

maybe i'm a bit cynical here, but i think there's a chance the reason they were shipping him out is they didn't want him in the public eye as a representative of the army, and they wanted to ship their "problem child" where they could have a larger hand in controlling his behavior and he would be isolated.

i've seen that happen in the police dept. wouldn't surprise me if the army does the same thing. "problem child?" ship him elsewhere, so he's somebody else's problem, or put him where he can do the least harm.

[EFerrari]

24. Oh, brother. If you're scared of your command, you need a different job. n/t

[vadawg]

30. never said they were scared of their command, commenting that in all walks of life people are scared

to offend anyone lest they be sued for racism or bogotry etc etc. its real common out there and command structures and corporate are aware of it....

[EFerrari]

37. Okay. There's two separate issues there, though.

There's the social part where it's not a bad thing to be a little more aware of how we interact with other people, and there's the legal part where Legal doesn't want to shell out liability money in settlements.

[vadawg]

38. yeah but when you have a guy who was doing this shit, then you should have no fear of turning him in

the problem is we are PCing ourselves to death, this guy was bamming up bombers and jihadists and due to the fear od lawsuits etc people are scared to turn him in. Its crazy... Same as the VA Tech shooter all the signs that something was wrong were there but due to liability no one did anything....

[EFerrari]

41. That's right. You should be able to recognize warning signs

and have a clear procedure for dealing with them.

In both of these cases there is another element and that is that no one is really dealing with mental health in this joint except law enforcement and by the time you get the case, it's too late to really mitigate the consequences. That kid at VA Tech was supposed to be getting treatment but nobody followed up, not the clinic and not his family. And where were the people that are supposed to check this doctor? You'd think someone in his position would be required to have welfare checks or whatever they're called now.

[vadawg]

42. yup i see this all the time, people are deathly afraid to get involved in case it backfires on them

these guys seem to have been both showing signs of major issues, VAtech shooter of being disturbed, Fort Hood shooter of being a wannabe martyr, people should not be so scared of lawsuits that they wont call the popo. As i said we are PCing ourselves to death....

[cherokeeprogressive]

76. I think it's more complicated than that. You seem to know a lot about military policy...

Enough to know that making an accusation or having one made against you follows you for the rest of your career.

Sexual harrassment accusations follow servicemembers, both enlisted and commissioned throughout their careers whether the accusation was found to be baseless or not.

Surely, pointing to his actions, and even suggesting that they were religiously motivated could put a glass ceiling above a superior officer's head should they prove groundless.

I wish PC hadn't taken over the military to such an extent, but it has, and it's now cost lives in bunches, right here in the United States.

[EFerrari]

80. Judging from the number of successful rapes in the military

it doesn't really look like anyone is very worried about being "followed" by a fake harassment charge -- although I'm sure that those do happen. People will try to get away with what they can. But PC isn't even close to "taking over" the military judging from all the women soldiers that come home raped by their fellow soldiers:


“Rape in the Ranks: The Enemy Within”

As with suicides, the rate of sexual assaults within the US military now exceeds that of the general population. A Pentagon report earlier this year found one in three female service members are sexually assaulted at least once during their enlistment. Sixty-three percent of nearly 3,000 cases reported last year were rapes or aggravated assaults. Rape in the Ranks: The Enemy Within is a documentary that focuses on the cases of three female service members victimized by rape and other forms of sexual assault. We air excerpts of the film and speak to filmmaker Pascale Bourgaux.

http://www.democracynow.org/2009/10/27/filmmaker_pascale_bourgaux_on_rape_in


And this man's problem wasn't his religion, it was his psychosis. The group he worked in should have pegged it. That they didn't shows you how hollowed out our armed forces really are.

This isn't about political correctness. If it were, all those instances of him being harassed or his property being vandalized wouldn't exist to be cited.

This is about how deep in the bowl military mental health care is sitting.

[EFerrari]

23. Thank you. It's so easy to say "he's a Muslin" as if that really tells anything.

I want to know who his superiors were and WHERE they were when they should have been noticing this guy.

[paulsby]

29. except that's not what is being said

it's not that he's just a muslim, or a virginian, or a man, for that matter.

the religion is relevant because there's a metric assload of evidence that it played a significant part

he yelled allahu akbar while mowing down soldiers

he passed out copies of the koran prior to his shooting spree

he proselytized on his twisted interpretation of islam during a psychiatry conference

if some fundamentalist christian had done those things (substitute bible for koran and "jesus is great" for "allahu akbar"), NOBODY would be denying the relevance of his religion.

if you doubt that look at threads on christian wackos who shoot abortion providers.

[EFerrari]

43. The distinction being made is a legitimate one, though.

No one thinks the christian wackos are part of an underground international conspiracy against the United States. After eight years of Junior's fear mongering after 9/11, there are people who fear al Qaida is going to show up on their doorstep.

This doctor was not al Qaida. He seems to have been psychotic and at most, his religion is only relevant because that's the mode in which he acted out. He could have yelled "Charge!" and passed out copies of the Monroe Doctrine if that was his obsession and those people would still be dead.

[paulsby]

65. correct

one can say hasan's religion had a significant influence on his acts, without suggesting that he is part of al qaeda or any other larger nefarious group.

and the salient fact is that he DIDN'T yell out "i'm doing it for virginia" or "i'm doing this for oppressed men" or...

he yelled out allahu akbar, and that, along with NUMEROUS other facts strongly supports the importance of religion in his actions

[mmonk]

11. So are we to pretend religion is all there is to it

and world politics and war does not enter into it?

[cali]

13. no. but religion was a part of it evidently

[paulsby]

31. correct. NOBODY i am aware of said

that this was solely due to his religion.

but, just as in cases where religious wackos gun down dr's who perform abortions, there shouldn't be this hesitation (and in many cases, abject rejection) of religious influence on somebody's evil act just because the person happens to be a minority religion.

that's the point

if you replaced koran with bible, and "jesus rules" with allahu akbar and this guy was proselytizing during the speech period at psychiatric conferences, giving away bibles before he went on a shooting spree, etc. etc. complaining that he was being ridiculed because of his religion, etc. - YES, religion would be discussed as a serious influence

[paulsby]

16. nice strawman

it's dry, and has no relevance whatsoever to the OP.

nice

[Orangeone]

14. You're very biased

Aren't you the one who always says: "Wait till all the facts are in"? Especially if a white cop is accused of something...

[paulsby]

17. no, i don't always say that

for example, when i saw the video of the cop attacking the female auto theft suspect in the holding cell (nationally broadcast and discussed here), i said the facts clearly supported that he was unjustified in his actions. i didn't say i was 100% certain, but i said the video alone clearly supported a conclusion he was unjustified.

many other examples.

so, in brief. your premise is false.

hth

[slampoet]

18. Amen. +1

[paulsby]

32. it's a false statement, evident by example

for example, in the case of the white cop (like race had anything to do with it) beating the car theft suspect girl in the holding cell, i said the evidence was that the guy clearly used excessive force.

sorry, but this one counterexample, and there are others, proves that this pat little lie is just that

a lie

hth

[cali]

21. Enough of the facts are in to conclude that religion figured in his

thinking. I wish it weren't so, but it is.

[Sezu]

19. Occams razor.

The guy shouted a terrorist phrase and then did what he set out to do; kill others because he thought it was ok to do so via the reports we have seen surfacing. So yes, HIS VERSION of his religion had LOTS to do with it. The other stuff is just details of how he worked himself up to that point.

[Therellas]

34. God=Crazy?

its all i could think of.
that.. and "no one can hear you scream in space".

[Beaverhausen]

59. he shouted a "terrorist phrase?" Oh really?

[Douglas Carpenter]

78. describing the phrase, "God is Great" which is included in the opening

of almost all Islamic prayers, as "a terrorist phrase" is kind of a dead give-away of where someone is coming from.

Some people are such blind racist and bigots that they don't even realize how comically obvious they are.

[Beacho]

20. Religion was the funnel for his psychotic break

And it expressed itself through his personal value system. The guy was listening to 'confessions' when he was counseling returnees for six years. I think being exposed to that had more to do with this sad occurrence than anything else.

So yes, in a circumstantial way his religious beliefs had something to do with this, but no more than any other killing spree murderers or their backgrounds and beliefs. His religion had to do with it as much as the Goth Scene was responsible for Columbine.

[paulsby]

33. bull

it was not a "circumstantial way" and if this guy was a christo-lunatic gunning down abortion doctors, you wouldn't be saying this.

for pete's fucking sake, he was even posting on the internet in defense of SUICIDE BOMBERS.

the double standard myopia is astounding

[Beacho]

57. Yes it was circumstamtial

Proof being that others have committed similar acts and were not of the Muslim faith and there are millions who have the same faith and don't go on shooting sprees. As for his remarks on forums I would say that was a symptom of his impending psychotic break.

As for anti-choicers, the same applies. The majority of the killers are Christian, but the majority of Christians don't shoot abortion doctors. In fact there are a lot Christians that are pro-choice.

That's what makes the religious beliefs of the perpetrators in both these cases circumstantial. But don't let logic interfere with your "ZOMG!11!! Boogie Muslims! bashing fest. The only one who has myopia is you because you are trying so hard to make this about Islam that you ignore other data because it interferes with your pet peeve.

For the record, I have argued that a person's religious beliefs(Christian, Muslim, what ever) in and of themselves are not the whole of the cause of these incidents. So don't go accusing me of having a double standard, thank you very much

[paulsby]

64. you are missing the point

of course the majority of christian don't bomb clinics.

the ones who do use a specific twisted subset of christianity, which is my point. just as hasan did vis a vis islam.
in neither case, is it circumstantial

and in neither case does it mean that garden variety christians or muslims are to blame.

but hasan's religion was a significant factor, hardly circumstantial

that doesn't mean his (twisted) version of islam applies to others. in most cases, it doesn't.

[bikingaz]

72. the double standard against your statement is appalling

it is amazing how much people are willing to rationalize facts away to fit their preconceived notions

[paulsby]

73. i noticed that too.

spittin in the wind and all

[Snazzy]

35. "i love the lecture on the koran to an audience of psychiatrists..."

Full OP quote: "(i love the lecture on the koran to an audience of psychiatrists when he's supposed to be discussing medical topics)"

Try "psychiatric" topics instead of "medical."

Personally, I'd like to hear the perspective of a Muslim psychiatrist who treats PTSD speak to our wars and what he or she is seeing. I'd imagine military shrinks and even intel and command types would be or should be interested too, considering our mighty GWOT.

[vadawg]

36. i guess it would depend if they would give a clinical briefing

or if it would end up as a discussion of the best ways to behead an unbeliever, or the best fashion styles for a suicide bomber. Seems the gunman went for the later topics...

[Snazzy]

39. would have to be there or know more than

having anonymous shrink--source of this--gives me:

ZWERDLING: Earlier today, I spoke to a psychiatrist who worked very closely with Hasan and knows him very well. And he said, you know, from the beginning -and Hasan was there for four years - the medical staff was very worried about this guy. He said the first thing is he's cold, unfriendly. At least that's who he came off. He did not do a good job as a psychiatrist in training, was repeatedly warned, you better shape up, or, you know, you're going to be in trouble. Did badly in his classes, seemed disinterested. But second of all - and this is, perhaps, you know, more relevant. The psychiatrist says that he was very proud and upfront about being Muslim. And psychiatrist hastened to say, and nobody minded that. But he seemed almost belligerent about being Muslim, and he gave a lecture one day that really freaked a lot of doctors out.

They have grand rounds, right? They, you know, dozens of medical staff come into an auditorium, and somebody stands at the podium at the front and gives a lecture about some academic issue, you know, what drugs to prescribe for what condition. But instead of that, he - Hasan apparently gave a long lecture on the Koran and talked about how if you don't believe, you are condemned to hell. Your head is cut off. You're set on fire. Burning oil is burned down your throat.

And I said to the psychiatrist, but this cold be a very interesting informational session, right? Where he's educating everybody about the Koran. He said but what disturbed everybody was that Hasan seemed to believe these things. And actually, a Muslim in the audience, a psychiatrist, raised his hand and said, excuse me. But I'm a Muslim and I do not believe these things in the Koran, and then I don't believe what you say the Koran says. And then Hasan didn't say, well, I'm just giving you one point of view. He basically just stared the guy down.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=120162816

Sounds scary certainly, but that's the point isn't it.

[vadawg]

40. anonymous nothing, on the local radio stations in the DC area there have been guys who worked with

him coming on, the retired ones even giving their names and saying that he was doing this shit, i dont think this is all coming from one source anymore....

[Snazzy]

45. strikes me as hindsight 20/20 cherry picking

The room full of Walter Reed psychiatrists missed these warning signs then? Isn't that part of their job description, yet they took no action? Nothing to CoC? No one maybe asked him to speak on the Koran, given relatively unique perspective? Lot of questions about this one factoid come to mind.

I haven't heard DC radio. Don't see anything easy to find on google. Anyway, never met or heard about a shrink who wasn't all screwed up (though non-homicidal). Point is that there is some place where we can get past anecdotes, haven't hit that yet on this factoid.

[vadawg]

46. its not anecdotes, its witness statements, you can bet the investigators will be looking at this

not sure what you are trying to say, as it seems that the feds were already looking at him for about 6 months. The guy obviously had issues and was on the road to martyrdom, he just chose to use guns rather than to blew himself up in a crowded mall...

[Snazzy]

47. the OP insinuates, hell states, it's a religiously motivated attack

The evidence for that is this factoid, that he gave a lecture to psychiatrists about the Koran and it was anecdotally SCARY.

What we actually want to know, if we aren't to become like right-wing blowhards and xenophobes, is if it (edit: the attack) was ideologically motivated, and an act of terrorism (organized or sympathetic), or was he just "crazy."

That is my best attempt to clarify, it's late. As you say, feds looking at it, and had been (and failed apparently), so that's good. In mean time, facts, not stuff that feeds us vs. them mentality, would be the rational approach.

[vadawg]

48. nah if you look at the other stuff, the shouts as he shot the soldiers

the trying to convert injured soldiers at reed, conversations he had with other people at reed, you start to see a pattern. Now whether he was fucking nuts before and just fixated on islam or whether it was his beliefs that made him into a jihadi we wont know until the evidence is done, but i think the OP was getting at the fact that so many people are trying so hard to make it that it wasnt religious motivated without the facts when if you look at what we are hearing, especailly out of MD/VA it seems that theres a good chance that for him at least it was....

[Snazzy]

49. was religion part of his crazy?

Sure, no problems there. But the xenophobe type meme is that Islam itself motivates violence. The two are not the same. Nowadays we are back to doing nuance right? Saying he was "religiously motivated" implies that his faith made him kill. That's the low attention span, soundbite take. But that's not what you mean unless you mean to be the xenophobe and indict the religion.

Personally I want to know if he was a terrorist. It's not that naive a question really, though I'm certain the one person who doesn't know the answer is Joe Lieberman. He should wait for facts too.

[vadawg]

50. you do know that there are people who are religiously motivated to kill

this is the problem we have with the PC stuff, you in your post say that to even think this means that your a xenophobe, low attention span etc etc, this is what im talking about when people try to walk away from what could very well be the primary cause just because they are scared of being called a bigot.

[Snazzy]

51. No I don't

I'd imagine on the one hand that means "god told me to do it" (substitute Allah if you must).

On the other a religious text or a preacher of some sort did.

In the first case I'd say that person was imbalanced.

In the second, I'd say it doesn't happen except in some very extremist oddball religions or interpretations--in modern times mind you.

Do both the Bible and the Koran suggest killing people in a wide variety of circumstances? Hell yeah. Are these killings a good plan, not crazy, and a modern interpretation of God's dictates accepted by the vast majority of the world's population and religious authorities? Hell no.

It's the crazy or the extremism that matters.

[vadawg]

52. dude you dont understand other cultures do you, not everyone thinks like an american

an example is that i would kill without issue to protect my family, i know people who would kill without issue to protect their belief system, are either of us crazy, no we both are protecting something that we believe is worthwhile. An american soldier will kill to defend his country, a jihadist will kill to protect the umma. different people have different things they are willing to die for.. or to kill for

[Snazzy]

54. That is part of your belief system

I.e.: "Protect the family is a cause worth dying for."

Don't conflate religious belief with a personal belief system; religion, if you got some, is part of a person's belief system. Yeah nuance.

Look, far be it for me to defend religion with the icon of the FSM next to my name (my belief system begins and nearly ends with "don't call me dude."). I just find it more important to find facts than paint Islam as a condition that causes people to kill US servicemen.

Extremist ideology or just crazy or both, and I'm out.

[paulsby]

86. cognitive dissonance 101

thanks for the example

or were you serious?

[paulsby]

85. i would too

as opposed to a lecture on the koran

[stlsaxman]

44. Yeah i heard this and it was NOT on PBS like you repeatedly state...

it was on NPR... there's a big difference- one is "radio" and one is "television".

Figure it out.

[KamaAina]

60. There's an even bigger difference

PBS broadcasts actual journalism from time to time. NPR has for some years now been part of the right-wing noise machine (Mara LIEasson plied her trade there for years before finally coming home to Faux).

[olegramps]

53. So much for the value of psychiatry.

A room full of psychiatrists listen to him rank and rave and they didn't realize he was a dangerous threat and needed help.

[AngryAmish]

55. Bush is guilty of these murders

If a guy is a devout Muslim, is known to making pro-jihad postings on web sites, was opposed to doing his duty and goes around shooting thirty soldiers while shouting "Allah Akbar" then it is clear that Bush drove him to this.

[Blue_Tires]

61. so he sends out THAT many red flags, warnings and signs

and was supposedly not very good at his job, told everyone he wanted out, and was still in the army as a major??


sigh...if only he started making gay passes to his superiors...

[EFerrari]

79. Or wore a political tee shirt.

[robdogbucky]

62. That is too funny

Blue Tire,

"sigh...if only he started making gay passes to his superiors..."

How true. And how true we forget what a shitstorm we have created.

In the middle east we have created flypaper for the lords of the flies.

Really, I am surprised there is not more of what we saw happening.

Religion also plays a part in our end, from the robdogbucky archives, don't forget:


Chirac: Bush Said Invasion Of Iraq Was Biblical Mission To Stop Armageddon!

http://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php?section=library&page=haught_29_5

A French Revelation, or The Burning Bush
JAMES A. HAUGHT

Incredibly, President George W. Bush told French President Jacques Chirac in early 2003 that Iraq must be invaded to thwart Gog and Magog, the Bible’s satanic agents of the Apocalypse.

Honest. This isn’t a joke. The president of the United States, in a top-secret phone call to a major European ally, asked for French troops to join American soldiers in attacking Iraq as a mission from God.

Now out of office, Chirac recounts that the American leader appealed to their “common faith” (Christianity) and told him: “Gog and Magog are at work in the Middle East…. The biblical prophecies are being fulfilled…. This confrontation is willed by God, who wants to use this conflict to erase his people’s enemies before a New Age begins.”

This bizarre episode occurred while the White House was assembling its “coalition of the willing” to unleash the Iraq invasion. Chirac says he was boggled by Bush’s call and “wondered how someone could be so superficial and fanatical in their beliefs.”



"Theology Of War" - taught at US basic training

http://www.talk2action.org/story/2007/12/29/112325/12/D...

Fundamentalist Ministries At US Basic Training Facilities Promote "Theology Of War"

As detailed in recent reportsfrom the Military Religious Freedom Foundation (MRFF), a 501c(3) nonprofit organization which fights for freedom of religious and philosophical belief in the US military, fundamentalist Christian ministries promoting what can be described as a "theology of war" have increasingly been invited onto US military basic training facilities such as Fort Jackson in South Carolina, and Fort Sam Houston and Lackland Air Force Base (both based in Texas), with the apparent endorsement of commanders at those bases.

The most prominent of these ministries is the `Military Ministry' of the immense, 1/2 billion dollar a year Campus Crusade For Christ, a global nonprofit evangelical organization founded in 1951 with the financial help of key John Birch Society funder Nelson Bunker Hunt. In the 1970s Campus Crusade's founder evangelist Bill Bright, whose political views have almost totally escaped media scrutiny called his group a "conspiracy to overthrow the world", and a 1998 book Bright co-authored declared the Theory Of Evolution to be a fraud. Bright was one of the signatories of an October 2002 letter sent to President George W. Bush, along with Richard Land of the Southern Baptist Convention, Chuck Colson, D James Kennedy, and others, asserting that the Bush Administration's intended war with Iraq would fall under traditional Christian "just war" theory.

Materials discovered by the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, on the web site of Campus Crusade's Military Ministry at Fort Jackson, include pictures of US soldiers-in-training holding both assault rifles and Bibles (provided by Campus Crusade), and a promotional flier for the Ft. Jackson ministry's Bible study course, entitled "God's Basic Training", features a drawing of a Roman Legionnaire holding a sword and a shield emblazoned with a Christian cross. Frank Bussey, director of Military Ministry at Fort Jackson, has reportedly told soldiers at the base that "government authorities, police and the military = God's Ministers."


Just my dos centavos

robdogbucky

[robdogbucky]

63. Or if we look at the emerging history

In re:

"people...

if some fundamentalist christian wackjob psychiatrist had done crap like this (i love the lecture on the koran to an audience of psychiatrists when he's supposed to be discussing medical topics), nobody would be saying his religion had nothing to do with it.

if he had also reportedly yelled "god is great' while mowing people down...

if had given away bibles to people immediately before going on a killing spree.

etc. etc. etc."


We learn this was a Palestinian American, conflicted no doubt from his several years' work with the returning vets, who might, just might I say, without really knowing for sure, but only speculating mind you, that they might, from time to time mind you, project some little teensy-weensy hostility to an Arabic shrink in uniform trying to treat them for their PTSD. I can understand how he would grow some resentment over time about the US mission in these far off Arab lands. His ancestral land. This does not excuse what he did, but how much can any human take when they see the persecution of their own kind at the hands of returning soldiers that no doubt are relatively screweed up themselves? He will no doubt pay the ultimate price for his act of wanton violence. In the era of cover bans, transfer tubes and collateral damage. War is peace, up is down, wrong is right.

Think of the cumulative effect of civilian casualties and all on his psyche over time:



September 2007 – More than 1,000,000 Iraqis murdered

“…Detailed analysis (which is available on our website) indicates that almost one in two households in Baghdad have lost a family member, significantly higher than in any other area of the country. The governorates of Diyala (42%) and Ninewa (35%) were next.

The poll also questioned the surviving relatives on the method in which their loved ones were killed. It reveals that 48% died from a gunshot wound, 20% from the impact of a car bomb, 9% from aerial bombardment, 6% as a result of an accident and 6% from another blast/ordnance. This is significant because more often that not it is car bombs and aerial bombardments that make the news – with gunshots rarely in the headlines.

As well as a murder rate that now exceeds the Rwanda genocide from 1994 (800,000 murdered), not only have more than one million been injured but our poll calculates that of the millions of Iraqis that have fled their neighbourhoods, 52% have moved within Iraq but 48% have crossed its borders, with Syria taking the bulk of refugees…”
http://www.opinion.co.uk/Newsroom_details.aspx?NewsId=78

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/07/27/AR2009072702331.html

Crime Rate of Veterans in Colo. Unit Cited

“Soldiers returning from Iraq after serving with a Fort Carson, Colo., combat brigade have exhibited an exceptionally high rate of criminal behavior in their home towns, carrying out a string of killings and other offenses that the ex-soldiers attribute to lax discipline and episodes of indiscriminate killing during their grueling deployment, according to a six-month investigation by the Colorado Springs Gazette newspaper…”
“…During their deployment, some soldiers killed civilians at random -- in some cases at point-blank range -- used banned stun guns on captives, pushed people off bridges, loaded weapons with illegal hollow-point bullets, abused drugs and occasionally mutilated the bodies of Iraqis, according to accounts the Gazette attributed to soldiers who said they witnessed the events. The unit's casualty rate was double the average for Army combat teams deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan, the paper said…”


http://web.mit.edu/humancostiraq/

Bringing the war home: reports of soldiers' violence

The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have exacted a toll on U.S. soldiers and their families and communities, as this recent investigation in Colorado illustrates. "Slaughter became a part of life," the report by Dave Phillips explains. "Discipline deteriorated. Soldiers say the torture and killing of Iraqi civilians lurked in the ranks. And when these soldiers came home to Colorado Springs suffering the emotional wounds of combat, soldiers say, some were ignored, some were neglected, some were thrown away and some were punished. Some kept killing — this time in Colorado Springs." Read the second part of the story. The concern among health professions about post traumatic stress disorder has grown, particularly as the suicide rate among Iraq veterans has also grown. See this medical analysis. And this report from the New York Times (August 2, 2009), which notes that the suicide rate among Iraq veterans is the highest for the army since records began to be kept.


What a clusterfuck we have created.

More centavos

robdogbucky

[NashVegas]

68. Yep. Religion Had Everything To Do With This; An Immoral War Played No Role or Conflict With Moral .

Values, which religion attempts to instill, although often its adherents get it wrong.

[spanone]

74. i heard a disturbingly biased report on npr this am...on the same subject

[Kievan Rus]

75. I agree. There are crazy fundies in every religion.

[Name removed]

81. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Forkboy]

83. You lost me with "Christopher Hitchens is exactly correct".

[JustinL]

84. how do you propose to carry out this wholesale eradication? n/t

[AntiFascist]

82. So what is the solution then?

Kill all of the radical Muslims and you've solved the problem? Wage war on all of the Muslim nations and overthrow their governments? I think we're finding that this approach has bankrupted our own nation and generated even more radical Muslims. What a great way to get us to defeat ourselves.

[Douglas Carpenter]

87. statement from CAIR (Council on American Islamic Relations) regarding Fort Hood

U.S. Muslims Condemn Attack at Fort Hood

Posted 11/5/2009 6:15:00 PM

(WASHINGTON, D.C., 11/5/09) - A prominent national Muslim civil rights and advocacy group tonight condemned an attack on Fort Hood military base in Texas that left at least 12 people dead.

In a statement, the Washington-based Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) said:

“We condemn this cowardly attack in the strongest terms possible and ask that the perpetrators be punished to the full extent of the law. No religious or political ideology could ever justify or excuse such wanton and indiscriminate violence. The attack was particularly heinous in that it targeted the all-volunteer army that protects our nation. American Muslims stand with our fellow citizens in offering both prayers for the victims and sincere condolences to the families of those killed or injured.”

Along with innumerable condemnations of terror, CAIR has in the past launched an online anti-terror petition drive called “Not in the Name of Islam,” initiated a television public service announcement (PSA) campaign against religious extremism and coordinated a “fatwa,” or Islamic religious ruling, against terrorism and extremism.

watch this 2 minute youtube video:

Muslim group reaches out to Ft. Hood families
-
The Islamic Society of North America has set up a fund for the families of the Fort Hood victims.

link:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x400910

AND

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6UuT4WR9VU